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Egos and Icons, and the departure of Curt.
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Partner amber


Feb 18, 2005, 4:37 PM
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It seems to me like the site should be more willing to just answer questions honestly so that people dont have to speculate.


elvislegs


Feb 18, 2005, 4:49 PM
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Re: Egos and Icons, and the departure of Curt. [In reply to]
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seriously tho.

BUY HONDA! :D


jt512


Feb 18, 2005, 4:50 PM
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Re: Egos and Icons, and the departure of Curt. [In reply to]
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:

My beef isnt about Curt's decision to leave so much as it's about rc.com tarpitting a user because an advertiser got pissed about what the user had to say about the advertiser's product.

Then you have no beef because that is not why he was tarpitted.

-Jay

Then perhaps management should organize a better response and stop being so damned secretive about everything.

Maybe they should, but that doesn't justify what you did. This rumor about Curt's having been tarpitted because he offended an advertiser was invented by you in the following quoted post.

In reply to:
In reply to:
What they were thinking was *probably* something like this:

"Oh, wow.... Curt's comments to this other user are way out of line, and they violate the TOS. Curt has been warned before about this sort of thing, yet he's still doing it. I'll consult with the other mods, ask them for input, and then decide on an appropriate action. In the meantime, I'll ask Curt to refrain from making such offensive and inappropriate posts."

Or something like that.

Actually, from reading between the lines, it was probably something closer to, "Oh Shit. Curt has pissed off (insert advertiser name). Christ, what am I going to do. We need to shut him up - quick! Wait. I'll post in M&E asking for support in tarpitting him and then send him a warning."

-Jay


reno


Feb 18, 2005, 4:56 PM
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Re: Egos and Icons, and the departure of Curt. [In reply to]
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In reply to:
f---, I'm just pissed that Curt got chased away. He's a thick-skinned guy, who took more insults than most. He doesn't run easy. It smells like something's rotten in Denmark.

Yanqui:

I'm sorry, just like you are, that Curt has decided to no longer post here on RC.com.

Again, however, this was HIS decision. He was not forced out. He was not pushed out. He was not banned. He was not chased away.

He was asked to follow the TOS.

We let a LOT of things people say slide by, as it really isn't our place to tell people what they can and can not say. But we do have some standards of decency and expectations of behavior.

Think of it like this: Say you have Cancer. I make a snide remark to you during a discussion that "Why the f--k should I care about your opinion? You're gonna be worm shit in 6 months, you cancerous scum."

Would you consider that to be in good taste? Would you support and visit a website that allows such behavior?

I met Curt last September in Flag, and shared a pint of Whisky with the guy. He's a nice chap, really, from my limited time talking to him. And I think he has a TON of good stuff to offer the new climbers that frequent this website.

But just like other users in the past, one's contributions can not override one's errors. Dingus mentioned this a few pages back, and I think those words are very insightful.

Short version: Curt made a mistake. We called him on it. He left because of that.

What's so hard to understand?


caughtinside


Feb 18, 2005, 5:02 PM
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Re: Egos and Icons, and the departure of Curt. [In reply to]
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Reno,

Just come out and admit that you tarpitted and banned curt. We all know you did it.



























HAHAHAHA :lol:


Partner happiegrrrl


Feb 18, 2005, 6:35 PM
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^ Hey! I already outright asked him, and he flat-out denied it.

Anyway - if you want to ask Curt anything, he left his email in that other thread.

And....he stopped in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tar-Pitted/

Looks like we're getting quite a little group fo malcontents. Why don't you all stop in and say hi to him, and wish him well, tell him you wish he'd go to hell, or whatever else you'd like to say.


Maybe we can get him to fill us in on what happened, anyway. I would like to know which vendor (it has to be that stupid climbing wall....) thinks they can tell a resource to censor it's clientele.


Happy weekend!


Partner amber


Feb 18, 2005, 6:36 PM
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Re: Egos and Icons, and the departure of Curt. [In reply to]
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In reply to:
This rumor about Curt's having been tarpitted because he offended an advertiser was invented by you in the following quoted post.

In reply to:
In reply to:
What they were thinking was *probably* something like this:

"Oh, wow.... Curt's comments to this other user are way out of line, and they violate the TOS. Curt has been warned before about this sort of thing, yet he's still doing it. I'll consult with the other mods, ask them for input, and then decide on an appropriate action. In the meantime, I'll ask Curt to refrain from making such offensive and inappropriate posts."

Or something like that.

Actually, from reading between the lines, it was probably something closer to, "Oh s---. Curt has pissed off (insert advertiser name). Christ, what am I going to do. We need to shut him up - quick! Wait. I'll post in M&E asking for support in tarpitting him and then send him a warning."

-Jay

Forgive me for putting two and two together. Let me break it down for you. First, we're told that Curt was tarpitted for being offensive towards a 'user'. Nevermind the fact that a moderator is allowed to make personal digs towards a user who isnt here, mostly because I doubt much will be done about it. Yay nepotism.


In reply to:
Personally, I wouldn't feel bad that someone got his knickers in a twist and left the site because he was asked to display some civility and refrain from unacceptable behavior. Curt left because he was asked to not do something offensive. What does that tell you about the quality of him as a person?

Next, the plot thickens when we're told that we cant SEE the thread where the alleged offense happened to make an informed opinion for ourselves because it's been removed from view because it contains remarks that are potentially damaging to a business partnership that rc.com is pursuing.

In reply to:
We can't. The post was removed. Yep. The entire post is archived because there was content in it that did more than just violate the TOS (content which was not Curt's), it offended some potential business partners.

So, when I question the ethics of allowing advertisers to influence content in a content-driven medium, it's reinforced that the issue at hand is related to a business deal.

In reply to:
I also wish to cultivate good business relations with the mags and other climbing related companies so that you the users can continue to enjoy a "free" site.

Then, the bomb is dropped that Curt apparently got into it with Matt Samet at R&I.

In reply to:
I guess the other question is did Samet get tarpitted? I never did see the "over the top" post, as the whole thing was being edited wildly on the spot. It was clear from what I did see that Samet wasn't blameless in the whole thing. In fact, AFAIK, he started it, although I'm not sure that matters too much unless you are on the playground or in a gun fight.

I have to speculate that the thread was removed as much as to protect Samet himself as to protect the "business relationship". The dude acted like a freaking child, and anonymously as well ( at least at first ).

Now, I distinctly remember having a R&I forum in the past, which was eventually removed because R&I didnt appreciate popular opinion of the mag amongst usership. Based on that fact, I have assumed (that's right, assumed, and will continue to do so until facts explaining otherwise are laid on the table) that something unfavorable was said about R&I, so R&I got pissed, and Curt was subsequently hushed.

Moreover, it is my belief that if the user that Curt was offending had been a plain ol user instead of a valued member of R&I, our inferred potential business partner who was so offended that the thread was removed for fear of potential legal action, as inferred by Phil here:

In reply to:
if a post contained potentially libellous material that could take the site down by way of legal avenues then I certianly want to yank that sort of post or thread.

then the response to Curt probably wouldnt have been as strong. But, again, we're not allowed access to the thread so we cant make informed opinions about how 'over-the-top' Curt was or was not. We very simply want a decent explanation as to why a mainstay member of our community was disciplined instead of half-assed excuses that dont make any sense -


In reply to:
to end the speculation about what happened, why doesn't someone just post the details of the thread in question.. i guess it was removed and i can't find that archive forum that used to exist. maybe i'm overlooking something...


In reply to:
Amber's play-by-play seems the most likely at this point.

From the drama sidelines, the fact that the mod who tarpitted Curt hasn't named themselves only adds to the "conspiracy" hogs. You ( the staff ) bring this shit on yourselves half the time.

I'm also not the only one who thinks it's lame that we should be expected to sit quiet and look pretty instead of asking questions when a valued member of the community is hushed. I'm just the only one sitting at home drinking beer and surfing rc.com right now.

In reply to:
well i'd like to find out what the hell they were thinking and how they arrived at this decision. to tarpit someone who was in the process of organizing (and doing the bulk of the leg work) for the protection of queen creek, and communicating abundantly through this site is absolutely foolish... from a CLIMBER'S perspective, at least, which seems to be a perspective this website desperately lacks.... so in short it matters because i want to learn more about the situation.

And, last by not least, a stunning piece of advice by tradman

In reply to:
Serious commerical sites take their responsibilities seriously. That means if there is a disciplinary procedure, it is fair and transparent to everyone. Side-stepping the issue of exactly who tarpitted who and what the comments were that led to it breeds exactly the culture we have here

So, in short, if it wasnt about nepotism towards advertisers, then what really happened?

On a final note, my comments have apparently had quite the stinging affect on some of our upstanding staff members. I received a phone call today from a person who I trust and respect and have been more or less asked to refrain from further prying. I feel satisfied with the conversation and am dropping it, sorta, but IMHO, it would save management a shit load of time and effort if they would just be forthright instead of playing high schoolish secrecy games when it comes to managing the site.


Partner one900johnnyk


Feb 18, 2005, 6:38 PM
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^ Hey! I already outright asked him, and he flat-out denied it.

Anyway - if you want to ask Curt anything, he left his email in that other thread.

And....he stopped in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tar-Pitted/

Looks like we're getting quite a little group fo malcontents. Why don't you all stop in and say hi to him, and wish him well, tell him you wish he'd go to hell, or whatever else you'd like to say.


Maybe we can get him to fill us in on what happened, anyway. I would like to know which vendor (it has to be that stupid climbing wall....) thinks they can tell a resource to censor it's clientele.


Happy weekend!
my sense was that it had to do w/rock and ice, presumably from that rock and ice v. climbing thread that i did not click on for lack of interest....

ps he didn't just have a closer relative die or something, he just stopped posting here.... hahah


dirtineye


Feb 18, 2005, 6:41 PM
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Anyway - if you want to ask Curt anything, he left his email in that other thread.

And....he stopped in at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tar-Pitted/

Looks like we're getting quite a little group fo malcontents. Why don't you all stop in and say hi to him, and wish him well, tell him you wish he'd go to hell, or whatever else you'd like to say.

Man, that place reeks of Ego and Eccentricity. Hey isn't that a Jane Austin novel? Have not heard from you all day Snippie, you pissed at me too? Everyone else here is, even good old BLownoutbuttplug don't like me anymore.

Well, at least you are getting a good party invite list. I'd love to see all the folks you have over at your little messages group together again for the first time.

Interesting group, now what you going to do with it?

I KNOW!!! MODERATE THE PISS OUT OF EM!!!!! ROTFLMAO!


murf


Feb 18, 2005, 6:42 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Then perhaps management should organize a better response and stop being so damned secretive about everything.

Maybe they should, but that doesn't justify what you did. This rumor about Curt's having been tarpitted because he offended an advertiser was invented by you in the following quoted post.

-Jay

It was obvious that Curt had his panties in a twist. Jesus, he went after one of his "site buddies" pretty hard in the same thread. Samet was no better, and you'd think he would know better. After all, he actually *is* a representitive of a climbing business entity.

Is Curt a whiny bitch for leaving? He knows, some care, but as always the drama meter goes to eleven. I'm almost convinced that some marketing guru is working this shit up in some hyper-creativity session.

"How can we work the populace up today?"

I mean , Tim already replied with his full reply which ( as per script ) applies technology to the conspiracy ( in S&Q ). epic_ed has tried to deflect the spew. Dingus argues the purity of ones own words. You flip flop a bit... Am I the only one who thinks that's amusing? After all, I'd bet going to New Jack that you for one know the whole story.

I know you'll probably come after me a bit for that last bit with your usual verve....But come on, the drama is completely caused once again by the rc.com "closed door" discussion. The tarpitting person should take his knocks, and maybe the rule should be "he who tarpits is known".

Murf

( Yes I'm still at work, and I'm pissed. )


Partner happiegrrrl


Feb 18, 2005, 6:59 PM
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Man, that place reeks of Ego and Eccentricity. Hey isn't that a Jane Austin novel? Have not heard from you all day Snippie, you pissed at me too? Everyone else here is, even good old BLownoutbuttplug don't like me anymore.

No...I had to work.....

In reply to:
Well, at least you are getting a good party invite list. I'd love to see all the folks you have over at your little messages group together again for the first time.

True that. Though I'd like to see some of the lurkers whip out something textual.

In reply to:
Interesting group, now what you going to do with it?

I KNOW!!! MODERATE THE PISS OUT OF EM!!!!! ROTFLMAO!

I am like the amber waves of grain, or the fruited plain or whatever....things in my life just seem to develop of their own accord. I don't really think much about it, except for basic plans.

But as for moderation; that is actually one thing I DID think about. While I understand where some sites feel the need to moderate (after all, there are children hitting this place, which would be MY primary concern, though it doesn't seem to be much of one here), I think it would be a very interesting exeperiment to see what would evolve out of zero moderation. I have a lot of experience in issues of codependace, so I know there are tools I can employ to keep my mitts off. Mainly...to understand the thing isn't about me, or my ego. I, as the manager of that site, should be invisible.

And....if it does get to the point where maybe it should get a little different face, then it should be set up as a non-profit entity, instead of looking to be a commercial enterprise.


murf


Feb 18, 2005, 7:01 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
if a post contained potentially libellous material that could take the site down by way of legal avenues then I certianly want to yank that sort of post or thread.

then the response to Curt probably wouldnt have been as strong. But, again, we're not allowed access to the thread so we cant make informed opinions about how 'over-the-top' Curt was or was not. We very simply want a decent explanation as to why a mainstay member of our community was disciplined instead of half-assed excuses that dont make any sense -

The only libellous material I recallis when Samet wrote about how they could have sued a rc.com poster, but didn't. The Oldtimer's must be setting in, because the specifics elude me.

Murf

( work over, beer now !


reno


Feb 18, 2005, 7:10 PM
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In reply to:
....

Worthless drivel left out for brevity's sake.

Aw, heck, gang. OK, I'll come clean.

It's all one big vast right-wing conspiracy, and Amber stumbled to the real truth.

Curt is actually one of the alien life forms that the Government found in Area 51 back in the 60's, and we had to let him go because the Mother Ship called and said that his Emmigration Visa expired. We thought it'd be kinda suspicious if he just left without a word, so we invented a dramatic event sure to raise the hackles on everyone.

I probably shouldn't tell y'all this, but if you promise to keep it 'tween us, I'll share some more inside scoop.... Philbox is actually a Cro-Magnon we found frozen in the ice one day while climbing a wicked WI 14 and 3/4 route in the Peruvian Andes. Using the heat from an MSR Wisperlite International (along with a hefty dose of warm urine,) we thawed the ice, took Phil to the local hospital, and brought him back to life. He's adapting well to the 21st Century, but keeps asking "Where are all the Wooly Mammoths?"

Y'all don't want to know the real truth about Bumblie. It's too scary, even for me.

It's all a conspiracy. Yep. That's it.

:roll:


Partner amber


Feb 18, 2005, 7:12 PM
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I think it would be a very interesting exeperiment to see what would evolve out of zero moderation

check out supertaco or wreckdotclimbing. actually, wreckdotclimbing would probably be best.


Partner happiegrrrl


Feb 18, 2005, 7:18 PM
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yes...they seem to do quite well at maintaining a high quality level....now don't they.....


wa_hoo


Feb 18, 2005, 7:39 PM
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Maybe I haven't been here long enough, or maybe I've been working too long, but there's tons of free reign in here - when it's about stuff in here. But when it's a public site, the rules are different when you say stuff about the world out there - whoever it is.

Just like you can't publish an ad slamming some company in the newspaper, it makes sense you can't do that here. It's different when it's a business.

Seems like the moderation is reasonable, a lot is ignored, and it's a good side that most of us enjoy or we wouldn't be here.

Can we just get back to sharing fun stories and stuff about climbing? :?


reno


Feb 18, 2005, 7:43 PM
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In reply to:
My beef isnt about Curt's decision to leave so much as it's about rc.com tarpitting a user because an advertiser got pissed about what the user had to say about the advertiser's product.

Once again, Amber, you show your total lack of understanding of the situation.

What Curt had to say about a product wasn't the issue. On this, I give you my word. (While my word may not amount to a hill of beans to you, I've never broken it before... not in 32 years.)

You really do not know the facts and are just speculating. And looking rather foolish doing it, too.


camhead


Feb 18, 2005, 8:47 PM
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hey reno, you chastize amber for her "lack of understanding," but do nothing to counter her accusations.

here's a simple idea... the management could just give us the FULL details of this matter and let us judge it for ourselves.

if the tarpit was justified, then surely we should be able to see all posts causing it, and I'm sure curt would not mind. the beauty of this medium is that all posts are preserved for future judging and evidence. unless they are locked.


the locking of topics and posts only increases distrust between users and the site. duh.


fracture


Feb 18, 2005, 9:06 PM
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In reply to:
Then, the bomb is dropped that Curt apparently got into it with
Matt Samet at R&I.
In reply to:
...Samet wrote about how they could have sued a rc.com poster...
In reply to:
presumably from that rock and ice v. climbing thread that
i did not click on for lack of interest....
In reply to:
The dude acted like a freaking child, and anonymously as well ( at least at first )

Hahahaha.

I saw the beginning of that thread (but apparently missed some fun before it got censored).

So colqueerio is Samet? He made an account with a username that obviously is slamming a well-known RC poster, and then y'all tarpitted someone else for slamming on him?

Que Dingus: "All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others."

Murf's gotta be dead on about the marketing gurus dreaming this stuff up. Screw partnership with Rock&Ice; you guys should partner up with the Soap channel. :lol: :lol:


fracture


Feb 18, 2005, 9:11 PM
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In reply to:
here's a simple idea... the management could just give us the FULL details of this matter and let us judge it for ourselves.

Exactly.

Why was the whole thread censored, if this is really just about Curt telling someone to fuck off (which he's obviously done tons of times before---just not to a potential business partner)?


Partner amber


Feb 18, 2005, 10:53 PM
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In reply to:
passive-aggressive drivel left out for brevity

You know, Reno, I really like you as a person - but your lame personal attacks are making you look like a big ol' tool.

I received PMs and phone calls from moderators who were concerned regarding the fact that some of the responses from staff are making things seem worse than the really are, and as I mentioned in the post that you neglected to quote and wrote off as drivel, I am quite content with the responses that I received from some of the less defensive, less confrontational members of staff. Further, I daresay that I know and understand far more about what's going on than you realize. However, that does not change the fact that there are some gaping holes in the "logic" (*cough* - excuses) provided to the community at large.

Further, although I may look like a fool to those who are privy to the specially sanctioned M&E forum, the questions that I've raised seem pretty damn valid to those who arent part of the super duper ultra cool club of RC.com Site Management. But, you dont have to take my word for it, check out the responses of the people who I quoted or even just the few posts above mine.

Regardless of my personal understanding of "The Curt Issue"(TM) , I think it's incredibly funny that site management considers itself above reproach and expects its members (a bunch of onry climbers, nonetheless) to be content with sitting quiet and looking pretty whenever a well-known member of OUR community is disciplined and subsquently leaves.

Perhaps, rather than continuing to make back-handed comments about members who question your a-thor-a-tay, you could sit quiet and look pretty yourself, OR find someone in all of M&E who can (and will) respond accurately and intelligently to the matter at hand.

In other words, I have agreed to leave it alone, and have stated an intent to do so out of respect for the requestors, but if you insist on continuing to quote my posts so that we can wrestle this thing out in the dirty mud of rc.com politics, well, I'll go put on my bikini, babe.


thomasribiere


Feb 19, 2005, 1:02 AM
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amber wrote
In reply to:
well, I'll go put on my bikini, babe

oh, do it please!


Partner tgreene


Feb 19, 2005, 7:55 AM
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{tiptoes out towards the center of the pond, where the ICE is really thin}

*IF* this is in fact in regards to a situation involving R&I, then I feel that it's important to revisit the extremely negative and in poor taste article that R&I wrote about climbing in southern Illinois, and the drama that subsequently followed w/ Eric Ulner and the R&I staff.

This thread says it all... :wink:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...&topic_view=&start=0


{tries quickly to crawl back to shore, as the ice begins giving way}


dingus


Feb 19, 2005, 8:26 AM
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Apostate mods are funny. Maybe start a Fundamentalist Rock Climbing Dot Calm there Amber. I bet your ideal world would be more closed than this one, lol.

I wonder, do mods ever get excommunicated?

And who among us has the ear of god?

All you folks who think wreck.climbing or supertaco is is better/worse/whatever... whyn't you try swimming with the sharks for a few months, see how you feel then?

Cheers
DMT


blowboarder


Feb 19, 2005, 9:01 AM
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In reply to:
All you folks who think wreck.climbing or supertaco is is better/worse/whatever... whyn't you try swimming with the sharks for a few months, see how you feel then?

Cheers
DMT

Yep. different ballgame over there. Kid gloves stay in the car. If I remember correctly, the subject matter at hand (Curt) got quite the welcome wagon when he first showed up.

Paraphrasing here:

Klaus "STFU Noob and go back to your gay site"

Hard to talk shit to the engineer of so many horrendous death routes that are just now seeing proud seconds. Plus he's fucking troll-proof.

I'm going to get worked over like a 9 year old at Neverland by the time February rolls around again. :lol:

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