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raymondjeffrey
Jul 23, 2005, 8:00 PM
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I would have to say the climbing is aerobic, but I am interested in what y'all think and why.
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d1ll1gaf
Jul 23, 2005, 9:15 PM
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I think that the answer depends upon what type of climbing you are doing, for example:
Bouldering = anaerobic
Single Pitch climbs = half/half (I know that I am always breathing hard after a hard climb)
Multi-pitch = aerobic
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islandclimber
Jul 27, 2005, 5:05 PM
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why is this in the aid climbing forum?
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aznrockclimber82
Jul 27, 2005, 5:34 PM
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Cause he seeks aid for his question.
Monk.
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jv
Jul 27, 2005, 5:36 PM
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I suppose that speed aid climbing can be aerobic, and if you go really fast for a long time you'll go anaerobic. I've redlined while jumaring too. But usually I'm going so slow in aiders, I'm not even burning fat.
JV
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fluxus
Jul 27, 2005, 10:00 PM
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There are a number of threads on this topic in the training section.
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jt512
Jul 27, 2005, 10:09 PM
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In reply to: I would have to say the climbing is aerobic, but I am interested in what y'all think and why.
If you're not climbing anaerobic, you're not trying hard enough.
-Jay
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oklahoma_climber
Jul 27, 2005, 10:33 PM
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In reply to: I would have to say the climbing is aerobic, but I am interested in what y'all think and why.
i think you are wrong. and i think that because climbing is anaerobic.
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jt512
Jul 27, 2005, 10:39 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I would have to say the climbing is aerobic, but I am interested in what y'all think and why. i think you are wrong. and i think that because climbing is anaerobic.
Clearly, it depends on how hard you are climbing relative to your fitness level, or more precisely, relative to your anaerobic threshold. Did I just say anything there?
-Jay
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epic_ed
Jul 28, 2005, 2:22 AM
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epic_ed moved this thread from Aid Climbing to Technique & Training.
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epic_ed
Jul 28, 2005, 2:23 AM
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In reply to: why is this in the aid climbing forum?
Because I've been working on over-moderating other threads. :P
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jowanky
Jul 28, 2005, 2:31 AM
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Wouldnt it be aerobic when you still have ATP, and then anaerobic once you have to switch to glycolsis with the byproduct of lactic acid or lactate? So it would be both.
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kcht
Jul 28, 2005, 2:35 AM
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Bouldering is definately anaerobic, sport.... also anaerobic. Trad/aid maybe a mix.
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krisp
Jul 28, 2005, 2:38 AM
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In reply to: I think that the answer depends upon what type of climbing you are doing, for example: Bouldering = anaerobic Single Pitch climbs = half/half (I know that I am always breathing hard after a hard climb) Multi-pitch = aerobic
Bouldering=correct
Single pitch=wrong
Milti pitch=wrong
All climbing is anaerobic. period. to perform an aerobic activity your heart rate has to stay a certain number of beats per minute( I think is something like 20bpm) over your resting heart rate for at least 20 consecutive minutes. Because of the length of a pitch, and the rest at the belay, this is damn near impossible. Maybe if you were free soloing a 5.2 and literally running up several pitches....anyway, aerobic climbing... I don't think so :roll:
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fluxus
Jul 28, 2005, 2:55 AM
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The question "is climbing aerobic" is like asking "is running aerobic." Neither is a very good question because they are far too broad. The answer in both cases is that it depends on the duration and intensity of the work being done by the muscles in question.
For most of the muscles in the body climbing remains aerobic most of the time. For the muscles of the forearms which we depend on so heavily, and which are so small climbing quickly become anaerobic.
Doing aerobic endurance training for your forearms will increase both the intensity and duration of work you can handle without depending too heavly upon anaerobic energy production.
Doing anaerobic endurance training for your forearms will increase the amount of climbing you can do when relying mostly on anaerobic energy production in the forearm muscles.
Check out this book: http://www.amazon.com/...nce&s=books&n=507846
it covers both topics in great detail and includes specific workouts.
its available in October.
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fluxus
Jul 28, 2005, 3:11 AM
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In reply to: All climbing is anaerobic. period.
And the above statement is incorrect. Period.
You can't use HR as a way of measuring what energy system is being used more heavily in climbing.
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muttblood
Aug 7, 2005, 6:59 PM
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Try reading the following article entitled "Physiology of Sport Rock Climbing" For those of you who are unfamiliar, VO2 max is the maximum amount of oxygen the body can take in, utilize and distribute in the body during exercise. You may or may not be surprised with the results of the experiment.
http://bjsm.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/38/3/355
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rufusandcompany
Aug 7, 2005, 7:57 PM
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As some have mentioned, whether on not you are climbing anaerobically or aerobically depends on a number of factors. Here is some info, in layman's terms, to help you determine your physical state, while climbing. Once you understand this, wearing a heart monitor will better assist you in gauging your condition. You will also need to be tested for your VO2max, so that you can determine what 70% to 90% of your capacity is.
Energy is derived aerobically when oxygen is utilized to metabolize substrates obtained from food, and deliver energy to the working muscles.
A sports event, or activity that will build cardiorespiratory endurance, is termed aerobic when the majority of the energy in the athlete is derived aerobically (aerobic training is without oxygen debt). Aerobic training should be activities that are performed continuously for a minimum of 15 to 20 minutes at a level of 70% to 90% of maximal heart rate; no less than three times a week.
Athletes requiring a higher level of aerobic fitness (endurance) will train four to six days a week. Examples of large muscle group activities include; walking, jogging running non-sprint cycling, swimming, and cross-country skiing.
The critical feature of aerobic activity is continuous activity. And, specificity of training (SAID) dictates that the training should closely resemble the activity, or event: Runners should run, swimmers swim, for example. Thus, to improve cardiovascular endurance, the athlete should train aerobically.
Athletes involved in activities with a low aerobic component, such as bouldering, football, power events in track, sprint events in running, swimming, and cycling, may see a decrease in power and strength with excessive aerobic training. These athletes should limit their aerobic training to the early preparation of off-season training and then engage in a minimal amount of aerobic training to maintain good general fitness.
I hope that this helps.
KC
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clausti
Aug 7, 2005, 11:16 PM
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somehow i dont think the cellular respiration variety was what he was asking.
on the most general level you have sports that are "aerobic" like running. and sports that are "anaerobic" like weight lifting. the term refer more to catagories of exercise re:weight loss than anything else, as far as i can determine.
in that case, climbing is anaerobic, as far as losing fat is concerned. however, if you climb regularly you will still probably lose weight, but only as a function of burning more calories than you are used to. not as MUCH as if you spent the same running, ect.
on a sub-cellular level, all exertation begins as aerobic, and progresses to anaerobic if continued long enough, and THAT has to do with how much oxygen is in your muscles. the important part of that is that the product of anaerobic cellular respiration is the 3-carbon chain lactose/ lactic acid, a much larger molecule that the 2-carbon chain product of aerobic respiration.
edit... actually, the REALLY important part of the differnt paths of cellular respiration is that, because the 3-carbon chain is larger, you know it has more energy still in it. therefore, it is a less efficient pathway.
POINT: breathe. keep breathing.
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rufusandcompany
Aug 7, 2005, 11:49 PM
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In reply to: somehow i dont think the cellular respiration variety was what he was asking. on the most general level you have sports that are "aerobic" like running. and sports that are "anaerobic" like weight lifting. the term refer more to catagories of exercise re:weight loss than anything else, as far as i can determine. in that case, climbing is anaerobic, as far as losing fat is concerned. however, if you climb regularly you will still probably lose weight, but only as a function of burning more calories than you are used to. not as MUCH as if you spent the same running, ect. on a sub-cellular level, all exertation begins as aerobic, and progresses to anaerobic if continued long enough, and THAT has to do with how much oxygen is in your muscles. the important part of that is that the product of anaerobic cellular respiration is the 3-carbon chain lactose/ lactic acid, a much larger molecule that the 2-carbon chain product of aerobic respiration. edit... actually, the REALLY important part of the differnt paths of cellular respiration is that, because the 3-carbon chain is larger, you know it has more energy still in it. therefore, it is a less efficient pathway. POINT: breathe. keep breathing.
If you are referreing to my response, his question was very general. I believe that the information, that I supplied, will help him. Cheers, KC
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clausti
Aug 8, 2005, 12:00 AM
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rufus: no, i was not talking spec to you. more to jay, really. as you said, his question was very general, and i dont think that a discussion on cellular respiration was what he really wanted, which is what jay was referring to with the "how hard" you are climbing comments.
i didnt even really read ur post till after i'd posted.
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rufusandcompany
Aug 8, 2005, 12:04 AM
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Clausti, Thank you for clarifying that. I am trying to get used to navigating this site. KC
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fluxus
Aug 8, 2005, 1:19 AM
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The thing about this discussion is that speaking in such general terms is not much help in describing what happens in climbing.
You can talk about heart rate and other issue as much as you want but the fact remains that these things do not play out in climbing as they do in other activities. It seems that the point can not be made often enough that in climbing our first concern is what energy system the muscles of the forearms are relying more heavily upon. In climbing one simply can not draw a diret line between systemic factors such as heart rate and what is going on locally in the forearms. Understanding this is essential to understanding climbing and how to train for it.
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eclipsor
Aug 10, 2005, 6:04 PM
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Rock climbing (at least the great majority of it) is an anaerobic glycolytic sport.
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rufusandcompany
Aug 10, 2005, 9:24 PM
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Eclipsor is correct.
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rufusandcompany
Aug 10, 2005, 10:39 PM
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Here is an explanation and break-down of the body's energy-burning patterns. The information has been cut and pasted, and is in no way intended as plagiarism:
Adenosine triphosphate (ATP) is the nucleotide known in biochemistry as the "molecular currency" of intracellular energy transfer; that is, ATP is able to store and transport chemical energy within cells. ATP also plays an important role in the synthesis of nucleic acids.
Chemical properties
Adenosine triphosphate (ATP)Chemically, ATP consists of adenosine and three phosphate groups. It has the empirical formula C10H16N5O13P3, and the chemical formula C10H8N4O2NH2(OH)2(PO3H)3H, with a molecular mass of 507.184 u.
Functions
ATP molecules are used to store the energy plants make in cellular respiration.
Phosphoryl positions
The phosphoryl groups starting with that on AMP are referred to as the alpha, beta, and gamma phosphates.
Synthesis
ATP can be produced by various cellular processes, most typically in mitochondria by oxidative phosphorylation under the catalytic influence of ATP synthase or in the case of plants in chloroplasts by photosynthesis.
The main fuels for ATP synthesis are glucose and fatty acids. Initially glucose is broken down into pyruvate in the cytosol. Two molecules of ATP are generated for each molecule of glucose. The terminal stages of ATP synthesis are carried out in the mitochondrion and can generate up to 36 ATP.
ATP in the human body
The total quantity of ATP in the human body is about 0.1 mole. The energy is used by human cells for the hydrolysis of 200 to 300 moles of ATP daily. This means that each ATP molecule is recycled 2000 to 3000 times during a single day. ATP cannot be stored, hence its synthesis must closely follow its consumption.
Human ATP synthesis
The body has four methods to create ATP, they vary by speed, and by whether they burn oxygen or not.
Explosive Force - The ATP-CP System: ADP + Creatine phosphate (CP) ==> ATP + Creatine. By far the fastest way to get that third phosphate group is to grab it off of a molecule called "creatine phosphate" or CP. When you are doing very explosive exercise for 10-30 seconds, such as an all-out sprint, the burst of energy is delivered by the ATP-CP system. Fast, doesn't require oxygen, but extremely limited to short periods of explosive force.
Sugar Burning - Step 1 (Anaerobic Glycolysis): ADP + glucose ==> ATP + pyruvic acid (which converts to lactate if not burned with oxygen). The next fastest method of getting energy is to turn a sugar molecule into lactic acid. This doesn't require oxygen either. This system is effective for vigorous exercise of between 1-3 minutes in duration. When the intensity of the exercise requires more energy than what can be burned with the oxygen you are breathing, your body starts "partially" burning glucose anaerobically (without oxygen). This is the system you want to be using during "wind sprints". This is a system that has to be trained in order to get fast results, but again, this system can be used only for a limited period. As lactic acid builds up in your muscles, you start to feel them "burn". If you go beyond a few minutes of this, the acidity of the muscle tissue increases and the muscles start to have difficulty generating meaningful amounts of energy.
Sugar Burning - Step 2 (Aerobic Glycolysis): ADP + lactate + oxygen ==> ATP + water + carbon dioxide. This is the next system, and for all practical purposes is the one you use most often when exercising. Once glucose has been converted to lactate anaerobically (without oxygen), the body then burns the lactate using oxygen to create more ATP.
Fat Burning (Aerobic Lipolysis): Fat + oxygen + ADP ==> ATP + water + carbon dioxide. This is by far the slowest system. It is, in fact, too slow to contribute extensively to energy production during exercise (in fact, if you ever deplete your glycogen stores so much that the body has to rely on lipolysis for its energy, your muscle movement slows down dramatically). In order to mobilize fat, a "triglyceride" has to be broken down into fatty acids, bound to proteins, and other time-consuming feats. The good news, is that lipid (fat) metabolism is the main way that your glycogen stores are replenished after exercise. That's why it can be useful to work out in the morning on an empty stomach and wait about an hour after your workout before eating - your glycogen stores are more depleted by the end of your workout and you burn more fat afterward.
Source: John P. Hussman, Ph.D., MSEd. [1] (http://www.hussman.org/fitness/)
Other triphosphates
Living cells also have other "high-energy" nucleoside triphosphates, such as guanine triphosphate. Between them and ATP, energy can be easily transferred with reactions such as those catalyzed by nucleoside diphosphokinase: Energy is released when hydrolysis of the phosphate-phosphate bonds is carried out. This energy can be used by a variety of enzymes, motor proteins, and transport proteins to carry out the work of the cell. Also, the hydrolysis yields free inorganic phosphate and adenosine diphosphate, which can be broken down further to another phosphate ion and adenosine monophosphate. ATP can also be broken down to adenosine monophosphate directly, with the formation of pyrophosphate. This last reaction has the advantage of being an effectively irreversible process in aqueous solution.
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