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Ego! Does it help or hinder your effort?
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guangzhou


Aug 2, 2005, 12:12 AM
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The husband/wife climbing team thing is a common one. At the last New River Gorge Rendezvous Jeff Achey and Tracy Martin did a clinic on just this. I'd suggest that on some routes that you will be leading (while husband belaying) that if you cannot complete the climb that you both go to another route rather than have him bail you out. Perhaps this would help motivate you to not give up for fear but for real concerns.

I like this idea and I will pass it on to Barb

Welcome back Arno. I am glad to see you will be a regular, and I may start frequenting the forum again. Thereís so much to learn.

By the way, I use you guiding principles to encourage my students to take risk in my classroom now. Seems to have an impact. When I get a chance, I will email you a brief write up on how I do this.


arnoilgner


Aug 2, 2005, 5:22 PM
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guangzhou quote:
"When I get a chance, I will email you a brief write up on how I do this."

That would be great. Send to: warriorsway@mindspring.com
arno


Partner kimgraves


Aug 3, 2005, 5:11 PM
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Hi Arno,

How you doing? Iím so glad this forum is back and youíre at the helm. Now we just need to get it out of the ďclubĒ box and up in the list.

My own feeling is that ego and all the other talk in your head is just fear and weakness poking its head up. When the voices are still, I can focus on the situation at hand and whatís in front of me. Iím actually learning this from yoga, not from climbing. Iím involved in a very difficult style of yoga called ashtanga. It is absolutely wild how afraid I can become trying to do a pose thatís either new to me or pushes me in some way. And this happens in the objectively safe environment standing on the level floor, in a warm room, with a caring teacher in front of me. I deal with this fear by breathing in the way yoga teaches Ė the fear disappears and I can focus on the pose.

Iím learning to bring this same work to my trad leading. Last weekend I was pretty under the weather with stomach problems. I had a lot of self doubts about being able to lead anything and so we decided to do something really, really easy. Luckily, even easy climbs at the Gunks can be spectacular. The climb was rated PG but the first place for pro was 25í off the deck (how is that PG?)! Even though this was way below my current level, the thought of decking if I lost it was there. That coupled with my stomach and I was not a pretty picture. I just did the breathing thing and focused of the flow of movement. I was at the crack in 15 seconds and slotting in pro. By the second pitch I was feeling better and in the zone. It ended up being a good day after all.

So me feeling is that ego in all things is useless for getting anything done. Not just climbing wise. But in my home life and business life as well. It just gets in the way. And whatís more all those stories I tell myself about myself are ultimately not very interesting. Itís actually much more interesting to be doing something.

Best, Kim


supe


Aug 3, 2005, 6:11 PM
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Hey arno,

Ego is a very interesting thing in climbing. I remember when I started climbing three years having no ego at all, but just feeling remarkably humble watching the guys I went with scurry up the climbs. After taking half an hour toproping my first climb, and being lowered down with bleeding palms I remember looking at a climb up the crag to my left named Second Coming. It went up a prestigous overhang and with the sunshine catching it just right looked as if it could only be climbed by demigods. I got down and asked my brother what it was rated. 12a he said. I remember saying, "the day I climb that will be the greatest day of my life and I will never ask for anything more in climbing."

Well with a great deal of training at the hands of very experienced and patient people I redpointed it six months later. I've kind of found that this has helped me out with the whole ego thing. Whenever I think to myself "I should be able to climb this!" or "why did I fall on that, its only 5.x?" I just think, "well according to what I thought when I first got into this I have already reached the zenith of my climbing experience. Everything after this is just a bonus.

The other thing that has helped me is once I get on the rock I enjoy myself so much that I nearly forget about everything else. If I fall on something that is supposedly well within my ability I usually end up thinking "man! that was a gnarly climb! I need to get back on it and beat that sucker!"

Another thing that has helped me lately is I have been out of climbing a bit. I used to go about 3 times a week and now I am lucky if I get to go once every two weeks. This has decreased my climbing ability, but made me enjoy the few times I get out much more. The other day I was just so happy to be out that I forgot totally about everything and onsited 3 climbs that were significantly harder than my old hardest onsite was. I was very pleasantly suprised.

Sorry, this is getting really long but I have just one more thing to say. My best buddy and climbing partner has had a much harder time with the ego thing. He is a very good climber and I think knowing this has hampered him. 2 years ago he reached his pinnacle and redpointed his 13.b project in one of the most beautiful climbing moments I have evers seen. But the trouble is that it seems like forever since then he has been trying to live up to that moment. Now when we go on trips and see some awe inspiring 12 rising up above us I get a gut clenching feeling and just looking at it and my buddy just says, "well its only a 12." Well when we get on it I struggle up it but enjoy the moves and think the same old thought in my head, when I redpoint this it will be the best climbing day of my life. " My buddy on the other hand gets pissed off when he has trouble with the moves (12 moves are still hard for anyone) and ends up making up excuses when he takes a fall. Well, in reality the climb wasn't bolted by losers, and his shoulder isn't jacked like he says it is. Its just we don't climb as much as we used to. He is still trying to live up to that image he has in his mind of himself sailing up the 13.b. I think if he just forgot that he ever redpointed it and just focused on that queasy wonderful feeling you get in your stomach when you're on a 15 foot runout and one leg is elvis pumping, one hand is slipping of the sloper, and the other hand is scrabbling desperatley for that last elusive quickdraw on your harness that feels like its slipping off your sweating hips he would have a lot better time.

The key for me is just to go out with no other expectations than that no matter how bad I climb I will assuredly have a better time climbing than I will have at work.


slcliffdiver


Aug 3, 2005, 8:08 PM
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Always remind yourself of the true goal: learning.
arno

My approach (or at least how I word it) is different my true goal is joy. The most direct path for me in this is "playful" focus. Much of society tends to view play as frivolus unproductive etc. However play is the most productive state I know if channeled into the task at hand. A sense of play is energetic, focused, creative, spontaneous and generally leaves you open to learning also anyone disagree or think of a better productive state of mind? On the other hand if there is a more productive state I'd be curious to hear but as a practical matter I really don't care to often because a sense of play is fun.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=43729 Photo of Kaitlyn by climbsomething

Twice in one day but my ideal of the ultimate "rock warrior" and what I'm talking about.

As far as the general thread goes people especially in the west are used to using ego as a motivational tool. It's fast and easy to do. We generally have less models and training for using non ego related motivations like love and joy (of being in process). Setting goals is not neccasarily and ego thing having expectiation about reaching your goals or not is.

The following is not my model but something I read somewhere and found helpful but I forget where to attribute it. Basically you set goals that require a level of focus you are capable of but that isn't to easy. It's the focus required in trying to achieve the goal that provides the joy. I think it's the awarness that you set the goal at least in part to provide you joy in being involved in the process of trying achieve the goal allows for stepping outside of "expecting" to achieve it. For me "expectation" equals ego and ego kills pure joy. One other thing from "the book" having something important to you and setting goals to achieve it doesn't neccisarily emesh you in ego. It's holding on to the goal (attachment) once you put yourself in process and expections that set up the internal conflicts. Not sure if I worded it great but I hope it's clear enough to make something more fun for at least one person.

Anyway glad the forum opened up now. Got myself in a funk over some stuff I'd been dealing with and I need a reminder to focus on the process, remember whats worked for me and maybe learn some new tricks to spend more time in process and joy. Most "mental training" I've done weather standard meditation techniques, climbing etc. have applied fairly broadly to my life and vice versa.


curt


Aug 3, 2005, 8:31 PM
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.....Ok. We need to identify "ego" before we go further. What I mean by ego and how I define it in the RWW book is an identity we create that is based on what we have accomplished--I'm a 5.11 climber who has climbed such-and-such routes. We tend to associate how worthy we feel with how well we're climbing. "I feel like a good climber because I climbed up to my ego identity of being a 5.11 climber." That sort of comparison......

Arno,

If I reflect back on my personal climbing career, there was a time (early on) when I possessed the strength and technical skills to do many routes and boulder problems that I would regularly fail on. Even though I "could" climb or boulder that hard, I was still a bit in awe of the grades themselves (or something) and thinking about how hard the problem or route was would make me subconsciously doubt myself and I would then fail. As my career progressed and I gained confidence, I would begin to approch any given boulder problem or climb assuming that I could do it--until I had evidence to the contrary. Obviously this type of optimism or confidence leads greatly to success. However, is this type of confidence just the same thing you are calling ego?

Curt


blueeyedclimber


Aug 4, 2005, 8:35 AM
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Arno,

Dealing with my ego, has perhaps, been the most important step in my climbing career thus far. I see it in two ways:
1. Early on i was very focused on grades and defined myself as a 5.xx climber. Now I don't even like to talk about it and I don't know how to answer anyone who asks what grade I climb. If someone really needs to know what I climb, then they can watch me, but I feel that telling someone a number does two things; gives them an impression of me that may or may not be true and also limits myself to live up to that. Maybe I am better than the number I gave.
2. THe second way I have seen my ego is my expectation that I have to succeed (finish a route). I would never back off before. Because of that it has caused at least two accidents. I have no problem backing off a route if I feel the need to. For example, I was leading a 5.3 in the Gunks. A nice leisurely climb. Well, I got to a point where it seemed to get a lot harder. I assumed I was off route and it was getting late. The old me would have been saying "come on, this is a 5.3, stop being such a pussy!" There happened to be a couple of pink tricams stuck in a hole so I left a biner and downclimbed to the last rapple station. Yeah, I could have finshed the pitch, but I didn't need to and I am fine with that.

Josh


arnoilgner


Aug 4, 2005, 1:56 PM
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Hi kimgraves,

Yes, you point out many types of ego distractions. What helps is to develop awareness when distractions happen. We do it by developing what I call the Witness position--that part of you that notices the attention leak. Then you can stop the leak and refocus attention onto the situation.
best, arno


arnoilgner


Aug 4, 2005, 2:07 PM
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Hi Supe

Expectations! Seems like I'm hearing a lot about this lately. And it is interesting that "expectations" is the topic of my next newsletter.

Anyway, yes, we create an image of ourselves based on a performance (in this case your friend's 13b walkup) and then create expectations based on that. When we do that our attention is focused on that expectation instead of on climbing the best we can TODAY. It all boils down to attention. If we leak attention to some expectation we won't be effective in climbing what we are faced with today.

Again, like I mentioned to kimgraves, we need to be the Witness to these leaks and STOP them. Then refocus on climbing.
arno


arnoilgner


Aug 4, 2005, 2:21 PM
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Hello David (slcliffdiver)

Basically agree with you, and the pic of the little one smiling is a great example of your point. A few things to consider.

1. Yes, we must set goals. I recommend setting two types--destination and journey. The destination goals are like climbing certain routes or grades. The journey goals are specific skills, techniques, strengths (mental and physical) that need to be learned in order to accomplish the destination goals.

2. Expectation doesn't have to be an ego thing tied to the destination. You can have expectations on process. You can look at a climb and identify skills it will require, like jamming, stemming, crimping--all things you can do. So there isn't anything wrong with saying "I expect to be able to do those things because I've done them before." Expectations that focus attention onto what you need to do to climb the route are okay.

3. Joy vs. learning. If we could be motivated by joy all the time that would be best probably. But, we are in many situations in our lives where it is difficult to find joy. Take a tragedy or a job you don't particularly like. Probably difficult to find joy in it, but if we look for what we can learn we focus attention back into the moment.

best, arno


arnoilgner


Aug 4, 2005, 2:27 PM
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Hi Curt, you quote below.

"As my career progressed and I gained confidence, I would begin to approach any given boulder problem or climb assuming that I could do it--until I had evidence to the contrary. Obviously this type of optimism or confidence leads greatly to success. However, is this type of confidence just the same thing you are calling ego?"

When you say that you are going into the effort assuming you can "do it" then you are focused on the destination--the top. What do you mean by "do it?" Our ego want to have done a climb; it isn't interested in the doing it that involves the pain and effort that goes into climbing it.
Does this help?
arno


arnoilgner


Aug 4, 2005, 2:37 PM
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Hi Josh (blueeyedclimber)

Hey, watch the wording. Many folks, girls included, use wussy or worse to identify someone who is always afraid or lacks courage. Granted, it is mostly an unconscious habit. But, women have enough of a challenge in our male dominated world. No need to add to it.

Anyway, that was a sidetrack. Sorry. Sounds like you're saying you made decisions in your climbing career based on ego and that got you into trouble and accidents, right? So, your ego decisions caused you to refocus on what is most important in your climbing. Ego got you engaged on routes and then while there you learned what you really should be focusing on, which I dare say is having fun and seeing if you can rise to the challenge.
Be well. arno


Partner angry


Aug 4, 2005, 2:51 PM
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Arno, I first have to say I have never so much as looked at your book. I did get to overhear two very strong climbers (12+/13- trad) argue this ego issue.

A few random points

1) Most people consider ego as an arrogance in their identity. No matter how well defined it is. Most people will never get past this connotation. This will be why ego is so often argued about. People are saying the same thing with different words.

2) I have personally onsighted climbs out of brash arrogance and to stroke my ego (to back up a lie I told), that have taken me a year to repeat under my more normal attitude. ---It was pretty funny actually.

3) There is an inverted U theory on sports performance. The more aroused you are, the better you perform until you are too aroused, this will cause your performance to drop. There is a catastrophic U theory that has a severe drop off instead of a gradual decline.

I'd like to talk about #3. If I say I'm a 5.11 climber to myself, I will be fully aroused to climb at that level. This could help me on routes that I have been told are 5.11. I'm thinking I'm capable the whole time. Now I could get on a 5.12 that doesn't have a move harder than 5.11c and fall simply because I believe the route is slightly beyond me. And I have sanbagged people into onsighting routes they believed were beyond them.

So if the route is a known quantity within your ability, ego helps. If the route is sandbagged, ego helps. If the route is within your ability but you are told it is not, ego is a huge hinderance. It took me several years of climbing to disregard my own belief of how hard a climber I am (something I still struggle with) and to disregard the published or known rating of a route when deciding to climb it.

Am I even in the same ballpark?


andy_reagan


Aug 4, 2005, 3:27 PM
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I've had good results with learning to adopt a "big picture" outlook on climbing. That is to say, climbing is my life's passion, and I forsee myself growing and learning to climb more difficult routes and in different styles. This makes it much more easier to deal with the hard reality of climbing, some days you're "on" and some days you're "off," its OK in the long run though since its all part of the PROCESS.

Using this mentality I've then examined my relationship to climbing and the way those on and off days effect my mood, motivation, and general outlook on life. I've come to believe it is in fact the "on" days that are most dangerous to my overall performance as a climber insofar as they are orders of magnitude harder to harness and control compared to the "off" days. I mess up a sequence and fall off a route, it's really OK, I'll try again, maybe I get it, maybe I don't, chances are I will learn something. BUT...I nail a sequence, GREAT, my training and climbing has paid off, but the ego starts rearing its ugly head and attempting to solidify a dangerous mentality, in which climbing is only good when I am "sending."

So, BEWARE, Arno is right, the ego is a devious and tricky fella.

Peace,
Andy


lewisiarediviva


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I say ego hinders, but can be used as a tool to push yourself. I''m turning my ego into a friend.

I use to get so caught up in trying to prove myself that I'd not be focusing on the rock I was on, but rather what others thought of the rock I was on (I guess that means I was more worried that other people thought I was good enough to be waisting their time with me). This ego I discovered one day had more to do with why I was afraid to fall than falling itself (yes, this just dawned on me). Now that I put the two together I realize that since I started pushing myself hard enough to actually attempt the move I'd likely fall on, I have also started saying "okay, that's enough for the day."

But then again, all of you who actually climb rocks, rather than walk up with a few hand moves, I'm in awe of you.

But ego as a tool, I've started to use it to encourage myself to get over the crux. I remind myself that just because the crux is hard doesn't mean I'm not good enough for it. Infact my climbing partners were playing on a 5.11 the other day. I didn't even try because I figure since I have yet to succeed on a 5.10 I have no right to be on a 5.11. Is that dumb or what? Every time they got on the rock I saw all sorts of shadows. I could have gotten just as far as they did. My 8 year old did, and believe me- she has an ego.


slcliffdiver


Aug 5, 2005, 12:04 AM
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slcliffdiver


Aug 5, 2005, 12:04 AM
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In reply to:
Hello David (slcliffdiver)

Basically agree with you, and the pic of the little one smiling is a great example of your point. A few things to consider.

1. Yes, we must set goals. I recommend setting two types--destination and journey. The destination goals are like climbing certain routes or grades. The journey goals are specific skills, techniques, strengths (mental and physical) that need to be learned in order to accomplish the destination goals.

2. Expectation doesn't have to be an ego thing tied to the destination. You can have expectations on process. You can look at a climb and identify skills it will require, like jamming, stemming, crimping--all things you can do. So there isn't anything wrong with saying "I expect to be able to do those things because I've done them before." Expectations that focus attention onto what you need to do to climb the route are okay.

3. Joy vs. learning. If we could be motivated by joy all the time that would be best probably. But, we are in many situations in our lives where it is difficult to find joy. Take a tragedy or a job you don't particularly like. Probably difficult to find joy in it, but if we look for what we can learn we focus attention back into the moment.

best, arno

Going to do this backwards.
Joy: It's a bit akward talking about the kind of joy I mean english language being what it is. It's a certian kind of peace and sense of well being mixed with joy that can be a constant and I believe is a result of being in a certain state of focus. For a time (year or two maybe a little longer) it was pretty much constant in my life it was their when I mourned my grandmothers death (I was about a sad as I'd ever been in my life). It was there when I was angry, turned on whatever. I think it was that I had simply learned to not be "tied to" expectiations of how I would or should be feeling or thinking. I ended up letting it go and most of the reason I've been posting the past couple of days is to reclaim it.

Expectation: Maybe I was wrong. One thing I know is learning and maintaining the awareness that expection is a process of my imagination and accepting that I'm frequently wrong about it was one of the things that brought a great deal of joy/peace to me. Maybe it's the attachment to expectaitions that would best fit the label ego best. I'll probably relook at this in a bit but I believe one of ego's main modes of operation/tricks is to convince us that our expectaition are real things and that if they aren't met we will be discontent/miserable/unhappy.

Goals: The main thing that I object to is the word "must" in must set goals (especially as related to climbing). For me the word must is ego's playground. It's and important tool to realize when I'm "choosing" goals for my entertainment. Ego catches me when I don't take the time to be clear about why I'm setting the goal. Anyway it's important to my sense of freedom (from my ego) that I have a good sense that many goals are arbitriary in and of themselves but are a means to and end and that end utlimately is food, water, shelter, love, joy or growth if it isn't one of these then it's probably helpful to change my perspective about my goal or the goal itself. It's a wide spread cultural habit to motivate ones self to the achievement of somewhat arbitrary goals by artificially thinking of the goals themselves as important. This is a source of much misery and ego involvement and as far as I'm concerned one of the main sources of ego control and misery in our society. It's a much more pleasant/liberating process if I motivate myself by realize I'm working on the goals out of love either for myself or someone else. This is one reason I do better if I take time in the beggining to rely clarify/absorb/bask in the real spiritual point of setting my goals. Any even for little subgoals that are a logically a part of the process to achieving a larger goal I suggest people take a few extra moments to slow down and connect on a spiritual level to the point behind the goal and notice how it changes your perspective while trying to achieve it. When I leave this out it's like leaving out or hurrying past my preclimb ritual my flow just isn't the same.

Anyway not sure if we really disagree about anything or even have much different perspectives it's hard to tell from a few words on a screen about stuff like this. I'll go get your book soon to see if I can learn something and maybe get some more background on where you are coming from. I am finding it helpful to clarify some of this stuff for myself I've gone back to some old habits and am realizing what's worked before with me that I've esentially stopped doing. My ego's suckered me into sleepwalking my way trying to avoid feeling stress and it's time to wake up. I thank you for starting this tread I can feel writing and reading about ego helping me wake up a bit.


murf


Aug 5, 2005, 8:49 AM
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Arno,

Thanks for the contributions!

In reply to:
1. Yes, we must set goals. I recommend setting two types--destination and journey. The destination goals are like climbing certain routes or grades.

How does one separate destination goals from the ego?

In reply to:
2. Expectation doesn't have to be an ego thing tied to the destination. You can have expectations on process. Expectations that focus attention onto what you need to do to climb the route are okay.

When I think about expectations/ego -vs- learning/journey many times it appears as a rationalization for failure. Sure I didn't perform xxx but I did learn that I can yyy. It appears that you can always find some nugget of learning that could make up for the fact that you didn't relax/onsite/send/???. Brought down to an absurdity, I got out of bed today. I learned that I can get out of bed at 7:00am on the first Friday of August. However, I didn't get up at 6 and run. This is taken out of climbing context, but the same thing applies.

When are you just making an excuse for failing?

Murf


saxfiend


Aug 5, 2005, 9:53 AM
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I recently picked up "Rock Warrior's Way" and am finding it very illuminating.

Regarding ego, I have a couple of personal scenarios I'd be interested in hearing comments on:

1. Since I've only been climbing for eight months, I'm still in what I'd call a sort of "grace period" of being able to exceed the low expectations of my more experienced fellow climbers. I'll get congratulations from somebody for completing a climb with no falls where they might have thought I'd have more trouble with the climb. This sort of thing makes me uncomfortable and I try to sort of deflect the attention elsewhere, because I don't want to get focused on other peoples' praise. Because if I do, I'll be focused on the fact that I'm no longer getting that praise once the "grace period" is over! I really want to avoid indulging myself in what other people think (good or bad) of my climbing ability.

2. I get a lot of enjoyment out of doing harder routes than I've done before in terms of some new thing I've had to learn to climb those routes. Or going back to routes I've already done and trying some new thing I've learned. For instance, I recently took a climbing workshop with Florin Grama where he worked on doing things that made me concentrate a lot more on where my feet and hips were placed. So I took that to some routes I'd done before and it made a big difference; instead of lunging for holds, I was making more effortless moves. That gave me a lot of pleasure, and I don't know if this enjoyment is tied to ego or not.

Thanks for any feedback!

JL


arnoilgner


Aug 5, 2005, 3:22 PM
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slcliffdiver,
Yes, words are limiting when explaining something. We're probably talking very closing to the same point. I'd say the ultimate goal is self awareness so any goals we set need to be aligned with that foundational goal.
arno


arnoilgner


Aug 5, 2005, 3:27 PM
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murf

"When are you just making an excuse for failing?"
Again, self awareness is the ultimate goal because with that you understand your weaknesses better. If you know your weaknesses you can do something about them.
Become self aware if you are making rationalizations or if you are being honest with yourself. Through honesty you become more self aware.
arno
P.S. Side note: I do not like to use the words "success" and "failure" because they are tied to the destination (the top) and take attention away from the ultimate goal of learning, which essentially is self awareness.


arnoilgner


Aug 5, 2005, 5:27 PM
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Hi fshizzle (a couple of your quotes below and responses)

"Am I even in the same ballpark?" Well...yes. We all probably have a different definition of what ego is. Sigmund had his, etc...

"So if the route is a known quantity within your ability, ego helps. If the route is sandbagged, ego helps. If the route is within your ability but you are told it is not, ego is a huge hinderance."

I agree with you that we perform better if we are aroused (to the most effective level). We can be aroused by ego and we can be aroused by learning--meaning aroused by the desire to challenge our self. Your examples of the 5.11 climber don't show consistency in performance.
Knowing the rating helps sometimes and hinders sometimes. One of the most important aspects of performance is consistency. We need to be consistently performing at a high level regardless of outside factors. We need to draw our power from within ourselves, without depending on the external environment (the route) to do it. Granted, this is an ideal to strive for. Allowing ourselves to be aroused and motivated by the route can help--just doesn't help all the time. And "all the time" is what we need to strive for.
If we can be aroused from one main foundational place--learning--we are grounded and aligned with how the world works. Everything living is in the process of growing. Climbers too only grow if they are learning more about themselves.

You pose some interesting points that many climbers have discussed. And climbers will probably continue to discuss them. Remember, this is my view; doesn't mean it is right. Thanks for sharing.
arno


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Aug 5, 2005, 5:41 PM
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Hello saxfiend

You seem to be motivated by learning, at least at this point in your climbing. As you mentioned, early in our climbing we don't have a lot of expectations about how we are to perform. This frees you to focus on simply climbing your best.

Of course you do NOT want to be dependent on other people's praise. We each need to draw from within ourselves for the reasons we climb. That is a more consistent source, as I pointed out in fshizzle's post. We do climb better in a supportive environment so it is very helpful to have a great group of folks to climb with. But, don't be dependent on receiving praise and don't be deterred by negative comments (yes you'll get some of those from time to time).

Your comments in #2 are based on learning. Tell Florin I said hi. He is teaching you (and you are learning) new things and learning again by applying those teachings on the routes you've done before. I think I said "learning" several times in this paragraph, so... Ego is subtle though. Observe if you feel better/worse than someone else because you climb better/worse. This is a great indicator if ego is involved.
Does this help? arno


saxfiend


Aug 6, 2005, 7:46 AM
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In reply to:
Observe if you feel better/worse than someone else because you climb better/worse. This is a great indicator if ego is involved.
Thanks for the comments! As to feeling better/worse than others, I have to be honest that there's been a few occasions I've patted myself on the back for being able to complete a hard climb with no falls and one of my experienced friends had problems with the climb (obviously that doesn't happen a lot). Most of the time though, my regular climbing partners provide a pretty good counterbalance to that sort of ego stroking. For every route that I can finish and A isn't able to, there's another route that she can finish and I can't. A good reminder that neither of us is "better."

JL


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Aug 6, 2005, 1:14 PM
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In reply to:
slcliffdiver,
Yes, words are limiting when explaining something. We're probably talking very closing to the same point. I'd say the ultimate goal is self awareness so any goals we set need to be aligned with that foundational goal.
arno

Thanks, having the ultimate goal/process as self awareness is probably the most practicle path for me with the ultimate motive (reminder of why I'm doing this) love/joy/peace sounds really right to me. Ultimately I beleive I was being persnikity in my post to try and make things clear for myself I really am just reawakening in many ways.

In reply to:
Observe if you feel better/worse than someone else because you climb better/worse. This is a great indicator if ego is involved.
Think we are on the same page and for me this has been one of the most useful observations. The most consistent sign for me that ego has walked into my head is when the fun level drops.

Anyway I do want to thank you again for starting this thread. I'm starting have the inward smile a good bit more already.

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