Forums: Climbing Information: Regional Discussions:
El Cajon Mtn. - Bolt war. Threats.
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for Regional Discussions

Premier Sponsor:

 
First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All


miguelito


Dec 14, 2005, 11:43 PM
Post #1 of 65 (33305 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 14, 2005
Posts: 2

El Cajon Mtn. - Bolt war. Threats.
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I am to forword these two letters of problem to climers in San Diego:

December 2005
Dear San Diego Climbers,

As everyone is aware, there has been much new route activity at El Cajon Mountain in the past five or so years. Essentially there are two main groups of first ascensionists, Art Messier and his former partner Gary Anderson with help from a few other friends and Brian Spiewak, Randy Leavitt, Chris Hubbard and Glen Svenson in various combinations. Thanks to these men the area has fast become the premier spot for winter sport climbing in San Diego.

Four or so weeks ago Gary and Art approached the mountain to watch two climbers head up a new route put up the week before called Shadowline. Apparently, while watching the two climbers ascend Shadowline, Art became highly agitated and began pacing and was furious about the new route. Threats about chopping and Art’s overall angry demeanor made Gary feel uncomfortable. After listening to Art fume and spew threats, Gary told Art that he wasn’t going to climb with him again because he didn’t want anything to do with him or chopping routes. He went to a storage cave where climbing and route setting gear is stored by all of the climbing teams, and took his things out. He demanded that Art hike down with him and drive him to his car.

The two climbers that were on Shadowline watched the two leave the mountain. Later, the same two climbers saw Art Messier return to the mountain staying below them for awhile and then leaving again. After the climbers rappelled to the ground, they went to the cave to find it completely trashed. Brian Spiewak’s drill, some tools and a large supply of bolts and hangers were gone as were Gary’s things. One of the witnesses phoned Brian with the news about the drill. Brian spoke to Gary to get the details of what happened on the ground. Gary explained the situation and told Brian that when he left, the cave was neat and orderly and that the drill and Brian’s other gear was still there.

Last week Chris Hubbard, Gary Anderson, and Brian Spiewak went to the mountain to climb some routes. They wanted to check Shadowline to see if the route was still there. The bolts on the route had been chopped. Brian was too bummed to climb and left. As Brian was hiking down the trail he ran into Art hiding in the bushes watching the wall with binoculars. A few words were exchanged and Brian left with a threat from Art that “for every new route that is put up on the wall he will chop two.” Phone calls to Art by others asking for the drill have ended in further threats including, “I know where you live and I know where your girlfriend works.”

As things seem to escalate from Art’s end, there is a need to record the vast history behind the meltdown. It is apparent to many that Art is impulsive, may be dangerous and the community needs to be aware of the potential for future confrontations with him. This is an attempt to educate the community about Art Messier.

Art is best known for running the website called the San Diego Climber’s Coalition. There are free guides to local areas and there is a page for single climbers to hook up. Climbers can add their emails to a list to become a “member.” On the surface, the website and the “Coalition” is seemingly legitimate. It looks as though there is a whole community of climbers involved in making decisions and running the website as a coalition because of the endless use of the words WE and US throughout the pages of the site. The reality is that Art is the sole proprietor and decision maker for the “coalition.” He alone creates the guides and writes the newsletters that are sent to the emails that the website has collected over the years. This in and of itself is not a negative thing, in fact it has been a valuable service for many climbers in the community. There is no dispute that Art has, in the past, organized climbers for trail building and area clean ups and has reported on closures etc. to the betterment of the community. However the website has been a boon for Art because it has given him a forum for his opinions and looks as though the entire community backs him via the “coalition.” Perhaps in some way he believes that he speaks for the entire community when he alone decides on climbing policy for local areas. This is obvious when reading responses on website forums about any local climbing area in San Diego. Art responds in the WE for the “coalition.”

The coalition idea was originated by Dave Kennedy a local guide book writer. Art and Dave were working together to create a climbing coalition and the website. The relationship crashed and Dave pulled out of the partnership after Art chopped several of his routes at Mission Gorge. This episode is where the true story of Art Messier begins.

Around 1999 Art decided that Mission Gorge had some undeveloped lines left to exploit after nearly twenty years of no activity. His actions coincided with the introduction of power drills and the ethics debates that followed in the international climbing media. Not only did Art create new sport routes at the Gorge, he retro-bolted older routes, placed top rope bolts where traditional protection existed and bolted next to cracks. Most if not all of these routes were created by rap bolting techniques. As well, many old bolts were replaced to make the routes safer and in some cases bolts were moved or taken out in order to make the climbing more convenient, safer, or in the bolter’s mind “better.” Art then got busy with the trail leading to the cliffs. He created, with the help of “trail days,” the climbers loop trail where none had been and cut new trail to some of the more hard to reach upper climbs in the Gorge. Many smaller boulders that were too heavy to move were blasted apart by power drills to make steps or access easier. Free guides to the Gorge appeared on the “coalition” website at about the same time to popularize his new routes. New names to old routes that he had “reorganized” were included. All of this was done with only miner grumblings by old timers and traditionalist in the community because it was thought by most that Art had the backing of the “Coalition.” In everyone’s mind, it was thought that there were meetings held by a group of elite coalition members about decisions and ethics issues for Mission Gorge that were being implemented by the head of the Coalition, Art Messier. In truth it was just Art. A website is a powerful tool to hide behind.

During the Mission Gorge reign, Art seemed to rule with impunity. On any given summer’s weekend Art could be seen and heard along the trails directing novice visitors as to where the best beginner’s routes were and making sure none stepped off of the trails. He would shout out beta if he noticed anyone doing a route “wrong.” It was a rarity to actually see him climbing. He seemed to enjoy controlling his environment and making sure people recognized who was boss more than the sport itself.

At the apex of Art’s career at Mission Gorge, Brian Spiewak, who runs the local climbing gym, began work on putting up some of the first new lines on El Cajon Mt.. Art received word about this activity and checked out the area. About the same time, and by pure accident, Chris Hubbard and his girlfriend stumbled into the area by coincidence. They had been reading Gary Shads hiking book looking for clues to hikes that went near undeveloped rocks in the county. As they passed the monolith countless times they decided to go check it out. After returning from hiking a trail that went to the top way to the west of the cliff, Chris called Art to see if there was info about reaching the cliffs. Art told him that there was some recent activity on the cliff and that he was actually working on a trail. He wasn’t ready or willing to give the trail beta to him though. The next weekend Chris and his girlfriend hiked around the area again and found the “hidden and secret” trail and hiked up to get a closer look. Chris loved what he saw and called Randy Leavitt. The ensuing development and its history can be read in Rock and Ice issue #144.

(An interesting coincidence?; After the article about El Cajon Mt. was published, Art’s website guide mysteriously disappeared for several months. As well, some unknown individual put out major efforts to block the trail leading to the cliff with huge rocks and branches. Randy’s article focused on the main wall and the upper headwall and not the right hand side in which Art’s routs reside. Perhaps, some of the timing of these events can be explained by Art feeling jilted that Rock and Ice published none of Art’s routes in the topo accompanying the article).

At the very beginning of development at El Cajon Mt., all of the men that were working on routes were supportive and friendly. This ended with a now infamous outburst by Art against Randy Leavitt. Randy Leavitt is a professional climber with countless world class and classic first assents all over the world. He is equally famous for his traditional climbs in Yosemite as he is for putting up some of the hardest sport climbs in the world.

There are loose rocks all over the cliff as there are on most granite blocks. Randy was cleaning a death flake off of one of the upper routes. The flake bounced far left as it descended hitting a bolt on one of Art’s routes, damaging it. Randy apologized, gave a replacement bolt and even offered to put it in. Art raged at Randy and the other climbers present for thirty or more minutes and threatened to start chopping bolts or “something else”. It was lame and ugly. Art then wrote a nasty complaint about Randy’s “excessive” cleaning at a “wilderness” crag to the Access Fund brandishing the title of head of San Diego Climbing Coalition. He wrote that he was worried about access to the crag being affected by Randy’s actions. Randy did his best to explain that he wasn’t going to leave loose rocks that could kill someone on his routes and that this is common practice when putting in new routes. After a letter writing campaign by those in support of Randy’s efforts at the crag, the head of the Access Fund ruled in favor of Randy and recommended that someone other than Art create an organization that was truly representative of the local climbing community and one that could actually be a forum for issues that arise in the future. This was definitely a first of many blows to Art’s ego.

When Art realized he would not be the “king” of this new crag and that the Access Fund wasn’t going to make the other climbers go away, he complained that Randy was moving too fast and drew a “line” on a photo of the cliff of where Randy, Chris, Brian and Glenn could develop and not develop routes. As silly as this seemed to the other’s at the time, Brian and Randy agreed to the line of development and have always held to that agreement.

Soon after the “line” agreement, Brian was injured in a motorcycle accident and was thought to be out for the season. Art immediately crossed the “line” he drew and started putting up routes that Brian had been planning to put up before he was injured on the left hand side of the wall. The hypocrisy on Art’s part was not missed. Everyone has to play by Art’s rules except Art.

That summer, Brian and Chris decided to put up a new route on the main wall at Mission Gorge. Two days later, Art chopped the upper half in front of Chris and many bystanders out climbing for the day. Art claimed that new routes at the Gorge had to be cleared and approved by the Climbing Coalition. Chris called his bluff knowing this was absolutely false and pointed out to Art that none of Art’s routes were ever approved by anyone other than Art. Art wrote a letter of complaint about Chris bolting next to a crack and repeated his assertion that new routes had to be approved and sent it to several Mission Gorge locals. Chris asked that the climbers first try out the route before passing judgment. Most of those climbers came to Chris’s defense after climbing the new route and realizing that the “crack” Art complained about, was actually an unprotectable and loose chimney around the corner from the route. Mission Control stands and is currently one of the more popular routes at the Gorge but you won’t find it listed on the “coalition” website even after being the first route to be approved by a coalition of climbers. This incident stung Art because it was one of the first times his false “coalition” and Mission Gorge development was publicly criticized as hypocritical. This incident also further poisoned Art and Brian’s relationship. Art told Brian that he wasn’t a Mission Gorge climber and that he had no right to put up a route there. Brian is a prolific climber and has put plenty of time in at the Gorge between trips to larger crags around the world.

Back at El Cajon Mt., Art started grumbling about traditionalist ground up style versus rap bolting. He was claiming that he and Gary were the only climbers doing all of their routes ground up. He was also claiming that there was a 40 year history of trad climbs that were being run over by the proliferation of sport climbs on the mountain. The facts of this matter are that there were only four traditional protected routes on the mountain. These were first climbed in the seventies and recorded in an old guide book for the area. The rest of them are first ascents by Brian. To this day there are only a handful of natural gear climbs due to the lack of natural protection the cliff allows. Art has zero traditional routes on that mountain and word has it that he has not climbed any of those that do exist. Instead, he has renamed Brian’s first ascents in his web guide with a notation of “probably first climbed sometime in the seventies.” This is a blatant lie and a petty jab at Brian because the seventies guide does not have these routes listed nor is there evidence that they were ever climbed before any of Brian’s first ascents. Art knows that without bolts it is hard to say that no one has ever climbed it before.

As far as the ground up ethic history that Art claims to be protecting at El Cajon Mt? These are the truths; every route Art has put up is a sport route. Every route he has put up has also been done using rivets. Art is not stancing and drilling as he moves up as he would like everyone to believe. Instead, he is drilling rivets, hanging on those to drill bolts and then puttying the holes left by the removed rivets. This method is arguably similar to the old bolt ladders that climbers used to use, only rivets make smaller holes. Years down the line as the putty disintegrates, the ugly rivet holes will reappear on all of Art’s “pure” ground up routes and his “ethics” will be exposed.

Take all of the issues that have developed over the past and place them on the current conflict at hand. Prior to the route being chopped and Brian’s drill and gear being stolen, Art emailed Brian about a route merge he was planning. Art wanted to use some of Brian’s preexisting anchors and move a few of his bolts around in order to make a new route of Art’s work. He would not only use Brian’s anchors but also the first bolt of Brian’s route. Without any actual agreement, Art did what he wanted to Brian’s route. Brian is one of the most agreeable people anyone could have the pleasure of meeting and knowing. Through all of the many negative interactions with Art, Brian has kept his patient composure and endlessly negotiates with Art only to get the raw end of the deal. The irony in chopping Shadowline is classic Art. It was only mere weeks before that Art was asking Brian to share anchors and moving his bolts for a new route. Shadowline does the exact same thing only it doesn’t move any of Art’s bolts and it wasn’t put up by Brian. All of the bolts on Shadowline were placed ground up style on stances by someone else, no rivets or hooks were used. Art assumed it was Brian’s route so he chopped it and stole his drill and gear. He further threatens “to chop two routes for any new route put up by Brian or anyone else”. The irony here is that if it was Brian’s route, it unquestionably should have remained on the same grounds that Art’s route that shares Brian’s bolts and anchors remains. It was also done in the pure ground up style that Art so furiously promotes.

The bolting hypocrisy is mere fodder when placed next to stealing someone else’s property and his verbal threats of harm. Due to the total cost of lost property, this is by law considered a felony. One must consider Art’s impulsive behavior and multiple displays of screaming tantrums when he feels he can’t control others at “his” cliffs. Art continues to grasp at straws, lose friends and become ever increasingly desperate in his actions and his threats. Enough is enough! The community needs to call him to task. Hopefully his threats will remain idle. This letter has been written for when they are carried out.

Sincerely,
Stacey Stevenson and Chris Hubbard

P.S. At the time of this writing Art has taken the El Cajon Mt. webguide and any links to it offline. This is worrisome at best considering what happened last time he did this. Be watchful for snakes, mountain lions, and any raging mustached fellas in the bushes on the way to the mountain.

*************************************************************
Routes Chopped at El Cajon Mountain

December 2005
To San Diego Climbers:

Hello and Happy Holidays.

Please bear with me as I attempt to explain the sad state of affairs at El Cajon Mtn. these days. Many of you enjoy the wonderful climbing experience El Cajon Mtn. has come to offer us. It is this unique experience of yours that stands to be destroyed by local climber Art Messier threatening to chop all of the routes off of the cliff.

The context of this letter may seem familiar to some of you as not so long ago a fellow San Diego climber, Dave Kennedy, found himself in a similar situation with Art Messier and felt compelled to write you about it. Art, the self proclaimed "mayor" of Mission Gorge, felt threatened by Dave developing new routes in Mission Gorge. Art took it upon himself to chop Dave's routes and threatened to chop every bolt that Dave placed in San Diego County. Art's hostility resulted in bolting restrictions in the Gorge and certainly did little to foster any sense of climbing community in San Diego. He repeated these very same actions with Chris Hubbard just last year. Some of you know Art through his website, San Diego Coalition.com, where he has done positive things like organize trail improvement days at local crags. What you may not know is how he has used this "coalition of one" to speak on your behalf while bad mouthing and ridiculing local climbers to such national organizations as the Access Fund. How does this pertain to El Cajon Mountain? For the moment, let it highlight the unfriendly, better said, hostile behavior he has demonstrated to San Diego climbers in the past.

The last four seasons at El Cajon Mountain have been, for the most part, an amazing, positive experience of wonderful new friends built around the incredible new climbs the cliff continued (and continues) to offer. I happened to be first upon the scene of recent new route activity at the cliff and came with no baggage (San Diego climbing scene drama) attached. Opposing styles were ignored in favor of fostering new friendships and the positive energy was infectious. All except for the ominous dark cloud of Art Messier. From the beginning he was the only one telling anyone what should be done and how to do it. His comments were respected until they became rude and malicious at which point they became ignored. His personal insults and attacks soon followed, even his chopping of someone else's route, just last year. Like a bad nightmare we all hoped he would just go away. Until now.

Early in November of this year, a new route, Shadowline, was put in up the center of the cliff. Shadowline incorporated the second belay and first two bolts of Art and Gary's climb, Being and Nothingness, after which it stepped left, crossed the Center Direct and finished far above into the 5.9 arête of the Center Block. I had hoped to use Art's comprehensive online guide available on his website to reference the pertinent climbs but the entire guide and any mention of it whatsoever have mysteriously disappeared from his website recently. I will do so anyway in hopes that enough of you have a copy of the guide to share amongst each other. The climbing on Shadowline was thought provoking, varied, and tremendously exposed. Its 10b grade was accessible to any aspiring 5.10 climber and its value as a stellar and hard to come by warm up climb into more difficult climbs above was a blessing. The route was assessed by sixty years of climbing experience shared between four different, diverse climbers before it was bolted. Why, then, on Friday, November 11 when Art and Gary arrived at the base of the cliff to see two climbers on the recently bolted Shadowline, did Art fly into a fit of rage, demanding that Gary immediately chop the route with him? Gary had enough. Art's "his way or the highway" attitude and outrageously hypocritical behavior was more than Gary cared to put up with anymore, and no longer cares to be associated with Art after years of climbing together on the cliff. Within the next few hours, Art was seen entering and exiting the cave used by all of us to store route developing equipment. The cave was visited by others before and after Art that day, and in the time between, "the Closet" (as it was affectionately called) was completely ransacked, and everyone's storage bags were ripped off their hangers and emptied about the cave. In the afternoon, shortly after Art left from the wall it was discovered that my drill, hammer, bolts with attendant hardware and wrenches, fanny pack and bolt bag (nearly a $1,000 all together) were stolen. It is no coincidence that alongside thousands of dollars of cams, nuts, sets of quick draws, and brand new ropes ransacked in the closet that day, the only things to turn up missing were the equipment necessary in placing or replacing the bolts Art was threatening to chop and has since then done so. It is to be expected that fellow climbers may disagree with each other from time to time, but to publicly ridicule them, chop their routes and now steal from them...where is it going to end Art? He has recently escalated his threats to "I know where you live and where your girlfriend works".

Shortly after Thanksgiving, Chris, Gary and I ventured out to the cliff simply for a day of climbing. We were bummed to find that Art had recently chopped all of the bolts off of Shadowline. A few difficult days of route setting, without having rested after a wall in Zion over Thanksgiving, and warmer than I felt like tolerating temperatures all conspired to send me back down the trail unusually early in the day. I encountered Art, suspiciously alone, at the trailhead, a pair of binoculars strung around his neck. Bird watching? More like spying on anyone climbing on the cliff while "monitoring" the trailhead, as he is frequently known to do. Without word, his greeting to me was, "For every bolt you place in the cliff I'll be chopping two. For every route you put in, I'll chop two. You wanna try and replace it or put in another route, I'll chop four more. I didn't steal your drill but I'm glad somebody did!" What?!

"Exactly what have I done to offend you Art?" He contends I have taken it upon myself to put bolts "wherever you damn please", over bolting the cliff and "disrespecting 40 years of traditional climbing history at El Cajon Mountain!" Huh!? The hypocrisy of Art's statements is appalling. Exactly how many bolts has he placed in El Cajon Mountain? The most updated version of his guide was full of lines filling in the blanks, un-started climbs he claims as "projects" of his own. To view Shadowline, we found ourselves adjacent to the "Sixty-meter slab" on the lower right side at the start of Walking the Line (rte. 87). Nowhere on the cliff do routes give the appearance of being more over bolted than right there off the ground. For grid bolting's sake, Walking the Line climbs straight sideways! Art has placed all of the bolts on the Sixty-meter slab and hundreds more all over the cliff.

The history of climbing on El Cajon Mtn. is not extensive, and is far from traditional. Roughly a route a decade since the '60's has been established and recorded on the cliff. One was a rap bolted sport climb, and the majority of them have several bolt placements on them, some of them in order to avoid perfectly protectable, albeit, strenuous and awkward crack systems. Here is a brief "then and now" of the earliest recorded routes on the cliff. From left to right, the ramp he calls Crook Book (rte. 1) on the far left end of the wall, "probably done back in the 70's, standard rack", according to Art's guide, and used to approach another once completely traditional climb, Blue Sky (rte. 5), is now graced by none other than Art Messier's bolts from bottom to top. Route #16/24 on the Lower left side was once the start of the rap bolted sport route that wandered back and forth up the left side of the wall. Where the route traversed hard right I added route # 16, without altering the original route whatsoever. Later, Art came along and in bolting Cause for Pause (#17) took it upon himself to replace the original bolts by removing them altogether, "relocating" them to better suit his "new" route. Nearby, route #18, begins in a striking grey groove where some old trad-hardman had to solo 25' up the groove to gain a stance in order to place the obvious ¼" bolt. In a sea of new route potential, Art came along and added bolts along the entire length of the grey groove, completely disregarding this as one of the more historic, traditional routes at the cliff, even while an old school ECM climber, having come up to have a look around, stood on the ground, directly expressing his discontent to Art over his actions. Who exactly is disrespecting the history of climbing on El Cajon Mtn.?

Art is far from a staunch traditional climber on ECM. I scoured the cliff's intermittent crack systems, and continue to do so, long before bolting many of the sport routes it holds now, climbing several proud trad route onsights along the way. "Exactly how many times have you ever climbed onto that cliff, Art, without clipping any bolts?" I asked him recently. The question proved too difficult for him to offer up any answer, unable to change the subject, or come up with another personal insult towards me. I tried a simpler question, "Just how many of the trad routes have you climbed on the cliff Art?" again... no reply.

More hypocritically alarming than anything else is the Center Direct (rte 70/71). It is this climb, according to Art, that we blatantly disrespected by bolting Shadowline across its second pitch. By bolting across it I do not mean bolts next to the dihedrals crack, but located inconveniently out of the way of gear placements within the dihedral. Bolts placed in a manner no different than Art had already done so on the first pitch of Being and Nothingness (rte. 76), where bolts come within arms reach of critical gear placements on the first pitch of the Center Direct. Nor any different than the bolts Art placed on route # 72, that cross the very start of Center Directs second pitch.


To my knowledge, no one involved in this ordeal has threatened Art in any way. It is clear he is not acting out of justifiable defense for some longstanding climbing ethics at El Cajon Mtn., but with some spiteful, malicious intent masked behind a thin veil of hypocritical behavior. Rather than invite the community to weigh in on Shadowline's credibility as a modern route on ECM, or our community's ethics in general, he asserts his right to remove any route in the same manner anyone has the right to put them in. Shadowline is not the issue at hand, but every route on the cliff, as he is threatening to chop them all, and even worse yet, he has stated how he intends to bring the land managers into the situation with hopes of having access to El Cajon Mtn. closed. "Routes are coming down out there!" "I'll chop the whole damn cliff!" "I want you to understand how much I enjoy conflict and animosity; I get off on this stuff. Are you ready for me to get insane?!" These were just a few of his recent comments to me.

Will confronting him yourselves in person, thru his website, or as Asandh at rockclimbing .com encourage him to act in a more socially responsible manner?
I do not know. I do know that if he does not do so, San Diego's climbing community will be worse off because of him.
Sincerely,

Brian Spiewak


lofstromc


Dec 15, 2005, 4:36 AM
Post #2 of 65 (33301 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 1, 2005
Posts: 528

Re: El Cajon Mtn. - Bolt war. Threats. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

As a former SD resident/climber, El Cajon Mtn. quickly became my favorite place to climb. I hope this gets resolved.

As for Messier, if that stuff he is saying is true, then he has already proven himself to be the one that people should doubt and scrutinize.

By the way, I wanted to look at some of his posts on RC.com about El Cajon Mtn...quess what, the majority (maybe not all, I didn't look at all 40+ pages) of his posts have been edited and replaced with an emoticon. Who knows why?

Good luck


crotch


Dec 15, 2005, 6:38 AM
Post #3 of 65 (33301 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 15, 2003
Posts: 1277

Re: El Cajon Mtn. - Bolt war. Threats. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I have been climbing in San Diego for 7 years now. Every bolt war in that time has had one common element, Art Messier.

What bums me out the most about this situation is that Brian Spiewak, a soft-spoken man who has never said a bad word about anyone, who has been a generous friend to all San Diego climbers, a guy who would never hurt someone by words or actions, has by circumstance been sucked into this conflict by Art's toxic personality.

I hate to see Brian handle this burden on his own, and I think it's time that the true San Diego climbing community stands together to show Art where we stand on this issue.

Art should be put on notice that chopping routes at El Cajon Mtn. will not be tolerated.


soulsurfer


Dec 15, 2005, 7:28 AM
Post #4 of 65 (33301 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 84

Re: El Cajon Mtn. - Bolt war. Threats. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I read the 2 letters from Brian and Chris.

If possible why don't both sides state their case. As it is now it is very one sided. I am trying to be objective as possible and I think to get the whole story you need both sides making their arguement to the San Diego climbing community.

With respect to El Cajon Mtn, there does seem to be a blurring of lines there. I personally like seeing less link-ups with more space between routes. Basically I don't like squeese jobs. That is just my opinion and it bears no weight what so ever since I am not a local by any means at El Cajon.


travelin_light


Dec 15, 2005, 8:06 AM
Post #5 of 65 (33301 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 11, 2004
Posts: 93

Re: El Cajon Mtn. - Bolt war. Threats. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

It sounds like ECM climbing is in serious jeopardy if these threats are really true, especially the one about involving the landowners. I would gladly pitch in a few bucks to try to get your equipment replaced. Its not fair for you guys to have to put all that equipment on the line just to have it get ripped off. Please post an address or P.O. Box if your interested. Most importantly, thanks for bringing this into light. Most of the people in the climbing community here in San Diego, including myself, have never heard of half of these incidents.


dingus


Dec 15, 2005, 8:24 AM
Post #6 of 65 (33301 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398

Re: El Cajon Mtn. - Bolt war. Threats. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
By the way, I wanted to look at some of his posts on RC.com about El Cajon Mtn...quess what, the majority (maybe not all, I didn't look at all 40+ pages) of his posts have been edited and replaced with an emoticon. Who knows why?

Good luck

What's his screen name?

DMT


overlord


Dec 15, 2005, 8:31 AM
Post #7 of 65 (33301 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 14120

Re: El Cajon Mtn. - Bolt war. Threats. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
By the way, I wanted to look at some of his posts on RC.com about El Cajon Mtn...quess what, the majority (maybe not all, I didn't look at all 40+ pages) of his posts have been edited and replaced with an emoticon. Who knows why?

Good luck

What's his screen name?

DMT

in the OP its mentioned to be "asandh".

sounds like a really disturbed individual, but i would still like to hear hes side of the argument.


healyje


Dec 15, 2005, 8:34 AM
Post #8 of 65 (33301 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204

Re: El Cajon Mtn. - Bolt war. Threats. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:

What's his screen name?

DMT

Ha, you guys down there are in for it now, if anyone can help sort it all out it's our very own Minister of Anarchy and Chaos, Sir Dingus U.R. Toast - all rise - this court is now session. Your witness...


dingus


Dec 15, 2005, 8:37 AM
Post #9 of 65 (33301 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398

Re: El Cajon Mtn. - Bolt war. Threats. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

What's his screen name?

DMT

Ha, you guys down there are in for it now, if anyone can help sort it all out it's our very own Minister of Anarchy and Chaos, Sir Dingus U.R. Toast - all rise - this court is now session. Your witness...

Now that was just mean.

DMT


healyje


Dec 15, 2005, 8:37 AM
Post #10 of 65 (33301 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204

Re: El Cajon Mtn. - Bolt war. Threats. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
in the OP its mentioned to be "asandh".

I believe the Judge is, well, not exactly 'intimately' familar, but knows said individual's posting history well enough...


[Edit: On looking at the scale of asandh's destruction of evidence I motion he forthwith be held in contempt of forum...]


travelin_light


Dec 15, 2005, 8:46 AM
Post #11 of 65 (33301 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 11, 2004
Posts: 93

Re: El Cajon Mtn. - Bolt war. Threats. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

wait this isn't a troll is it? no, seriously though, this guy is gonna sit down with his coffee one of these days to blast some noobs and end up spitting coffee all over the place when he reads this shit.


caughtinside


Dec 15, 2005, 10:00 AM
Post #12 of 65 (33301 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603

Re: El Cajon Mtn. - Bolt war. Threats. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

That is crazy. Good luck putting a stop to the nonsense.


josephgdawson


Dec 15, 2005, 10:40 AM
Post #13 of 65 (33301 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 19, 2004
Posts: 303

Re: El Cajon Mtn. - Bolt war. Threats. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Thanks for taking the time to write that up. I think sunshine is always the best disinfectent and I am glad to see you use names rather than oblique references.


codhands


Dec 15, 2005, 11:19 AM
Post #14 of 65 (33301 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 21, 2005
Posts: 499

Re: El Cajon Mtn. - Bolt war. Threats. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

That's just weird forty some pages of posts with nothing but smileys -

all work and no play makes jack a dull boy. all work and no play makes jack a dull boy. all work and no play makes jack a dull boy. all work and no play makes jack a dull boy. all work and no play makes jack a dull boy. all work and no play makes jack a dull boy.
all work and no play makes jack a dull boy.
all work and no play makes jack a dull boy.
all work and no play makes jack a dull boy........

:D

(edited for smiley insertion)

thanks j_ung for reminding me that this was allowed.


Partner j_ung


Dec 15, 2005, 11:43 AM
Post #15 of 65 (33301 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690

Re: El Cajon Mtn. - Bolt war. Threats. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I have no idea what's going on on the ground in SD, but I need to mention that all RC.com users own the content of their posts and are welcome to delete or edit any of it they wish.


healyje


Dec 15, 2005, 12:01 PM
Post #16 of 65 (33301 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204

Re: El Cajon Mtn. - Bolt war. Threats. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

This was a discussion topic on ST relative to the idea that posts become community property once a thread ages past a certain point. By that I mean posts past a certain age are locked against both editing and deleting...


hasbeen


Dec 15, 2005, 12:02 PM
Post #17 of 65 (33301 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 16, 2003
Posts: 543

Re: El Cajon Mtn. - Bolt war. Threats. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

posted twice.


hasbeen


Dec 15, 2005, 12:02 PM
Post #18 of 65 (33301 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 16, 2003
Posts: 543

Re: El Cajon Mtn. - Bolt war. Threats. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
That's just weird forty some pages of posts with nothing but smileys -

all work and no play makes jack a dull boy. all work and no play makes jack a dull boy. all work and no play makes jack a dull boy. all work and no play makes jack a dull boy. all work and no play makes jack a dull boy. all work and no play makes jack a dull boy.
all work and no play makes jack a dull boy.
all work and no play makes jack a dull boy.
all work and no play makes jack a dull boy........

funny. true. scary. potentially quite dangerous. reading those letters screamed 'bi-polar'. perhaps largo, our resident psych PhD (did you finish this up, John?) could weigh in with his thoughts. i've seen this behavior pattern before. it can be, let's just say, difficult. i feel for you folks down in san diego and can now see why my buddy jeff was hesitent to get involved with anything at el cajon mtn until things 'settled down'. best of luck sorting this out.


majid_sabet


Dec 15, 2005, 12:10 PM
Post #19 of 65 (33301 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 8390

Re: El Cajon Mtn. - Bolt war. Threats. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I am glade I left San Diego some 22 years ago, sounds like same surfers are climbing now.


crotch


Dec 15, 2005, 1:09 PM
Post #20 of 65 (33301 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 15, 2003
Posts: 1277

Re: El Cajon Mtn. - Bolt war. Threats. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

aasd asd


crotch


Dec 15, 2005, 1:57 PM
Post #21 of 65 (33301 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 15, 2003
Posts: 1277

Re: El Cajon Mtn. - Bolt war. Threats. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

bump


jv


Dec 15, 2005, 3:46 PM
Post #22 of 65 (33301 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 26, 2003
Posts: 363

Re: El Cajon Mtn. - Bolt war. Threats. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Before we rush to judgment, let me point out that we have only heard from aggrieved parties, and heard nothing from Art or Gary. The history Chris and Brian recount is interesting, but I think it would be better if we limited the discussion to what happened to Shadowline, and the events just before and after that. Here's what I gather from the two letters.

Shadowline was a completed route that was climbed at least once (possibly more) before it was chopped. So the first ascent principle is invoked. It should not have been modified without permission of the FA party.

It appears that Shadowline was put up in traditional style, from the ground up, drilling bolts from stances and not from hooks or any other form of aid. That is admirable, but not a requirement of any new route at El Cajon Mountain. The route shares an anchor with and crosses another route, but is felt to be an independent line with real merit by Brian and some other experienced but unnamed climbers.

Brian says that Art was most offended that Shadowline crossed Center Direct, but the substance of this objection is still not clear to me. It does not sound like Shadowline encroached so offensively on Center Direct as to warrant chopping.

The route was chopped after Art had a meltdown and a falling out with Gary. The Closet was later ransacked and Brian's drill, some of his bolts, hangers, and some tools were stolen. All of the other gear in the Closet was left. Art said some things to Brian that seem to confirm that Art chopped the route, took Brian's gear, and is ready to engage in a bolt war, but there were no witnesses to these events. Art had motive and opportunity to carry out these acts.

I have met, talked to, and in some cases climbed with all of these guys and I like them all. But it's difficult not to jump to conclusions. I am going to try to keep an open mind. I would like to hear Art's side of the story.


pbjosh


Dec 15, 2005, 4:19 PM
Post #23 of 65 (33301 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 22, 2002
Posts: 1518

Re: El Cajon Mtn. - Bolt war. Threats. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Sounds like a bummer of a situation, whatever the details are.

It would be interesting to hear Art's side of this.

Dave Kennedy is not a completely innocent soul in past climbing incidences in San Diego, most notoriously his attempts to publish a Canon Tajo guidebook.

In any case, I think the number of routes at El Cajon Mountain should be watched. It is already grid bolted in places which lends confusion and greatly reduces the value and aesthetic of each route. Not that that's an argument for chopping or any support for either side, just my view of the situation. It's a big, awesome, beautiful piece of rock and there are places that within a 30 foot by 30 foot area probably have 20-30 bolts already, like the 4 or is it 5 or is it 6? routes leaving the 4+ sets of anchors on the ledge system to the right of triton tower...


potreroed


Dec 15, 2005, 5:17 PM
Post #24 of 65 (33301 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 30, 2001
Posts: 1454

Re: El Cajon Mtn. - Bolt war. Threats. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Phew!! I'm glad I live in Mexico!!


tnmountainman


Dec 15, 2005, 6:01 PM
Post #25 of 65 (33301 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 18, 2005
Posts: 99

Re: El Cajon Mtn. - Bolt war. Threats. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I have always heard that the folks out there in California were a little....um....different (yeah that is the word I was searching for)!! :lol:

First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Climbing Information : Regional Discussions

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?
$40.46 (10% off)
$62.96 (10% off)
$53.96 (10% off)
$89.96 (10% off)



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook