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trenchdigger
Dec 23, 2005, 8:18 PM
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Hey, just curious about some of the old school El Cajon routes. Though I'm far from an old school climber (you were climbing at El Cajon long before I was born) I appreciate the older traditional lines and, unlike most climbers there now, regularly haul a rack up to the crag and have done many of the traditional routes there. Which are the old-school El Cajon Mtn routes? Who were the folks that climbed there in those days?
I met Art a few months ago before all of this bolt-war crap came up. He seemed a decent guy with good intentions, but I questioned the "traditional" ethic that he preached for El Cajon Mtn. On the routes of his that I've climbed, his bolting is anything but traditional. But who am I to argue? I've been climbing for less than 3 years and have never placed a bolt in my life. I do think that your statement that El Cajon Mtn has been raped is a relatively accurate statement though. The rate at which bolts sprouted up there is astonishing. I truly hope that any further development comes about with a bit more forethought.
I do, however, appreciate El Cajon Mtn for what it is. There is some very fun climbing there - both on older lines and newer lines. With Art's guide gone, I plan on working on a new guide for the area that I plan to distribute for free. With your approval, I'd like to include any history you can provide. If you'd rather I don't include anything about El Cajon Mtn's past, I'd still like to hear anything you have to say, simply out of personal curiosity, and would be happy to leave anything you like out of the guide.
Thanks for your input on the subject.
Happy Holidays...
~Adam~
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hosebeats
Dec 23, 2005, 8:57 PM
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While a friend and I were nearing the top of Leonids my girlfriend was leading the first pitch of a 10a at the base of the cliff. She pulled a hold off the wall and took a decent 10 footer which spooked the hell out of her. Art was at the base and witnessed her come off. I thought someone had died from the noise she made. For a small Asian girl she has the ability to scream like a banshee. Everyone watching her had a good laugh once she announced that she was ok and Art commented jokingly that she had just ruined his new route. When we met him he seemed like a decent enough fellow.
However, chopping someones route is a dickheaded action. Argue what you want but going up there and destroying something that someone put a lot of effort into is stupid and child like. If he can't express his feelings in a more adult fashion then he deserves to be treated like a child.
More importantly he threatened those individuals and their girlfriends. In any situation I can think of that is never acceptable. Chopping someones route is silly but threatening their girlfriend is something else. Perhaps I'm not the nicest person but he would have gotten a boot to the ass a few seconds after that comment left his mouth.
I hope that Art comes to his senses and tries to make peace with whatever is angering him. I enjoyed his website and used his guides at El Cajon and Mission Gorge. For the betterment of the San Diego climbers we can't have a fight amongst ourselves.
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esoteric1
Dec 23, 2005, 9:32 PM
Post #53 of 65
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I cant immagine myself going up there too much anymore either, Im done having an opinion anymore, its not my style of climbing anyways.
overbolted, squeeze jobbed, a long hike, crowded on weekends....ill stick to josh and tahquits.
have at it folks....
mark
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fracture
Dec 24, 2005, 1:27 AM
Post #54 of 65
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In reply to: Everyone watching her had a good laugh once she announced that she was ok and Art commented jokingly that she had just ruined his new route.
WTF is with sport bolters who take every single opportunity to mention they bolted a given route you are climbing?
Sorry, thanks for installing the bolts, but please STFU.
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ihuang
Jan 1, 2006, 6:15 AM
Post #55 of 65
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In reply to: I cant immagine myself going up there too much anymore either, Im done having an opinion anymore, its not my style of climbing anyways. overbolted, squeeze jobbed, a long hike, crowded on weekends....ill stick to josh and tahquits. have at it folks.... mark
I have done a number of routes at ECM and I would not say any of them are overbolted. The hike is enjoyable if you are not in a rush and keeps the crowd in check. Most importantly, the multi-pitch experience is nowhere to be found locally, especially in the winter.
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rockgar
Jan 10, 2006, 2:29 AM
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Stumbled on this thread because I am scheduling my annual trip to San Diego and I always get in some climbing. I am from the Atlanta area and we only wish we had the rock that you guys have available. The last thing that rock climbers need is bullshit amongst themselves, we have a tough enough time with a public that doesn't understand us. I have probably climbed with most of the people that are being discussed (since I have climbed S.D. annually over winter for 15+years) and I could say good things about all. Pull together, get this shit out of the public domain, and get it handled.
BTW If I could vote on it there would be no bolts anywhere, but who asked me.
ROCKGAR
p.s. way too many guns in the south for this type stuff :)
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freaking102
Jan 21, 2006, 1:47 AM
Post #57 of 65
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Wow! I'm surprised to read about such a melodrama going on in my town. I'm an alpinist, but not much of a non-alpine rock climber (non-alpine rock climbing was my youthful pursuit long ago in a land far away). I'm just dumbfounded by the local bolting/sport climbing drama. In my youth we climbed using whatever removable pro could be placed, and we couldn't be bothered wasting time placing bolts -- man, all that time driving bolts was time we could be climbing. And what is this arrogance that the first ascender somehow owns the route? I've climbed alot of lines in my life where I had no idea if I was a first acent -- and I couldn't have cared less whether I was. I certainly wouldn't tell the next person how to climb the route. This sport is about discovery, not following arbitrary rules set out by the "first."
And I don't understand why you are bolting land that isn't owned by you. The way I see it, if you don't own the land yourself, then you shouldn't be littering or staking the land. You should stick to climbing routes that don't require leaving fixed features that ruin the sense of discovery for the next person.
Just my 2 cents.
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travelin_light
Feb 10, 2006, 7:31 PM
Post #58 of 65
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WTF???
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markguycan
Feb 13, 2006, 1:38 AM
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Who cares WHO gets to bolt up the local choss pile anyway? A generation from now the first acensionists will be gone AND FORGOTTEN!! besides that the bolts will probably be replaced ( if the rock/route was any good to begin with) and if not the crag will probably be eroding it's way to the ocean!
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waterman
Feb 17, 2006, 12:18 AM
Post #60 of 65
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I don't have alot of experience climbing in San Diego, but i did get a chance to hit up a number or pitches on El Cajon and in Mission Gorge over winter break and the rock is f*ing beautiful. Coming from Va it was like a dream just to pull down on some quality sport routes of El Cajon, not to meantion the exileration from being in such a secluded area (at least it looks that way). MY point is you guys have one hell of a resourse out there and its a shame it has to be tainted like this. Nobody owns the damn rock (except for the state i guess), we simply chose to self regulate according to a certain set of rules out of respect for other climbers in hopes that the favor will be returned. If even a fraction of the story is true, Art has relinquished any right to the cooperation from the climbing community that we all enjoy and work to mainain. I find that extrodinarily sad as i would kill to have El Cajon in my back yard. Anyone who takes to enforcing their our self constructed crag bylaws this irrationaly need to put on their big girl panties, plug a tampon and get the fuck over it...
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hopkinsed
May 26, 2006, 3:32 AM
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I've been climbing since 1990 or so. I learned formalized rock climbing skills at Dartmouth College, my alma mater, from local guru John Joline. There has been words of bolt wars like this, in the past, in various places, but they are usually temporary and harmless.
What surprises me about this series of events is the actual threats that were made by the bolt-cutter against the other climbers. Eliminating him from the climbing community is not a productive response, however, clearly, if he is a climber, he will likely climb again.
If I had been in Chris's shoes I would have reported Art to the cops ... since there isn't anything illegal about cutting bolts, there really isn't any actual action that could be taken, even if one's ire was high enough, that wouldn't have repurcussions on the irie, if you get my drift.
However, theft of equipment, and physical threats are illegal. Now, since the shared equipment was stored in a cave with no locks and no clear ownership, it would clearly be difficult if not impossible to prove theft. So whomever was clueless enough to leave their equipment out in a public place was naive, and it sucks, and it's a lame bummer, but s* happens sometimes and you gotta suck it up.
When I first moved to San Diego the Coalition website was a fantastic resource, and I appreciate the partner page, because I met two great people from here, Lara Dvorczak, and Stacey Turner.
Stacey and I did some climbing at El Cajon apparently a week or so before the bolt war happened, and it's a great area.
Coming from trad climing and the east coast, I have always found bolt wars to be ridiculous and stupid unless it occurs in national park territory and then the Feds have some call on the issue. However, El Cajon is not in a national park, and I am not sure exactly what body of work is responsible for managing the land and the hiking trails, but cutting bolts that are not dangerous bolts is not only stupid but could cause future problems.
As an engineer I understand the structural strength of materials. The vibration and friction of drilling a hole in rock can introduce microscopical cracks and impurities into the rock at varying depths.
As I become more accustomed to the plethora of sport routes in California, I am learning to begin to trust bolts and bolted anchors more and more. Usually the bolts are placed by intelligent climbers with innocent and pure rationalizations for their placement.
However, we have no formalized Government of Climbing, and that is a welcome thing. We also have no Jedi of climbing, and clearly, Art's movements are edging towards the Dark Side.
While placing bolts that cross other bolted routes could potentially offend the original bolter, by removing them, they actually endanger the rest of us who don't particularly feel any allegiance towards either bolter, and could frankly give a damn who the hell put them up in the first place, other than they are there and they are easier to clip into than trying to place a micronut while sketched out on some gnarly face climb, where most bolts usually are.
The structural damage to the rock in the vicinity of the bolts, created by placing a bolt, clipping it, and then having to place a second bolt, is clearly greater than placing the original bolt by at least a factor of two, and quite possibly more. You'd have to do some controlled experimentation at a low height to prove this.
It's pretty hard to pull a bolt out of good solid rock, but I have been on a team which on the challenge of our instructor were able to pull an ice screw out of a frozen waterfall, pulling with all of our weight, about 6 of us. That thing shot out like a bullet. One could question the intelligence of this as well, but climbers are climbers, and sometimes we all do some silly things.
Anyways, the point here that I am making is that regardless of who's allegiance to who, the coaltion website was a great resource.
I think that Art should not be alienated from the climbing community, considering his past contributions.
However, if he feels like threatening any more climbers I invite him to do so at my Aikido class, in Solana Beach, in front of our Sensei, or better yet at the San Diego Aikikai in front of Chiba Shihan, who is 8th Dan. I'm sure we can straighten him out.
Anyways, I encourage everyone involved to try to put this in their memories, and move forward.
I for one, would be willing to mediate between these tyrants to attempt to breathe some reason into the air.
If Art would be willing to give someone the climbing coalition web pages it really was a great resource for San Diego, that Rock Climbing Dot Com can't quite touch. The maps and directions were wonderful for me, having moved to San Diego only last Fall. If no one else is willing I would volunteer to take over this site, if anyone knows how to get in touch with Art.
Anyways, I wish you all best and happy climbing.
Sincerely,
Edward E. Hopkins
Dartmouth College '92
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rob_hynes
May 26, 2006, 3:46 AM
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Jesus Christ Art get a life and leave climbing to the climbers.
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crotch
May 26, 2006, 4:03 AM
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In reply to: However, if he feels like threatening any more climbers I invite him to do so at my Aikido class, in Solana Beach, in front of our Sensei, or better yet at the San Diego Aikikai in front of Chiba Shihan, who is 8th Dan. I'm sure we can straighten him out.
I bitch slapped Chib a Shihan, when he was a 6th Dan, like a bitch. When he was 7th Dan, I made him drink my snot. 8th Dan is no match for flying crane style.
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hopkinsed
May 26, 2006, 4:07 AM
Post #64 of 65
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Registered: Apr 24, 2006
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Ha ha!
Well perhaps you are volunteering then to server as our fearless leader in charge of quashing the evil notions of the bolt cutter?
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other
Mar 5, 2010, 7:48 AM
Post #65 of 65
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Registered: Aug 22, 2008
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Did law enforcement like the SD sheriffs dept. ever get involved because of the property theft, threats etc? If so what was the outcome? If not, why? If the answer was wanting to keep it among climbers and private, that is not acceptable.
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