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just what is a newton?
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oldguy53


Feb 12, 2006, 10:06 AM
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just what is a newton?
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I don't want to know about mass, gravity and lifting, just a a quick convert factor into app. lbs. of strength. thanks


inthewoods78


Feb 12, 2006, 10:14 AM
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1 kilonewton = 224.808943 pounds force


scrapedape


Feb 12, 2006, 10:22 AM
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In other words, a newton is 0.22 lbs.


Partner euroford


Feb 12, 2006, 10:22 AM
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they are not cookies, they are fruit and cake.


kubi


Feb 12, 2006, 10:43 AM
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http://www.google.com/...t+1+newton+to+pounds


anykineclimb


Feb 12, 2006, 10:57 AM
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Newton?

which one???

http://www.pbs.org/...os/acl1023992597.jpg
Juice?


http://jam.canoe.ca/...005/01/13/newton.jpg
Wayne?


http://www.healthierliving.org/...graphics/newtons.jpg
and Fig...

I don't know about this nonsense...

http://www.nabiscoworld.com/...ons/dessert2_fsi.jpg


woj12_16


Feb 12, 2006, 10:58 AM
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A newton is unit of force, metric style. There's an equation out there, developed by Sir Isaac Newton, which says force is equal to mass times acceleration. So if you weighed 200 pounds, that means your mass is about 90 kilograms. Acceleration is 9.81 meters/second squared. That means that force you'll create falling through the air is less than 900 newtons, so your caribeaner thats rated for 25000 newtons would surely hold you. And that's pretty much all you need to know.


sungam


Feb 12, 2006, 11:29 AM
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F=ma
1 newton of force (F) is the force required to accelerate one kilonewton (m) at 1metre per second per second/ ms^-2 (a)
that is to say, as you fall, times your weight by 9.81, double that (due to tthe force from your anchor on the other end of the rope) and you have the resultant force applied to the piece of pro. however, by using the equation
Ft=Mv-Mu as you increase the time of the exchange of momentum(mv-mu), by use of screamers, dynamic belaying, rope stretch, etc, the force applied is reduced.

-Magnus


jsoper


Feb 12, 2006, 11:30 AM
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Newton= kg * m/(s^2)


sactownclimber


Feb 12, 2006, 1:08 PM
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. . . Acceleration is 9.81 meters/second squared. That means that force you'll create falling through the air is less than 900 newtons, so your caribeaner thats rated for 25000 newtons would surely hold you. And that's pretty much all you need to know.

Ummm . . . no. My physics is pretty rusty by I know you can't just multiply 90 kg by 9.8 and says that's the force.


hammerhead


Feb 12, 2006, 1:45 PM
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I thought it was the force necessary to move a kilo one meter in one second..................


sungam


Feb 12, 2006, 2:00 PM
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it's the force to accelerate 1 kg at 1ms^-2
so in 1 s it would be going 1ms^-1

-Magnus


greenketch


Feb 12, 2006, 2:06 PM
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I don't want to know about mass, gravity and lifting, just a a quick convert factor into app. lbs. of strength. thanks

The short answer is that a Kn is 224 lbs.

The long answer is that they are not the same. One cannot say that I don't want to know about baking I just want to know how many brownies in a piece of cake. A kilo newton is a measure of force applied, a lb is a measure of mass. An item such as a biner can hold a certain amount of mass in a static condition (10 Kn is roughly 2250 lbs) but a weight in motion would break that same biner (a 1000lb weight moving at 30 miles per hour from a short fall).

It would be good to understand the differences and as you progress as a climber one should understand just how those changes occur.


dutyje


Feb 12, 2006, 2:27 PM
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The Newton (aka Fig Roll in Europe) is a soft, cake-like cookie (biscuit) filled with fig jam. A patented and trademarked product of Nabisco, Fig Newtons originated in the United States and have since spread across the world. They have traditionally been rather unique compared to similar products offered by competitors, but in recent times rivals have arisen, such as Wal-Mart's "Fig Bars", which are sold under its Great Value brand.

The Fig Newton was created in 1891 by Charles M. Roser of the Kennedy Biscuit Company, a Massachusetts-based bakery. The company named many of their products after surrounding communities. The Fig Newton was named after nearby Newton, Massachusetts. It was first simply called the Newton, but the name was changed to Fig Newton in 1898.

The Kennedy Biscuit Company merged with other regional bakeries in 1898 to form the National Biscuit Company, which later became Nabisco. The cookie is now produced by Nabisco.

The machine that makes the cookie consists of a funnel within a funnel. The inner funnel contains the filling, and the outer funnel contains the dough. The machine expresses a long length of filled cookie, which is then baked, cut into smaller pieces, and packaged.


kubi


Feb 12, 2006, 3:41 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I don't want to know about mass, gravity and lifting, just a a quick convert factor into app. lbs. of strength. thanks

The short answer is that a Kn is 224 lbs.

The long answer is that they are not the same. One cannot say that I don't want to know about baking I just want to know how many brownies in a piece of cake. A kilo newton is a measure of force applied, a lb is a measure of mass. An item such as a biner can hold a certain amount of mass in a static condition (10 Kn is roughly 2250 lbs) but a weight in motion would break that same biner (a 1000lb weight moving at 30 miles per hour from a short fall).

It would be good to understand the differences and as you progress as a climber one should understand just how those changes occur.

close, but not quite. Whenever anyone says "pounds" they mean "pounds force" There is a such thing as "pounds mass" but nobody in their right mind would use that unit, it's just too confusing. Use slugs intead. 1 slug is equal to 32.2 pounds mass.


Partner neuroshock


Feb 12, 2006, 4:02 PM
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So if you weighed 200 pounds, that means your mass is about 90 kilograms. Acceleration is 9.81 meters/second squared. That means that force you'll create falling through the air is less than 900 newtons, so your caribeaner thats rated for 25000 newtons would surely hold you.
wouldn't that 2x~900 newtons of force be the amount of force put on the gear when you're statically sitting on it? bear with me...it's been 10 years since i last took physics and i don't actively use the science in everyday life (except for applied :D ).

in an "ideal" world...the carbiner is essentially a pulley. the amount of force on that pulley is equal on both sides (thus no movement). your mass * acceleration (gravity) is how much force you put on it while "at rest" (statically hanging from the piece of gear). the belayer's side of the rope from the piece is equal to that. thus, if your mass was 90kg you would be putting ~1764N of force (~1.7kN) on the piece while sitting still. now amplify the forces due to a fall...that's much more than your <1kN estimate.


curt


Feb 12, 2006, 4:26 PM
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A newton is unit of force, metric style. There's an equation out there, developed by Sir Isaac Newton, which says force is equal to mass times acceleration. So if you weighed 200 pounds, that means your mass is about 90 kilograms. Acceleration is 9.81 meters/second squared. That means that force you'll create falling through the air is less than 900 newtons, so your caribeaner thats rated for 25000 newtons would surely hold you. And that's pretty much all you need to know.

Here's a thought. If you don't have any idea of what you're talikng about, perhaps you should refrain from posting anything. :wink:

Here's a clue as to where you went wrong: The acceleration of a falling climber, due to gravity "a" has nothing to do with the correct "a" used in the F=ma equation to calculate the force on the falling climber and/or gear, when his fall is arrested.

Curt


daithi


Feb 12, 2006, 4:39 PM
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What is a Newton?

A proper unit for measuring force as opposed to archaic imperial units that even the Brits themselves got rid of (well almost!). Interestingly, the US was charter member of the treaty that was signed in 1875 agreeing on the Système International d'Unités (SI units).


daithi


Feb 12, 2006, 4:43 PM
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So if you weighed 200 pounds, that means your mass is about 90 kilograms. Acceleration is 9.81 meters/second squared. That means that force you'll create falling through the air is less than 900 newtons, so your caribeaner thats rated for 25000 newtons would surely hold you.

Not quite! mg is the force exerted on as you are falling, causing you to accelerate. Here's the problem though, you need the stop at the end of this fall as the rope catches you (or at least hopefully it does). The deceleration force you feel at the end of the fall, as the rope stops you, is greater than mg.


greenketch


Feb 12, 2006, 5:03 PM
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close, but not quite. Whenever anyone says "pounds" they mean "pounds force" There is a such thing as "pounds mass" but nobody in their right mind would use that unit, it's just too confusing. Use slugs intead. 1 slug is equal to 32.2 pounds mass.



:lol: :lol: :lol: You are exactly right. I just could not quite bring myself considering the question to tell the nice person that we were going to introduce slugs into the equation. Like maybe I should use a simple term to reinforce that the force was different from the force.


kubi


Feb 12, 2006, 5:07 PM
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In reply to:
close, but not quite. Whenever anyone says "pounds" they mean "pounds force" There is a such thing as "pounds mass" but nobody in their right mind would use that unit, it's just too confusing. Use slugs intead. 1 slug is equal to 32.2 pounds mass.



:lol: :lol: :lol: You are exactly right. I just could not quite bring myself considering the question to tell the nice person that we were going to introduce slugs into the equation. Like maybe I should use a simple term to reinforce that the force was different from the force.

from this point onward I'm going to start requesting that people quote gear mass in slugs. AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!

edited to change strength to mass. im no so smrt


fivesix


Feb 12, 2006, 5:19 PM
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quite frankly i wouldnt trust majority of you to tell me what a newton is!
first of all because most of you dont work with the metric system, and second, i dont think that many of you understand how and where and why forces are applied in the unorthodox world of climbing.

http://en.petzl.com/...nseil=56&Activite=14

this may prove to be helpful to begin understanding where and how forces are made. its designed for lead climbing...

cheers


superbum


Feb 12, 2006, 5:22 PM
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In reply to:
they are not cookies, they are fruit and cake.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

also known as: :lol:


col


Feb 12, 2006, 5:34 PM
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A more relevent question for the majority of the world may be what is a Pound equal to in kN?

and what is a cubit?


squierbypetzl
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Feb 12, 2006, 5:38 PM
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. . . Acceleration is 9.81 meters/second squared. That means that force you'll create falling through the air is less than 900 newtons, so your caribeaner thats rated for 25000 newtons would surely hold you. And that's pretty much all you need to know.

Ummm . . . no. My physics is pretty rusty by I know you can't just multiply 90 kg by 9.8 and says that's the force.

Ummm . . . yeah. My physics is pretty rusty too, but I do remember that:

F= force = ?
m= mass = 90kilograms
a= acceleration = distance/time squared = 9.81 meters/second squared at sea level

Therefore, F=m*a = 90 x 9.81.

That´s force.


sactownclimber


Feb 12, 2006, 5:47 PM
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In reply to:
. . . Acceleration is 9.81 meters/second squared. That means that force you'll create falling through the air is less than 900 newtons, so your caribeaner thats rated for 25000 newtons would surely hold you. And that's pretty much all you need to know.

Ummm . . . no. My physics is pretty rusty by I know you can't just multiply 90 kg by 9.8 and says that's the force.

Ummm . . . yeah. My physics is pretty rusty too, but I do remember that:

F= force = ?
m= mass = 90kilograms
a= acceleration = distance/time squared = 9.81 meters/second squared at sea level

Therefore, F=m*a = 90 x 9.81.

That´s force.

it's true that f=ma for a static load, so in that case he's correct, but not in a situation where the climber is falling . . .

so fair enough, I rushed to judgement, but I was thinking about a dynamic situation. In my defense, you'll see that a number of other people also corrected woj12_16's post.


sbaclimber


Feb 12, 2006, 6:19 PM
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In reply to:
. . . Acceleration is 9.81 meters/second squared. That means that force you'll create falling through the air is less than 900 newtons, so your caribeaner thats rated for 25000 newtons would surely hold you. And that's pretty much all you need to know.

Ummm . . . no. My physics is pretty rusty by I know you can't just multiply 90 kg by 9.8 and says that's the force.

Ummm . . . yeah. My physics is pretty rusty too, but I do remember that:

F= force = ?
m= mass = 90kilograms
a= acceleration = distance/time squared = 9.81 meters/second squared at sea level

Therefore, F=m*a = 90 x 9.81.

That´s force.
I am definitely jumping on the 'you have no idea what you are talking about' band wagon!!
As curt was hinting at.....
'a', as in acceleration (distance/time^2), is NOT gravity (9.81m/s^2, what you are assuming) when you are talking about catching a falling climber :!: :!:
It is the decceleration caused by the rope catching you (or if you will, NEGATIVE acceleration).
If you are are 80kg, and travelling at 9.8m/s (you have been falling for 1 second), and the rope catches you.......... (assume it takes 1/2second for you to come to rest): F = 80kg x (-)19.62m/s^2 = 1569.6N = ~1.6kN

Very rough calculation, please someone correct me if I am wrong!
The time to come to rest was a complete guess, I have no idea how long it would take (it would have a lot to do with the rope, I think).


cully_larson


Feb 12, 2006, 6:20 PM
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Where did some of you learn physics. It's almost scary.

First, a pound IS a measure of force. It is equal to 1 slug x ft/s^2. If you're on the moon, your pound "weight" will be different than it is on earth (force changes when gravity changes). Your mass is the same on earth as it is on the moon. So, your weight in slugs (or, even better, grams) will remain the same.

Second, F=ma will only give you the force applied by gravity. This will work fine if you want to determine how much force you exert when you hang on a rope. However, if you want to compute the force you exert when you fall, you also have to factor in the force of momentum (because of Newton's first law of motion). A force must be exerted to change the speed of a moving body (pun intended). So, it's a little more complicated to compute the force applied to a piece of gear (pro, rope, 'biner, etc.) when something falls on it.

First, momentum is equal to mass times velocity (p = mv). The net force you apply when your fall is arrested is equal to change in momentum divided by change in time (F = dp/dt). I'll see if I can do this w/o doing an integral. So, let's say you weigh 150lbs on earth (68 kg), you fall for one second, and your fall is arrested over half a second. I'm not sure if these numbers are correct, but it doesn't really matter. So, you have 1 second to accelerate to a velocity. Your velocity before your fall is arrested is given by vf: vf = vi + at. Your initial velocity is 0, so your final velocity is: 9.8 x 1 = 9.8 meters/second (21 miles/hour). Your initial momentum is actually 0 (your aren't moving) and your final momentum is: 68 x 9.8 = 666.7 kg m/s. So, the total force you apply as your fall is arrested is: 666.7 / .5 = 1333.4 newtons. If we had used the old F=ma equation, we would have come up with 666.7 newtons (which would be our answer if the fall was arrested over 1 second, but I doubt your fall will ever be arrested over the same time period as your are falling). This also shows us why dynamic ropes create less impact force (the more time you have to decelerate (the bigger the denominator in our equation), the less the force). This number probably isn't all that accurate. You have wind resistance. Also, as your fall is arrested, you are still being accelerated by gravity. Also, it would be hard to determine how much force is applied to any one piece of gear during this fall. Also, this is the net force applied in arresting your fall. The max. force applied at any one time during the deceleration of the body would be much less.

I hope that helps. Also, I'm sorry if any of the above is incorrect. It's been a long time since I've been in a physics class.


sbaclimber


Feb 12, 2006, 6:23 PM
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Also, I'm sorry if any of the above is incorrect. It's been a long time since I've been in a physics class.
:lol: Well, that makes two of us, but it looks like we were both on the same page (and our numbers aren't too far apart either).

PS, oh, and a cubit is the distance from the elbow to the tip of the middle finger on an 'average' person.
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This natural cubit measures 24 digits or 6 palms or 1½ foot. This is about 45 cm or 18 inches.


daithi


Feb 12, 2006, 6:41 PM
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If you're on the moon, your pound "weight" will be different than it is on earth (force changes when gravity changes). Your mass is the same on earth as it is on the moon. So, your weight in slugs (or, even better, grams) will remain the same.

Crystal clear! :roll: Little gems like this really help to clarify things.

Weight is a force measured in Newtons, mass is a proprty of a body measured in kg. The two are related through Newton's 2nd law, F = ma. A slug is a gastropod and a pound is a unit of currency!


curt


Feb 12, 2006, 6:49 PM
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If you're on the moon, your pound "weight" will be different than it is on earth (force changes when gravity changes). Your mass is the same on earth as it is on the moon. So, your weight in slugs (or, even better, grams) will remain the same.

Crystal clear! :roll: Little gems like this really help to clarify things.

Weight is a force measured in Newtons, mass is a proprty of a body measured in kg. The two are related through Newton's 2nd law, F = ma. A slug is a gastropod and a pound is a unit of currency!

But wait--there's more. A slug is also a lead projectile fired from a shotgun--and describes when you smack someone with your fist. A pound is where stray dogs go--and also describes what you do to properly tenderize abalone. :D

Curt


daithi


Feb 12, 2006, 6:54 PM
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Also, this is the net force applied in arresting your fall. The max. force applied at any one time during the deceleration of the body would be much less.

Since you assume a linear deceleration your force of 1333.4 N is a constant and applied over the time interval of 0.5 s. In reality the deceleration force is a function of time.


curt


Feb 12, 2006, 7:03 PM
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Also, this is the net force applied in arresting your fall. The max. force applied at any one time during the deceleration of the body would be much less.

Since you assume a linear deceleration your force of 1333.4 N is a constant and applied over the time interval of 0.5 s. In reality the deceleration force is a function of time.

Or distance.

Curt


cully_larson


Feb 12, 2006, 7:07 PM
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Also, this is the net force applied in arresting your fall. The max. force applied at any one time during the deceleration of the body would be much less.

Since you assume a linear deceleration your force of 1333.4 N is a constant and applied over the time interval of 0.5 s. In reality the deceleration force is a function of time.

Well, that's the total force applied over the entire 0.5s. At any one time during that deceleration, the force will not be 1333.4 N, even with linear deceleration. Imagine that instead of a rope decelerating me, I have a rocket engine. Let's say it can exert a constant 700 N of force. This will give us linear deceleration. Over a period of time I will slow down and eventually come to a stop (I don't want to take the time to solve the equation for t, so I don't know how long this will take). At any one time, the force exerted on me is 700N. However, using the equation I used before, I will end up with a net force exerted that is larger than 700 N.


daithi


Feb 12, 2006, 7:08 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Also, this is the net force applied in arresting your fall. The max. force applied at any one time during the deceleration of the body would be much less.

Since you assume a linear deceleration your force of 1333.4 N is a constant and applied over the time interval of 0.5 s. In reality the deceleration force is a function of time.

Or distance.

Curt

Exactly. When you actually take into account the elasticity of the rope and try and derive a differential equation for the deceleration force, it is written in terms of displacement (and its derivatives) not time. It should be added of course it could be written in terms of time it's just not convenient.


squierbypetzl
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Feb 12, 2006, 7:22 PM
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. . . Acceleration is 9.81 meters/second squared. That means that force you'll create falling through the air is less than 900 newtons, so your caribeaner thats rated for 25000 newtons would surely hold you. And that's pretty much all you need to know.

Ummm . . . no. My physics is pretty rusty by I know you can't just multiply 90 kg by 9.8 and says that's the force.

Ummm . . . yeah. My physics is pretty rusty too, but I do remember that:

F= force = ?
m= mass = 90kilograms
a= acceleration = distance/time squared = 9.81 meters/second squared at sea level

Therefore, F=m*a = 90 x 9.81.

That´s force.
I am definitely jumping on the 'you have no idea what you are talking about' band wagon!!
As curt was hinting at.....
'a', as in acceleration (distance/time^2), is NOT gravity (9.81m/s^2, what you are assuming) when you are talking about catching a falling climber :!: :!:
It is the decceleration caused by the rope catching you (or if you will, NEGATIVE acceleration).
If you are are 80kg, and travelling at 9.8m/s (you have been falling for 1 second), and the rope catches you.......... (assume it takes 1/2second for you to come to rest): F = 80kg x (-)19.62m/s^2 = 1569.6N = ~1.6kN

Very rough calculation, please someone correct me if I am wrong!
The time to come to rest was a complete guess, I have no idea how long it would take (it would have a lot to do with the rope, I think).

Dude, simple, is mass x acceleration = to force? Yes? I never mentioned anything about a falling climber. I was just saying it is force.

:roll:


schnoz


Feb 12, 2006, 7:23 PM
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Oi.

How many threads are there on rc.com about this?

Weight and mass are not one and the same.

An object always has the same mass, regarldess of it's acceleration.

An object does not always have the same weight.

To say that an object with a mass of 980 Newtons weighs 100 kg is true iff that object is at rest on Earth's surface.

Another example is to say that an astronaut can step on a scale here on Earth where gravity is 9.8 m/s^2 and weighs 98 kg. That same astronaut with the same mass stepping on the same scale on the Earth's moon where gravity is 1.6 m/s^2 would weigh only 16 kg.

Now, let's use an example of a shotgun slug (since someone decided to bring slugs into this). If I removed a slug from the round and tossed it to you, it wouldn't hurt. It wouldn't pass through your hand or do any other damage to you. If I throw it at you really hard, it might sting a bit. Now, if I shoot at at you and you try and catch it, it's going to hurt. A lot. Why? The slug still has the same mass in all three examples. The outcome is different in all three because, as stated before, F = ma. That is, Force is equal to mass times acceleration. A bullet is constantly accelerating as it leaves the barrel of the gun, it's just not accelerating at a constant rate, until it comes to rest by striking something.

How does this translate into the climbing world? I believe the best article to read regarding that (from my searching for reference data and double checking some figures) is one published by PMI. It's located at http://www.safeclimbing.org/..._Climbers_Beware.pdf. It's also an excellent article explaining how ropes are tested and why.

As an aside, did anyone else know that PMI stood for Pigeon Mountain Industries? No wonder they go by PMI all the time!


sbaclimber


Feb 12, 2006, 7:33 PM
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Dude, simple, is mass x acceleration = to force? Yes? I never mentioned anything about a falling climber. I was just saying it is force.
:roll:
Okay, fair enough you did not mention a falling climber. woj12_16, on the other hand, did, and you quoted him :!:
I will leave it up to you to decide who my comment was aimed at :wink:

Edit: actually, let me clarify:
woj12_16 said something stupid -> someone said NO, that was wrong -> you said, YES. I thought that mean that you were agreeing with woj12_16.
My missunderstanding apparently :roll:


daithi


Feb 12, 2006, 7:33 PM
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Let's say it can exert a constant 700 N of force.

You have given the answer of the force exerted on the body at any given time before any equations are needed! It will be a constant of 700 N.

In reply to:
However, using the equation I used before, I will end up with a net force exerted that is larger than 700 N

Are you confusing force with momentum? Momentum is the integral of force wrt time. Plot the velocity, acceleration, force and momentum wrt time for this problem. The momentum isn't constant but the force is.


daithi


Feb 12, 2006, 7:37 PM
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To say that an object with a mass of 980 Newtons weighs 100 kg is true iff that object is at rest on Earth's surface.

Another example is to say that an astronaut can step on a scale here on Earth where gravity is 9.8 m/s^2 and weighs 98 kg. That same astronaut with the same mass stepping on the same scale on the Earth's moon where gravity is 1.6 m/s^2 would weigh only 16 kg.

Do they just not teach you about the metric system over there? Please stop this. It is making me cry! :(


cully_larson


Feb 12, 2006, 7:38 PM
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...

In the interest of science, there are a few things wrong with what you just posted.

In reply to:
To say that an object with a mass of 980 Newtons weighs 100 kg is true iff that object is at rest on Earth's surface.

Another example is to say that an astronaut can step on a scale here on Earth where gravity is 9.8 m/s^2 and weighs 98 kg. That same astronaut with the same mass stepping on the same scale on the Earth's moon where gravity is 1.6 m/s^2 would weigh only 16 kg.

Mass is measured in grams, not Newtons. So, if something has a mass of 98 kg on the earth, it has a mass of 98kg on the moon, or in space, or wherever. It's the 980 newtons of FORCE that changes.

In reply to:
Now, let's use an example of a shotgun slug (since someone decided to bring slugs into this). If I removed a slug from the round and tossed it to you, it wouldn't hurt. It wouldn't pass through your hand or do any other damage to you. If I throw it at you really hard, it might sting a bit. Now, if I shoot at at you and you try and catch it, it's going to hurt. A lot. Why? The slug still has the same mass in all three examples. The outcome is different in all three because, as stated before, F = ma. That is, Force is equal to mass times acceleration. A bullet is constantly accelerating as it leaves the barrel of the gun, it's just not accelerating at a constant rate, until it comes to rest by striking something.

A bullet, at least in a vacuum, does not accelerate in the x direction after it leaves the barrel. If not in a vacuum, it accelerates negatively (or decelerates) due to wind resistence. When it comes to a stop by striking something, it does not exert a force of F=ma upon that object. It actually exerts a force equal to the change in momentum over time caused by the striking of the object.

If it were true that it exerts a force of F=ma, then it wouldn't matter how far a climber falls before her fall is arrested, she will still exert the same force. This isn't the case.


schnoz


Feb 12, 2006, 7:43 PM
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To say that an object with a mass of 980 Newtons weighs 100 kg is true iff that object is at rest on Earth's surface.

Another example is to say that an astronaut can step on a scale here on Earth where gravity is 9.8 m/s^2 and weighs 98 kg. That same astronaut with the same mass stepping on the same scale on the Earth's moon where gravity is 1.6 m/s^2 would weigh only 16 kg.

Do they just not teach you about the metric system over there? Please stop this. It is making me cry! :(

I fail to see what's wrong with what you quoted me on. Just how is it that 100 kg * 9.8 isn't equal to 980?

Nor do I see where the second part of what you quoted me is wrong on either.


daithi


Feb 12, 2006, 7:44 PM
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In reply to:
To say that an object with a mass of 980 Newtons weighs 100 kg is true iff that object is at rest on Earth's surface.

Another example is to say that an astronaut can step on a scale here on Earth where gravity is 9.8 m/s^2 and weighs 98 kg. That same astronaut with the same mass stepping on the same scale on the Earth's moon where gravity is 1.6 m/s^2 would weigh only 16 kg.

Do they just not teach you about the metric system over there? Please stop this. It is making me cry! :(

I fail to see what's wrong with what you quoted me on. Just how is it that 100 kg * 9.8 isn't equal to 980?

Nor do I see where the second part of what you quoted me is wrong on either.

For fuck's sake, I even highlighted the incorrect bits in italics for you! :roll:


schnoz


Feb 12, 2006, 7:48 PM
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To say that an object with a mass of 980 Newtons weighs 100 kg is true iff that object is at rest on Earth's surface.

Another example is to say that an astronaut can step on a scale here on Earth where gravity is 9.8 m/s^2 and weighs 98 kg. That same astronaut with the same mass stepping on the same scale on the Earth's moon where gravity is 1.6 m/s^2 would weigh only 16 kg.

Mass is measured in grams, not Newtons. So, if something has a mass of 98 kg on the earth, it has a mass of 98kg on the moon, or in space, or wherever. It's the 980 newtons of FORCE that changes.

It's been quite some time since high school physics. You're quite right, I had that part backwards.

In reply to:
In reply to:
Now, let's use an example of a shotgun slug (since someone decided to bring slugs into this). If I removed a slug from the round and tossed it to you, it wouldn't hurt. It wouldn't pass through your hand or do any other damage to you. If I throw it at you really hard, it might sting a bit. Now, if I shoot at at you and you try and catch it, it's going to hurt. A lot. Why? The slug still has the same mass in all three examples. The outcome is different in all three because, as stated before, F = ma. That is, Force is equal to mass times acceleration. A bullet is constantly accelerating as it leaves the barrel of the gun, it's just not accelerating at a constant rate, until it comes to rest by striking something.

A bullet, at least in a vacuum, does not accelerate in the x direction after it leaves the barrel. If not in a vacuum, it accelerates negatively (or decelerates) due to wind resistence. When it comes to a stop by striking something, it does not exert a force of F=ma upon that object. It actually exerts a force equal to the change in momentum over time caused by the striking of the object.

If it were true that it exerts a force of F=ma, then it wouldn't matter how far a climber falls before her fall is arrested, she will still exert the same force. This isn't the case.

I had a much longer post composed to address wind resistance, etc. However, I deleted most of it. I was trying to relate a bullet to rock climbing and a rock climber never reached terminal velocity while roped up. Not with a standard 60m rope, anyway.

As for length of the fall, that doesn't matter to a climber either. It's the fall factor that matters. It's due to the FF mattering over the length of the fall that I deleted the whole bit about wind resitance and trying to go into forces a bit more.

In retrospect, I should have just not said anything. There's already a whack of threads explaining what a Newton is already on rc.com. It probably would have been better to just link to them :)


curt


Feb 12, 2006, 8:22 PM
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To say that an object with a mass of 980 Newtons weighs 100 kg is true iff that object is at rest on Earth's surface.

Another example is to say that an astronaut can step on a scale here on Earth where gravity is 9.8 m/s^2 and weighs 98 kg. That same astronaut with the same mass stepping on the same scale on the Earth's moon where gravity is 1.6 m/s^2 would weigh only 16 kg.

Do they just not teach you about the metric system over there? Please stop this. It is making me cry! :(

No, they do. It's just that there are retards everywhere.

Curt


curt


Feb 12, 2006, 8:34 PM
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In reply to:
To say that an object with a mass of 980 Newtons weighs 100 kg is true iff that object is at rest on Earth's surface.

Another example is to say that an astronaut can step on a scale here on Earth where gravity is 9.8 m/s^2 and weighs 98 kg. That same astronaut with the same mass stepping on the same scale on the Earth's moon where gravity is 1.6 m/s^2 would weigh only 16 kg.

Do they just not teach you about the metric system over there? Please stop this. It is making me cry! :(

I fail to see what's wrong with what you quoted me on. Just how is it that 100 kg * 9.8 isn't equal to 980?

Nor do I see where the second part of what you quoted me is wrong on either.

I'll field this one. Nothing "weighs" 98kg versus 16kg, dependent on the acceleration caused by local gravity. Mass is constant irrespective of the acceleration due to gravity--and is not a unit of weight at all. Got it yet?

Curt


sactownclimber


Feb 12, 2006, 9:43 PM
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. . . Acceleration is 9.81 meters/second squared. That means that force you'll create falling through the air is less than 900 newtons, so your caribeaner thats rated for 25000 newtons would surely hold you. And that's pretty much all you need to know.

Ummm . . . no. My physics is pretty rusty by I know you can't just multiply 90 kg by 9.8 and says that's the force.

Ummm . . . yeah. My physics is pretty rusty too, but I do remember that:

F= force = ?
m= mass = 90kilograms
a= acceleration = distance/time squared = 9.81 meters/second squared at sea level

Therefore, F=m*a = 90 x 9.81.

That´s force.
I am definitely jumping on the 'you have no idea what you are talking about' band wagon!!
As curt was hinting at.....
'a', as in acceleration (distance/time^2), is NOT gravity (9.81m/s^2, what you are assuming) when you are talking about catching a falling climber :!: :!:
It is the decceleration caused by the rope catching you (or if you will, NEGATIVE acceleration).
If you are are 80kg, and travelling at 9.8m/s (you have been falling for 1 second), and the rope catches you.......... (assume it takes 1/2second for you to come to rest): F = 80kg x (-)19.62m/s^2 = 1569.6N = ~1.6kN

Very rough calculation, please someone correct me if I am wrong!
The time to come to rest was a complete guess, I have no idea how long it would take (it would have a lot to do with the rope, I think).

Dude, simple, is mass x acceleration = to force? Yes? I never mentioned anything about a falling climber. I was just saying it is force.

:roll:

sbaclimbr thanks for the backup, I knew I was right . . .

for the record:
In reply to:
. . . Acceleration is 9.81 meters/second squared. That means that force you'll create falling through the air is less than 900 newtons, so your caribeaner thats rated for 25000 newtons would surely hold you. And that's pretty much all you need to know.

which is NOT correct. To clarify: m*g is the force on an object due to gravity, whether falling or static, and when that falling object does come to a stop (when the rope catches you) m*g is NOT the force felt by carabiner.

Edited to more precisely spell out what I was trying to say . . .


daithi


Feb 12, 2006, 10:12 PM
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In reply to:
for the record:
In reply to:
. . . Acceleration is 9.81 meters/second squared. That means that force you'll create falling through the air is less than 900 newtons,....

which is NOT correct. As previously stated, m*g is the force due to an object at rest.

Incroyable! Actually the force acting on a body that is free falling is also m*g (ignoring aero drag of course). Unless you are propelling yourself downwards there is no other force acting on you. The high forces that your rope etc. are rated for arise when you attempt to arrest this falling motion.

Even by rc.com standards, the number of erroneous statements on this thread beggars believe. What compounds the disbelieve is the simplicity of the subject at hand! Mods please lock this thread before my head explodes! :)


blondgecko
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Feb 12, 2006, 11:30 PM
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I have to get off this thread before I perform a little experiment in acceleration by hurling my computer out the window. :evil:


jarin_italy


Feb 13, 2006, 12:16 AM
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1KN=1000N=101.9716KG


qwert


Feb 13, 2006, 12:41 AM
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1KN=1000N=101.9716KG
you cant use = here. they arent the same. you could use that as an estimation in a static scenario, but never ever with a = .

are you all freakin nuts?? slugs, pounds, feet, cubits, miles, average tennesse cock lengths and what else you are using. that is insane. how could anione understand that, or even dare to calculate sonthing with that shit
If you want to measure how much flour your cookies need, fine, use your frikkin pound, but if you want to come anywhere close to physiks, please, please, please use the SI system.
And i am pretty shure that noone here could calculate the correct force, a falling climber causes. The calculation would be way to complicated. We have such things as wind resistance, heat, friction, and the properties of the rope (wich is not just hooks law), so please stop it.
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Mods please lock this thread before my head explodes!
qwert


qwert


Feb 13, 2006, 12:45 AM
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Oh, and for anyone interested, here is a pretty good article about the newton.

qwert


stars_of_crack_and_smears


Feb 13, 2006, 1:14 AM
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I think oldguy53 gets his jollies by kicking over anthills to watch the ensuing pandemonium. 4 pages in one day, not a bad troll...
Socas


jdouble


Feb 13, 2006, 2:34 AM
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The Newton (aka Fig Roll in Europe) is a soft, cake-like cookie (biscuit) filled with fig jam. A patented and trademarked product of Nabisco, Fig Newtons originated in the United States and have since spread across the world. They have traditionally been rather unique compared to similar products offered by competitors, but in recent times rivals have arisen, such as Wal-Mart's "Fig Bars", which are sold under its Great Value brand.

The Fig Newton was created in 1891 by Charles M. Roser of the Kennedy Biscuit Company, a Massachusetts-based bakery. The company named many of their products after surrounding communities. The Fig Newton was named after nearby Newton, Massachusetts. It was first simply called the Newton, but the name was changed to Fig Newton in 1898.

The Kennedy Biscuit Company merged with other regional bakeries in 1898 to form the National Biscuit Company, which later became Nabisco. The cookie is now produced by Nabisco.

The machine that makes the cookie consists of a funnel within a funnel. The inner funnel contains the filling, and the outer funnel contains the dough. The machine expresses a long length of filled cookie, which is then baked, cut into smaller pieces, and packaged.

WOW. A clear, concise, well organized history of the Newton. We are not worthy.

You know anything about the Marathon Bar? Can't seem to find them anymore.


dynosore


Feb 13, 2006, 6:13 AM
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Physicist amateur night continues...who's next on stage? :lol:
I once ate a slug of newtons :shock:


kubi


Feb 13, 2006, 10:13 AM
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If it were true that it exerts a force of F=ma, then it wouldn't matter how far a climber falls before her fall is arrested, she will still exert the same force. This isn't the case.

once again we are confusing the acceleration downward due to gravity with the acceleration upward due to the rope arresting your fall. F=ma works perfectly for a falling climber as long as you know what "a" is.


qtm


Feb 13, 2006, 1:56 PM
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Re: just what is a newton? [In reply to]
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If it were true that it exerts a force of F=ma, then it wouldn't matter how far a climber falls before her fall is arrested, she will still exert the same force. This isn't the case.

once again we are confusing the acceleration downward due to gravity with the acceleration upward due to the rope arresting your fall. F=ma works perfectly for a falling climber as long as you know what "a" is.


F = number of Fig Newtons I eat.
ma = size of my ass


chronicle


Feb 13, 2006, 2:40 PM
Post #58 of 63 (3447 views)
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Re: just what is a newton? [In reply to]
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To say that an object with a mass of 980 Newtons weighs 100 kg is true iff that object is at rest on Earth's surface.

Another example is to say that an astronaut can step on a scale here on Earth where gravity is 9.8 m/s^2 and weighs 98 kg. That same astronaut with the same mass stepping on the same scale on the Earth's moon where gravity is 1.6 m/s^2 would weigh only 16 kg.

Do they just not teach you about the metric system over there? Please stop this. It is making me cry! :(

No, they do. It's just that there are retards everywhere.

Curt

I wish I could rate posts today. As soon as I can, Curt gets a trophy!!!


chronicle


Feb 13, 2006, 3:06 PM
Post #59 of 63 (3447 views)
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Re: just what is a newton? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
To say that an object with a mass of 980 Newtons weighs 100 kg is true iff that object is at rest on Earth's surface.

Another example is to say that an astronaut can step on a scale here on Earth where gravity is 9.8 m/s^2 and weighs 98 kg. That same astronaut with the same mass stepping on the same scale on the Earth's moon where gravity is 1.6 m/s^2 would weigh only 16 kg.

Do they just not teach you about the metric system over there? Please stop this. It is making me cry! :(

No, they do. It's just that there are retards everywhere.

Curt

I wish I could rate posts today. As soon as I can, Curt gets a trophy!!!


c22


Feb 13, 2006, 4:05 PM
Post #60 of 63 (3447 views)
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Registered: Dec 18, 2004
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Re: just what is a newton? [In reply to]
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A newton is unit of force, metric style. There's an equation out there, developed by Sir Isaac Newton, which says force is equal to mass times acceleration. So if you weighed 200 pounds, that means your mass is about 90 kilograms. Acceleration is 9.81 meters/second squared. That means that force you'll create falling through the air is less than 900 newtons, so your caribeaner thats rated for 25000 newtons would surely hold you. And that's pretty much all you need to know.

um... no


oldguy53


Jul 11, 2013, 6:45 PM
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Re: [sbaclimber] just what is a newton? [In reply to]
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A Cubit is marked on every tape measure at 19 3/16 inches.


curt


Jul 11, 2013, 8:09 PM
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Re: [oldguy53] just what is a newton? [In reply to]
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oldguy53 wrote:
A Cubit is marked on every tape measure at 19 3/16 inches.

And 60 mph is .16128 megafurlongs per fortnight. Most people don't know that. Cool

Curt


csproul


Jul 12, 2013, 5:02 AM
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Re: [oldguy53] just what is a newton? [In reply to]
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oldguy53 wrote:
A Cubit is marked on every tape measure at 19 3/16 inches.
You also responded to a post that is 1.89216e+16 shake (or six years) old.


Forums : Climbing Information : Gear Heads

 


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