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slavetogravity
Feb 15, 2006, 5:17 AM
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Given the ever growing, ever expanding world of hand held technology, how practical do you think hand held electronic guide books would be? and if they’re a practical notion, how long before we see them available? Of course this hand held device could serve as more then just a portable electronic guide book. It could also be used to view digitally recorded music, movies, serve as a cell phone, GPS unit, you name it.
I envision a device similar to an Ipod, where the user can scroll through images of topos, similar to the photo images currently found in guide books. Moving the curser across the screen the curser would then highlight routes as it crosses them. The user could then click on the route and all relevant information about that particular route would be displayed.
So what do you think? Will the days of lugging around and owning a book shelf full of guidebooks be soon behind us?
The most practice reason I can think of that will make this idea a reality, is it costs very little to create and distribute a CD, where it costs a great deal more to print, publish and distribute books.
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gordo
Feb 15, 2006, 5:27 AM
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Make it happen...you could be the next millionare 8^)
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boltdude
Feb 15, 2006, 5:40 AM
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Actually Supertopo started out solely with online guidebooks (PDF downloads), the idea was to never need to do print guidebooks. The idea was a little ahead of reality though, which is why you can buy print versions these days.
Once devices such as you're describing come out and become cheap and reliable, it's only a matter of time until guidebooks are a thing of the past (except maybe for remote or rarely visited areas). All it takes is people really psyched on an area to create online material, and with large memory portable devices, you'll have pics and beta from all sorts of sources.
Might take a while though - 5 or 10 or even more years before you'll have cheap, reliable, and tough devices (the tough factor might be the crux), and depending on the climbing area, it might take much longer before guidebook companies go out of business. Hope so at least, since I'm a guidebook author...
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foyster
Feb 15, 2006, 6:32 AM
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Call me old fashioned, but I much prefer old school paper in my hand. And there is such a thing as too much preparation, it takes all of the adventure and fun out of it! I'm holding back on a gps unit, cause I love telling those stories where I could've needed one!
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slavetogravity
Feb 15, 2006, 6:38 AM
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In reply to: t's only a matter of time until guidebooks are a thing of the past (except maybe for remote or rarely visited areas)...
I don't know, I think the remote/ rarely visited areas have the most to gain from such technology. Who's going to go through the effort and commit the money to print a book that's only going to be bought by a few climbers? Burning CDs is much cheaper. Hell, I'm developing an area that's small and rarely visited and I'm make the info available online for free on RC.com. Of course the format could be better, but like you said the technology has the catch up to remedy that.
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gordo
Feb 15, 2006, 1:02 PM
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In reply to: Hell, I'm developing an area that's small and rarely visited and I'm make the info available online for free on RC.com. Of course the format could be better, but like you said the technology has the catch up to remedy that.
That's really the key...the device will be like an iPod or eBook device, where the data comes from all sorts of places and will be free for disorganized and cheap for organized material.
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toby_slim
Feb 15, 2006, 1:21 PM
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New palm pilots allow you to view pdf files. However it does not work super effiently on all pdf´s that i´ve tried. But with some optimization it´s doable. So basically the devices are already available but there is no market for the guides in that format since too few people own one.
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gordo
Feb 15, 2006, 1:24 PM
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Good point...the PDF may be the answer. You could already use a laptop that way. The Guidebooks won't drive the need, it will take advantage of it. Things like Porn, video phones, and poratable web will drive the technology!
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mesomorf
Feb 15, 2006, 1:53 PM
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I want a guidebook to come with a database that will show me, for example, all three star climbs, 10a to 10c, in the shade, that I haven't done yet.
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crotch
Feb 15, 2006, 2:19 PM
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I thought this would have already happened to textbooks by now, but kids are still lugging around backpacks full of books instead of a reader and some CDs.
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aaronbr86
Feb 15, 2006, 2:29 PM
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Some textbooks are moving to pdf. In some of my classes I have the option of getting a .pdf of the textbook. This is troublesome in some ways ie. you have to print out problems if you are going somewhere without a computer. The upside though is that it is usually cheaper (along the lines of $40 for a semester) and it has many valuable tools you can access online. Give it a few more years and I think you will be seeing more and more online textbooks. But not to hijack the thread...
Pdf files are great for guidebooks IMO simply because I can print the pages I need or the area I need and they are much easier to transport. It saves me lugging a book around that has 1100 climbs I dont need.
-Aaron
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robdotcalm
Feb 15, 2006, 2:29 PM
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As a guidebook author and publisher, I’ve thought about this a lot. Eventually, guidebooks on a handheld device will happen, but one cannot predict the exact nature of the technology that will succeed. For example, despite backing by large companies, e-books have been a failure commerically—they satisfied a need nobody experienced. On the other hand, the home grown MP3 technology has become dominant (and not just for popular music) despite the attempt of many large companies to suppress it, the technology has made CDs very last century.
When climbingboulder.com went online a few years ago, I thought it would decrease my sales, since for specific routes, it supplied much more information from different points of view than could be placed in a guidebook. However, it appeared to provide a boost for my sales.
At the present time, the audio portion of handheld devices is far superior to visual displays of such devices especially in bright sunlight. Until the visual display is improved, guidebooks will maintain their advantage.
I suppose if somebody had the time and inclination, he could could scan an entire paper guidebook, save it as pdf and then post it on a website. As a publisher, I’d be unhappy with that, but I’m not sure there’s much I could do about it given the small amounts of money involved in the guidebook business and the rates charged by intellectual property rights lawyers.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
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herbaltee
Feb 15, 2006, 2:33 PM
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When I read this I think wifi hotspot on top of El Cap....Instant access to beta 24/7
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chalkfree
Feb 15, 2006, 2:34 PM
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This sounds like the HitchHiker's guide. I'd think that tough and reliable would be the main constraints here. I would never buy something like this that I wasn't absolutely certain wasn't going to run out of batteries, or get crunched in my pack on that chimney. It's pretty good and hard to destroy a book by accident if you keep it dry, but something like a Palm is a whole different story.
Good luck
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robdotcalm
Feb 15, 2006, 2:38 PM
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In reply to: I want a guidebook to come with a database that will show me, for example, all three star climbs, 10a to 10c, in the shade, that I haven't done yet.
I’ve found that in writing a guidebook (I use Adobe FrameMaker)that it was very efficient to mirror the book in an Microsoft Access database, which I wrote myself (such databases are available commercially, but usually cost about $10K). Now with the database, if you asked for climbs with a SW exposure and rated 10b or 10c, the answer would be available immediately with a simple query.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
_______________________________________________________
‘Tis better to have trad and failed then not to have trad at all.
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granite_grrl
Feb 15, 2006, 2:54 PM
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The initial problems would be durability (handle knocks and dampness), affordability (I'm hesitant enough with my digital camera at the crag thinking it could get stolen, or heven forbid, dropped a couple pitches off the ground) and battery life.
But even if these things get resolved I think it would take a long time to phase out the paper version of a guide book. First, a lot of people just like the look and feel of paper, I know I hate reading a computer screen for too long. Secondly, people like to add their own notes in books, tircky to do with an electronic file.
I do like the idea of obscure guides being avaliable, but they could always be published online in pdf version for download.
The only other thing I wonder is the effect on guide book authors. Would electronic publishing help becuase it would lower the publishing cost, or hurt because people will copy and burn files from each other and not actually buy the guide?
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ericg
Feb 15, 2006, 3:29 PM
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The Red River Gorge has an awesome online guidebook that is constantly expanding and is available as .pdf downloads for individual walls. The .pdf's can be put on Palm pilots or anything else that has memory.
Check it out
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/RRCGuideV2/
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lajhanata
Feb 15, 2006, 3:35 PM
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I've got a few on line guidebooks, and they have there uses. I find printing a few copies of a single route or two on alpine climbs is awesome when you don't want to haul the whole book. In bouldering areas where the boulders are far apart, or climbs where you aren't sure a route begins, it's handy to have GPS coordinates too.
At the crag having a bunch of printed pages is a pain though, ditto with close together bouldering fields. It seems the idea of having a digital book for this kind of stuff has a lot of problems, but being able to print at home, stuff your topos in a sandwich bag and go is pretty cool.
Somebody was talking about textbooks and stuff not going digital, but a lot of them have. Probably close to half of the textbooks out there today have some sort of supplemental software. Maybe Guide books should do the same. It ups the price of text books by a third or more, maybe it could do the same for guidebooks. Of course, the more digital these things go, the more bootleg beta there's gonna be...
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aaronbr86
Feb 15, 2006, 3:39 PM
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I have an ipod, a laptop, and my brother has a pocket pc but I dont think I would tote any of these along for a guide (well except maybe the ipod) but I would print out the .pdf's. It cost me $0.06 a page to print documents here, or I go to work and print them for free. If I only need 20 or so pages of the guidebook it will only cost me $1.20. I think thats the way to go.
-Aaron
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j_ung
Feb 15, 2006, 4:05 PM
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Seems like we're waiting more for battery technology to catch up rather than devices.
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crackers
Feb 15, 2006, 4:32 PM
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I think that we're quite a ways off right now from having electronic guidebooks. The capability of the screens just isn't there yet. You have at best .7 megapixels of resolution in a desktop screen, and when compared to the visual density of print it is obvious that the technology is new and far from mature.
I think that it might be the next or next but one generation of screens that finally deliver the resolution necessary to have a really good electronic guidebook. When the screen arrives, i'm willing to bet that it will be a matter of months to a few years before everybody switches. The index just can't compete with a fully functional natural language search.
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weschrist
Feb 15, 2006, 4:52 PM
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Supertopo PDF guidebooks have one huge problem, you cannot do a "search" for routes, etc. They are essentially just scanned graphics and Adobe can't search for specific words in the document (at least mine are that way).
Once this is fixed I can't imagine any reason not to dload the guide book and print off the sections you want when you want them... then if they get rained on you simply go back home and print them off again.
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dingus
Feb 15, 2006, 4:53 PM
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Yes, the prospect of walking around with 50 or 60 pages of loose leaf print, shuffling through them on a windy day and what have you, oh, the joy!
The topo mapping softwares are closer to penetrating reality imo. Amongst peak baggers and high pointers, this software has pretty much taken over. Coupled with sat photos an amazing amount of detail is available.
Know what? The 7.5 minute USGS maps are FAR FAR superior to anything you're going to print off your home printer on 8.5 x 11 format. Field use will demonstrate this like nothing else.
Squinting at a little black berry screen in the bright sunlight, trying to cram as much into into as small a display screen as possible? What are you thinking?
Next you'll be asking for a gps unit on the back of the harness that beeps every time you veer from the carefully crafted waypoint route.
You can have my printed guidebooks and maps when you pry them out of my cold dead fingers. E-bullshit is not the answer to everything.
DMT
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weschrist
Feb 15, 2006, 4:56 PM
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In reply to: Yes, the prospect of walking around with 50 or 60 pages of loose leaf print, shuffling through them on a windy day and what have you, oh, the joy!
wow, either you cover alot of ground in one day (50-60 pages worth) or you have missed the obvious concept of taking only what you need.
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bobd1953
Feb 15, 2006, 4:59 PM
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Dingus wrote: You can have my printed guidebooks and maps when you pry them out of my cold dead fingers. E-bullshit is not the answer to everything.
To a certain generation it is. More play toys and less skills.
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dingus
Feb 15, 2006, 5:01 PM
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Another example to consider:
When I go climbing to say a Sierra route, perhaps a trailhead on the eastside south of Yosemite, I have grown accustomed to having a forced change of plans... weather, crowded trailheads, closed roads, what have you.
Larnt the hard way... if I'm headed out to drive a couple of hundred miles to bag a route, I am going to take alternate gear 'just in case.' So that trip into the Palisades morphs into 3 days in Owens Gorge bright sunshine as an early season storm pounds the crest.
So when packing I take a guidebook for each area I'll be near or pass through on the way, Yosemite, the Meadows, Owens, East Side, Secor, Moniyer, etc. I'll also take different maps, perhaps skis, perhaps perhaps perhaps.
Doing all that with some e-book bullshit... dashing off to Kinkos to print off a few pages may be all well and good for an urban sport climbing venue, but it is beyond useless for practical use in this sort of scenario.
It is nothing for me to depart home with 6 or 7 guidebooks in the car, representing thousands of potential climbs. And all I have to do is toss the appropriate book in the pack and I'm good to go, no subscription rates, no worries about a T1 connection, no uber-reliance on technology. Chouinard would be proud.
DMT
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dingus
Feb 15, 2006, 5:07 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Yes, the prospect of walking around with 50 or 60 pages of loose leaf print, shuffling through them on a windy day and what have you, oh, the joy! wow, either you cover alot of ground in one day (50-60 pages worth) or you have missed the obvious concept of taking only what you need.
Whatever.
DMT
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clayman
Feb 15, 2006, 5:18 PM
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In reply to: I thought this would have already happened to textbooks by now, but kids are still lugging around backpacks full of books instead of a reader and some CDs.
this is because the contrast ratio for text/background on a computer is still very small compared to print, hence it makes your eyes tired quickly. It would help if more people would use white fonts and black backgrounds though.
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mtntran
Feb 15, 2006, 5:30 PM
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Goggle Earth with routes info in an IPod on steroid....I'll be the first in line.
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clayman
Feb 15, 2006, 5:31 PM
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In reply to: Another example to consider: When I go climbing to say a Sierra route, perhaps a trailhead on the eastside south of Yosemite, I have grown accustomed to having a forced change of plans... weather, crowded trailheads, closed roads, what have you. Larnt the hard way... if I'm headed out to drive a couple of hundred miles to bag a route, I am going to take alternate gear 'just in case.' So that trip into the Palisades morphs into 3 days in Owens Gorge bright sunshine as an early season storm pounds the crest. So when packing I take a guidebook for each area I'll be near or pass through on the way, Yosemite, the Meadows, Owens, East Side, Secor, Moniyer, etc. I'll also take different maps, perhaps skis, perhaps perhaps perhaps. Doing all that with some e-book s---... dashing off to Kinkos to print off a few pages may be all well and good for an urban sport climbing venue, but it is beyond useless for practical use in this sort of scenario. It is nothing for me to depart home with 6 or 7 guidebooks in the car, representing thousands of potential climbs. And all I have to do is toss the appropriate book in the pack and I'm good to go, no subscription rates, no worries about a T1 connection, no uber-reliance on technology. Chouinard would be proud. DMT
why print? If you had your guidebooks as digital files then, before you left home, you download your 6-7 "e-guides" to your Nano or whatever and there you go. You're not reading a novel here, you just need to spend a few minutes looking at the route description and accompanying map or topo (if there is one), so power isn't a problem unless you're out for weeks. No more reliance here then on a book, no T1 no subscription. Also, where a book can get wet and turn into mush, your Nano could have a weather proof cover. One issue could be screen size though. Trying to pinpoint some rock feature on a tiny little screen could be frustrating.
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dingus
Feb 15, 2006, 5:41 PM
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In reply to: why print? If you had your guidebooks as digital files then, before you left home, you download your 6-7 "e-guides" to your Nano or whatever and there you go. You're not reading a novel here, you just need to spend a few minutes looking at the route description and accompanying map or topo (if there is one), so power isn't a problem unless you're out for weeks. No more reliance here then on a book, no T1 no subscription. Also, where a book can get wet and turn into mush, your Nano could have a weather proof cover. One issue could be screen size though. Trying to pinpoint some rock feature on a tiny little screen could be frustrating.
I can't believe you're actually trying to sell me on this concept! I appreciate the effort.
But I guess we aren't climbing the same sort of routes, and we aren't trying to cover as many bases. I own over 40 guidebooks. I don't always know what I want to climb, much less what lurks in the dark recesses of my partner. The ability to 'thumb' a guidebook is sorely underrated here.
My scenario of having to fall back, regroup and climb something else... it isn't like this objective was preordained. We decide when we decide.
"He Ding, let's go to the Valley tomorrow."
"Cool! Whaddaya wanna climb?"
"Dunno. We'll figure it out when we get there."
Sitting at the pullout for the first good view of the Valley, down below the road's edge, quaffing a bowl and thumbing a well worn guidebook looking for today's inspiration?
Like I said, you can have my guidebooks when you pry them from my cold dead fingers (which may be a lot sooner than I think, to borrow a Whillans).
Thumbing an e-guide in the bright sun? Give me a break.
DMT
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clayman
Feb 15, 2006, 5:52 PM
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In reply to: But I guess we aren't climbing the same sort of routes, and we aren't trying to cover as many bases. I own over 40 guidebooks. I don't always know what I want to climb, much less what lurks in the dark recesses of my partner. The ability to 'thumb' a guidebook is sorely underrated here. DMT
You're probable right, I've got some uncovered bases for sure.
Sounds like you're a vinyl type of guy. I can relate to that.
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clayman
Feb 15, 2006, 5:57 PM
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dbl post
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dingus
Feb 15, 2006, 6:08 PM
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In reply to: Sounds like you're a vinyl type of guy. I can relate to that.
Actually no. I'm not a luddite. I like my cell phone and I like my spliff. Laptop too! Or something like that.
I also like to have good beta, not one of those 'do it in the dark' types either.
The technology to replace guidebooks isn't available yet. And technology for technology's sake alone? Not interested. Nothing you have suggested replaces the way I use printed guidebooks.
When we get to virtual displays, either HUD or some sort of 'neural' virtual view, by gawd then you might have something. Just plug a chip in the slot on your hip and you're wired and ready to go...
hmmm, what about viruses? I think I'll be sticking with reality for a while.
Cheers bro
DMT
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atpeaceinbozeman
Feb 15, 2006, 6:11 PM
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In reply to: Sitting at the pullout for the first good view of the Valley, down below the road's edge, quaffing a bowl and thumbing a well worn guidebook looking for today's inspiration?
George Gilder's essay Digital Darkhorse has similar ideas, but on why the newspaper will never die...good stuff.
Quaffing?
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clayman
Feb 15, 2006, 6:16 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Sounds like you're a vinyl type of guy. I can relate to that. Actually no. I'm not a luddite. I like my cell phone and I like my spliff. Laptop too! Or something like that. I also like to have good beta, not one of those 'do it in the dark' types either. The technology to replace guidebooks isn't available yet. And technology for technology's sake alone? Not interested. Nothing you have suggested replaces the way I use printed guidebooks. When we get to virtual displays, either HUD or some sort of 'neural' virtual view, by gawd then you might have something. Just plug a chip in the slot on your hip and you're wired and ready to go... hmmm, what about viruses? I think I'll be sticking with reality for a while. Cheers bro DMT
not "trying" to convince you of anything "bro", just ruminating on an idea. No need to paint with such a large brush
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dingus
Feb 15, 2006, 6:25 PM
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Actually I was quite "specific."
Bro.
DMT
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wes_allen
Feb 15, 2006, 6:30 PM
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You all are missing what the best situation is - a printed guidebook, backed up with an online guide that is searchable and configurable. Like the new rrg guidebook and the www.redriverclimbing.com online one - they work together to give you the best of both worlds: You can search for your 10a routes that stay dry that you haven't done yet the night before, and then print a list, or use a sticky pad in your printed guidebook to take to the crag with you, come home that night, update your online tick list, then re-sort next trip. That is the future.
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rockfax
Feb 15, 2006, 6:42 PM
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The future is now
http://www.rockfax.com/
Mick
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joeyo
Feb 15, 2006, 7:12 PM
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I'm pretty confident that all of the technologies we need to have digital guidebooks are already here. The biggest one is digital ink technology which is basically a bunch of little charged plastic bubbles, black on one side and white on the other. These have the super-huge advantages that they only use battery power when you change pages, and that they're illuminated with whatever ambient light you have (just like the guidebook is).
The first product (that I've found) using this technology is the Sony® Portable Reader System PRS-500. It's pricey and I'd expect fragile and otherwise inadequately designed, but it is the first product.
Now, you're not going to catch me using this thing as a guidebook any time soon. I love the feel of paper, the speed at which I can flip pages, the way my jtree guide conveniently stores all my little notes and scraps of paper, my tick-list (x marks the routes I've done), and any annotations (new bolts found, old bolts chopped).
I figure in a few years though... probably before I'm actually good at climbing...
-Joe
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csgambill
Feb 15, 2006, 7:29 PM
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So here's what needs to happen for this to become viable. First somebody needs to generate a big ass database of routes. This shouldn't be too much trouble. Then the device itself should be a gps/cell phone/pocket pc/.mp3 player that can fit in a pocket. I've got a Treo cell phone, and there's no way I'd want to look at routes on that tiny ass screen, so this new all-in-wonder device should project a hologram big enough that you can actually read, even in bright sunlight. The gps should be able to interface with the route database so you can not only look up routes based on a particular location, but also based on thier proximity to your actual present or future location. Obvioulsy it has to have some sort of sattelite connectivity to be able to acces the web from down in deep valleys. In addition, this thing has to be durable. It's got to withstand being banged around on sombody's rack, being dropped short distances or getting pissed on by a grizzly bear. Just for fun I think it should also have one of those shitty little useless bubble compasses like they put on wristwatches, like these:
http://www.selfdefensesupply.com/...images/hmv1173bk.jpg
j/k
For real though, I think a device like this could be very useful. But I also believe that paper books still have value. There's just something familliar and very comfortable about holding an actual book. I could read books on my Treo, but I prefer paper books. It's easy to take notes in them, you won't wake up a whole campsite with some giant hologram of El Cap. Although a more lascivious use for the hologram function could prove lucrative. :-) This sucker would be expensive to produce initially, lots of development costs. It's a lot cheaper to print a book.
Good luck to whoever wants to design and produce this sucker.
Now I'm running off to engineer and patent this thing. It's mine ha hahaha!
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wjca
Feb 15, 2006, 8:40 PM
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My idea for the future goes a couple of steps past what has been discussed so far. I want a head's up display on a pair of sunglasses fitted with a satellite receiver. The nano-tiny GPS devise knows exactly where I am (longitude, latitude and altitude), and in real time updates the rock/mountain in front of me. When I need it, the head's up display will give the information I need, as extensive as I would like it. For instance, if I am at the base of Cannon Cliff, wanting to climb Moby Grape, I can look up at the rock and the head's up display will overlay the route on the view I have of the rock, from my then current perspective. As I move closer or am oriented to the rock differently, the GPS will automatically adjust and the view in the head's up will update. In addition, if I so desire, I can get up to the minute weather updates, call my wife and tell her I did not die and am heading back to the car, get updates on the Bear's game or listen to Howard Stern. And for an additional $99.95, I'll get the accompanying Jolly Man Pocket Pack for the happy ending I need for the porn I plan to watch while belaying.
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zen_alpinist
Feb 15, 2006, 9:07 PM
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Registered: Apr 19, 2004
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Color me old-school, but Dingus is right on.
The only practical use for hand-held electronic technology would be for users at the gym or park-n-climb (5 minute hike) sport routes. Somewhere you are easily accessible at. Close to safety measures. A place to store pack up technology (paper, batteries, etc.) for when (and it will happen) the high-technology fails you.
Wilderness trad, multi-day big walls, high alpine in harsh environments...not a place for this type of thinking. (unless you have a *LOT* of money and are on a large, funded expedition with a lot of people to carry extra/redundant high-tech gear who are not part of the climb pe se)
Example: GPS is great. What happens when your batteries run out? Are you on a fast-n-light attack climb? Are you carrying that extra weight in the form of several batteries? Rockfall smashes your unit? Extreme cold causes it to function slowly? What happens when only one person in your group is proficient in using the GPS and he/she becomes incapacitated? Have you spent countless hours (10+ every week) practicing navigation skills with a map/compass? Did you even bring along a map and compass? When conserving weight, if you always bring along a map and compass, why not just use them instead of the added weight of the GPS?
There is a reason why low-tech is best in situations where you are far removed from civilization: you are going to be surrounded by materials that need low-tech skills in order to function. When (and if you are out enough, it will happen) things go FUBAR, you need to have survival skills that do not rely on high-technology.
I have a friend who almost solely relies on GPS to roam around. I know he doesn't have basic map navigation skills...let alone the natural *intuition* that an experienced backcountry adventurer needs to develop. I can place our position well enough to know where to go, while he is still fiddling waiting for the satellites to come in.
Now imagine your guidebook was purely electronic. What happens when it goes? Were you supposed to turn right, or left at that crack in the wall? Did you memorize the route description?
I think guidebooks will evolve to allow users greater control for printing out the exact data they need, say through a database backend. Allow additional beta to added by the user and maybe globally shared among all who have the guide. In the field, though, it should be as low-tech as possible in order to eliminate another item that could go bad and lead to trouble.
/disjointed-rant (thanks for listening)
(all that aside, since there are probably a larger number of "weekend warriors"/sport climbers/etc. out there, an electronic guidebook device would probably take off and sell well, as I think those people are quick to devour that sort of technology....and there is nothing wrong with that)
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markc
Feb 15, 2006, 9:18 PM
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Remember when computers were going to create the paperless office?
My guide for the NRG has had soda explode on it in the back of a friend's trunk, it's been kicked around in the dirt, dropped, etc. It's still holding up like a champ. These are all things I'd be unwilling to do to the new video iPods at $300 for the 30 Gig version. I certainly don't want to carry one up most routes. Screen size, resolution, and battery life are also large concerns.
There are a few benefits to virtual guides. An interactive guide that allows to to sort by exposure, grade, or even rack options could be very handy. The ability to update for new development or route changes without going to print is excellent. I think these are features that can enhance standard guides, but I think it's a bit too soon to shut down the presses.
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tslater
Feb 15, 2006, 9:19 PM
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Dude, why don't cars fly? Everyone told me 30 years ago we'd be flying by now. What's up with that?
Then I could put my guidebook CD in my stereo and my favorite band could sing the routes to me while I fly to the next crag.
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weschrist
Feb 15, 2006, 9:28 PM
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relax dingus, it isn't like we are calling for a ban on paperguide books... your rights to keep and bear books is not being threatened.
nearly every person I know who does longer climbs (III,IV,V) makes a photocopy of the route info and carries it in their pack, they are much lighter than the whole guide book and if it gets rained on no big deal. most every person who makes said copies owns a computer with a printer but not a copy machine... much easier to PRINT the topos than to go make photocopies.
it is pretty damn simple, you choose 5-10 climbs in the area that you want to tick, print them out, and toss them in your car... along with a few paper guidebooks for your low committment back-up areas (90% of which will not be used on any given trip). to say that the eguides are useless is just plain stupid.
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markc
Feb 15, 2006, 9:39 PM
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Registered: Jan 21, 2003
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In reply to: This sounds like the HitchHiker's guide.
I'm glad I'm not the only one to have that thought.
So long, and thanks for all the fish,
mark
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robdotcalm
Feb 15, 2006, 9:55 PM
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[quote="weschrist"]Supertopo PDF guidebooks have one huge problem, you cannot do a "search" for routes, etc. They are essentially just scanned graphics and Adobe can't search for specific words in the document (at least mine are that way).
I assume your using Acrobat Reader. In full versions of Acrobat, you can search for specific words.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
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weschrist
Feb 15, 2006, 10:18 PM
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No, I have the full version. The problem is that the document is NOT in text, it is essentially just a scanned image. Right, you would think they would do it in text format so you COULD search for stuff... but that isn't how they did the Red Rock guide.
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glyrocks
Feb 16, 2006, 12:39 AM
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GIS, people, GIS is the answer to all life's problems.
And that's what I see taking off more: geospatial guides/geodatabases. Geographic Information Systems can display spatially-referenced data. That means each piece of information (e.g. route name, grade, length, rating, protection type, FA) is attached to some feature (i.e. routes), and that feature has been attached to a very specific place in the world. Information like when the route is in the sun would be very simple thing to calculate because the GIS knows exactly where in the world the route is, and what direction it is facing.
So, you pull up a map of North Carolina, display all the trad climbing areas. Zoom in on, say, Rumbling Bald. Then zoom in on the Cereal Buttress. You could get either a 3D display, or a 2D display showing the outline of the cliff line. Either way, the starts of each route would be shown and you could very easily display information such as the route name, grade, etc. This could, of course, easily be displayed publicly online where people could add information as well. The problem, is the software costs mad cash and though easy to do, it's really f'ing time consuming to collect that kind of data and to initialize the mapping. You could have people submit coordinates from their little GPSs, but most of those are crappy, and most people don't really know what their numbers mean (e.g. datums, coordinate system vs. projection, spatial precision/accuracy). So to maintain the integrity of data, you'd want to collect yourself or one of your equally techy/not-so-cool friends.
Or, you could have a set of search criteria and have the results returned in an easy-to-print manner. You could ask it for routes that are 5 pitches with no pitch longer than 45m, are graded 5.9-5.10d, require trad gear, and are shaded in the late afternoon. Obviously the more requirements, the fewer the results, and your results will only be as good as your data. Because you define the returns, you can bring as much or as little information about the area as you want. And you won't have to carry your yuppie Nano, or Palm with you, because that's a dumbshit thing to carry around when you're climbing. So, you get both the digital, easy to edit guide, and the easy to read, thumb through, and carry guidebook. Doesn't GIS just make everyone's life better? Just kidding; but I am, obviously, a GIS geek.
I've been wanting to develop one such guide for some small local area as a pilot project. Any Raleigh, NC GIS techs want to help with a side-project?
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weschrist
Feb 16, 2006, 12:43 AM
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you gotta pay attention to the accuracy issue. I know a guide book author who just took GPS readings for boulder locations and somewhat blindly made maps from the data.... most people could have drawn a more accurate map just by looking at the area...
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letolives
Feb 16, 2006, 12:46 AM
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I would NEVER EVER take anything that resembles technology to the crag. I'll be in the wilderness at the advent of the second coming and any ipod totting miscreant better be miles away from me lest the government find me and my family armed to the teeth. I don't trust any of you technocrats and you can burn in hell.
I'll be watching for you and your technology demons at the crags.
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dingus
Feb 16, 2006, 1:16 AM
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In reply to: relax dingus,
Bite me.
DMT
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glyrocks
Feb 16, 2006, 4:27 AM
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In reply to: you gotta pay attention to the accuracy issue. I know a guide book author who just took GPS readings for boulder locations and somewhat blindly made maps from the data.... most people could have drawn a more accurate map just by looking at the area...
Yea, that's why it would take more than just the cheesy hand-helds you can buy at REI and Wal-Mart. Boulders... a boulder guidebook would be a little more difficult. To even come close to the usefulness and accuracy of a hand drawn guide, you'd need a really f'ing nice handheld, a base station, and error correcting capabilities- not something the average person has available.
EDIT: Also, it would be pretty easy to digitize (draw) routes or problems in based on your own local knowledge. The problem comes in dealing with thousands of routes/problems. I don't see routes being as big of a problem because the starts are usually far enough apart. And I don't really care about bouldering...
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glyrocks
Feb 16, 2006, 4:34 AM
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In reply to: I would NEVER EVER take anything that resembles technology to the crag.
I guess you walk to the crag or boulder field and climb barefoot and gearless then.
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papounet
Feb 16, 2006, 12:41 PM
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Registered: May 28, 2003
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I am regularly participating in road trip in remote desert areas such as Algeria, Jordan (and soon Mali).
It takes a considerable time to get advance information as guide books are non existant , obsolete or out of print, simple map better than 1:200.000 are not available (and, there is no quality sat pictures of those countries, no). You may find some beta on Internet, but the quality is random. I can't imagine depending on complex technology soon because the data is where the cost is. and this time preparing th climbs is not totally lost, it has some value.
So we end usually end up with the paper book safely stashed at the base camp and photocopies of the relevant pages (guide or internet) in our pockets and a compass and a headlamp and in fact all the anti-epic kit we should have when adventuring.
We do not need yet an additional device to take care of, to carry and have battery for.
I am rather techno and gear oriented. I have, of course, used GPS to try to locate some routes for my immediate use or for providing better beta to other climbers.
... and yet...
although I got lost en route more than once and I have been misled by some poorly made topos, I am not looking for ultra-precise information. I do not need a GPS coordinates on each and every holds. I am not a puppet to repeat move by move the topo writer idea of the route up a face.
I am of the opinion that most climbers would benefit more from improving their own terrain reading ability than from a "magical device".
Edit: I just found today a GPS location for the burdah arch in the Wadi Tum area in Jordan http://www.travelbygps.com/...um/jordan/jordan.php At leat I can google earth now. The 15 days I spend there on foot with maps helps me make sense of the pic, not the reverse.
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