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lil_monkey


Jun 17, 2006, 4:46 PM
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prussik length
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About how long is the standard length for a prussik and how long should i get the accessory cord so i have room to tie the two double fishermen's knots and still have the prussik the length i want it.

peace!


moose_droppings


Jun 17, 2006, 5:13 PM
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5'-6', tie off the loop to whatever size you want. I use an EDK.


rockguide


Jun 17, 2006, 6:45 PM
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About how long is the standard length for a prussik and how long should i get the accessory cord so i have room to tie the two double fishermen's knots and still have the prussik the length i want it.

peace!

There is no standard length of prussik as there is no standard method of prussiking. I use two 5 metre lengths but that ends up with excess cord. (my prussiks also double for rock rescue where the added length is helpful. I use the EDK, like the poster before. I could use 2 1.5 metre prussiks as well, if there were some over the shoulder slings available.

Have you prussiked before? If so, you know your system and should be able to measure more precisely. If not, find some one who does, or a book about it and base your lengths on that. Your height may play a role in the lengths.

If you have not prussiked before, are not about to learn, and just want them "in case", you have placed the cart squarely in front of the horse.


lil_monkey


Jun 17, 2006, 6:48 PM
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yes, i have prussiked before, i'm just trying to find out how much extra cord i need to factor in for the knot


kachoong


Jun 17, 2006, 7:15 PM
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...I ususally use 25-30 times the diameter of the cord/rope to use for the knot... so for 6mm prussik - about 150-180mm for each knot... I make a few different length prussiks and carry them all together. Each length will serve a different purpose. The length I find versatile is about 60 cm (about 24")... so I guess that's 120cm of cord plus a bit over 30cm for the knots (1.5m total). I like to use shorter one's for use as an autoblock when rapping... etc. etc... there's plenty of different lengths and uses...


jimdavis


Jun 17, 2006, 7:16 PM
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In reply to:
yes, i have prussiked before, i'm just trying to find out how much extra cord i need to factor in for the knot
It depends on the diameter of the cord you use. Ask whoever cuts the cord for you, and if they don't know...just tie a double fishermans in the cord and measure it at the store before you cut it. Then you'll know exactally what length to get.

Of course, the stuff only costs .25$/ foot or less, so tacking on an extra foot or 2, just to be sure you have enough, is hardly a costly option.

Cheers,
Jim


cintune


Jun 17, 2006, 7:19 PM
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Accessory cord is cheap, just get a good long piece, like 30 ft. or so, and experiment with different knots and lengths until you come up with your own answer to the question. You can always find uses for any leftover cord.


notch


Jun 18, 2006, 12:46 PM
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I use the EDK, like the poster before.
I've never known anyone to use an EDK for a prussik. How standard is this? I suppose the benefit is that it would be easier to untie. I suppose the danger is that it would be easier to untie. I'll stick to a double fisherman's on each side.

Now to answer the question; 5 feet is pretty standard for a 2 foot prussik.


deltav


Jun 18, 2006, 2:05 PM
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Depends on what you are using the prusik for. For rappel back up, I use 3'. For rescues, I think mine is 6'.


majid_sabet


Jun 18, 2006, 2:48 PM
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140 cm for short size
155 cm for long size

min diameter of the prusik is 50% to 75% of the rope diameter size

if you are using 11 mm rope size then use 7 or 8 mm cord
10.2 rope use 7 mm cord
9.8 mm rope use 6 or 7 mm prusik cord


curtis_g


Jun 18, 2006, 3:24 PM
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cut yourself a 7' cord length per prussik, tie in loop w/double fishermans
good to go.

I looked for this answer before when I was making my firsts and wish someone would just spit out a fricken number.

SEVEN FOOT LENGTH OF CORD


jimdavis


Jun 18, 2006, 4:03 PM
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In reply to:
cut yourself a 7' cord length per prussik, tie in loop w/double fishermans
good to go.

I looked for this answer before when I was making my firsts and wish someone would just spit out a fricken number.

SEVEN FOOT LENGTH OF CORD

Just cause you come across like you think 7' is the answer.....your wrong. :twisted:

I can't think of 1 thing I would want a 7' piece of cord for. Too long for rap backups, and too short for most everything else.

The answer is: it depends on what your using it for.

Cheers,
Jim


dirtineye


Jun 18, 2006, 7:21 PM
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OMFG, people really use the EDK to join their prussik loops?

That's retarded.

It is also retarded to ask the original question, when all you have to do is get a little extra, tie some loops, try em out, and adjust em til you like what you have.

IF you are going to ascend with em, it is good to have one longer than the other-- but you can always adjust em as you need to, depending on what you are doing.

Standard Prussik stuff:

Beware the three wrap prussik, use 4 wraps.

make sure your prussik cord is not too fat for the rope you are using it on. Screw the percentages, 3mm less than the rope diam is good enough.

YOU don't want to rely on 3mm accessory cord though, but since that might mean you were climbing on a 6 mm line, I don't think it will be a problem.

5 mm works great on 8mm rope, and it works on the bigger ropes too.

Guess what size I use?

And if you are going to prussik your way into the Prussik Hall of Fame, figure out what an alpine clutch is, and how to use it. Your prussiking life will be much easier.


anykineclimb


Jun 18, 2006, 9:54 PM
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Klemheist with a runner.

done.


curtis_g


Jun 18, 2006, 10:37 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
cut yourself a 7' cord length per prussik, tie in loop w/double fishermans
good to go.

I looked for this answer before when I was making my firsts and wish someone would just spit out a fricken number.

SEVEN FOOT LENGTH OF CORD

Just cause you come across like you think 7' is the answer.....your wrong. :twisted:

I can't think of 1 thing I would want a 7' piece of cord for. Too long for rap backups, and too short for most everything else.

The answer is: it depends on what your using it for.

Cheers,
Jim

no, actually, I'm right. I use 7' length for my prussiks. That's the question he asked. It was a simple and very generic question. 7' is my answer. That's what I do with dub fishermans and it turns out nicely.

But I do agree with anykineclimb and prefer the Klemheist.


delrio


Jun 19, 2006, 3:39 AM
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Klemheist with a runner.


... Or "FB-Sling friction knot" with sewn sling... http://www.gudelius.de/fb1.htm

http://mypage.bluewin.ch/...bachmann/fbsling.jpg


dandruff1138


Jun 19, 2006, 7:02 PM
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DelRio you just taught me something new. I will try this out this weekend. I am just concerned about the friction melting. haha thanks man I like the simplicity and I trust runners more then a 8 mm cord.


majid_sabet


Jun 19, 2006, 11:02 PM
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DelRio you just taught me something new. I will try this out this weekend. I am just concerned about the friction melting. haha thanks man I like the simplicity and I trust runners more then a 8 mm cord.

You have not seen the difference between 8mm cord and runner in real action.

Runner is not intend to be used as prusik, you may kill yourself.

my 2 cents


Partner climbinginchico


Jun 19, 2006, 11:43 PM
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Klemheist with a runner.

done.

bingo! 8^)


anykineclimb


Jun 20, 2006, 1:37 AM
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DelRio you just taught me something new. I will try this out this weekend. I am just concerned about the friction melting. haha thanks man I like the simplicity and I trust runners more then a 8 mm cord.

You have not seen the difference between 8mm cord and runner in real action.

Runner is not intend to be used as prusik, you may kill yourself.
my 2 cents

your two cents are useless, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about.

Runners are perfectly fine for prussiking (the act of using some sort of knot/ hitch to ascend a rope)
If they are oh so dangerous what about the Bachman? Klemheist? autoblock? They've all been used FOR YEARS.

The only time I would use an actual prussik is in a rescue situation where the friction hitch may be unattended. Oh and I sure as Hell aren't going to use 8mm cord. thats a bit large. the prussik cord should be NO MORE than 50% diameter of the rope you're wrapping it on.


dirtineye


Jun 20, 2006, 5:16 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
DelRio you just taught me something new. I will try this out this weekend. I am just concerned about the friction melting. haha thanks man I like the simplicity and I trust runners more then a 8 mm cord.

You have not seen the difference between 8mm cord and runner in real action.

Runner is not intend to be used as prusik, you may kill yourself.
my 2 cents

your two cents are useless, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about.

Runners are perfectly fine for prussiking (the act of using some sort of knot/ hitch to ascend a rope)
If they are oh so dangerous what about the Bachman? Klemheist? autoblock? They've all been used FOR YEARS.

The only time I would use an actual prussik is in a rescue situation where the friction hitch may be unattended. Oh and I sure as Hell aren't going to use 8mm cord. thats a bit large. the prussik cord should be NO MORE than 50% diameter of the rope you're wrapping it on.

Some mod-nazi, please get rid of this post.

IT is confusing to the uninitiated, and rather uninformed.

Plus, What Major Sorbet says is absolutely correct about the PRUSSIK KNOT we all know and love not being meant for use in runners. The common Prussik is meant for cord.

The auto block is sometimes called a french prussik, but I personally would never use this knot for ascending, as it can be easily disturbed to the point of holding nothing, when unweighted and especially before setting.

THe normal use ofthe kleimheist is for static purposes, as in setting up a controlled release intermediate anchor in a belay escape or knot passing scenario, but you can ascend with it, although I think the prussik is much easier.

NOTE that the Prussik will load from either direction and not fail, this is not true of the auto block or kleimheist.

Standard Prussik knot stuff: use a 4 wrap prussik, not a three wrap. The rule of thumb is, 3mm less than the rope you put the prussik on. as in, 8mm for 11 mm, 7mm for ten mm 6 mm for 9 mm, and 5mm for 8 mm.

BTW, 5 mm works just fine on 11 mm and 10.5 mm rope. My three prussik loops are 5 mm, and live on my harness all the time, along with an alpine clutch.

You can carp about % of diam all you want, but most people can't calculate % easily, but they can see a difference of 3 pretty well.

This prussik nonsense come up evey few months. Isn't it time for a decent FAQ, that deals with all the idiotic repetition and bad advice?


anykineclimb


Jun 20, 2006, 5:37 AM
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I'll totally agree with you that runners cannot be used for a prussik knot.

Dandruff was telling Delrio how he liked the knot he provided a link to (which uses a runner) There was NEVER any mention of using a runner as a PRUSSIK KNOT. The problem is the double use of the word Prussik; I took him to mean the verb, not the noun. Sort of like Jumar.



BTW, I too use 5mm for my prussiks


sonus


Jun 20, 2006, 7:31 AM
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In reply to:
BTW, 5 mm works just fine on 11 mm and 10.5 mm rope. My three prussik loops are 5 mm, and live on my harness all the time, along with an alpine clutch.

How do you keep an alpine clutch on your harness? Just a pair of ovals?


majid_sabet


Jun 20, 2006, 1:17 PM
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I'll totally agree with you that runners cannot be used for a prussik knot.

Dandruff was telling Delrio how he liked the knot he provided a link to (which uses a runner) There was NEVER any mention of using a runner as a PRUSSIK KNOT. The problem is the double use of the word Prussik; I took him to mean the verb, not the noun. Sort of like Jumar.



BTW, I too use 5mm for my prussiks

so you are saying 50% or less, now what size prusik do you use for rescue
4 mm prusik on a 11 mm rope or 5 mm prusik on a 11 mm rope ?

Why do not use just 3mm cord , its even lighter.


majid_sabet


Jun 20, 2006, 1:21 PM
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....


Partner slacklinejoe


Jun 20, 2006, 2:04 PM
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... Or "FB-Sling friction knot" with sewn sling... http://www.gudelius.de/fb1.htm

Dang, that's just sweet. A hybrid between a klehmist & pebernathy (spelling?).

Does it work in those 6 or 8 mm mammut slings? I'd gladly ditch accessory cord that is more single purpose than carrying a few slings.


moose_droppings


Jun 20, 2006, 3:16 PM
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OMFG, people really use the EDK to join their prussik loops?

That's retarded.

The only dumb question is the one thats not asked, so......

Would you care to elaborate on this statement?


Partner slacklinejoe


Jun 20, 2006, 3:48 PM
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OMFG, people really use the EDK to join their prussik loops?

That's retarded.

The only dumb question is the one thats not asked, so......

Would you care to elaborate on this statement?

EDK is useful for joining ends of ropes for rappel but even then there are major concerns that must be addressed when using it at all - some of these charcteristics make it less than ideal for prussik use (or at least in my mind it does when comparing the charachteristics of the knot vs it's alternatives such as the double fishermans).

EDK is good for being a non-bulky knot where the tails / knot are less likely to get hung on rock protrusions, it's also easy to undo after being loaded - that's the main selling point of the EDK and neither are are issues when using a prussik.

Safety concerns for EDK
isn't ideal for cyclical loading / unloading
if not dressed extremely vigilantly can be significantly weaker and "roll"
is usually not used anywhere loads beyond what rappeling produces are found - unfortunately I do not have a research study handy that mentions the knots strength - and I've never heard of any research of that knot being used in accessory cord at all.
it's common failure method is rolling (again, may be because of the dressing - can't remember) so you could come completely disconnected long before approaching the breaking strength of the cord.

I've actually never heard of anyone using the EDK in prussik cords until this thread - oddly there were two posters doing so which is very unusual.


cintune


Jun 20, 2006, 6:13 PM
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Does it work in those 6 or 8 mm mammut slings?
Sure does. Probably have to be replaced sooner than cord, but worth it, I think.


moose_droppings


Jun 20, 2006, 6:54 PM
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EDK is good for being a non-bulky knot where the tails / knot are less likely to get hung on rock protrusions, it's also somewhat easier to undo after being loaded - that's the main selling point of the EDK and neither are are issues when using a prussik
Both of those are reasons I use it. Non bulky for when you pull the knot thru the loop in the Klemheist, which is the friction knot I prefer. Also easy to untie when I need it for another purpose or to adjust the size of the loop.
In reply to:
Safety concerns for EDK
isn't ideal for cyclical loading / unloading
if not dressed extremely vigilantly can be significantly weaker and "roll"
is usually not used anywhere loads beyond what rappeling produces are found - unfortunately I do not have a research study handy that mentions the knots strength - and I've never heard of any research of that knot being used in accessory cord at all.

All knots if not properly tied and set are a death knot, and all knots should utilize a backup knot(shouldn't even need to be said). All the data I've read on the EDK suggest the knot is far safer than everyone is concerned about. With body weight alone and a well set knot , rolling isn't problematic, and with a backup overhand, it doesn't even roll. If by knot strength your talking about what the overall strength is left after tying the knot, I would think that a 7mm tied with an EDK has more strength left in it than a 5mm tied with a DF.


Partner slacklinejoe


Jun 20, 2006, 7:18 PM
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All knots if not properly tied and set are a death knot, and all knots should utilize a backup knot(shouldn't even need to be said). All the data I've read on the EDK suggest the knot is far safer than everyone is concerned about.

Backup knots are generally considered unnecessary with the doube/tripple fishermans, proper tails of 2 x the knot length are required though (same across the board). If you are backing up the EDK, it likely is more bulky than the DF knot. The EDK isn't normally backed up when being used in most discussions - so basically you're using a doubled overhand, not the EDK.

All the data you've read on EDK was in climbing rope (unless you've seen something I haven't) - not accessory cord where the margins are much lower and the handling & other characteristics are significantly different.

The whole issue with cyclical loading is still a major concern that isn't going away - people quit using the bowline in it's non-backed up form over those very valid concerns.

Do I trust the EDK for rappels, yes - over the years it has gotten a bad rap. Will I conjecture to promote it over knots which are much less prone to failure for general usage, no.

Regardless, I don't plan on convincing you to change your ways - that's fine as long as I don't have to carry you out., but if you are encouraging a non-standard method over a more standardized method without some major research or major reason you should plan on backing your claims up or get a little flak about it.


rockguide


Jun 21, 2006, 11:12 AM
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wow - my reference to the EDK on prussiks started some interesting flames.

Classic case of catching glimpses of parts of people's climbing systems and not seeing the whole deal.

For years I tied my prussiks with double fisherman's knots. Measured the lengths exactly, tied the DFK properly (4 parallels on one side, two Xs the other) then bounced the cord a bit to set the knots. It fit with rope ascending patterns I was trained in and was comfortable with. Same era I was bouncing my waterknots for the shoulder and double slings I was using (sewn webbing came later).

For those applications the EDK would be ineffective. Why tie such an unstable knot in a permanent loop?

I use accessory cord (aka prussik cords) for other purposes than rope ascending. Rock rescue, anchor building (rarely) retreat slings, tieing items to the pack, occasionally stringing up a tarp, etc. These purposes are best started with unknotted accessory cord.

When I need to ascend a rope I tie the prussik to the rope at the appropriate landmark, run one strand through my tie in points, and do the overhand on the side below it. Measure distances on the spot, adjust as needed and go. Not the strongest of knots, but loads are low - and if by some odd chance loads increase, the dynamic rope that stretches above absorbs the force.

There is more to the game than that - but it works in my systems.

The people who use the EDK in their accessory cords to prussik probably use similar systems. Those who clip permanent loops, should not use the EDK for their permanent loops.

If I have to use accessory cord for an anchor (less common now - and assumes that I have a cord that can handle anchoring loads) The EDK is inappropriate. The double fisherman's is the knot of choice.

Brian

(ps if you haven't used the rope ascending system I was half describing, get someone who knows it to show you. There are some content gaps).


lil_monkey


Jun 21, 2006, 11:35 AM
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Re: prussik length [In reply to]
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woah, thanx for all your answers. i feel kinda bad stopping this argument because i was kinda enjoying reading it but let me just say i'm making prussiks using 5 or 6 mm accessory cord and i am using a double fisherman's to tie them. im not looking to get into new ways of tying them, at least not online, (i do know about the friction knot already, i just don't trust it as much 'cause im funny like that).


btym


Oct 1, 2012, 10:27 AM
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Re: [lil_monkey] prussik length [In reply to]
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Here's a helpful table for good recommended lengths for purcell prusiks... lengths would probably be similar is you were using a dub-fish instead of going purcell style.

http://http://swiftwaterrescue.com/technical-rope-rescue/trr-skill-purcell-prussik-building/


acorneau


Oct 1, 2012, 6:40 PM
Post #35 of 36 (977 views)
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Re: [btym] prussik length [In reply to]
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btym wrote:
Here's a helpful table for good recommended lengths for purcell prusiks... lengths would probably be similar is you were using a dub-fish instead of going purcell style.

http://http://swiftwaterrescue.com/technical-rope-rescue/trr-skill-purcell-prussik-building/


Whoa...

Holy six-year-old thread revival, Batman!

Oh, and made clicky:

http://swiftwaterrescue.com/...ll-prussik-building/


Marylandclimber


Oct 2, 2012, 1:54 PM
Post #36 of 36 (909 views)
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Re: [btym] prussik length [In reply to]
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I think in six years he/she found out how to tie and use a prussik... But atleast you didn't make a new thread for this.


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