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clymber


Sep 3, 2002, 2:17 PM
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I just got some hooks and I am a newbie with them. Was wondering what is best for making slings Using webbing and a water knot or small cord and a grapevine or is there some other way.The hooks I got are BD 1 grappeling and 1 cliffhanger. Thanks


rollingstone


Sep 3, 2002, 3:23 PM
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I like 9/16ths supertape tied in an overhand knot (leave enough end to cinch up tight as you stand in it), and stuffed through the eye of the hook. Practice and experience will dictate how long you can comfortably have the loop; I like to have about 4" of usable loop. I have only used hooks on granite, so I do not know if different types of rock might necessitate different sling lengths...


pbjosh


Sep 3, 2002, 3:59 PM
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The overhand knot should also be on the outside of the hook, ie opposite the point that'll contact the rock. This will help cam the hook in/down towards the rock.

For cam hooks some people simply tie a loop through the hole - mine are currently slung like other hooks (overhand with the loop poked through) and I haven't had any complaints but I haven't climbed the Reticent either.

josh


whipper


Sep 3, 2002, 4:16 PM
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They got it right but be sure to leave plenty of tail and check your knots before each wall. I actually had one come undone.


manacubus


Sep 3, 2002, 4:50 PM
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I would recommend tying a loop on the cam hooks, otherwise you're prone to having the sling slide through and losing it. For regular hooks though, I tie as the others above suggest. One last thing - don't have the loop too long, you need as much height as you can get!


taxexile


Sep 4, 2002, 12:47 AM
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I'll second what Manacubus says. On the weekend I was on a rather dodgy hook and the next (bomber) piece was just 1 inch out of reach. I had cinched my fifi and my sphincter as tight as possible and just couldn't reach it, necessitating a move up onto the second step in my aiders. I was cursing myself as I could have easily reached it had I tied the hook sling shorter.


wigglestick


Sep 4, 2002, 6:42 AM
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Ok, dumb question. What is the second hole for on BD hooks?



As usual I have a theory. Maybe this is stupid and you all will point this out to me right away. What I do is tie the sling so that the overhand knot is bumping up against the top hole just like the picture shows (except in the top hole) and then I weave the inside strand (the strand against the hook, not the rock) back through the bottom hole. I did this because I lost a couple of slings by them dropping out of the hole. This method keeps the sling attached to the hook but also doesn't really change the configuration on the sling & hook.


mountainmonkey


Sep 4, 2002, 8:38 AM
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The way I sling my hooks is to tie the sling with the double overhand as shown in the picture. I thread the loop end into the top hole of the hook (toward the rock) and then out through the bottom hole (knot on outside of top hole, loop end on outside of bottom hole). This makes it so the webbing doesn't interfere with the 'feet' of the hook. It only very slightly changes the way the hook is oriented on the rock - it causes slightly more outward force, but the difference should be insignificant for most routes. It is also harder to have the hook slide off the webbing. I also use a loop w/ water knot for my cam hooks - then they can't fall off.

Maybe there is a doctor in the house to clear this up? There is always a better way.

casey


freeclmr


Sep 6, 2002, 2:10 AM
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last week Pete nearly yelled at me for having about 4" of loop off of my hooks. He promptly had me reduce them all with a overhand knot to about 1". He also recommended finishing off the 1" of loose ends with a strip of duct tape wrapped around them. I used them on Monday and gained 3" of height I otherwise would not have had.
Brian


twrock


Sep 8, 2002, 5:38 PM
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Regarding the two holes in the BD model, I stuff one end of the tape through the top hole and one through the bottom hole, both from the rock side of the hook. Then I tie an overhand knot as pictured on the outside of the hook. The tape still runs on down the inside (rock side) of the hook where it belongs, but the resulting loop can not slip off the hook.

In other models of hooks there is something you can do to reduce the chance the loop will slip back through the hole. Take the loops out of your hooks. Use your trusty "Singer" sewing machine and sew a fat bartack about 1/2 inch below the knot, just below where the tape will hang down below the bottom of the hook. Make it thick. Now after you have a heck of a time reinserting the loop back through the hole, you will understand why this will help the loops not slip out. Additionally you can stitch the two loose ends together just above the knot to make it a little harder for the knot to slip and come undone. I suppose you could even go for "overkill" and fold the loose ends over once before stitching.

[ This Message was edited by: twrock on 2002-09-08 17:41 ]


brisboy


Sep 10, 2002, 7:29 PM
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exatly like in the pic above, or get some one like fish yates etc to sew a sling through the both holes or just the bottom one, i have seen guys with all sorts of slings and a people have said before evn ones with slings a good 11" long make it short and neat.

Oh also remeber to pre strech the sling on a good place mnet near the ground, or clip the sling to a bolt or someting to make sur ethe sling is nice and tight, saves the little scare factor while on a hook move and the knot starts to slip in to place or through the hole

[ This Message was edited by: brisboy on 2002-09-10 19:31 ]


apollodorus


Sep 10, 2002, 7:47 PM
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The second hole in the BD hooks is for properly tying the sling in. Notice that the hook can come off the sling.

The old Chouinard GPIW catalogs said that the webbing should go through both holes, and tie off with a water knot on the outside, leaving 1" tails.

Another thing you might do, if you want to have the sling come out of the bottom hole only, is to feed the ends up and around and out the top hole and tie the overhand there.

I guess you could also tie it the way in the picture, and then duct-tape the sling to the hook.

When you're on a wall, ANYTHING that can fall off will. Karl Baba has a funny story online (no, not at this website) about doing the Shield with guy who dropped his hammer ("The knot came undone . . . ").

Here it is:

Karl's Funny Shield Story

This link has been updated to the original with photos.



[ This Message was edited by: apollodorus on 2002-12-19 01:47 ]


punk


Sep 10, 2002, 9:39 PM
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A picture worth a thousand words

http://home.comcast.net/~nericarmi/Hooks.jpg

Hope it helped


Partner drector


Sep 10, 2002, 9:53 PM
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I was told to use 1/2 inch webbing. Shoreline is the only place that I've shopped that has it and they indicate that it is for hooks. I heard of the lighter 1/2 webbing is also used for hero loops but I don't peg or pin or hammer on anything so I don't know.

I'm thinking of getting my hooks all sewn like that picture above (or on the previous page) shows on one of the hooks. Knots suck.

As for sewing the cam hook, since it is for body-weight only, I might sew it myself by by doing a double fold on the climber side of the hook. Any hints or condemnations are accepted on the idea.

Dave

[ This Message was edited by: drector on 2002-09-10 22:01 ]


punk


Sep 11, 2002, 9:15 AM
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Hey Dave,
I see where u coming from, however Knots are great since u can manipulate the length of the tie and they are easy to make the sawn are good too if in need of a specific size and long time durability Ideally u will have a mixture of both methods to answer all
BTW
Don’t risk on stitching the "body weight only" sling yourself you much better off knoting it yourself, it is allot stronger, in case u don’t send it to be professionally install (its only $2.5).


Partner drector


Sep 11, 2002, 9:56 AM
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Punk,

Can you tell me where I can get a sling sewn for $2.50? There are a few custom items I want sewn and I'm ignorant on the subject.

I hear you about the sewing it myself. I read about self-sewn gear in the book "On Rope." It even talks about how many stitches to use to hold thousands of pounds. Items that hold more than body weight. They even show how to make some custom ascending gear.

I'll still have it done if it's under $5.

Thanks,

Dave

[ This Message was edited by: drector on 2002-09-11 10:05 ]


punk


Sep 11, 2002, 10:08 AM
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Here u go man mountain Tools


grigriese


Sep 11, 2002, 3:48 PM
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Drector,

Don't sew anything that your life depends on yourself when it is so cheap to have something sewn professionally. The pros use machines and nylon thread that is so heavy duty that you couldn't even really compare holding power with anything you'd do at home. I agree with punk, use mountain tools - cheap and professionally done. Your hooks witht heir sewn slings will be the envy of everyone with a bulk of water knots.


paintinhaler


Sep 11, 2002, 4:35 PM
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I have saw people use them for hard sport climbs but keep them on there wrist. Whats with this?


punk


Sep 11, 2002, 4:38 PM
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I think its some sort of modified FiFi and ability to rest method …but I never saw it…I don’t sport climb much


paintinhaler


Sep 11, 2002, 4:42 PM
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They use then on there wrist and there hand over it. They can hit tiny holds and climb it easy. This is way cheating, isnt it?


punk


Sep 11, 2002, 5:07 PM
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I will assume so…
HELL YEAH!!!


Partner drector


Sep 11, 2002, 5:28 PM
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grigriese,

Hooks aren't used as protection, just aid, so my life really doesn't depend on them unless I'm up there at A4 or A5 (or is that C4 or C5?). I have the proper thread and using a slow stiching method doesn't melt the webbing. I'm sure it would work fine.

No matter. It was all speculation. Now that I have the info, I'll have them sewn for me. Sewing is a pain in the ass and takes way too long.

I think they should sell them pre-sewn.

Dave


bigwalling


Sep 11, 2002, 6:51 PM
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Hooks are used for protection.


karlbaba


Sep 28, 2002, 10:34 PM
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The link Tom gave for my Shield Trip Report is for a text version. The one on my site with pictures is more fun! I find that hooks are especially prone to knot drift!read the trip report.


atg200


Oct 11, 2002, 2:34 PM
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i've whipped onto a camhook and a hook. pretty damn glad they both had full strength runners. no sense sabotaging your own gear.

fish will also throw a few bartacks in whatever you need. go russ.


mshore


Nov 6, 2002, 11:17 AM
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yeah - hooks are used for pro - atleast I use them. recently did a route and left a bathook in a drilled hole with a runner on it and I took a leader fall 3 feet or so off a #1 brassie that blew and onto a leeper hook that did not move - all within 20 feet. It was totally safe.

as for webbing - I use single length runner material and tie the overhand knot. The tape is way more suspect to dirt, break down, sunlight and I did not have to buy tape since most slings i retire have good sections of webbing to use.

[ This Message was edited by: mshore on 2002-11-06 11:20 ]


passthepitonspete


Dec 19, 2002, 1:14 PM
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Mountainmonkey wrote,

Quote:"Maybe there is a doctor in the house to clear this up? There is always a better way."

Clearly Casey "gets it".

[Dr. Piton glances up from his cup of coffee, bleary-eyed, and wonders how he missed this post. Ah-ha, he realizes, he was actually up here on the wall when the question was first posed...]


[Like]me, eh?]


When it comes to slinging hooks, there is most emphatically a Better Way. I cannot believe how wrongly many climbers sling their hooks! [Well, I reckon I can, because I used to do it, too] Perhaps this is because I have yet to see anything drawn or published that tells you everything you need to know. Sure, you get little snippets here and there, but if you're going to do it, you might as well do it right, eh?

So things are about to change for the better.
Depending on your outlook, hooking can be the most terrifying thing or the most fun thing you do while aid climbing! Having your hooks slung correctly is the first step in converting your fear to enjoyment.




DR. PITON'S BIG WALL TIPS

HOW TO SLING YOUR HOOKS

It's that time of year again, time when fair-weather aid climbers like me huddle up in front of the fireplace with a loaf of bread, a jug of wine, and something to fondle.

And what could possibly be more fun to fondle than your gear?! Especially hooks! What a merry jingle they make when fondled! Heck, you can even use them on your Christmas tree to hang up ornaments! Dr. Piton would love to see such a photo inserted into this post. [HINT]

When it comes to slinging your hooks, there are a few things you should keep in mind. These are the most common mistakes I see, and something you can fix very easily.


STUFF YOU NEED for this exercise is as follows:
Pair of scissors or knife [to cut off all your old slings that you have certainly slung incorrectly]
Marlin spike, in case you are a cheap bastard, and merely want to untie your wrongly-tied slings

Plenty of 9/16" webbing in two or three different colours

Big Wall Lighter so you can burn the slings when done

Duct tape for sealing the knot



SLING 'EM UN-SLIPPERY!

Dumb word, eh? I couldn't think of a better one. What I mean is, do not use spectra, kevlar, or any "slippery" type of nylon when you sling your hooks! Knots in this kind of stuff will not hold, and you will be in for a nasty shock when you see the knots in your sling coming undone before your very eyes, predictably in the worst possible situation.

The sole exception to this rule would be if you are sewing your slings onto your hooks.



SLING 'EM FOR REDUNDANCY!

If you are going to venture onto the big wall, you need to rack for redundancy. Simply put, this means not putting all of the same thing onto a single crab. This is because if you happen to drop that carabiner, you are basically buggered.

Nowhere is this more important than with your hooks! Your hooks are critical to your success.

When I made my solo ascent of Zed-Em, I was watching a Japanese soloist attempting Sea of Dreams. [It took him hours to make that desperate move onto the Continental Shelf - heh heh!] Anyway, buddy cruises the Hook or Book Pitch, one of El Cap's first "if you fall you die" pitches, and then a day or two later, I see him bailing! I couldn't figure out why as he had been doing well.

A week or so later I caught up with him, after recognizing his blue helmet. He told me he bailed because he dropped both of his Cliffhanger [regular Chouinard skyhook] hooks, and didn't want to continue for fear of needing such a critical piece.

I told him I knew precisely how he felt! You can click here to read where I - Dr. Piton - dropped all of our hooks. Sheesh.

If you are unfamiliar with the concept of racking for redundancy, then please click here to Ask Dr. Piton ... about how to rack your rack. This is a Dr. Piton SIGNATURE POST, meaning you should know it backwards, forwards and sideways.

Fortunately, there is no gear easier to rack for redundancy than your hooks!

All you need to do is to tie each set of hooks with the same colour of sling. Then you can [at] put one full set on a single carabiner, without ever having to worry about accidentally having two of the same hook in the same place.

Clever, eh?

If you are climbing with a partner, then you might be able to get away with only two sets of hooks. But if you are climbing in a team of one, then you had best have three sets - at least in the critical Grappling and Cliffhanger [Sky] pieces - with each set tied in its own colour.



SLING 'Em RIGHT!

You must sling your hooks in the correct orientation - sling them from the outside in. This way, when you weight your hook, the sling is pulling the hook inwards and towards the rock, rather than outwards and away from the rock.
This is essential, and offers the side benefit of allowing you to keep an eye on your knots.

You will have to push through a loop of sling from the outside in, and tie the free ends of the tape in a water knot. You want the knot tied such that the free ends of the tape both come out in the same direction, which is unlike the way you would tie a tie-off. This is the only way you can tie your knot to make the loop short enough, as described below.



SLING 'EM SHORT!

The single most important thing you can do to sling your hooks is to use a short sling!

The longer your sling, the farther out of reach your next placement is. There is no benefit whatsoever to a long sling on a hook! Typically, when I tie slings on my hooks, I snug up the water knot so that the loop is less than an inch long. This way, when you weight the hook, the sling ends up at its correct length, which is a little over an inch.

What you want is for your lead carabiner to be very close, but not actually touching, the base of the hook. Make sure there is enough slack in the hook to provide the necessary degree of freedom, but without allowing yourself to hang too low.



SLING 'EM THICK!

You should sling your hook with the thickest webbing you can force through the hole. Typically this is 9/16" webbing. One of my hooks made by Russ Walling, either the Fish or the Captain, has too small of a hole, and I had to use 1/2". This kind of sucks as I use this hook regularly for protection on hard aid.

Half-inch webbing is too rinky dink for your hooks! It abrades too easily! Don't use it! If you have half-inch webbing on your hooks, cut it off.



SLING 'EM TIGHT!

When I was climbing Reticent Wall, which is a PDH route on El Cap, I remember having to stop in the middle of a pitch, and while hanging on one hook, use my teeth to tighten the sling on another hook whose knot was coming undone!

Talk about scary! Sheesh.

You must really tighten up those knots! The best thing to do is to grab your aiders, hang your hook off of your doorjamb [you know, the same one on which you used to do your fingertip pullups when you were stupid enough to train for free climbing?] clip in your aider and gently bounce-tighten your hook slings.

Really cinch that knot down! I recommend leaving about a one-inch tail in the ends of the sling.

Next you should take some duct tape, and tightly wrap the tails together to prevent the knot from ever coming undone.

If you do not secure your knots thusly, they will come undone. This is not Big Wall Theory - this is Big Wall Fact.



SLING 'EM FREQUENTLY!

The slings on your hook rub directly on the rock. Consequently, they abrade quickly.

Check them after every wall, and replace as needed.





If you have followed these basic steps, then you have slung your hooks the Better Way.

Take a look - you can see in this photo how short my hook is slung, and you can also see the wrap of grey duct tape which secures the tails on the red sling to keep the knot from untying. It's a decent shot of my Russian aiders and my adjustable daisy.



Conspicuously absent, however, is my my adjustable fifi. Perhaps you are wondering why.

Since you have now tied your slings correctly, you might want to Ask Dr. Piton ... about the Better Way to climb on hooks.

This, in Dr. Piton parlance, is a [HINT].





I am Dr. Piton,

and I am so sick I actually enjoy climbing on hooks

(This post was edited by cliffhanger9 on Mar 26, 2013, 6:06 PM)


passthepitonspete


Dec 19, 2002, 1:38 PM
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OK, time to play Wall Doctor.

[Fer cryin' out loud, you hotties, keep your shirts on! I didn't mean it that way. Sheesh.]

Anyway, let's have a look at some pictures:



Spoken in Fat Bastard voice:

"That huke is frrrrickin' CRRRRRRAP!"



Here are the problems:
Sling should be 9/16", not half-inch

Sling is two-and-a-half times too long!

The tail is MUCH too short - an accident waiting to happen!

The tail should be secured with duct tape so it doesn't untie



Next, let's have a looks at punk's excellent photo:



While the photo is swell, it is for the most part Big Wall Theory at its finest.


I'll start with the correct stuff:

The Talon and the Fish Hook are tied correctly

The knots appear to be good and tight

The tails are nice and long



But here are the problems:
The slings should be tied much shorter - you are losing too much height

The slings should be 9/16" and not half-inch

The double-fisherman's knots get in the way too much, and make it impossible to tie the sling short enough. You do not need these "keeper knots" - since you really have to force the thicker sling through the hole in the hook, you're not likely to lose a hook by having it fall off the sling. Besides, your hooks are always clipped to something, anyway

That hook on the left - Leeper? Pika? - is about the same size as the Fish Hook and hence should be tied with a different-coloured sling to aid in racking for redundancy

In hooks of this size, I'll take the Fish jobbies since they're so bomber as pro - I would not recommend the type of hook you see at left

The tails should be secured with duct tape to prevent untying



I am Dr. Piton,

and I have hung from many a hook in my time


russwalling


Dec 19, 2002, 2:24 PM
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Registered: Jun 12, 2002
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Slings for hooks [In reply to]
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Pete writes:
>>SLING 'EM THICK!
You should sling your hook with the thickest webbing you can force through the hole. Typically this is 9/16" webbing. One of my hooks made by Russ Walling, either the Fish or the Captain, has too small of a hole, and I had to use 1/2". This kind of sucks as I use this hook regularly for protection on hard aid. BETTER WAY is to try harder. Hard to belive you of all people had a tough time cramming something huge into a little hole;) All our hooks are designed to use 9/16" webbing... and to really clarify, 9/16" SUPERTAPE, not just 9/16" webbing as described in this thread. The supertape is miles stronger than the 9/16" regular, which is commonly used as tie-off webbing.
Now... to get the SUPERTAPE through the hole (which has been the same size since day one) on the FISH Hook is to get a 16" piece of supertape webbing, tie an overhand with a nice long set of tails, fold the webbing to where you would clip in, stuff this into the FISH hook hole. Notice it is nowhere near going through, but..... a very small corner of the loop will poke through the hole.... grab this with a GOOD pair of pliers and use some leverage to pull the webbing through the hole. Be careful not to let the pliers slip and damage or fray the webbing. It will take some force, but any aspiring wall fool can get it done in about 25 seconds start to finish. Voila! NOw you are ready to take some giant whippers onto the ultra bomber FISH hook. Don't be shy... let 'er rip!
adios,
Russ


copperhead


Dec 19, 2002, 5:06 PM
Post #31 of 36 (8635 views)
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Registered: Nov 25, 2002
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Slings for hooks [In reply to]
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PTPP wrote:
Quote:Half-inch webbing is too rinky dink for your hooks! It abrades too easily! Don't use it! If you have half-inch webbing on your hooks, cut it off.

A while back, I took a full-length daisy fall (Doh!!) onto a Cliffhanger tied with ˝” webbing and it was bomber. I’m surprised that the hook didn’t bend open and the flake didn’t break. The Petzl version of the Cliffhanger is stronger, due to the ‘v-fold’ bend in the top of the arc of the hook. ˝” webbing works better for Leeper (pointed and flat) hooks and Cliffhangers because it is thinner. Two layers of 9/16” supertape is thicker than the amount of clearance provided by the feet of these hooks, meaning that the webbing is in contact with the rock rather than the feet. This increases abrasion on the webbing. When hooking on the tip of the hook (as opposed to a wrapper flake), the hook will be unstable and rock from side to side with any body movement… sometimes scary. Talons, as well as the larger hooks such as Grappling Hooks, Fish Hooks, and the larger Vermin hooks, have greater clearance and are best slung with 9/16” supertape for strength and durability.

My hooks are threaded as shown by punk’s pic of the Grappling Hook, except for Leeper hooks, which I thread as shown on the Fish Hook. A water-knot is less likely to slip than an overhand knot on a bight. ˝” tie-off webbing will slip through the holes in the hooks so tie an overhand “keeper knot” on a bight, just above the clip-in loop when slinging, like the above mentioned Fish Hook.

I rack hooks on a 5th gear loop tied to the back of my A5 gear sling; the loop is tied between the bottoms of the two shoulder pads/straps, and keeps the hooks separate from the rest of my gear. I usually have two or three biners, each with ˝ to a full set of hooks, depending on the climbing. Color code each hook by size and type, instead of by set. This way you always know what color to look for, depending on which type of hook you need. If you see two of the same color in one set then you know that you have redundancies.

Ditto the rest of what The Dr. ordered.

Don’t drop stuff!

[ This Message was edited by: copperhead on 2002-12-19 22:21 ]


passthepitonspete


Dec 20, 2002, 2:51 PM
Post #32 of 36 (8635 views)
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Registered: Oct 9, 2001
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Slings for hooks [In reply to]
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Good comments on the slings, Bryan. Cheers, mate!

The main thing to remember is to watch for abrasion on your hooks' slings!

Interesting comments re. racking your hooks. Bryan's racking for redundancy is opposite to the way I do it. But what counts is to make sure you NEVER have two of the same thing on a single carabiner.

As for where to rack these tangly little buggers, you can click here to Ask Dr. Piton ... about how to rack your rack. I rack mine on the front subrack of my modified big wall rack.

Cheers,

Pete

[Note: Both of the posts linked in the paragraph above are Dr. Piton SIGNATURE POSTS, and well worth reading if you are not yet familiar with them.]


grippedclimber


Feb 8, 2003, 8:18 AM
Post #33 of 36 (8635 views)
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Slings for hooks [In reply to]
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I like to rack my hooks in a small bag. A chalk bag works well since it stays open and can be cinched shut. I clip the bag to my harness and the hooks to the bag, pig style. This keeps those tangly bastards from being so tangly. Since you don't unclip the bag, just the set of hooks you need, you don't drop the whole mess. (Of course the rest of the hooks are waiting to be tagged). Color coded slings are key cause you can't see which hooks you have without digging in the bag, which is really not that big a deal. I wouldn't use this if I was about to set out on a long hooking pitch, I would put my hooks at the ready on my front subracks. But, this works really well for pitches that start with hooking and then go to something else. This is also a great way to store the hooks on the tag rack.


diesel___smoke


Sep 2, 2003, 12:18 PM
Post #34 of 36 (8635 views)
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Hooks [In reply to]
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I learned something new... *goes to tape the tails of his hooks*
John-Paul


Mee0tch


Sep 24, 2009, 8:48 PM
Post #35 of 36 (1807 views)
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Registered: Jan 7, 2007
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Re: [passthepitonspete] Slings for hooks [In reply to]
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Sorry to bring up an old thread, but can someone post some images of pete's description? Can't seem to find any of the pics mentioned in this thread.


billcoe_


Nov 6, 2009, 10:58 PM
Post #36 of 36 (1672 views)
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Registered: Jun 30, 2002
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Re: [Mee0tch] Slings for hooks [In reply to]
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Mee0tch wrote:
Sorry to bring up an old thread, but can someone post some images of pete's description? Can't seem to find any of the pics mentioned in this thread.




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