Forums: Climbing Information: Injury Treatment and Prevention:
Todd Skinner Killed
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for Injury Treatment and Prevention

Premier Sponsor:

 


Partner ewtotel


Oct 23, 2006, 11:30 PM
Post #1 of 237 (35068 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 30, 2006
Posts: 96

Todd Skinner Killed
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Reports are coming in that Todd Skinner died on Leaning Tower in Yos today... no real details yet.

So sad... so very sad.


http://climbing.com/...ing-magazine-110.jpg


overlord


Oct 24, 2006, 1:00 AM
Post #2 of 237 (35067 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 14120

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

really??? thats bad. anyone has any info?


Partner coldclimb


Oct 24, 2006, 2:10 AM
Post #3 of 237 (35065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 14, 2002
Posts: 6909

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

http://www.supertopo.com/...ic_id=270833&f=0&b=0


Partner climboard


Oct 24, 2006, 7:22 AM
Post #4 of 237 (35065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 10, 2001
Posts: 503

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

He had so much positive energy, it is very sad news. My condolences to his family and friends.


maldaly


Oct 24, 2006, 7:45 AM
Post #5 of 237 (35065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 31, 2002
Posts: 1208

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I'll never forget our first meeting. I was in the valley in the late '70's with my GF for a week of cragging after school got out. On the second or third day an orange VW bus pulled up and a couple of youngsters got out (Allright, we were pretty young, too.) and said howdy. Of course, it was Paul and Todd, and it was their first time to the Valley. We ended up sharing a site in C4 for the week, fixing meals together, drinking bottles of wine and occaisionally even climbing. On the last day we decided to cook breakfast for everyone who shared our site. I had a big can of coffee and one of those 20lb bags of oranges that you could buy for $2 on the way into the Valley. Todd offered up some of his family's 186 year-old sourdough pancake mix and my GF hopped on the shuttle to grab some syrup from the store.

I've had a lot of great climbing adventures in the Valley but this pancake breakfast was the most memorable adventure of all. As people kept drifting into the parking lot on the way to their chosen climb, Todd and Paul kept offering them pancakes. Before we knew it we had 6 Svea stoves sputtering away on the old parking barrier; each one capable of making a single pancake in the lid of a Sigg pot. And, of course, the line of climbers waiting for breakfast grew. Each person in line got a burned pancake, a slice of orange, a full cup of coffee and a big HOWDY from Todd and Paul.

I think we fed the whole damn camp that day because we had to make 3 or 4 resupply trips to the market and were still serving "Pinedale Pancakes" until early afternoon.

I'll never forget that morning because it was the first time I had randomly met some climber, felt that instant shared heritage and bond and formed a lifetime friendship. I didn't know it then but that morning was my welcome into the wonderfuly tight community of climbers that I've come to depend on. Todd and Pauls gracious hospitality towards the line of climbers they had never met, their welcoming of any and all into our campfire circle was a lesson that I've never forgotten.

I miss you Todd. Peace be with you. See you around.

Mal

PS: Can't help but mention that 2 months after our pancake breakfast, my GF ran off with Todd. I was pissed at the time but in retrospect, it was probably the best thing that had happened to me;-). Once again, thanks, Todd.


Partner wideguy


Oct 24, 2006, 7:46 AM
Post #6 of 237 (35065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 9, 2003
Posts: 15033

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Condolences to his family.


Partner macherry


Oct 24, 2006, 7:53 AM
Post #7 of 237 (35065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 10, 2003
Posts: 15809

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

very sad news

my sincerest condolences to friends and family


killclimbz


Oct 24, 2006, 7:58 AM
Post #8 of 237 (35065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 6, 2000
Posts: 1964

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Man this sucks. Too many legends are leaving us.

RIP


Partner camhead


Oct 24, 2006, 8:05 AM
Post #9 of 237 (35065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 9, 2001
Posts: 20796

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

wow, tragic.

I never met him. I know that some of his ethics were controversial, but from everything I have heard, he lived with passion and positivity for climbing and life.

My condolences to his family and friends.


reno


Oct 24, 2006, 8:19 AM
Post #10 of 237 (35065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 18283

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Today, we mourn the passing of a legend.

"They shall not grow old, as we who are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning,
We shall remember them."

RIP, Todd.


kachoong


Oct 24, 2006, 8:40 AM
Post #11 of 237 (35065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 15304

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

....another very sad day for the climbing world.... :cry:


Partner cindylou


Oct 24, 2006, 9:19 AM
Post #12 of 237 (35065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 17, 2005
Posts: 789

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

What a great story, Mal. Very touching.

Sincere condolences to family and friends.


markc


Oct 24, 2006, 9:27 AM
Post #13 of 237 (35065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 2479

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
What a great story, Mal. Very touching.

Sincere condolences to family and friends.

Seconded. Many thanks for sharing such a wonderful story. My deepest sympathies to friends and family.


charley


Oct 24, 2006, 9:38 AM
Post #14 of 237 (35065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 13, 2002
Posts: 6627

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Sincere condolences to family and friends.
A great loss.


charley


Oct 24, 2006, 9:38 AM
Post #15 of 237 (35065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 13, 2002
Posts: 6627

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Sincere condolences to family and friends.
A great loss.


Partner gandolf


Oct 24, 2006, 9:44 AM
Post #16 of 237 (35065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 3, 2005
Posts: 119

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

This is very sad news, indeed. He was definitely a pioneer and helped shape the future of rock climbing. My sincere condolences to his family.


anykineclimb


Oct 24, 2006, 9:49 AM
Post #17 of 237 (35065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 3593

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

(silent post)


the_climber


Oct 24, 2006, 10:00 AM
Post #18 of 237 (35065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 8, 2003
Posts: 6142

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Very sad news indeed :cry: :cry: :cry:

I remember reading about Todd in the mags when I first started climbing, and sifting trough all the videos in the library to find his climbing videos. He truly broke new ground. I never had the opportunity to meat him, but have spoken to some who have... I remember all of them talking about his kind encouraging nature.

My thoughts go out to his family.

May his afterlife be full of unclimbed granite peaks and undiscovered mountain ranges.

Rest in peace among the peaks Todd.

:(


joshklingbeil


Oct 24, 2006, 10:17 AM
Post #19 of 237 (35065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 6, 2002
Posts: 403

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

This is very shocking news. Condolences go out to friends and family. I was out at Devils Tower the other day looking at Syncronicity. A climb put up by Todd & John (Gambler) Rosholt. Now their both missing from this dimension. Perhaps they are climbing together on the big rock in the sky. Todd had a large impact on this 3rd rock from the sun. Many hard lines went down by his hands from Yosemite to Africa to Pakistan. A sad day indeed. I'm still in disbelief......


paganmonkeyboy


Oct 24, 2006, 10:29 AM
Post #20 of 237 (35065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 29, 2003
Posts: 663

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

:(


petsfed


Oct 24, 2006, 11:15 AM
Post #21 of 237 (35065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 24, 2002
Posts: 8595

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Everyone who ever spoke of him described him like a high strung golden retriever, always eager to jump on the next thing. His energy and exuberance for the sport will be missed.


chossmonkey


Oct 24, 2006, 11:24 AM
Post #22 of 237 (35065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 1, 2003
Posts: 28414

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

When I first started climbing Todd was quite an inspiration. I can't say I really new him, but I have met him and somehow that creates a personal link for me.

Having gone through my wife's near death experience earlier this year I have a pretty good idea, but still can't even BEGIN to fathom what his wife and kids are going through right now.

It just makes me get a sinking, sick feeling in my stomach to think about their loss.

My heart goes out to Amy, his kids, his Father, and the rest of his family.


jajen


Oct 24, 2006, 11:34 AM
Post #23 of 237 (35065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 5, 2006
Posts: 81

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Thank you for a great story, Mal. Very touching. This sport needs more people with that kind of attitude and energy.

Sincere condolences to family and friends.


cologman


Oct 24, 2006, 11:35 AM
Post #24 of 237 (35065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 28, 2002
Posts: 581

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

RIP Todd, condolences to his family and loved ones.


timstich


Oct 24, 2006, 11:44 AM
Post #25 of 237 (35065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 2, 2003
Posts: 6263

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Hey Malcom, that was a great story about the pancakes. A good memory to share.


dlintz


Oct 24, 2006, 11:45 AM
Post #26 of 237 (30064 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 9, 2002
Posts: 1981

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Thanks for posting Mal. The stories of Todd's energy and love of climbing inspired me from the beginning. His personality while controversial to many is just another facet in climbing's great history.

Rest my brother.

d.


sick_climba


Oct 24, 2006, 1:48 PM
Post #27 of 237 (30064 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 31, 2005
Posts: 508

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Very sad to hear.... words can not explain what I know those who knew him must be going through. For those who believe in God or Goddess he has most defiantly gone to a better place, and is with you at every moment, as the wind, and the earth, and the very rock you climb on. For those who don't he has returned to mother earth the birth giver of us all for his time in peace away from trouble. Best wishes out to friends and family, its hard to lose family, but did you really lose him? Did every smile, word, or tear he shed not leave an impression upon you that will stay until the end of you days?
* takes a moment of silence*


the_climber


Oct 24, 2006, 2:15 PM
Post #28 of 237 (30064 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 8, 2003
Posts: 6142

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I was able to take some time out of work and found some more information on this:

http://www.rockandice.com/...ail&newsId=101&pno=0

http://www.fresnobee.com/406/story/9279.html

It appears that the accident occured while decending. My heart felt thought to his family and Jim Hewitt (his partner). It's a long decent alone, I hope he's doing as best as he can right now.



Thought I would post these also so people know:
In reply to:
Hello Everyone,

Things are surreal in Lander today. We have planned a memorial gathering for Todd on Saturday, the 28th of October. The time is 3pm or thereabouts, potluck, etc. It will be held at the Sinks Canyon Center outside of Lander. email me at sbechtel@wyoming.com or give a call at 307-349-1246 if you need any info.

Thanks so much. Amy wants to make sure it's known that all climbers are welcome...just as it always was.

Keep the messages coming...every one of them is helping his family.


Steve Bechtel

In reply to:
One more thing...
For those of you who are interested a memorial has been established for Amy, Hannah, Jake and Sarah.

Skinner Memorial Fund
Atlantic City Federal Credit Union
704 West Main Street
Lander, WY 82520

Thanks,
Steve Bechtel


gerglenroc


Oct 24, 2006, 2:54 PM
Post #29 of 237 (30064 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 7, 2002
Posts: 82

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

When I finally was able to log onto the site, this was a horrible introduction for the week, terrible loss of a cheery guy.
I was in Todd's presence on a few occasions that always made an impact on me because he never had a chip on his shoulder.
I first met him in Railey Thailand in 1993 while he was filming his climbing video international. Hung out with him on the beaches many times over a month and he and I set up a bouldering traverse along part of the wall to the right of Dom's Cave and that group of 5.10s where that small spring of clean tasty water came outta the sand to quench our throats.
I had damaged my leg very bad one day there that needed hospitalization and one day my bandage was in desperate need of a change so he held his crew of filmers/climbers back from boating out around the peninsula to take me to his hut along 'mud beach' to re-wrap my leg in fresh, clean bandage, then, he went and went climbing.
If he wasn't climbing he always had the interest to give positive feedback and help or just a spot. He gave me his address in Wyoming before I left but never went down. But I did get to see him one more time....
I have a pic of him in the Thailand section of him working a route near Princess Cave. The other photo is in the El Cap section of this site and is in connection with the rest of my story....




After I left there, the next time I ran into Todd was with two of my friends on our way to the base of El Cap in November of 2001. Barely into the forest I heard voices. As they got louder and more full of life it sounded really familiar. Before he and Paul Piana turned into our path I knew it was Todd!
They were scouting some filming locations and seemed excited about the super hot autumn day. We talked for ten minutes, shook some hands and then Paul took our pic. They gave us their address of some property they said we could camp on outside of the park. One day we tried to call but I only left a message.
Glad to have met you Todd, never forget it!


Partner bri1682


Oct 24, 2006, 3:25 PM
Post #30 of 237 (30064 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 15, 2006
Posts: 107

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

That is a sad and shocking story.

My condolences to his family and friends.


bluering


Oct 24, 2006, 3:27 PM
Post #31 of 237 (30064 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 23, 2004
Posts: 98

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Rest in peace bro, God bless.


vegastradguy


Oct 24, 2006, 3:34 PM
Post #32 of 237 (30064 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Rest In Peace, Todd. My thoughts and prayers go to the family at this difficult time.


xcskier


Oct 24, 2006, 3:55 PM
Post #33 of 237 (30064 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 23, 2005
Posts: 3

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Though I didn't know Todd well or even really as a climber I have gone to church with his kids and wife and in-laws for many years and this was very sad news to hear. The town of Lander has suffered many losses in the last two years and this is another that is tough to take.


wyclimber


Oct 24, 2006, 4:15 PM
Post #34 of 237 (30064 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 21, 1999
Posts: 78

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Sadness.
Living in Wyoming for the last 15 years and being a climber for 14 of those years, it would be hard to have not run into Todd. His slideshows were amazing, his climbs difficult and his stories wildly entertaining. His effect on climbing around the globe was as pervasive as in his home state, he really climbed everywhere. His energy and good nature were truly inspiring, if you never met him, you missed something amazing. My children are about the same age as his, and I am truly saddened by the loss of their father. My heart goes out to his wife and family.
Rest in Peace

Mike Snyder


wyclimber


Oct 24, 2006, 4:18 PM
Post #35 of 237 (30064 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 21, 1999
Posts: 78

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Sadness.
Living in Wyoming for the last 15 years and being a climber for 14 of those years, it would be hard to have not run into Todd. His slideshows were amazing, his climbs difficult and his stories wildly entertaining. His effect on climbing around the globe was as pervasive as in his home state, he really climbed everywhere. His energy and good nature were truly inspiring, if you never met him, you missed something amazing. My children are about the same age as his, and I am truly saddened by the loss of their father. My heart goes out to his wife and family.
Rest in Peace

Mike Snyder


msiddens


Oct 24, 2006, 4:23 PM
Post #36 of 237 (30064 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 13, 2003
Posts: 130

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

it's with great saddnes that I read the news. Thoughts going out to his family, friends, and fellow climbers. In many ways it's people such as Todd that are the reason I sought out the sport and remain faithful to it.


cosmiccragsman


Oct 24, 2006, 4:28 PM
Post #37 of 237 (30064 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 7, 2005
Posts: 778

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I've only climbed with Todd a couple of times in the 80s,
but I've sharred many campfires at Yosemite, and JT with
him. He always had a positive attitude, and a smile on his face.
He had a treasure trove of stories about his adventures,
that I never got tired of listening to.
My heartfelt sympathies, and prayers, to his Wife and Family.
Todd will be sorely missed by all the climbing community

Rest in Peace, and God Bless, Todd

Cosmiccragsman


majid_sabet


Oct 24, 2006, 6:09 PM
Post #38 of 237 (30064 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 8368

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

My deepest condolences to his family and friends, rest in peace Todd.


Partner rrrADAM


Oct 24, 2006, 6:48 PM
Post #39 of 237 (30064 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 19, 1999
Posts: 17543

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Sad news... I remember seeing that he had written soem wise words in the cover ascent register on top od Devil's Tower.

Prolific climber.


artsylady567


Oct 24, 2006, 7:14 PM
Post #40 of 237 (30064 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 19, 2004
Posts: 99

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Legends live on in spirit. My deepest sympathies go out.


up_for_a_good_time


Oct 24, 2006, 7:34 PM
Post #41 of 237 (30065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 1, 2005
Posts: 111

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

CNN Reports:

Rock climbing legend falls to his death
POSTED: 8:31 p.m. EDT, October 24, 2006

YOSEMITE NATIONAL PARK, California (AP) -- A renowned rock climber was killed when he fell 500 feet while attempting a first ascent, a park spokeswoman said Tuesday.

Todd Skinner had completed a new route up a rock face known as Leaning Tower and was rappelling when he fell to his death Monday, Adrienne Freeman said.

It was not immediately clear why Skinner, an author who claimed to have set climbing records in 26 countries, fell.

He and his party were climbing near Bridalveil Fall, one of the park's best-known waterfalls, Freeman said.

The Mariposa County coroner's office was investigating the death.

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.


acw


Oct 24, 2006, 9:31 PM
Post #42 of 237 (30065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 27, 2004
Posts: 9

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I've known Todd for almost 25 years from the earliest days of the sport climbing movement. We climbed together dozens of times - in Yosemite, Joshua Tree, Smith Rock, and throughout Europe. He was a true pioneer, doing things his own way and refusing to follow the herd. He was a remarkable climber, and a charismatic personality. I have so many memories of the times we spent together. Tonight, I will crack open a beer and drink a toast to Todd. You will be missed, my friend.

Alan Watts


iamcolinslack


Oct 24, 2006, 9:44 PM
Post #43 of 237 (30065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 8, 2005
Posts: 113

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Thats really sad to hear. What a true adventurer he was. This bowl is for you Todd.


Partner blonde_loves_bolts


Oct 24, 2006, 10:04 PM
Post #44 of 237 (30065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 7, 2005
Posts: 2287

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Very, very sad news...

Rest in peace.


mushroomcloud_2


Oct 24, 2006, 10:25 PM
Post #45 of 237 (30065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 22, 2005
Posts: 276

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

my sincerest condolences and uber big hugs to friends and family


kricir


Oct 24, 2006, 10:35 PM
Post #46 of 237 (30065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 15, 2005
Posts: 434

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

A sad day for friends, family, and climbers worldwide

Let this be a reminder that no one is immune to the dangers of climbing, and for everyone to stay safe.


hopkinsed


Oct 24, 2006, 10:51 PM
Post #47 of 237 (30065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 24, 2006
Posts: 18

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Really sad.


timstich


Oct 25, 2006, 6:04 AM
Post #48 of 237 (17855 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 2, 2003
Posts: 6263

*Merged topic* What went wrong? Skinner accident thread [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

From the LA Times:

"Park officials still are investigating the cause. However, a family spokesman, Steve Bechtel, said authorities had told him that their preliminary finding was that Skinner's climbing harness broke."


markc


Oct 25, 2006, 6:18 AM
Post #49 of 237 (17855 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 2479

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
I just had an arguement with a climbing partner about tying off the ends of your rope when rapelling I said you *always* should and she disagreed ... I hear he was descending, I hope he didn't space on the rappell that would really be a downer.

Tim added some new details I was unaware of. All reports I've seen indicated Todd's device and locking biner were still attached to the rope.


kyote321


Oct 25, 2006, 8:47 AM
Post #50 of 237 (30065 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 24, 2005
Posts: 636

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Todd was a true legend and pioneer. I have many fond memories of climbing with him and the posse in Lander in the mid-90s. His enthusiasm and unbridaled energy are unmatched. It isn't how he died that is important, it is how he lived. He lived big. Thoughts and prayers to Amy, his kids, and the small community of Lander that has had so much drama.


deltav


Oct 25, 2006, 9:37 AM
Post #51 of 237 (30020 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 29, 2005
Posts: 597

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Very sad indeed, my condolences to his family. Unfortunately, I witnessed most of the recovery on Monday afternoon.


hopkinsed


Oct 25, 2006, 10:38 AM
Post #52 of 237 (17810 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 24, 2006
Posts: 18

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Yea they said they could still see his belay device and the biner on the fixed rope. That REALLY sucks, a failed harness? Never hear of that these days, I wonder if it was an old model? Nylon loop? Not threaded through the actual waistbelt? I'm an engineer so I hate to hear failure scenarios.


In reply to:
In reply to:
I just had an arguement with a climbing partner about tying off the ends of your rope when rapelling I said you *always* should and she disagreed ... I hear he was descending, I hope he didn't space on the rappell that would really be a downer.

Tim added some new details I was unaware of. All reports I've seen indicated Todd's device and locking biner were still attached to the rope.


jcrew


Oct 25, 2006, 10:57 AM
Post #53 of 237 (30020 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 11, 2006
Posts: 673

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

when i was in high school, i got a cheap ticket to a slideshow called "salathe wall" or something bya guy i never heard of, Paul somebody.

it was, of course, Paul Pianna's presentation of he and Todd's free effort on El Cap. I came into the show a civilian, and left a climber.

God Bless his soul.

http://www.toddskinner.com/...ry/images/NWT_25.jpg


rocknroll


Oct 25, 2006, 11:08 AM
Post #54 of 237 (30020 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 25, 2003
Posts: 111

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I have spent a lot of time with Todd and probably have more video footage of the man than anyone else in the world. Throughout the late eighties and early nineties Todd appeared in many of my films. Moving Over Stone !, Climb, Moving Over Stone 2, Know Limits and Climb International. Todd had a great way of telling a story and that was the element that he brought to those video efforts. For instance (and I know this from memory). "So we hole ourselves up in the wind river mountains of Wyoming and do climbs that are the hardest in the world. And when the going gets tough, we put our hats a little lower, and put our collars up and tough it out. It always isn't going to be easy, but who said climbing was easy."

I remember the hospitality of Amy and Paul and Heidi and how they made it absolutely clear that their house was a no slander zone. Which didn't stop the slander, but made us acutely aware that we ourselves could be the ones that slander is being directed at. For Todd was a controversial figure; all self-promoters are. Although Todd like to say he was one of the best climber's in the world, he wasn't. Even though the magic of television editing makes it look like Todd is doing a red point of those 5.13 routes I filmed him on, he's not. He was a ruthless hang dogger whose on-sight ability in Thailand was about 12 minus (But do realize that is after a month in China where dysentery and low grade sickness is de riguer). I seriously doubted the Salathe Free claim. But then Todd wasn't opposed to setting up a hanging belay anchor right in the middle of a crux move. He's a promoter, the rain man, whatever it takes to get it done. They won't remember each individual move, they'll remember that I completed it.There were far better climbers at the time like Wolfgang Gulich. Todd knew it, he'd even admitted it, but he wouldn't promote it.

Even though he wore zebra-striped Lycra tights with his cowboy hat, he was a true cowboy. We wrote a scene together where a cowboy is riding the range and sees a skirmish in the brush. It doesn't look good. So he dismounts from his horse, draws his Winchester from his saddle and stalks into the woods. BLAM! BLAM! BLAM! A "No Rock Climbing "sign is his victim. This was about the time the Forest Service put their ban on bolts and artificial holds started appearing on climbs at Smith Rock, so Todd's scene ended up on the cutting room floor.

We had our rough spots. I went to Hueco Tanks to film my old college friend John Sherman and Todd and Paul. Vermin felt that Todd was jeopardizing access with some of his shenanigans that he was using to get around Hueco's ban on bolts. John refused to be in the film if Todd was in it. I was hurt, but I understood John's principle. Todd had a way of (and I quote him again) "pushing it just a little further each time where you are riding that fine line between being in control...or death" That quote was in reference to his free-solo of Flake Roof in Hueco. Which caused another controversy. Todd said he couldn't use a critical hold because it was loose. making the climb 5.12 instead of the rating in the guidebook of 11.+. Unfortunately, as the filmmaker, I had to take the shit for that one.

Then there was the time we almost came to blows in China. He had used all my gear on his sport climbing projects on Moonhill. But I wanted to shoot a first ascent of the many spires in the region. Todd thought that it had no place in the film, this was about his sport climbing achievements, not 'mountaineering' up some crumbing cobra infested spire... On the day of the shoot, he masterminded a schedule that left me without gear and a climber to shoot. I stormed up to Moonhill and called Todd out on his sabotage. He had no choice but to pull my ropes off his rehearsal routes. I found an American student in Yangshoo with a minor amount of climbing experience and we set off. But Todd's delays had worked to our disadvantage and we never summitted the formation. That night I accused Todd of deliberate sabotage. His honor was being called into question and he puffed out his chest. "Where I come from, when men have differences they cannot resolve by negotiation, they resolve it by force." I sat in my chair, "Go ahead Todd, hit me." I said calmly. Todd didn't move. I jumped up, tipping over my chair and yelled at him, "C'mon Todd, hit me!" The rabble of hundreds of Chinese voices suddenly stopped as all eyes were now on us. "time to go to Thailand." replied Todd.

I still use his quotes today, "These are the biggest holds you'll ever fall off." or ' Strength will always get you though instead of finesse and grace." his drive and inspiration far exceeded his climbing ability, and that is what made him a great climber. From the Great Canadian Knife to freeing the Salathe and Half-dome, he got at it, and got it done. There are few with the drive and determination to climb as he did and to be sure everyone knew about it.

Todd you died with your boots on. Just as the wind will suddenly stop over the Wyoming prairie, we will feel a sudden stillness in our hearts with your passing.

I'm sure they got some big walls up there heaven. And I bet you could get Galen to photograph it too. It'll be in the next issue of Heaven and Ice.

Mike Strassman


adnix


Oct 25, 2006, 2:36 PM
Post #55 of 237 (17810 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 19, 2003
Posts: 584

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Yea they said they could still see his belay device and the biner on the fixed rope. That REALLY sucks, a failed harness? Never hear of that these days, I wonder if it was an old model? Nylon loop? Not threaded through the actual waistbelt? I'm an engineer so I hate to hear failure scenarios.
Or it could be unclipping of a biner, a pilot error, which is quite common. I guess we'll have to wait for a better report.


bobd1953


Oct 25, 2006, 4:15 PM
Post #56 of 237 (30020 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 13, 2002
Posts: 3941

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Todd...was by far one of the friendly climbers I have ever been around. His big smile is forever in my mind-eye.


reno


Oct 25, 2006, 4:29 PM
Post #57 of 237 (17810 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 18283

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Yea they said they could still see his belay device and the biner on the fixed rope. That REALLY sucks, a failed harness? Never hear of that these days, I wonder if it was an old model? Nylon loop? Not threaded through the actual waistbelt? I'm an engineer so I hate to hear failure scenarios.
Or it could be unclipping of a biner, a pilot error, which is quite common. I guess we'll have to wait for a better report.

Folks, I'd like to echo adnix's last statement: Let's wait for a full report before we start speculating on the cause of this tragedy. I understand it's in our nature to analyze everything, but for the moment, we might want to just be mournful of the loss of one of us.


therat


Oct 25, 2006, 5:54 PM
Post #58 of 237 (30020 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 4, 2005
Posts: 64

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

As evidenced by all the posts here... Todd was an inspiration to all. Not surprising. Todd Skinner was a great man.

I remember one night after one of his slide shows, I was fortunate enough to spend time with Todd at a mutual friend's home. He was interested in a unique, lightweight cook stove our friend had designed. Todd ultimately used this design on his often covered ascent of Nameless Tower.

I was fascinated with virtually every word he spoke. This guy was my HERO. But after a while... you could tell... he didn't perceive himself to be any better than anyone else. And it was obvious from the start that he was a man with great character. Kinda like... Superman.

The one thing that I will always remember... how humble he was.

I, too, will crack a cold one for Todd.

And to Amy and all his family... my most heartfealt sympathy.

John Gunnels
Gillette, WY


pyrosis


Oct 25, 2006, 6:40 PM
Post #59 of 237 (30020 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 1, 2004
Posts: 150

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Sadly ironic that Rock and Ice writes

In reply to:
...helped put Hueco Tanks on the map, with his numerous hard free ascents including When Legends Die (5.13b), at the time one of America's hardest sport routes.

Although I've never met the man, he's been an inspiration to me since I first saw his pictures in the "How to Rock Climb" book my parents got me for christmas when I was fourteen. His contributions to the sport of climbing and to the lives of those that he has inspired have been enormous, and his passing is a sad moment indeed. My deepest condolences go out to his family and friends.

Tavis


rokklym


Oct 25, 2006, 8:18 PM
Post #60 of 237 (30020 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 1, 2001
Posts: 185

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I only got to meet Todd and Amy once, but they sure seemed like some nice people. When we summited Devils Tower, we read what was left of what he wrote in the summit register and I remember it was quite moving. His slideshow of his trip to the Himilaya was awesome and I remember his enthusiasm for the sport.
I got on the net last night and read the headlines. I was in total shock!

My heart goes out to Todds family and friends. Climb on bro.


d_wyoming


Oct 25, 2006, 9:37 PM
Post #61 of 237 (30020 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 25, 2006
Posts: 2

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I was fortunate enough to meet Todd just prior to making my first climb at Devils Tower. He was gracious enough to spend a little time with a novice that morning. I had taken some climbing training in order to face my fear of heights. I'll never forget how the confidence he exuded gave me a little extra courage.

All of Wyoming mourns a native son. May the joy he took out of this life comfort his family in the long days to come.


d_wyoming


Oct 25, 2006, 9:39 PM
Post #62 of 237 (17810 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 25, 2006
Posts: 2

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

addendum...local news story

http://www.casperstartribune.net/articles/2006/10/25/news/wyoming/b96dc6d2fae74a5a87257212000327ef.txt


wallwombat


Oct 25, 2006, 10:14 PM
Post #63 of 237 (30020 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 16, 2003
Posts: 727

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

This is very sad news indeed. He was an inspirational climber. :(


fuzzbait


Oct 25, 2006, 11:24 PM
Post #64 of 237 (30020 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 27, 2005
Posts: 81

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Then there was the time we almost came to blows in China. He had used all my gear on his sport climbing projects on Moonhill. But I wanted to shoot a first ascent of the many spires in the region. Todd thought that it had no place in the film, this was about his sport climbing achievements, not 'mountaineering' up some crumbing cobra infested spire... On the day of the shoot, he masterminded a schedule that left me without gear and a climber to shoot. I stormed up to Moonhill and called Todd out on his sabotage. He had no choice but to pull my ropes off his rehearsal routes. I found an American student in Yangshuo with a minor amount of climbing experience and we set off. But Todd's delays had worked to our disadvantage and we never summitted the formation. That night I accused Todd of deliberate sabotage. His honor was being called into question and he puffed out his chest. "Where I come from, when men have differences they cannot resolve by negotiation, they resolve it by force." I sat in my chair, "Go ahead Todd, hit me." I said calmly. Todd didn't move. I jumped up, tipping over my chair and yelled at him, "C'mon Todd, hit me!" The rabble of hundreds of Chinese voices suddenly stopped as all eyes were now on us. "time to go to Thailand." replied Todd.

Mike Strassman

This is a great story!
If it wasn't for Todd Yangshuo wouldn't have developed into the climbing hot spot it has today and I wouldn't have a home here which allows me to climb full time. (Even met my girlfriend and conceived a daughter here cause of climbing :shock: )

I can totally envision the 2 of you sitting at one of the cafes drinking Tsingdao and the hundreds of Chinese looking on taking pictures of the crazy laoweis.

The climbs on Moonhill are classic and the plaque in place at the base will always remember the pioneer who started the sport climbing scene in Yangshuo.

Joe


jcrew


Oct 25, 2006, 11:41 PM
Post #65 of 237 (30020 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 11, 2006
Posts: 673

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
I still use his quotes today,

same with my partner and i. whatever the route, after we're done we always say " that has got my vote for the best 5.12 in America, quite poossibily the world"


jimthespider


Oct 26, 2006, 6:23 AM
Post #66 of 237 (17810 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 23, 2003
Posts: 53

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

So it was the loop on his harness that broke.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/10/26/CLIMBER.TMP

I always wondered why everyone always said to clip into this when belaying and descending. I have been stopped climbing at the gym by guys who work there and told not to clip into both loops but to clip into the single loop in the front. Why would you ever depend on a single point of failure? I heard people say that that is what the loop is for and clipping or tying into the loop on the waistband and the loop between your legs was bad juju. I feel vindicated now for not listening to all these "experts".

I saw Piana give his slideshow and always looked up to Todd. I have video of him doing one finger pullups! I feel like I have been punched in the stomach. He will be missed.


saxfiend


Oct 26, 2006, 7:00 AM
Post #67 of 237 (17810 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 30, 2004
Posts: 1208

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

This is a very sad loss of a great climber.

In reply to:
I always wondered why everyone always said to clip into this when belaying and descending. I have been stopped climbing at the gym by guys who work there and told not to clip into both loops but to clip into the single loop in the front. Why would you ever depend on a single point of failure? I heard people say that that is what the loop is for and clipping or tying into the loop on the waistband and the loop between your legs was bad juju. I feel vindicated now for not listening to all these "experts".
You've missed the lesson here. This tragedy occurred not because clipping into the belay loop is inherently dangerous, but because Skinner was using a piece of equipment that should have been retired. As many others have pointed out in other threads, a climbing rope is also a "single point of failure." So the real lesson to be learned is to be aware of the condition of your gear and stop using it if it's worn or damaged.

JL


anykineclimb


Oct 26, 2006, 9:24 AM
Post #68 of 237 (17810 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 3593

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
I heard people say that that is what the loop is for and clipping or tying into the loop on the waistband and the loop between your legs was bad juju. I feel vindicated now for not listening to all these "experts".

Uh, you're SUPPOSED to tie into both loops!! as for one point of failure, saxfiend is right, we do it all the time on single ropes.

INSPECT YOUR GEAR PEOPLE!!! retire it when it needs to be


overlord


Oct 26, 2006, 9:31 AM
Post #69 of 237 (17810 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 14120

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I heard people say that that is what the loop is for and clipping or tying into the loop on the waistband and the loop between your legs was bad juju. I feel vindicated now for not listening to all these "experts".

Uh, you're SUPPOSED to tie into both loops!! as for one point of failure, saxfiend is right, we do it all the time on single ropes.

INSPECT YOUR GEAR PEOPLE!!! retire it when it needs to be

tie-in points (waist harness and leg loop loop thingys) are for tiing in.

belay loops are for belaying and rappeling. if you use tie-in points, you cuold cross load something. plus, its not very comfy.

an intact belay loop is strong enough not to need redundance. just like a single rope. but if its damaged...


granite_grrl


Oct 26, 2006, 9:45 AM
Post #70 of 237 (30020 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: 14903

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I've been thinking about this tragedy for the past few days, and still not sure what to say. It boggles my mind that someone had to die while out doing normal climbing activities. This loss is heatbreaking.

Rest in Peace, Todd.


jonescd


Oct 26, 2006, 10:12 AM
Post #71 of 237 (17810 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 28, 2006
Posts: 30

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

As a family climber with three generations, my heart goes out to the Skinner family and they should know that Todd was doing nothing less safe than all of the other fathers out there who climb/rappel today.

anykineclimb,

Your argument of rappelling off of the belay loop is valid as the industry standard most recognized today. For that reason I had to teach rappelling for 8 years at a college in a way that I have disagreed with. I have always since the beginning of my climbing been suspect of this standard and have rappelled using a locker through my tie-in points for 20 yrs of climbing for fear of an accident such as Todd's. You do have to me more careful about cross-loading when taking the first step off. Pear biners with the narrow end toward the harness are much less likely to crossload -- if you watch them before weighting the rope - if you are really concerned about crossloading you can use a steel locker that is still strong when crossloaded - although the extra weight in this situation would not have been practical. I wish this industry standard would change as when I was old schooled the standard was to never trust one piece of equipment in any given situation when a choice is presented (I used to even use double lockers with opposing gates for rappelling). A belay loop is a single piece of equipment and I have often seen the stitching come loose on my belay loop after abrasions from chimney climbing and from general wear from the rope (even on a newer harness - especially Petzl harnesses rather than my older Misty Mtn harnesses which used to have bullet threading ). I think we should all rethink this industry standard as a token to Todd and his family - maybe separate double belay loops could be considered. I climbed a couple of times with Paul Piana in Knoxville in my beginning years of climbing and was greatly inspired by their free climb of El Cap and slide show. If Todd was anything as safe as Paul which I imagine he was, I would bet he was one of the most safety conscious climbers in existence and my first thought upon hearing this story was that there was loop failure and no oversight. I somehow feel that someone as safety experienced as Todd Skinner would want us all to learn from this accident rather than think of it as his fate or just the risk that we run in climbing.


Partner brent_e


Oct 26, 2006, 11:04 AM
Post #72 of 237 (30020 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 15, 2004
Posts: 5111

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

my thoughts go out to his family and friends.

it's sad to lose any member of the community.



Brent


knudenoggin


Oct 26, 2006, 11:20 AM
Post #73 of 237 (17810 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 6, 2004
Posts: 594

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
belay loops are for belaying and rappeling. ...
an intact belay loop is strong enough not to need redundance.
just like a single rope. but if its damaged...

But, my, quite some damage!!? With that broken rope in the fall test in the gym,
at least the material was loaded rather severely--at the point of the 'biner,
and with a fall--and weakened by acid damage; but here we have material parting
at roughly body weight!
Here's an article excerpt:
In reply to:
"It's really affecting the climbing community because harness failure is pretty unusual -- it is not supposed to happen," said Ken Yager, president and founder of Yosemite Climbing Association. "It's gotten people thinking about their old harnesses now. I know I'm going to go out and buy a new one."

The part that broke, called the belay loop, is designed to be the strongest part of the climbing harness, but Hewett, 34, said Skinner's harness was old.

"It was actually very worn," Hewett said. "I'd noted it a few days before, and he was aware it was something to be concerned about." Friends of Skinner said he had ordered several new harnesses but they hadn't yet arrived in the mail.

On Monday's climb, Hewitt said the belay loop snapped while Skinner was hanging in midair underneath an overhanging ledge.

"I knew exactly what had happened right when it happened," he said. "It was just disbelief. It was too surreal." Stunned and in shock after watching his friend fall, he checked his equipment. "I wanted to make sure that what had caused the accident wasn't going to happen to me," he said. "I then went down as quick as I could."

Hewett said he knew there was no hope. A search-and-rescue team found Skinner's body, wearing the harness with the broken belay loop, about 4 p.m. Monday on the rocks near Bridalveil Falls.

I hope that some close analysis of this broken loop is made: was perhaps heat
from the metal or rope abrasion the cause (perhaps even from a prior use),
or any chemical damage? Recall that even old climbing ropes are claimed by the
UIAA to withstand at least one severe (UIAA test) fall. And ratty old rap slings culled
and tested by various folks (Moyer, SterlingJim) at their worst have not been
so bad as this belay loop seems to have been. It just seems a bit beyond the
pale for there to have been *normal* wear&tear damage to such a degree
of weakening that would pass any muster for use.

Very sad news, indeed--tragic.

*knudeNoggin*


tradmanclimbs


Oct 26, 2006, 12:35 PM
Post #74 of 237 (17810 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

You guys seem to be forgetting that the belay loop catches all the leader falls. that harnes may have caught hundreds of leader falls.It also could have been severly abraded and being old exposed to lots of sunlight?


andrewd


Oct 26, 2006, 1:31 PM
Post #75 of 237 (30020 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 3, 2006
Posts: 168

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

:( this is very sad and scary at the same time.


jimdavis


Oct 26, 2006, 2:02 PM
Post #76 of 237 (17852 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1935

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I heard people say that that is what the loop is for and clipping or tying into the loop on the waistband and the loop between your legs was bad juju. I feel vindicated now for not listening to all these "experts".

Uh, you're SUPPOSED to tie into both loops!! as for one point of failure, saxfiend is right, we do it all the time on single ropes.

INSPECT YOUR GEAR PEOPLE!!! retire it when it needs to be

tie-in points (waist harness and leg loop loop thingys) are for tiing in.

belay loops are for belaying and rappeling. if you use tie-in points, you cuold cross load something. plus, its not very comfy.

an intact belay loop is strong enough not to need redundance. just like a single rope. but if its damaged...

Just about every belay loop on the market is redundant. Look at where the stiching is...it's 3 layers thick....this creates two seperate(stacked and stitched together) belay loop layers. You could cut through either the top or bottom layer, or any one of the bartacks...and still have a safe functional harness.

We treat this as 1 piece of equipment....but there are in fact two independant layers of webbing. The only harness I'm aware of that doesn't have this is the new WC (i think, saw it in an MGear catalog...) competition harness that has that skinny dyneema belay loop...which makes me pucker right up.

Apparently the harness is question was being pushed too hard for too long. This isn't a case of single point equipment failure...it's a case of neglected gear that should have been retired long ago.

Anyone who still teaches you to clip into your tie-in points is unaware of the actual contruction of a belay loop, and doesn't understand how carabiners really break.

Cheers,
Jim


anykineclimb


Oct 26, 2006, 2:09 PM
Post #77 of 237 (17852 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 3593

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
You guys seem to be forgetting that the belay loop catches all the leader falls. that harnes may have caught hundreds of leader falls.It also could have been severly abraded and being old exposed to lots of sunlight?

If you're tied in properly (to waist AND leg loop) how does the belay loop cathc all the leaders falls??


veganboyjosh


Oct 26, 2006, 2:23 PM
Post #78 of 237 (17852 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 21, 2003
Posts: 1421

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
You guys seem to be forgetting that the belay loop catches all the leader falls. that harnes may have caught hundreds of leader falls.It also could have been severly abraded and being old exposed to lots of sunlight?

If you're tied in properly (to waist AND leg loop) how does the belay loop cathc all the leaders falls??

well, your loop might not catch you when you fall, but hopefully your belayer's loop will.


slablizard


Oct 26, 2006, 2:30 PM
Post #79 of 237 (17852 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 13, 2003
Posts: 5558

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
You guys seem to be forgetting that the belay loop catches all the leader falls. that harnes may have caught hundreds of leader falls.It also could have been severly abraded and being old exposed to lots of sunlight?

If you're tied in properly (to waist AND leg loop) how does the belay loop cathc all the leaders falls??

I suspect he meant on belay. You catch leader falls when you belay.


leezerdgirl


Oct 26, 2006, 2:36 PM
Post #80 of 237 (30062 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 8, 2005
Posts: 141

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

My heart goes out to Todd's family. What a tragedy. I wish them strength and many loved ones around them to support them.

I have seen in the past that it is customary to start a separate thread to analyze an accident and leave the original thread for condolences and remembrances, out of respect for the climber and his or her family. Perhaps we should do that here.


tradmanclimbs


Oct 26, 2006, 3:11 PM
Post #81 of 237 (17851 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

That is exactly what I mean. every time you catch a fall with a grigri or ATC etc that belay loop is going to take a hit. working high end climbs all the time maby that belay loop had caught a lot of falls????


the_climber


Oct 26, 2006, 3:28 PM
Post #82 of 237 (30061 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 8, 2003
Posts: 6142

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
My heart goes out to Todd's family. What a tragedy. I wish them strength and many loved ones around them to support them.

I have seen in the past that it is customary to start a separate thread to analyze an accident and leave the original thread for condolences and remembrances, out of respect for the climber and his or her family. Perhaps we should do that here.

Well said.

Again, my thought are with Todd's family and friends. I'll say my own silent goodbye to him out on a climb on the weekend. Inspirational doesn't come close to how he was viewed by all to many climbers. He helped so many to see what could be done, while simply following his passion.


quiteatingmysteak


Oct 26, 2006, 3:57 PM
Post #83 of 237 (30061 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 15, 2004
Posts: 804

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Having grown up in my climbing career with stories of the greats are, it seems a little surreal that such an icon can be so real and fragile. Whenever I meet a climber that I see in Magazines or Catalogues, I am always surprised by how amiable, laid back, and REAL they are. They are just climbers.

It is truly a pity that a lifestyle that relies so much on tight bonds of partnerships, trust and faith in who you are close to, is one that can also have all that torn from us. It doesn't take much to appreciate what another climber has done, whether its in the climbing he/she does or their family. These accomplishments go hand in hand, the loss of the climbing community is a fraction to those of his freinds and family, and it is to them I send my prayers.


To cooler days and clearer skies.

-Greg


anykineclimb


Oct 26, 2006, 4:29 PM
Post #84 of 237 (17851 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 3593

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
You guys seem to be forgetting that the belay loop catches all the leader falls. that harnes may have caught hundreds of leader falls.It also could have been severly abraded and being old exposed to lots of sunlight?

If you're tied in properly (to waist AND leg loop) how does the belay loop cathc all the leaders falls??

I suspect he meant on belay. You catch leader falls when you belay.

oh DUH.

but wouldn't a lot of the force be taken by the rope and gear?


djsulli


Oct 26, 2006, 8:21 PM
Post #85 of 237 (30061 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 27

Not Just Another Tragedy... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

... Once again, i sit and read a story about one of my hero's dying.

How do i contain my shock, my disbelief? My profound sense of loss goes so far beyond a day of mourning and moving on, every time we lose a person like Todd Skinner a lil piece of us all goes with them.

with this loss, rock climbing as a sport turns a corner into new and uncharted territory. Gone is one of the true legends of climbings wildest and most progressive era's, the sport will never be the same.

I dont have any stories to share about me and Todd, i cant say i even knew the man. but he did inspire me in a huge way through his powerful climbing, amazing acomplishments, and positive approach to life that was conveyed through interviews, movies and close fellow aquaintances.

Tommorow, life will go on. But right now, i think i speak for everyone when i say "we honor you mr. Skinner, for all your contributions".
//Sulli


curt


Oct 26, 2006, 11:03 PM
Post #86 of 237 (30061 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 18234

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Like Mal, I have memories of climbing with Todd going back 25 years or more. We did a lot of fun stuff in Joshua Tree, The Gunks, Hueco and probably a couple of other places that my jet-lagged mind is not fully recalling right now.

I heard of Todd's passing via telephone while in Moscow a couple of days ago. My heart goes out to his family and friends. I will always remember Todd as an inspirational force in climbing. By that I mean personally inspirational. He would always encourage me (and others around him) to do things they may have thought impossible. Often his personal energy did indeed make the difference between success and failure on a route--at least for me.

Although I hadn't seen Todd for several years now, I will miss him dearly.

Curt


curt


Oct 26, 2006, 11:13 PM
Post #87 of 237 (30061 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 18234

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Todd...was by far one of the friendly climbers I have ever been around. His big smile is forever in my mind-eye.

Without a doubt, Bob.

Curt


biggernhell


Oct 26, 2006, 11:28 PM
Post #88 of 237 (30061 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 7, 2002
Posts: 563

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I've waited a few days to post my response to Todd's death. I guess I just needed the time to process. He was one of my early climbing heroes. I met him at Vedawoo a couple of years back, but I never really knew the man. He seemed like one hell of a guy and I remember him as being 100% energy while I was around him.

My deepest condolences go out to his family and friends.


Good luck Todd. I hope wherever you are the rock is warm and sunny and the beer is cold.


fuzzbait


Oct 26, 2006, 11:45 PM
Post #89 of 237 (17851 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 27, 2005
Posts: 81

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

This year I retired all my old gear and bought: a new Bluewater rope, new BD QDs, new slings, ATC and locking biners. I even got 3 new pairs of shoes (only one I had to pay for).

The thing I didn't buy, didn't even consider, maybe stupidly now, was a new harness. My harness is so comfortable and I do take care of it but.... It is 5+ years and seen a lot more than the weekend warrior amount of climbing. In fact several of those years were full time everyday climbing in the hot sun and sand. I will be taking a good hard look at my harness inspecting every inch. I think though that I to will be looking into the purchase of a new harness and retiring this most vital piece of equipment.

Paranoid??? Maybe. It is my life though and a harness isn't that much in terms of cost.

Thank You

Joe


fuzzbait


Oct 26, 2006, 11:47 PM
Post #90 of 237 (17851 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 27, 2005
Posts: 81

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

This year I retired all my old gear and bought: a new Bluewater rope, new BD QDs, new slings, ATC and locking biners. I even got 3 new pairs of shoes (only one I had to pay for).

The thing I didn't buy, didn't even consider, maybe stupidly now, was a new harness. My harness is so comfortable and I do take care of it but.... It is 5+ years and seen a lot more than the weekend warrior amount of climbing. In fact several of those years were full time everyday climbing in the hot sun and sand. I will be taking a good hard look at my harness inspecting every inch. I think though that I to will be looking into the purchase of a new harness and retiring this most vital piece of equipment.

Paranoid??? Maybe. It is my life though and a harness isn't that much in terms of cost.

Thank You

Joe


fuzzbait


Oct 26, 2006, 11:49 PM
Post #91 of 237 (17851 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 27, 2005
Posts: 81

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

This year I retired all my old gear and bought: a new Bluewater rope, new BD QDs, new slings, ATC and locking biners. I even got 3 new pairs of shoes (only one I had to pay for).

The thing I didn't buy, didn't even consider, maybe stupidly now, was a new harness. My harness is so comfortable and I do take care of it but....

The harness is 5+ years and seen a lot more than the weekend warrior amount of climbing. In fact several of those years were full time everyday climbing in the hot sun and sand. I will be taking a good hard look at my harness inspecting every inch. I think though that I to will be looking into the purchase of a new harness and retiring this most vital piece of equipment.

Paranoid??? Maybe. It is my life though and a new harness isn't that much in terms of cost.

Thank You

Joe


gimmeslack


Oct 27, 2006, 4:10 AM
Post #92 of 237 (17851 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 24, 2006
Posts: 134

Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Although personally I have resisted using one, I wonder if this is an argument in favor of a prussik backup for rapping? Presumably, if threaded through a non-speed-buckle leg loop, it would even save you from a loosened buckle.

I also understand all the arguments about loop construction, strength, etc., but I'm starting to think I need to get used to the added hassle of dealing with a backup...


boredwolf


Oct 27, 2006, 4:28 AM
Post #93 of 237 (17851 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 18, 2006
Posts: 75

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

The belay loop is generally regarded as the most secure point of a harness. The fact that it attaches to both your leg-loops and the rodeo-bar (or whatever it's really called) is what would possibly make it less secure. Setting aside the possibility of a manufacturing defect, the only realistic possibility is that a harness is used beyond its reasonable lifetime of 1-3 years. You should always retire a harness when the belay loop begins to look frayed or worn. Beyond that, I'm much more familiar with using a prussik as a back-up for a rappel, as opposed to saving your butt from a failing harness. If your belay loop does fail, I'm not very confident that you're going to stay in that harness too long...


norskagent


Oct 27, 2006, 5:20 AM
Post #94 of 237 (17851 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 9, 2003
Posts: 409

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

"Anyone who still teaches you to clip into your tie-in points is unaware of the actual contruction of a belay loop, and doesn't understand how carabiners really break."

Cheers,
Jim
I understand that clipping into both the waist and legloops of a harness gives me 2 failsafe points, and keeps me less prone to "tipping".
I also understand how to orient a biner to not crossload.


bill413


Oct 27, 2006, 5:22 AM
Post #95 of 237 (17851 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 5674

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Yes, this could be an argument for the back-up. However, many folks attach their prussik backup to the same belay loop that the rap rig is on. So...it would not protect against the loop failure.

The other common practice is to attach a friction knot to one leg loop. Hanging from this might be rather startling & uncomfortable, but it might work.


boredwolf


Oct 27, 2006, 5:36 AM
Post #96 of 237 (17851 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 18, 2006
Posts: 75

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
The other common practice is to attach a friction knot to one leg loop. Hanging from this might be rather startling & uncomfortable, but it might work.
It is incredibly uncomfortable, and I've only tried it while upright and switching rappels. If we are operating undere the assumption that your belay loop has failed, then there is nothing keeping you from falling-out of your leg loops except your thigh straps (mine are dinky little elastic bands).
If this whole scenario is truly a concern for you, might I suggest a klemheist placed above your rappel device and tied-in to your rodeo bar. The klemheist is easier to loosen once weighted, and it is highly unlikely that you will be able to extrude your upper body (or lower, in the case you become inverted) through your swami belt. Placing the stopper-knot above your rappel device will also decrease the extension in the system in the event of failure, and will prevent whip-lash.


fmd


Oct 27, 2006, 5:57 AM
Post #97 of 237 (17851 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 15, 2006
Posts: 656

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The other common practice is to attach a friction knot to one leg loop. Hanging from this might be rather startling & uncomfortable, but it might work.
It is incredibly uncomfortable, and I've only tried it while upright and switching rappels. If we are operating undere the assumption that your belay loop has failed, then there is nothing keeping you from falling-out of your leg loops except your thigh straps (mine are dinky little elastic bands).
If this whole scenario is truly a concern for you, might I suggest a klemheist placed above your rappel device and tied-in to your rodeo bar. The klemheist is easier to loosen once weighted, and it is highly unlikely that you will be able to extrude your upper body (or lower, in the case you become inverted) through your swami belt. Placing the stopper-knot above your rappel device will also decrease the extension in the system in the event of failure, and will prevent whip-lash.


As bill413 had said, if you put the back up onto your rap loop, and it fails the prussic or klemhiest isnt going to do much. Every class I had taken in the last 5 years had taught the back up goes BELOW the rap device and that the other end goes into your leg loop. It is easier to release if you loose control of your back up, there is less force on the back up cord or webbing and yes it will be uncomfortable if the rap loop breaks, but you arent going to deck.

Just out of curiousity, has any one ever heard of a belay loop breaking on a rap or belay?


uasunflower


Oct 27, 2006, 6:10 AM
Post #98 of 237 (17851 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 11, 2003
Posts: 1563

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

fmd, check todd skinner accident...


fmd


Oct 27, 2006, 6:17 AM
Post #99 of 237 (17851 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 15, 2006
Posts: 656

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
fmd, check todd skinner accident...


I did??...If you are referring to his rap loop breaking, I am wondering other than Todd Skinner. This is the first time I had ever heard of a rap loop breaking.


Partner heiko


Oct 27, 2006, 6:22 AM
Post #100 of 237 (17851 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 3, 2005
Posts: 1505

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

as already mentioned, rappell backup through the leg loop is incredibly uncomfortable. if you've ever been hanging from it to un-clusterf*kk your ropes, you know why. rather either put the biner holding the belay device or the one holding the prussik through the upper and lower loop of your harness (parallel to the belay loop).
just my 2c.


8flood8


Oct 27, 2006, 6:31 AM
Post #101 of 237 (15676 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 1436

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The other common practice is to attach a friction knot to one leg loop. Hanging from this might be rather startling & uncomfortable, but it might work.
It is incredibly uncomfortable, and I've only tried it while upright and switching rappels. If we are operating undere the assumption that your belay loop has failed, then there is nothing keeping you from falling-out of your leg loops except your thigh straps (mine are dinky little elastic bands).
If this whole scenario is truly a concern for you, might I suggest a klemheist placed above your rappel device and tied-in to your rodeo bar. The klemheist is easier to loosen once weighted, and it is highly unlikely that you will be able to extrude your upper body (or lower, in the case you become inverted) through your swami belt. Placing the stopper-knot above your rappel device will also decrease the extension in the system in the event of failure, and will prevent whip-lash.

the reason that most people give for placing your backup BELOW the belay device is because you can shockload your backup and depending on the device, damage your rope.

what i do is extend my belay device (shorter than my weighted, upward reach) and place my backup (a petzl shunt - which is a mechanical prussik) on a biner on my belay loop.

more details -- I have a 7mm cord that is girth hitched through my tie-in points extending my rap device about 2 feet off of my harness, once again my backup is on my belay loop. This system is redundant and i can still reach above my belay device to unweight it, should i need to.

Another way to eliminate your fear of the belay loop breaking is to get a metolius safe-tech harness. Almost every piece on that harness is rated to withstand a fall (except for the leg bungees in the back, i believe)

or you can go all out and get a metolius safe-tech waldo - which has 2 belay loops.

hope that helps


boredwolf


Oct 27, 2006, 6:47 AM
Post #102 of 237 (15676 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 18, 2006
Posts: 75

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
If this whole scenario is truly a concern for you, might I suggest a klemheist placed above your rappel device and tied-in to your rodeo bar

As bill413 had said, if you put the back up onto your rap loop, and it fails the prussic or klemhiest isnt going to do much. Every class I had taken in the last 5 years had taught the back up goes BELOW the rap device and that the other end goes into your leg loop. It is easier to release if you loose control of your back up, there is less force on the back up cord or webbing and yes it will be uncomfortable if the rap loop breaks, but you arent going to deck.
My mistake, I shall detail the parts of a harness for those too unedjumicated to figure it out. I submit that tying the klemheist into the upper tie-in point on the harness is more safe because it prevents falling out of your harness during inversion. Tying your stopper knot to the (failing) belay loop would not be redundant, making the whole venture pointless. Whereas it is easier to release the knot when placed below, it is going to hurt like hell in the event of failure. In the interest of conserving both time and energy, I propose that anyone who is actually concerned about the possibility of their belay loop breaking should immediately purchase a new harness.


gimmeslack


Oct 27, 2006, 6:48 AM
Post #103 of 237 (15676 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 24, 2006
Posts: 134

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I see my initial post digressing into a discussion re diff methods of backing up a rap. That's ok. But really, I was just thinking out loud, and wondering how far one should go in providing redundancy? Some links are stronger than others (both due to their material properties as well as to their configuration), but is it ever reasonable to rely on one single link if with modicum of effort a backup can be provided?

I realize that I'll sometimes have to rely on a single link, and I'm a firm believer in the KISS principle, but where alternatives exist am I foolish for ignoring them...?

I'd love to see a flowchart showing the many links in a typ climbing scenario, the strengths of the individual components, and the statistical chance (maybe based on real-world data?) of each one failing.


fmd


Oct 27, 2006, 6:51 AM
Post #104 of 237 (15676 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 15, 2006
Posts: 656

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
The other common practice is to attach a friction knot to one leg loop. Hanging from this might be rather startling & uncomfortable, but it might work.
It is incredibly uncomfortable, and I've only tried it while upright and switching rappels. If we are operating undere the assumption that your belay loop has failed, then there is nothing keeping you from falling-out of your leg loops except your thigh straps (mine are dinky little elastic bands).
If this whole scenario is truly a concern for you, might I suggest a klemheist placed above your rappel device and tied-in to your rodeo bar. The klemheist is easier to loosen once weighted, and it is highly unlikely that you will be able to extrude your upper body (or lower, in the case you become inverted) through your swami belt. Placing the stopper-knot above your rappel device will also decrease the extension in the system in the event of failure, and will prevent whip-lash.

the reason that most people give for placing your backup BELOW the belay device is because you can shockload your backup and depending on the device, damage your rope.

what i do is extend my belay device (shorter than my weighted, upward reach) and place my backup (a petzl shunt - which is a mechanical prussik) on a biner on my belay loop.

more details -- I have a 7mm cord that is girth hitched through my tie-in points extending my rap device about 2 feet off of my harness, once again my backup is on my belay loop. This system is redundant and i can still reach above my belay device to unweight it, should i need to.

Another way to eliminate your fear of the belay loop breaking is to get a metolius safe-tech harness. Almost every piece on that harness is rated to withstand a fall (except for the leg bungees in the back, i believe)

or you can go all out and get a metolius safe-tech waldo - which has 2 belay loops.

hope that helps


There are several reasons. If you loose control of the back up, (if you are using a prussic) it is difficlut to release (step loops are needed most of the times). If you are speeding out of control on a rap, most peoples first incline is to grab the rope above the rap device, hence releasing the prussic or klemhiest.


boredwolf


Oct 27, 2006, 7:06 AM
Post #105 of 237 (15676 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 18, 2006
Posts: 75

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

While I agree completely with gimmeslack's view of safety and redundancy, it is my belief that it is not the heart of any belay loop failure. There have been numerous studies and comments as to the redundancy and safety-overkill inherent in the belay loop. The purpose of a belay loop is to keep 'biners off your nuts and bits while you're belaying or rappeling. Feel free to put your rappel/belay biner through your tie-in points, as it makes no real difference in the overall safety of the climber. The true point of failure in a belay loop is the climber who, out of neglect or ignorance, failed to retire a deteriorating harness. While not as obvious as a deeply-scored 'biner or a cam with hairline fractures, an aged harness is just as dangerous (if not more).


fmd


Oct 27, 2006, 7:08 AM
Post #106 of 237 (15676 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 15, 2006
Posts: 656

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
If this whole scenario is truly a concern for you, might I suggest a klemheist placed above your rappel device and tied-in to your rodeo bar

As bill413 had said, if you put the back up onto your rap loop, and it fails the prussic or klemhiest isnt going to do much. Every class I had taken in the last 5 years had taught the back up goes BELOW the rap device and that the other end goes into your leg loop. It is easier to release if you loose control of your back up, there is less force on the back up cord or webbing and yes it will be uncomfortable if the rap loop breaks, but you arent going to deck.
My mistake, I shall detail the parts of a harness for those too unedjumicated to figure it out. I submit that tying the klemheist into the upper tie-in point on the harness is more safe because it prevents falling out of your harness during inversion. Tying your stopper knot to the (failing) belay loop would not be redundant, making the whole venture pointless. Whereas it is easier to release the knot when placed below, it is going to hurt like hell in the event of failure. In the interest of conserving both time and energy, I propose that anyone who is actually concerned about the possibility of their belay loop breaking should immediately purchase a new harness.

Or for those too uneducated to state what they really want to say..


fitzontherocks


Oct 27, 2006, 7:20 AM
Post #107 of 237 (15676 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 11, 2003
Posts: 858

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Isn't a belay loop called a belay loop because its real purpose is to hold your ATC while you're belaying? I've used mine to rap from, but it makes me a little nervous, even though I've seen many, many MANY times that "It's the strongest point on your harness." 99% of the time, I'll put my locking biner around the waistband AND leg-connecting-web-thingy (did someone call that a "rodeo bar"?). And when I do that, it FEELS more secure, because there's more strong webbing under the biner. So, tell me why it's known as a "belay loop" and not a "rappel loop." (This thread is the very first time I've seen it called a "rap loop.")


boredwolf


Oct 27, 2006, 7:37 AM
Post #108 of 237 (15676 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 18, 2006
Posts: 75

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

The rodeo bar is the lower tie-in point of your harness; My mistake.


8flood8


Oct 27, 2006, 7:37 AM
Post #109 of 237 (15676 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 1436

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Isn't a belay loop called a belay loop because its real purpose is to hold your ATC while you're belaying? I've used mine to rap from, but it makes me a little nervous, even though I've seen many, many MANY times that "It's the strongest point on your harness." 99% of the time, I'll put my locking biner around the waistband AND leg-connecting-web-thingy (did someone call that a "rodeo bar"?). And when I do that, it FEELS more secure, because there's more strong webbing under the biner. So, tell me why it's known as a "belay loop" and not a "rappel loop." (This thread is the very first time I've seen it called a "rap loop.")

from what you wrote it sounds, to me, like you are cross-loading your biners.

In reply to:
I see my initial post digressing into a discussion re diff methods of backing up a rap. That's ok. But really, I was just thinking out loud, and wondering how far one should go in providing redundancy? Some links are stronger than others (both due to their material properties as well as to their configuration), but is it ever reasonable to rely on one single link if with modicum of effort a backup can be provided?

do you climb with double ropes? a single rope is not redundant.

What are you using your belay loop for, that necessitates that it be redundant? I suppose you could wrap another piece of tape through your tie in points and tie it off with a water knot if you need redundancy in your belay loop. Or you can buy a harness that has two.

if you are talking about rapelling with your device attached to your belay loop, i outlined a redundant system in my earlier post.
the only other thing i can add is that i'm not quite sure what question you are asking :) (no flame intended)


Partner camhead


Oct 27, 2006, 7:46 AM
Post #110 of 237 (15676 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 9, 2001
Posts: 20796

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Rant.

First off, I'm glad that there is now a separate thread for all the worry-warts to nitpickover stupid points in, rather than in the thread about the Skinner tragedy. I've always really hated seeing memorial threads move into accident analysis.

NOW... none of us yet know the details of why or how Skinner's belay loop failed, but all this talk of a prussik backup, rapelling off of your tie-in loops, or whatever, is redundant, no pun intended.

There are always going to be single points of failure in climbing. There is a point at which we just accept this fact. I suppose that, next time a climber dies from a rope breaking on rappel, someone will suggest that now is the time to start rappeling attached to a second backup rope!

Bottom line is that belay loops are pretty goddamned bomber. They are easy to inspect, they are tack-stitched to hell, and many harnesses nowdays actually sew TWO belay loops into one for added redundancy. This is way more solid than any rope.

There is nothing wrong with belaying or rapping off of your tie-in points, other than perhaps an increased chance of cross-loaing or fucking up on locking the biner due to harder visual inspection, but it is unnecessary.

it is always good to learn from accidents, but I think that the only thing we can learn from this is to INSPECT old belay loops, retire old gear, rather than start adding redundant and superfluous backups.



(p.s... if any of the safety freaks in here do start using their tie-off point or using clunky backups to their belay loop for rappeling, then they should also do so for belaying. That's just common courtesy, and to so otherwise would imply that you value your life more than your partner's.)


gimmeslack


Oct 27, 2006, 7:54 AM
Post #111 of 237 (15676 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 24, 2006
Posts: 134

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
...and wondering how far one should go in providing redundancy? ...but is it ever reasonable to rely on one single link if with modicum of effort a backup can be provided?


As boredwolf sez:
"do you climb with double ropes? a single rope is not redundant.

What are you using your belay loop for, that necessitates that it be redundant? I suppose you could wrap another piece of tape through your tie in points and tie it off with a water knot if you need redundancy in your belay loop. Or you can buy a harness that has two.

if you are talking about rapelling with your device attached to your belay loop, i outlined a redundant system in my earlier post.
the only other thing i can add is that i'm not quite sure what question you are asking :) (no flame intended)"


I do climb with a single rope. I often attach to a single locker. I'm often belayed by a single individual (non-autoblock), and I've been known to anchor to a single block or subsantial tree. Oh, and I can't stand the clutter of a rap backup, regardless of how it's configured.

I also regularily review my actions and ponder whether there are better systems, new things to learn, or smarter ways to skin the proverbial cat.
:wink:


cchildre


Oct 27, 2006, 7:58 AM
Post #112 of 237 (15676 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 5, 2004
Posts: 671

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I am thinking, if your rapping, I hardly think that this would be the point where a belay loop would fail. The loads are static and far lower than during fall. The belay loops will hold like 50kn without even being sewn, just taped the friction generated holds plenty. I am going to read up on this skinner business, and new info is appreciated. I just think it is funny when your worried about the belay loop failing during a rap, when that fear should be just as obvious when you belaying your partner on lead where the forces are much higher.


boredwolf


Oct 27, 2006, 8:00 AM
Post #113 of 237 (15676 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 18, 2006
Posts: 75

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

~THE END~


cchildre


Oct 27, 2006, 8:01 AM
Post #114 of 237 (15676 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 5, 2004
Posts: 671

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I am thinking, if your rapping, I hardly think that this would be the point where a belay loop would fail. The loads are static and far lower than during fall. The belay loops will hold like 50kn without even being sewn, just taped the friction generated holds plenty. I am going to read up on this skinner business, and new info is appreciated. I just think it is funny when your worried about the belay loop failing during a rap, when that fear should be just as obvious when you belaying your partner on lead where the forces are much higher.


cchildre


Oct 27, 2006, 8:01 AM
Post #115 of 237 (15676 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 5, 2004
Posts: 671

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I am thinking, if your rapping, I hardly think that this would be the point where a belay loop would fail. The loads are static and far lower than during fall. The belay loops will hold like 50kn without even being sewn, just taped the friction generated holds plenty. I am going to read up on this skinner business, and new info is appreciated. I just think it is funny when your worried about the belay loop failing during a rap, when that fear should be just as obvious when you belaying your partner on lead where the forces are much higher.


the_climber


Oct 27, 2006, 8:11 AM
Post #116 of 237 (27886 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 8, 2003
Posts: 6142

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

There have been a few requests to leave this thread as a memorial thread to Todd where we can express our condolences and memories of this hero/friend/legend.

Out of respect for Todd, which I think everyone here has, lets leave this thread one about the Man, and not clutter it with discusion about the accident.
There is another thread disscusing belay loop failure here.

Thank you


tradmanclimbs


Oct 27, 2006, 8:20 AM
Post #117 of 237 (15676 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Not useing your belay loop and belaying/rapping through your waist and leg loops can cause other problems. The real Issue is inspecting and retireing old gear. I just bought a dozen new biners and retired as many from my system. The belay loop could have been frayed in the back where it is not as obvious. It has been established that the harness was ratty enough that Tods partner pointed it out to him and suggested that he replace it. when was the last time you looked at your partner and said "dude that harness is totaly spent, you better get a new one"? Pushing top end climbs all the time who knows how many big falls that harness caught? how many thousands of hours abrading away on the rock soaking up UV rays? It sucks and its a bummer but now we know that we can't just abuse this stuff forever and expect it to still do it's job.


ericbeyeler


Oct 27, 2006, 8:34 AM
Post #118 of 237 (15676 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 12, 2004
Posts: 160

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

http://sfgate.com/...06/10/26/CLIMBER.TMP

In reply to:
The part that broke, called the belay loop, is designed to be the strongest part of the climbing harness, but Hewett, 34, said Skinner's harness was old.

"It was actually very worn," Hewett said. "I'd noted it a few days before, and he was aware it was something to be concerned about." Friends of Skinner said he had ordered several new harnesses but they hadn't yet arrived in the mail.

Eric


fmd


Oct 27, 2006, 8:46 AM
Post #119 of 237 (15676 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 15, 2006
Posts: 656

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Rant.

First off, I'm glad that there is now a separate thread for all the worry-warts to nitpickover stupid points in, rather than in the thread about the Skinner tragedy. I've always really hated seeing memorial threads move into accident analysis.

NOW... none of us yet know the details of why or how Skinner's belay loop failed, but all this talk of a prussik backup, rapelling off of your tie-in loops, or whatever, is redundant, no pun intended.

There are always going to be single points of failure in climbing. There is a point at which we just accept this fact. I suppose that, next time a climber dies from a rope breaking on rappel, someone will suggest that now is the time to start rappeling attached to a second backup rope!

Bottom line is that belay loops are pretty goddamned bomber. They are easy to inspect, they are tack-stitched to hell, and many harnesses nowdays actually sew TWO belay loops into one for added redundancy. This is way more solid than any rope.

There is nothing wrong with belaying or rapping off of your tie-in points, other than perhaps an increased chance of cross-loaing or f---ing up on locking the biner due to harder visual inspection, but it is unnecessary.

it is always good to learn from accidents, but I think that the only thing we can learn from this is to INSPECT old belay loops, retire old gear, rather than start adding redundant and superfluous backups.



(p.s... if any of the safety freaks in here do start using their tie-off point or using clunky backups to their belay loop for rappeling, then they should also do so for belaying. That's just common courtesy, and to so otherwise would imply that you value your life more than your partner's.)

Paul. I agree with ya that the belay loops are pretty bomber, but there are different levels of climbing. And with the different level of climbing comes the different level of hard skills and knowledge from climbers. There are some organizations out there that do suggest you double rope rappell (youth groups). I had been to quite a few classes where they stress (mandates) to back up your rappell, even if you have a belay while you are in the class. It really shouldnt be a "safety freak" label for asking the "what if's". If someone is in doubt, they should back it.


ericbeyeler


Oct 27, 2006, 8:47 AM
Post #120 of 237 (15676 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 12, 2004
Posts: 160

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I do an autoblock off the leg loop. It's fast, simple, and provides big safety benefits. When I read that Todd's belay loop broke, my first reaction was holy sh*t, my next thought was he didn't use a rappel backup.

Eric


justthemaid


Oct 27, 2006, 8:56 AM
Post #121 of 237 (15676 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 10, 2004
Posts: 777

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Got news for ya folks...belay loops can fail.

A friend of mine had one fail. Fortunately in a spot where nothing bad happened. No fault to the harness company...this was also an old, ratty, worn out harness that should have been replaced. .

For the last few years since that happened, I have tied a permanent piece of accessory cord to back up my belay loop. I've endured some quizzical looks, but it's cheap and easy and gives me piece of mind.

...and I back up all my rappels.


Partner cracklover


Oct 27, 2006, 9:12 AM
Post #122 of 237 (15676 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10061

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Got news for ya folks...belay loops can fail.

A friend of mine had one fail. Fortunately in a spot where nothing bad happened. No fault to the harness company...this was also an old, ratty, worn out harness that should have been replaced. .

For the last few years since that happened, I have tied a permanent piece of accessory cord to back up my belay loop. I've endured some quizzical looks, but it's cheap and easy and gives me piece of mind.

...and I back up all my rappels.

The double belay loop may be adding extra wear to the points it goes through. Which is fine, but just something to keep an eye on. This from Kate (holdplease2) over on ST.

Personally, I think the real lesson to be learned here is not that we need to back up the rappel (unless that floats your boat) or add a second belay loop, but that we need to throw out our harnesses when they wear out. At least that's the lesson I took. Threw out my harness last night. My partner had been giving me shit for the last few months, ever since I'd been able to tear chunks off the side of the belay loop. Seemed like it was still 95%, but better safe than sorry.

GO


kachoong


Oct 27, 2006, 9:36 AM
Post #123 of 237 (15676 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 15304

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

You'd actually be surprised how much your belay loop, and the joining part of the leg loops that run through the belay loop, can wear from just the action of walking. We all walk long distances (if you add it up) with our harnesses on. Next time you are walking, watch what happens to the leg loop part of your harness that runs through the belay loop. It rubs.... with each step. Just watch it and wonder what this does over time. I disposed of my last harness because of this.

Personally I never rap off my belay loop. I put the biner through waist and leg loops. I will always use an auto-block on the leg loop when rapping on multipitch.... I know it's just as important when rapping single pitch, but it's faster to just rappel without it..... therein lies my own dilemma. I should re-evaluate my methods and motivations to rap with or without a backup. Why not use a few extra minutes to have a back up on EVERY rappel? Those moments surely add up if you're rapping off a big wall and could have you rapping in the dark... but for piece of mind, it's worth it.

...btw... good job seperating the threads.


8flood8


Oct 27, 2006, 10:17 AM
Post #124 of 237 (15676 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 1436

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

yah -- i back up every rappell, and i trained my wife to do so as well.

i have probably answered this question 50 times : "What is that speckled thing hanging off your harness?"

why... its a petzl shunt... a mechanical prussik... used for backing up a rappell or as an ascender in an emergency... bla blah blah!


yah it takes a few minutes, but i don't EVER notice that it takes me longer because it is part of my routine. It makes me double check my rap device before i can load the shunt properly. All in all i get teased for my safety-ness, but so what, i'd not rather be one of those statistics, or one of those "accident reports" on the front page.


majid_sabet


Oct 27, 2006, 10:19 AM
Post #125 of 237 (15676 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 8368

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

backup belay loop with prussic
backup prussic to harness
backup harness to chest harness
back both to a two rope system
back up one rope to ATC
backup ATC to GriGri
Back anchor to your car
Back up belayer to a large stone
Backup fears with helmet
Backup Knowledge with Skills

BACKUP YOUR LIFE WITH EVERY THING YOU GOT, WHEN YOUR TIME IS UP
ALL BACKUPS ON EARTH WILL FAIL.


fmd


Oct 27, 2006, 10:36 AM
Post #126 of 237 (15482 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 15, 2006
Posts: 656

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
backup belay loop with prussic
backup prussic to harness
backup harness to chest harness
back both to a two rope system
back up one rope to ATC
backup ATC to GriGri
Back anchor to your car
Back up belayer to a large stone
Backup fears with helmet
Backup Knowledge with Skills

BACKUP YOUR LIFE WITH EVERY THING YOU GOT, WHEN YOUR TIME IS UP
ALL BACKUPS ON EARTH WILL FAIL.



Prove it!!!!


jonescd


Oct 27, 2006, 11:14 AM
Post #127 of 237 (15482 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 28, 2006
Posts: 30

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

This accident was obviously related to the amount of harness use that Todd gave to his harnesses which was alot. Harnesses should be made to withstand those sorts of abuses and even a relative amount of age. Over the years I have seen harnesses become thinner, lighter, and more stitching breaking sooner. My first harness in 1987, a misty mountain, was the best made harness I've ever owned. There are still no ripped stitches or large frays (I don't still rap on it). The point is, that I could probably rappel on it today and the rap loop would not break under my body weight or three of our body weights together. I don't like 99% of today's harnesses for that reason (i've owned several petzls and the belay/rap loops are frayed badly and multiple stitches are hanging loose within 5 months of regular use). Most of todays harnesses are built more for performance and lightness than safety. Even Misty went lighter with most of their harnesses - which I immediatly noticed and was disappointed in. I suspect a change after this accident will occur in manufacturing -hopefully. If you are Misty Mtn. guys there is a market for you to return to your bullet strong harnesses of the past - my family is one of them. The hell with saving 2 ounces of weight -- Todd's accident didn't have to occur but I suspect he trusted his manufacturer to overbuild the harness well enough to accept his body weight or he wouldn't have rapped on that old loop at all without a backup.

If the harness was truly worn and the age was the factor then why didn't the tie-in loops fail on his leader falls long before his belay loop failed under body weight. I would like to know the exact model of harness he was in and see a picture of the stitching eventually. I suspect the worn stitching or the thickness of the loop was the main factor on this one - they just were not up to taking the kind of abuse of a Todd Skinner climbing granite chimneys and cracks every day. He could probably wear out a Petzl in 5 months - pretty expensive for a full-time climber with a family of harnesses.


jonescd


Oct 27, 2006, 11:40 AM
Post #128 of 237 (15482 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 28, 2006
Posts: 30

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

This accident was obvious related to the amount of harness use that Todd gave to his harnesses which was alot. Harnesses should be made to withstand those sorts of abuses and even a relative amount of age. Over the years I have seen harnesses become thinner, lighter, and more stitching breaking sooner. My first harness in 1987, a misty mountain, was the best made harness I've ever owned. There are still no ripped stitches or large frays (I don't still rap on it). The point is, that I could probably rappel on it today and the rap loop would not break under my body weight or three of our body weights together. I don't like 99% of today's harnesses for that reason (i've owned several petzls and the belay/rap loops are frayed badly and multiple stitches are hanging loose within 5 months of regular use). Most of todays harnesses are built more for performance and lightness than safety. Even Misty went lighter with most of their harnesses - which I immediatly noticed and was disappointed in. I suspect a change after this accident will occur in manufacturing -hopefully. If you are Misty Mtn. guys there is a market for you to return to your bullet strong harnesses of the past - my family is one of them. The hell with saving 2 ounces of weight -- Todd's accident didn't have to occur but I suspect he trusted his manufacturer to overbuild the harness well enough to accept his body weight or he wouldn't have rapped on that old loop at all without a backup.

If the harness was truly worn and the age was the factor then why didn't the tie-in loops fail on his leader falls long before his belay loop failed under body weight. I would like to know the exact model of harness he was in and see a picture of the stitching eventually. I suspect the worn stitching or the thickness of the loop was the main factor on this one - they just were not up to taking the kind of abuse of a Todd Skinner climbing granite chimneys and cracks every day. He could probably wear out a Petzl in 5 months - pretty expensive for a full-time climber with a family of harnesses.


lena_chita
Moderator

Oct 27, 2006, 11:57 AM
Post #129 of 237 (15482 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 27, 2006
Posts: 5858

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

The thought that occurred to me while brushing teeth this morning:

If everything is getting so "fool-proof in these days that even toothbrushes have 'indicator bristles" that progressively discolor to let you know when it is time to replace the toothbrush, shurely it would be possible to devise some sort of "indicator thread" to run along the edges/over the belay loop& tie-in loops. Something that would change color with sunlight exposure, for example... or something that could be an indicator in another way, as in: "if you have rubbed through this thread, the harness needs replacing"

It will probably be useless b/c many people won't check it, or won't follow up on it (case in point-- my 2 months old toothbrush supposedly needs to be replaced. I will, really, I will do it soon. Just not TODAY)

--so don't flame me please. It was just an idle thought.

but still, it would be nice if there were some sort of a quantitative way of judging how good a harness (or any other gear) still is, vs. just "inspecting it regularly for signs of excessive wear" b/c let's face it, most people can't tell by looking just when there is a line crossed from "broken-in but still completely safe" into "potentially dangerous". Just saying X many years won't work for everyone b/c there is such a range of how people use it, whether they take a lot of lead falls or belay someone who does, climb on sharp rock, wear harness while walking, or whatever.


epic_ed


Oct 27, 2006, 12:31 PM
Post #130 of 237 (27692 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 17, 2002
Posts: 4723

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Out of respect for Todd's family and friends it would be appropriate that the topic of this thread be left to just to commemorate Todd's life and to help share the stories of those who are grieving from his loss. Undoubtedly, we're all wondering how this happened and what could have gone wrong, but this thread -- as it is -- has become kind of a sacred spot in the ether for friends and family to come and try to cope. Maybe we can best honor that quest by taking up the discussion of the accident, itself, in another thread at another time.

My condolences to Todd's friends and family. I wish I could have known him.

Ed


nomuse


Oct 27, 2006, 1:14 PM
Post #131 of 237 (15482 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 31, 2006
Posts: 6

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

"Indicator thread" was the first thing I thought of, too, when I heard that this had been a badly-worn belay loop. Heck, they've been putting similar stuff in tires for decades.

An odd note...did a theatrical show recently with Flying By Foy...and every harness I saw them using for flying actors or for the "Foy" himself was quarter-inch _leather_.


knudenoggin


Oct 27, 2006, 1:23 PM
Post #132 of 237 (15482 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 6, 2004
Posts: 594

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
A friend of mine had one fail. Fortunately in a spot where nothing bad happened. No fault to the harness company...this was also an old, ratty, worn out harness that should have been replaced.
Could you share details about this?

In reply to:
This accident was obviously related to the amount of harness use that Todd gave to his harnesses which was alot. Harnesses should be made to withstand those sorts of abuses and even a relative amount of age.
Prudence thrives on circumspection. We should be asking for some analysis
of the broken gear--which broke at a force orders of magnitude less than it was
designed to endure.
.:. I'm skeptical that the loop could've been so worn that an experienced
climber would continue to use it (and, presumably, for more than merely holding
body weight on rappel).

*knudeNoggin*

ps: It would be nice of Kate ("holdplease2"?) of SuperTopo could retrieve her
just-retired harness and send its belay loop to someone (SterlingJim or Grimbo)
for testing, so we can have a hard datapoint on what something which to at
least ONE user appeared to be roughly "95%" of full strength.
--rather than continue in guesswork. (The UIAA has tested old, ratty climbing
ropes, e.g., and found that they all held one severe (UIAA test) fall.)


yankeebama


Oct 27, 2006, 1:23 PM
Post #133 of 237 (15482 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 7, 2004
Posts: 49

BD harness problems [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Well, I got a new harness after just 5 years because the waist webbing was fraying...so I'd cut it back/burn tight the endges...eventually it just got to short... Now I have a black Diamond..which I hate....whatever you call the mini loop that is none weight bearing but centers the rope...use to be permanent...but BD's needs to be double back...but it keeps coming out and then catching on the rope...which shifts my off center ...which leaves all my weight on one leg.

Any suggestions
thanks


nthusiastj


Oct 27, 2006, 1:26 PM
Post #134 of 237 (15482 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 3, 2002
Posts: 1993

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Not sure if this has been linked yet, but good info anyway.

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/scene/beta/qc_kp.php


Partner macherry


Oct 27, 2006, 1:42 PM
Post #135 of 237 (15482 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 10, 2003
Posts: 15809

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
backup belay loop with prussic
backup prussic to harness
backup harness to chest harness
back both to a two rope system
back up one rope to ATC
backup ATC to GriGri
Back anchor to your car
Back up belayer to a large stone
Backup fears with helmet
Backup Knowledge with Skills

BACKUP YOUR LIFE WITH EVERY THING YOU GOT, WHEN YOUR TIME IS UP
ALL BACKUPS ON EARTH WILL FAIL.

humour attempt :?


eaglesfn68


Oct 27, 2006, 1:47 PM
Post #136 of 237 (15482 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 21, 2006
Posts: 19

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

why not just have one harness for just belaying and one for climbing. so they dont get worn out that much.


eaglesfn68


Oct 27, 2006, 1:47 PM
Post #137 of 237 (15482 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 21, 2006
Posts: 19

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

why not just have one harness for just belaying and one for climbing. so they dont get worn out that much.


leezerdgirl


Oct 27, 2006, 2:07 PM
Post #138 of 237 (15482 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 8, 2005
Posts: 141

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
why not just have one harness for just belaying and one for climbing. so they dont get worn out that much.

Either you're being funny or you're a sport climber.

Come to think of it, not much difference, is there? :)


leezerdgirl


Oct 27, 2006, 2:08 PM
Post #139 of 237 (15482 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 8, 2005
Posts: 141

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Double post. Gotta love the phantom error messages.


Partner cracklover


Oct 27, 2006, 3:17 PM
Post #140 of 237 (15482 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10061

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
ps: It would be nice of Kate ("holdplease2"?) of SuperTopo could retrieve her
just-retired harness and send its belay loop to someone (SterlingJim or Grimbo)
for testing, so we can have a hard datapoint on what something which to at
least ONE user appeared to be roughly "95%" of full strength.
--rather than continue in guesswork.

Knude, I think you may be referring to my harness, not Kate's. Anyway, I estimated my belay loop to be 95% good. But I tossed it, and it's probably been picked up by the trash collection people already.

GO


jimdavis


Oct 27, 2006, 3:42 PM
Post #141 of 237 (15482 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1935

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Ok guys....time to climb off the short bus...take out your harnesses, and follow along with me here.

Look at the side profile on your belay loop...what do you see? Two full loops of webbing? Stitching going through 3 layers? Good, that's two independant layers of webbing...your belay loop is redundant!

Now, here's some info from the BD site
http://www.bdel.com/scene/beta/qc_kp.php
this link seems to be acting up...click SCENE> then BETA/ INFO > then KP.

In reply to:
From the Black Diamond Harness Instructions:

♦ A Black Diamond harness belay loop can withstand 15 kN (3372 lbf) of force.

CE requirements
The CE required testing is a bit difficult to desribe, but basically, the belay loop must withstand 15 kN for a period of 3 minutes.

Actual Black Diamond Test Data
* Though our inline batch test rating is 3372 lbf, we regularly see belay loops test to over 6000 lbf, with a historical average of over 5000 lbf.

** Note: I've tested several other manufacturer's belay loops and they all are in the same ballpark for ultimate strength.

also from the bd site: http://www.bdel.com/..._al_detail.php#usage
In reply to:
# When using belay and rappel devices, they should only be attached to the belay loop.

also on that page, a belay loop with a 75% cut tested to ~3k lbs!

this belay loop tested to 4800 lbs
http://www.bdel.com/images/scene/web.jpg

And the final work from Kolin P...
In reply to:
A Final Word

Is this incident going to cause every climber out there to start wanting two belay loops, or tieing a backup supertape belay loop in their current harness or throw their harness away altogether and buy a new one immediately? It shouldn't. Reputable manufacturer's make burly harnesses—bottom line—and don’t forget that there are some negatives/concerns about using two belay loops at once in some situations (i.e. tri-axial loading carabiners, etc.)—not good.

Harnesses, and belay loops in particular are super strong for sure, but we can't forget that gear does wear out. Every climber is responsible to know the history of his or her gear and act accordingly. When people ask me about worn gear, or gear that's been dropped, or has undergone a strange or peculiar event, I always have to play the conservative card of "when in doubt, retire it"—because the last thing you want to be thinking of in the back of your mind when you're 20 feet above your last piece of sketchy gear is... "geez, I wonder if that's that biner that I dropped that time," or "I sure hope my harness is in good enough shape to withstand this monster whipper I'm about to take." It's not worth having to worry about—I personally have a hard enough time worrying about trying NOT to fall…

Climb safe,

KP

For more info about tri-axial loading on biners....aka: why you shouldn't clip biners into you tie in points....
http://www.rockclimbing.com/topic/118883 from this thread...
In reply to:
If I remember correctly, the UIAA (I think) published a report in the last few years detailing several deaths that occurred due to belaying and/or rappelling using the harness points instead of the belay loop. Essentially, what happened is that the biner rotated, became stuck such that the gate was facing directly upward, and when the rope was weighted it pulled through the gate. In each of the cases locking biners were used, and in at least one case, the locking sleeve failed in shear. Using the belay loop is absolutely imperative in my book.


Loading a biner at 3 points, can esentially do the same thing as loading a biner over an edge...biners must be able to align themselves with a pull. Biners break all the time when they get loaded over an edge, or get torqued...there are numerous reasons to only clip a biner around 2 things.

The USMGA had a great article about this a while back...but they haven't renewed their website. If folks still want to see that article, I can scan it and get it back up online for a bit.

I really can't belive how you guys can disregard everything in you harnesses instruction manual, and your biners instructions....fail to see that your belay loops are redundant....etc.

It's kinda shocking that so many of you don't really understand how your gear works, and how it breaks.

Jim


jonescd


Oct 27, 2006, 4:28 PM
Post #142 of 237 (15482 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 28, 2006
Posts: 30

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Jim,

Some decent points made. Again when biners are clipped into tie-ins there still needs to be operator error to allow the biner to load on the gate. The possibility of triaxial loading breaking a biner with body weight is nonexistent - especially the way that biners are loaded when rappelling - not very triaxial with most harnesses. When you can give me a litmus test of when to retire a harness based on belay loop wear, I will change my personal strategies for rappelling. However, as posted earlier, not all lightweight harnesses are redundant and if they are it is often with inadequate resistance to even early wear for those climbing rough rock and chimneys on a frequent basis. Belay loops rub the rock more often than not when climbing. We can analyze this one but the fact is something wasn't beefy enough here - with a good harness it wouldn't happen- they stopped making those years ago with exception of a couple on the market. People are tradding in sport harnesses not very well designed to withstand the abrasions that take place in big wall. Yes the manufacturers want to say that these are overbuilt with their tests, but they should still test out to body weight even at 10 years to be worthy of buying - not that I would rappel on one that old but to give they safety buffer needed for extreme use situations like Skinners. No fingers pointed to single manufacturers but this emphasis has definitely been on thin and light the past 10 years - ropes have been on the same course and you now hear about more ropes failing than when 10.5 was the standard rather than 10.2 or 9.8. Climbers wanting to push harder and harder numbers have been sacrificing beefy nylon for light and thin - that has been the demand.


tradmanclimbs


Oct 27, 2006, 4:48 PM
Post #143 of 237 (15482 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Anyone who thinks that rapping only exerts body weight forces on the gear is delusional. yes rapping down a smooth slab is pretty soft but backing over huge roofs near the start of your rap can cause a near leader fall situation. haveing your feet slip when getting started on the rap can cause a shock load. haveinge a serak or ice ledge break out from under you etc. I had a perfectly good rock ledge fall out from underneath myself and partner while standing at a rap station 500ft off the deck. you can bet that we both shock loaded that system. haveing your biner crossloaded over the buckel of your harness caus you were to paranoid to use the thing the way it was designed is just plain FCKN stoopid :roll:


knudenoggin


Oct 27, 2006, 6:14 PM
Post #144 of 237 (15482 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 6, 2004
Posts: 594

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
ps: It would be nice ... for testing, so we can have a hard datapoint on what something which to at
least ONE user appeared to be roughly "95%" of full strength.
--rather than continue in guesswork.

Knude, I think you may be referring to my harness, not Kate's. Anyway, I estimated my belay loop to be 95% good. But I tossed it, and it's probably been picked up by the trash collection people already. GO
Oh, yes, 'twas your post (thought you were relaying some ST post ...).

May I recommend (call it counterbalancing your higher exploits :lol: ) some
dumpster diving? Oh, well ... opportunity lost.

The used-gear testing that has been done by various people with the means & smarts
sheds useful light on evaluation (nb: KP's check of exposed draws, e.g.!).
Maybe there should be some effort to collect retired harnesses to gain some
insight into residual strength (since that seems to be an item not so usually
checked?). The oft'-given advice "if you don't trust it, or doubt ..." really isn't
helpful; one needs to have a basis for such doubt/trust better than myths.

Perhaps this might be the sort of thing that could be organized under some The Lab
topic.

---------------

To the focus of this thread--Skinner's failed belay loop--, esp. after reading
KP's discussion, we really need good info on that particular loop. The usual
construction of these loops should leave a significant amount of material protected
from surface damage (abrasion, heat, UV), and be well strong enough to hold.

Where is that piece, now?

*kN*


Partner mr8615


Oct 27, 2006, 6:23 PM
Post #145 of 237 (15482 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 4, 2004
Posts: 1032

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
having your biner crossloaded over the buckle of your harness cause you were too paranoid to use the thing the way it was designed is just plain FCKN stoopid :roll:

Brilliant, my thoughts exactly. If you clip the biner to three things from three directions, it WILL cause triaxial loading. Triaxial loading is bad. Solution, use your gear in a way that jives with the manufacturer's specifications, use your belay loop. Back up your rappel, by all means. Be safe, as safe possible given circumstances. Be responsible for your actions, make the best decision possible given your situation. It's that simple.


jimdavis


Oct 27, 2006, 7:40 PM
Post #146 of 237 (15482 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1935

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Jim,
The possibility of triaxial loading breaking a biner with body weight is nonexistent - especially the way that biners are loaded when rappelling - not very triaxial with most harnesses. When you can give me a litmus test of when to retire a harness based on belay loop wear, I will change my personal strategies for rappelling.

not all lightweight harnesses are redundant and if they are it is often with inadequate resistance to even early wear for those climbing rough rock and chimneys on a frequent basis.

Belay loops rub the rock more often than not when climbing. We can analyze this one but the fact is something wasn't beefy enough here - with a good harness it wouldn't happen- they stopped making those years ago with exception of a couple on the market. People are tradding in sport harnesses not very well designed to withstand the abrasions that take place in big wall. Yes the manufacturers want to say that these are overbuilt with their tests, but they should still test out to body weight even at 10 years to be worthy of buying - not that I would rappel on one that old but to give they safety buffer needed for extreme use situations like Skinners.

Your really being foolish now.

You trust a belay loop to catch lead falls...but not to rap on?
As mentioned above, there are plenty of ways to generate lots of force when rapping. Again, your being stupid to use gear in a way you know isn't compatable with its design.

People tradding in sport harnesses? Your showing how green you are with this statement...you obviously buy more into marketing hype than anything else, here.

If it was a good harness it wouldn't have happened? Oh...really! How's that? You know how long that harness was used for? How intensively it'd been used? Your making bold statments, with no involvment with the accident, and no proof to backup your claims.

I can trash a harness fast, grinding it into rough chimneys as hard as I can...and you think the measure of a good harness is on that can take years of abuse of grinding it against rock 50+ days a year, for 10 years? Why, do you wanna climb in 5 inch webbing, covered in 3 layers of kevlar?

Belay loops rub the rock far more often than not? Not in all the time I've spent climbing, nor seen the harnesses of more expereienced climbers than me. Provide me with 5 pics of climbers grinding their belay loops against the rock, and I'll give your argument some merrit.

Harnesses, like all soft goods, have a usuable life. Retire then when you wear them out. Depending on whether you climb chimneys all day long, and grind your leg loops against slab sitting belays, or whatever...you'll wear your harness out faster than other. Just like you would a rope.

If you can't deal with retireing your harness when you wear it out...then you deffinitly shouldn't be using a rope either.

Lastly, you say they need to design a harness to withstand extreem use, like Todds uses....I guess they need to design extreeeeeeeem ropes too that last for years and years of hard use, and belay devices, and slings. With all this stuff that wears out after a few years of hard use...it's a wonder that more people haven't died with all this faulty equipment floating around! What do they expect us to do...retire it when it gets worn out???

If you can provide more than just a personal opinion, to go against the manufactures instructions of use for harnesses and biners...and more than silly claims about how you should be able to take a belt sander to a harness for 10 years....then I'll consider your points.

Until then, your not gonna convince anybody of much.

Jim


jimdavis


Oct 27, 2006, 8:04 PM
Post #147 of 237 (15482 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1935

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
the reason that most people give for placing your backup BELOW the belay device is because you can shockload your backup and depending on the device, damage your rope.

I've never heard such a claim before.

If you hav a device in...on rappel, above your device...and you fall on it...you won't shock load anything. #1 your probably on dynamic rope. #2 you by definition, can't take anything larger than a factor 1 fall on the backup.

So, since your talking about mechanical backups...like the Petzl basic or something...check out their manuals. They recommend it for use along a fixed line, as long as you don't climb past it....ie: don't create more than a factor 1 fall on it.

Now, most climbers don't use mechanical backups for rappeling. Most use friction hitches. The reason to put it below, is it never sees full weight...thus it's easier to release once weighted....it won't get out of reach either...and it lets you use both hands to control your descent (both below device).

Having a backup above a rope isn't gonna damage it....period.

Jim


curt


Oct 27, 2006, 8:06 PM
Post #148 of 237 (15482 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 18234

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
...Your really being foolish now...

...your not gonna convince anybody of much.

Jim

Thank God that you two at least have that much in common.

Curt


jimdavis


Oct 27, 2006, 8:13 PM
Post #149 of 237 (15482 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1935

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
...Your really being foolish now...

...your not gonna convince anybody of much.

Jim

Thank God that you two at least have that much in common.

Curt

Care to enlighten me about this? Being that your always correct...as we all know by now.


jimdavis


Oct 27, 2006, 8:16 PM
Post #150 of 237 (15482 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1935

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
yah -- i back up every rappell, and i trained my wife to do so as well.

its a petzl shunt... a mechanical prussik... used for backing up a rappell or as an ascender in an emergency... bla blah blah!

Trained her to backup her raps, huh? When you gonna train her to roll over and play dead?

So you'd rather carry a large, metal, single purpose piece of gear....rather than...i dunno...say, a sling? there might be a reason people keep asking you what that speckled metal thing is...


jonescd


Oct 27, 2006, 8:49 PM
Post #151 of 237 (16600 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 28, 2006
Posts: 30

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Jim,
I am trying to provide food for thought. I think it is disrespectful to throw personal attacks in every gear debate -- you pulled me into this last time and will not again. It is a waste of everyone's energy to read this here. You tend to try to provoke with these comments and it just shows that you are overly defensive of your "supreme" techie knowledge. This is unbecoming of any gumbie AMGA guide. Green, hell boy, your resume again shows that you stand in the shadow of the canopy. Please give us all the courtesy to analyze accidents without the AMGA fascist representation. As I told you before, I don't really care for everything the AMGA has to say and again with this accident we see another example of how safety can be improved beyond the teachings of AMGA. Like it or not your teachings are not perfect.

Curt, what are latest pebble's that you have ripped your tips on in Phoenix?


curt


Oct 27, 2006, 9:02 PM
Post #152 of 237 (16600 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 18234

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
...Curt, what are latest pebble's that you have ripped your tips on in Phoenix?

FYI, "pebbles" should be plural rather than possessive. But, I digress..... Oh, the answer to your question is that Oak Flat is just coming into prime bouldering season here. :wink:

Curt


majid_sabet


Oct 27, 2006, 9:29 PM
Post #153 of 237 (16600 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 8368

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

These two experts are taking this last good forum down


jimdavis


Oct 28, 2006, 12:09 PM
Post #154 of 237 (16600 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1935

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Please give us all the courtesy to analyze accidents without the AMGA fascist representation.

Huh....and where did I post anything of that sort?

Oh, i see...so, someone posts a bunch of legitimate info, with links to back it up....and it threatens your techniques and practices.....so your defense if that I'm a AMGA fascist?

It's pretty foolish to think that an argument about following the recommendations of the manufacturers of all this gear....has something to do with "guiding practices"...more like common sense.

Here's what Mal has to say about clipping biners into your tie in points...form the thread I linked. What are you gonna call him now? A retail fascist?

In reply to:
Time to jump in here...

First, the pedantic gene in me is screaming. It's not tri-axle loading, it's triaxial!!! There are not three axles on a carabiner and you can make the argument that there are no axles on a carabiner. It is possible, however, to load a carabiner on three axes, thus, triaxial loading.

Second, not one single harness manufacturer, ever, has recommended clipping your belay biner into the tie-in points of your harness if it has a belay loop. That's right, never. The recommendations that you've heard to do this are from well meaning people--many of them instructors--who tout the "redundancy' thing. Bottom line is that the belay loop on your harness is the strongest place on yout harness with failure load sometimes in excess of 8,000lbf. To my knowledge there has never been an injury due to the failure of a belay loop on a harness. There have been multiple injuries and some deaths do to complications of clipping a carabiner to the tie-in points.

Here are some of the things that have happened when a carabiner has been clipped to the tie-in points of a harness.

1) Triaxial loading of the carabiner resulting in carabiner failure
2) Triaxial loading can locate the rope at the gate notch, damaging or cutting the rope over the sharp gate and hinge edges.
3) The carabiner hole in a rigid device (Fig 8, Grigri, Cinch, SUM, SGBII, etc) has located over over the locking collar, causing a levering action on the gate and breaking it.

This was all nicely summed up and evaluated in a UIAA safety commission report that was issued as a warning in 2001. Link to it here: http://www.uiaa.ch/...20with%20figure8.pdf.

BTW, There is a ton of great info on that UIAA site. It's real, it's definitive and it should answer lots of the questions that crop up repeatedly on this site. Those of you interested in the standards and test methods used you can find them on the UIAA site as well: http://www.uiaa.ch/?c=310

Climb safe,
Mal

I think we can all see that you just throwing punches blindly, now...bringing up arguments from other threads, without the ability to offer any reasoning to why I'm/ we're wrong here. Can't say I'm surprised though.

If you wanna debate my points, fine. Debating resumes is kinda silly though, considering all the outside proof I can provide for my points...that is, unless your just trying to rip on me, and not talk about the issue here. If THAT'S that case, do it over PM.

Cheers,
Jim


jonescd


Oct 28, 2006, 2:05 PM
Post #155 of 237 (16600 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 28, 2006
Posts: 30

Re: *Merged topic* What went wrong? Skinner accident thread [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

steelmonkey

Penalty Slacker

143 posts added
since 10 Oct 2002
Offline
Post Posted: 17 Feb 2004 19:23 Reply with quote Send private message Back to top
Dude here in Phx at the rock gym cratered a few years back when his belay loop blew when he was lowering off a lead route. Lucky for him, only 26 feet or so to a rubber covered floor. But then I think the main cause of the accident was that he was using a very worn harness that probably should have been retired.

The above post does show other belay loops blowing. That took 5 minutes to find. I saw one other post which also happened in a gym. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples out there where wear and tear on a harness causes loop failure.

Also when looking at the other threads out there, there seems to be as much debate as there is here concerning rappelling or belaying off tie-in points vs belay loops. I always belay off the belay loop but like the extra reinforcement on the tie-in points for rappelling (though I have never taught students to rappel from their tie-in points) - its just my old school way of doing it that has always worked for me personally. If Todd had used this method he would be alive. That is enough to convince me to continue despite any techie debates. Here are several posts from long-time valley climbers concerning belaying (not rappelling) from a belay loop. There is also a discussion about triaxial loading on RC.com where there is still 50/50 agreement/disagreement. Sure, the manufacturers and AMGA are going to back their own arguments. I say let the people decide what works for them - both have their advantages and disadvantages that seem evenly split. For me the tie-in points have reinforced protective nylon shell to protect wear of the weight bearing nylon. Maybe the belay loop should have the same protective layer.

From: Douglas McMullin

I agree that belaying from the belay/rap loop is the best for the belay carabiner. I however hate it and do not do it. I prefer the way a biner sits when cliped through both the waist and leg loop part of the harness.

Yes the biner gets sort of tri loaded, but not really. Even in a hard fall (on my harness anyway) the leg loop portion of the harness never sees any load - what so ever. So its not actually being loaded three ways. Also even in a worst case fall the amout of force that hits that biner even in a three way load comes no where close to the breaking point.

From: Steven Cherry

The triax fear seems pretty ungrounded to me. When the leader takes a good fall, the belay biner orients itself and the two parts of the tie-in come pretty close together. What I like about the tie-in point belay is that the rope runs horizontally through the belay device (using the belay loop means the loop has to be twisted to get the same angle).

From: Karl Baba (very long time veteran valley rat)

I agree that the danger of cross loading is extremely minimal. Belaying off a biner clipped through the waist and leg loop parts of the harness gives you more room to use your hands feeding and taking in rope, thus giving the leader a better belay. Thus, you give up a tiny bit of safety and get a bigger bit of safety in return.

Another factor to consider regarding crossloading, if you belay solely off the belay loop, the biner flops around much more freely including positions loading the minor axis of the biner. If it is clipped in your whole harness, it stays put, which, when met with a strong upward pull (fall) generally bunches the force and webbing at the bottom of the biner with the rope and plate at the top of the biner, really only loading the minor axis.


jimdavis


Oct 28, 2006, 4:56 PM
Post #156 of 237 (16600 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1935

Re: *Merged topic* What went wrong? Skinner accident thread [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
steelmonkey

Penalty Slacker

143 posts added
since 10 Oct 2002
Offline
Post Posted: 17 Feb 2004 19:23 Reply with quote Send private message Back to top
Dude here in Phx at the rock gym cratered a few years back when his belay loop blew when he was lowering off a lead route. Lucky for him, only 26 feet or so to a rubber covered floor. But then I think the main cause of the accident was that he was using a very worn harness that probably should have been retired.

The above post does show other belay loops blowing. That took 5 minutes to find. I saw one other post which also happened in a gym. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples out there where wear and tear on a harness causes loop failure.

Also when looking at the other threads out there, there seems to be as much debate as there is here concerning rappelling or belaying off tie-in points vs belay loops. I always belay off the belay loop but like the extra reinforcement on the tie-in points for rappelling (though I have never taught students to rappel from their tie-in points) - its just my old school way of doing it that has always worked for me personally. If Todd had used this method he would be alive. That is enough to convince me to continue despite any techie debates. Here are several posts from long-time valley climbers concerning belaying (not rappelling) from a belay loop. There is also a discussion about triaxial loading on RC.com where there is still 50/50 agreement/disagreement. Sure, the manufacturers and AMGA are going to back their own arguments. I say let the people decide what works for them - both have their advantages and disadvantages that seem evenly split. For me the tie-in points have reinforced protective nylon shell to protect wear of the weight bearing nylon. Maybe the belay loop should have the same protective layer.

From: Douglas McMullin

I agree that belaying from the belay/rap loop is the best for the belay carabiner. I however hate it and do not do it. I prefer the way a biner sits when cliped through both the waist and leg loop part of the harness.

Yes the biner gets sort of tri loaded, but not really. Even in a hard fall (on my harness anyway) the leg loop portion of the harness never sees any load - what so ever. So its not actually being loaded three ways. Also even in a worst case fall the amout of force that hits that biner even in a three way load comes no where close to the breaking point.

From: Steven Cherry

The triax fear seems pretty ungrounded to me. When the leader takes a good fall, the belay biner orients itself and the two parts of the tie-in come pretty close together. What I like about the tie-in point belay is that the rope runs horizontally through the belay device (using the belay loop means the loop has to be twisted to get the same angle).

From: Karl Baba (very long time veteran valley rat)

I agree that the danger of cross loading is extremely minimal. Belaying off a biner clipped through the waist and leg loop parts of the harness gives you more room to use your hands feeding and taking in rope, thus giving the leader a better belay. Thus, you give up a tiny bit of safety and get a bigger bit of safety in return.

Another factor to consider regarding crossloading, if you belay solely off the belay loop, the biner flops around much more freely including positions loading the minor axis of the biner. If it is clipped in your whole harness, it stays put, which, when met with a strong upward pull (fall) generally bunches the force and webbing at the bottom of the biner with the rope and plate at the top of the biner, really only loading the minor axis.

Again, you show someone abusing their gear, and show it to be reason to use your gear incorrectly. By your reasoning, you should not follow the recommendations of the manufactures, so that you can abuse it and not retire it as needed....I don't care for that argument.

As stated by Douglas in your quoted post....do you know what kind of force really breaks a biner in a tri-load? Show me some average force values that breaks triloaded biners...then I'll belive that it's not possible.

You also state that people like to run a rope horizontally, and that's why you like that method. I don't do this, nor do most climbers I know these days. I brake directly infront of myself, and rappel there as well....I see no reason to orient the ropes this way when using an device with appropriate friction.

Karl states that you keep the carabiner from moving around, by clipping it into your tie in points....when you pin a carabiner, and prevent it from being able to allign with a pull...then you can break carabiners. Belaying a leader causes a lot of movement to go on with your belay device....either the belay device and rope are gonna move around...or the biner is. If you pin the biner in one spot...then all that is gonna happen is the rope and device will move around...now it's free to get hung up on the gate of the biner, and break the gate.

Since your quoted posts use statments like...
In reply to:
generally
...well generally a cross loaded biner will align itself back to major axis alignment with a good pull...Most people belay with Asymetric D biners....when the belay biner has an angle like this < the load will slide along one of the sides, generally, and reorient the biner. Also, DMM makes a biner that prevents crossloading, and some newer harnesses has spots on their belay loop to prevent a biner from rotating. It isn't that hard to notice when you have a cross loaded biner...you can feel the whole device and rope move noticably closer to yourself.

The quotes I have used from Mal, and BD, have clearly shown how harnesses and biners are ment to be used, and have shown specific evidence as to why this should be done.

Your claims defend this inferrior method, and offer no real advantages. Multiple deaths have been attributed to your method of connecting biners to ones harness. The only real benefit is the way the rope runs, which I don't care for one bit...nor does just about everyone I've climbed with. Your sources even admit that it's not as safe as the alternative.

You still state that you belay off of your belay loop, but don't trust it to rappel on....your clearly showing that the life of your partner isn't worth retiring your gear as nescessary. If your not willing to trust your life, to what you trust your partners life to...why should anyone climb with you? Or trust you? Apparently others lives aren't worth more than the $50 or so that a new harness costs, to you atleast.

So tell me again why we should take safety advice from you?

Jim


jonescd


Oct 28, 2006, 7:45 PM
Post #157 of 237 (16600 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 28, 2006
Posts: 30

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Jim,

Here you go again. I am not stating that belaying off the tie-in points should be done. You read the quotes I submitted but missed what I said about advocating belays from the belay loop. I am not giving you or anyone safety advice -- I am mainly stating that something needs to be done here - one of the greatest died and there are things we can think about as a climbing community to see that what happened doesn't go unanswered. We are all here sharing what we do personally to examine this. Hopefully you are perfect but I sincerely don't think anyone with 4 years of experience and an AMGA toprope certification warrants giving safety advice and claiming that most old school climbers know absolutely nothing about their personal safety - you're advice is fine for teaching situations (albeit toproping) where liability is the key issue for following industry standards.

Please stop arguing and spewing every time you post in response to someone sharing their personal style. Do you know me? What is your issue? I've climbed and guided for twenty years without a scratch and have a right to state what I do on RC.com without being subjected to your harrassment. Please stop posting to me in this forum. My last post was not to you.


dutyje


Oct 28, 2006, 9:05 PM
Post #158 of 237 (16600 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 31, 2004
Posts: 727

Re: *Merged topic* What went wrong? Skinner accident thread [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
Dude here in Phx at the rock gym cratered a few years back when his belay loop blew when he was lowering off a lead route. Lucky for him, only 26 feet or so to a rubber covered floor. But then I think the main cause of the accident was that he was using a very worn harness that probably should have been retired.

My intent here is to remain a spectator in this gumby thread, but I (as a gumby) can't resist pointing out that if the "dude" had just led a route, he should have been tied into his tie-in points instead of his belay loop. Unless the gym is using shuts similar to an outdoor anchor which would require the leader to anchor in and re-thread, wherein most leaders will use the belay loop as a convenient re-attachment point to be lowered.

I don't understand, in a typical gym setting, how the leader's belay loop had been weighted at all during this sequence of events. Outdoors, of course, it's a whole new ball game.

Maybe the belayer's loop blew? As has been stated before, you would expect this to happen in a fall scenario rather than a low-impact scenario such as lowering off a route.


jimdavis


Oct 28, 2006, 9:52 PM
Post #159 of 237 (16600 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1935

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
I am mainly stating that something needs to be done here - one of the greatest died and there are things we can think about as a climbing community to see that what happened doesn't go unanswered.

The issue wasn't that a belay loop failed...it's that a harness was pushed to hard for too long. If it was a new harness, or it broken under minimal wear...then there might be something to consider here.

If Tommy Caldwell, or someone of equal stature...broke a rope that'd been used heavilly for years and years of hard use....would we be screaming about ropes needing to be built better?

I just don't get how you can recommend misusing equipment, because someone pushed a harness beyond it's limits with years of abuse. Numerous experts in the industry have written in that belay loops are designed for all attachments of carabiners, be it belaying or rappeling.

Why should one accident attributed to misuse change anything... if anything we should just be more cautious, and retire our gear conservativly.

How is it that you call this a personal attack? Yet your the one throwing stones about resumes and qualifications?

I think we would all benefit if we could see the harness in question, and see just what shape it was in. I wonder if BD will run a chemical analysis on the belay loop...if it was found.

Cheers,
Jim


jonescd


Oct 28, 2006, 10:12 PM
Post #160 of 237 (16600 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 28, 2006
Posts: 30

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

dutyje,

The gym harness sounds like there was a tie-in with the rope on TR as far as what I saw on that thread. I've even heard industry experts say that tying into a belay loop is accepted - not for me.


Partner philbox
Moderator

Oct 29, 2006, 9:12 PM
Post #161 of 237 (28810 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 26, 2002
Posts: 13104

Re: Todd Skinner Killed [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Seems that this thread is once again open for memorial posts.

The What went wrong thread is here. Please post here all of your condolonces and keep the other thread for discussion on what may have gone wrong.

In the mean time I shall keep the rest of this post for a silent moment for the passing of a fellow climber. I recently lost a dear friend and climbing partner so I understand well the loss of a mate. Goodbye Todd, I didn't know you personaly but I canfeel something of the loss of those around you.


stymingersfink


Oct 30, 2006, 6:54 PM
Post #162 of 237 (16600 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 7250

Re: Belay loop failure [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
It sucks and its a bummer but now we know that we can't just abuse this stuff forever and expect it to still do it's job.

nothing new there, it's something we've always known, though not all accept this as fact. FWIW, I bought a harness, climbed on it for a week or two then stored it in a closet for 7 years. When I decided that I had enough time to become a climber, out it came. After climbing on it for several months I was approaching the chains on a TR to clean the draws when I experienced a bad feeling about hanging on my belay loop. That was the last time I wore the harness, as it was cut and junked that night. It's hard to climb on gear you can not trust.

this event is yet another proof to chongo's theory that

"Death cares not how bitchin' you are"

the circumstances outlined in the newspaper article make it that much more frustrating, that the situation could be identified before hand but no action was taken... something we all have done and will probably continue to do in many aspects of our lives. (listen to the small quiet voices, they are often the most important ones!)

My heart goes out to his partner as well as the friends/families of both men.


I wish i had met the man before death came a callin' him. He will be missed...


Partner angry


Oct 30, 2006, 7:05 PM
Post #163 of 237 (16600 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 21, 2003
Posts: 8405

Re: *Merged topic* What went wrong? Skinner accident thread [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Until we know the brand, model, and year of manufacture of the Skinner harness, this thread will accomplish nothing.


htotsu


Oct 30, 2006, 8:57 PM
Post #164 of 237 (16600 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 10, 2005
Posts: 673

Re: *Merged topic* What went wrong? Skinner accident thread [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)