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Safest belay technique
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reno


Apr 3, 2009, 8:15 AM
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Re: [notapplicable] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
If I've learned anything from this discussion, it's that every method is deeply flawed and we're all going to die.

I for one am sticking to auto-belays at the gym.

Laugh


justroberto


Apr 3, 2009, 8:15 AM
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Re: [d0nk3yk0n9] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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d0nk3yk0n9 wrote:
I just want to try to summarize what we can actually agree upon so far:
You're not really paying attention, are you?


Partner cracklover


Apr 3, 2009, 10:19 AM
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Re: [clausti] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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clausti wrote:
In reply to:
Exactly. This falls squarely outside the example I gave for situations requiring a very sensitive belay. If the gear is minimal, and the potential fall is very severe, the most important thing is to brace yourself against the direction of the fall (with your legs), and be prepared to get both hands on the brake strand.

GO

this is beating my head against the wall at this point, but wouldn't the fall potential of a situation factor directly into how "sensitive" [attentiveness and slack management was basically your definition] a belay needs to be?

Move over, it's my turn to beat my head into the wall!

Yes. The fall potential factors into the situation, and influences the belay. That's exactly what I said. I described a specific set of parameters in which the palm up belay is best for me. That is a situational best, not an "always" best as you keep claiming I think.

When the potential fall becomes very serious, giving the most "sensitive" belay becomes secondary to a number of other factors.

Let me give a more extreme example to elucidate: When I'm belaying a leader with doubles, I typically have one rope running between two fingers, and the other pinched in my palm (palm up). This gives me the best ability to give and feed slack independently in the two ropes. However, if a severe fall is possible, my brake hand wraps fully around both ropes, so as to be able to put the most friction on them if the leader falls. The sensitivity of the belay suffers slightly (or at least potentially).

My understanding is that Jay mostly does single pitch sport. For him, belaying a leader of about his same weight, he pretty much always finds himself in the situation (or whatever you want to call it) I describe in which the sensitive belay is the best.

GO


Partner cracklover


Apr 3, 2009, 11:01 AM
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Re: [clausti] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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clausti wrote:
gabe was not giving "a situation," of any kind. i asked gabe for a situation and he said the same "anytime you need a sensitive belay", which is not a situation; it's far too broad of a descriptor. like i said before, neither "all single pitch" nor "anytime you need a sensitive belay" are situations.

That's either a bald-face lie or else you're being so obtuse that there's no reasoning with you. Multiple times I've spelled out some very specific parameters within which I would or wouldn't use that belay method. At no time did I make the simple blanket statement you claim without specifying how it is defined (and what is within and without its bounds). I really don't think I can spell it out any clearer.

Whether you're unwilling to deal with me on the level, or I'm just incapable of getting my point across to you, I don't know. But either way, I guess there's no point trying to discuss that particular matter further with you (unless you can acknowledge what I'm actually saying).

GO


clausti


Apr 3, 2009, 11:17 AM
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Re: [cracklover] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
clausti wrote:
gabe was not giving "a situation," of any kind. i asked gabe for a situation and he said the same "anytime you need a sensitive belay", which is not a situation; it's far too broad of a descriptor. like i said before, neither "all single pitch" nor "anytime you need a sensitive belay" are situations.

That's either a bald-face lie or else you're being so obtuse that there's no reasoning with you. Multiple times I've spelled out some very specific parameters within which I would or wouldn't use that belay method. At no time did I make the simple blanket statement you claim without specifying how it is defined (and what is within and without its bounds). I really don't think I can spell it out any clearer.

Whether you're unwilling to deal with me on the level, or I'm just incapable of getting my point across to you, I don't know. But either way, I guess there's no point trying to discuss that particular matter further with you (unless you can acknowledge what I'm actually saying).

GO

"anytime you need a sensitive belay" is not a situation. it's just not specific. neither is "anytime you're belaying someone of about your same weight."

you did give me some parameters; you never gave me even one hypthetical situation.

and if you're done, that's fine. have a nice day.


Johnny_Fang


Apr 3, 2009, 11:26 AM
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Re: [clausti] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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i'm just wondering if anyone here knows how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.


curt


Apr 3, 2009, 11:32 AM
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Re: [Johnny_Fang] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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Johnny_Fang wrote:
i'm just wondering if anyone here knows how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Are you holding the pin head up, or head down?

Curt


Johnny_Fang


Apr 3, 2009, 11:41 AM
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Re: [curt] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
Johnny_Fang wrote:
i'm just wondering if anyone here knows how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Are you holding the pin head up, or head down?

Curt

Only a FAWKING MORON would hold it head down.


Partner cracklover


Apr 3, 2009, 1:13 PM
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Re: [cracklover] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
cracklover wrote:
In reply to:
seriously, though, in what situations would palm be the "best method"? I can't think of any.

Anytime you're belaying a leader of around the same weight as you, in which a sensitive belay is required. For example, single pitch well protected sport or trad in which you can see your partner throughout, especially if the climbing is near the leader's limit.

GO

Examples where I do not use palm up:
-Toprope belaying from below
-Belaying a much heavier leader
-Belaying a leader where I cannot see her, and significant falls are possible.
-Lowering a climber.
-Belaying a leader where there are long pauses in motion.

In the last case, I may switch back and forth as the need requires.

These are just a few examples that fall outside of my answer at the top of this post. In all these examples, a sensitive belay is not the most important issue.

GO

Maybe you missed this (and all the other) posts?

I answered your question. I gave situations in which it is the best method (IMO), and situations in which it is not the best method.

GO


bill413


Apr 3, 2009, 1:19 PM
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Re: [Johnny_Fang] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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Are the angels belayed?


clausti


Apr 3, 2009, 1:36 PM
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Re: [bill413] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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bill413 wrote:
Are the angels belayed?

palm up or palm down???


justroberto


Apr 3, 2009, 3:10 PM
Post #387 of 387 (1376 views)
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Re: [clausti] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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Well, I think we can all agree that, clearly, this is the safest belay technique.

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