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jt512


Mar 16, 2009, 6:32 PM
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Re: [curt] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
curt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
bill413 wrote:
You must keep a brake hand on the brake rope.
I completely agree.

Then you should start doing it. You have fooled yourself into thinking that you are holding on to the brake side of the rope when you shuffle your brake hand up. You're not. You cannot consistently move your brake hand the rope without anchoring the free end of the rope with your other hand. You are letting go.

Jay

Don't you ever watch the climber when you are belaying? I sure do. This "fraction of a second while you're sliding your hand" stuff is complete bullshit. I can (and routinely do) retighten my grip on the rope long before the rope ever comes tight. Sliding your hand up the rope when belaying simply isn't a problem if you're paying attention.

There isn't a belayer alive who watches his partner 100% of the time. Any belayer who belays in the style described by notapplicable will be letting go with his brake hand (and that's exactly what it is) while not watching his partner on a regular basis. If this supposed belay method becomes popular among n00bs, we're going to see accident rates soar.

Jay

Well, neither you nor I have any data to support our respective positions--thus, we are in the realm of pure speculation. I simply don't think that this is the big deal you are making of it--and I doubt that this technique alone (sliding your belay hand up the rope) is leading to very many accidents, if any.

Curt

Yeah, I agree that we don't have any data, and for that reason the discussion has more-or-less reached a stalemate.

Jay


notapplicable


Mar 16, 2009, 7:56 PM
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Re: [jt512] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
I just don't think that the tighter grip makes a significant difference given the other factors at play including default brake hand and rope orientation.

You are most likely mistaken. Braking force—ie, friction—is directly related to the tension in the rope, which, in turn, is related to the strength of the grip of the brake hand. Your claim, above, boils down to this: that friction is greater with essentially no grip on the rope, due to an extra bend in the rope around the lip of the belay device; compared with a tight grip on the rope, without that extra bend. That is almost certainly incorrect. (Almost) no grip on the rope translates to (almost) no friction, even with the rope making an extra bend around the belay device: no grip = no tension = no friction.

If you get caught off guard for a fraction of a second, and the belayer falls while you are essentially letting go of the rope to reposition your brake hand, your first indication of a fall will be the rope running through your brake hand. There is absolutely no way this is safe, or superior to being caught off guard using the pinch and slide method during the slide "phase" while maintain a firm grip on the rope. In the pinch-and-slide case, tension will build up in the rope; the rope will start to stretch; the rope won't slide through your brake hand, but rather, your brake hand will be pulled toward the device; and, unless you are completely brain-dead, you will react by locking off the device. In contrast, with your method, you will have to catch, and stop, a moving rope. And, until you can produce empirical evidence that you can do that, without wearing a glove, I'm not going to accept you can, and neither should anyone else. You are using a completely non-standard method of belaying: the onus is on you to demonstrate that it is safe.

Jay


Before I get in to the issue friction and reaction time, I think it's worth noting that while top roping and feeding out slack for a lead (which accounts for the bulk of rope movement through any given belay device) this is a nonissue. While top ropeing it would be very difficult to create a high enough impact to cause a loss of control even if I started by holding the rope between my toes with hands at my sides. When paying out slack my grip during the down stroke is just as tight as it is using the P&S method. The only time this is a potential issue is if a LEADING climber were to fall while I am re-adjusting my hand after taking in slack. A movement that happens less infrequently than paying out slack and lasts at most 1 second.

That said, yes my contention is that my guide hand grasping the rope and the rope being bent back over the belay devices imparts enough friction that the rope will begin to stretch (at least a little) before running and provide sufficient warning that I will have more than enough time to close my hand the 2 mm needed to gain total control of the brake side of the rope. Also, think about the motions involved for a moment. When I'm taking up slack I use both hands to pull rope through the device and then lock it down before moving my hand up rope. This cinches the device down against the biner, increasing the potential friction. During the P&S the ropes are pulled parallel and rattles the belay device loose so that it contributes little or nothing to any amount of cumulative friction in the system.

I'm not claiming that there is enough friction in the system that the rope wouldn't run wildly if not grasped by the brake hand but rather that there is so little distance to cover to achieve lock down and more than enough time to cover that distance, that this is a perfectly safe belay technique for a competent belayer. My personal experiences while using this technique (which includes catching surprise falls on short and ragged out gym ropes) tells me that it is more than safe. How I go about providing you with empirical of this I'm not sure. The only thing I can think of is video taping some blindfolded catches. With back ups obviously.Sly


(This post was edited by notapplicable on Mar 16, 2009, 8:41 PM)


notapplicable


Mar 16, 2009, 8:10 PM
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jt512 wrote:
If this supposed belay method becomes popular among n00bs, we're going to see accident rates soar.

Jay

Although I think the wording "soar" might be a bit strong, I generally agree with this. I think new climbers should be taught a method that keeps a totally locked down hand ON THE BRAKE SIDE OF THE ROPE at all times. Once they catch some falls and learn the movements and forces involved with belaying, they can transition to more "advanced" techniques.


Fast forward to the last few seconds of this video and look at this guy catch a fall. If he can catch a fall using that death method, I can damn sure catch falls all day long using mine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHes0dPSonE

Side note: Go on youtube and watch some of the "instructional" belaying videos. I'm pretty sure you'll be a whole lot less concerned about my method.Crazy


notapplicable


Mar 16, 2009, 8:12 PM
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jt512 wrote:
curt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
curt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
bill413 wrote:
You must keep a brake hand on the brake rope.
I completely agree.

Then you should start doing it. You have fooled yourself into thinking that you are holding on to the brake side of the rope when you shuffle your brake hand up. You're not. You cannot consistently move your brake hand the rope without anchoring the free end of the rope with your other hand. You are letting go.

Jay

Don't you ever watch the climber when you are belaying? I sure do. This "fraction of a second while you're sliding your hand" stuff is complete bullshit. I can (and routinely do) retighten my grip on the rope long before the rope ever comes tight. Sliding your hand up the rope when belaying simply isn't a problem if you're paying attention.

There isn't a belayer alive who watches his partner 100% of the time. Any belayer who belays in the style described by notapplicable will be letting go with his brake hand (and that's exactly what it is) while not watching his partner on a regular basis. If this supposed belay method becomes popular among n00bs, we're going to see accident rates soar.

Jay

Well, neither you nor I have any data to support our respective positions--thus, we are in the realm of pure speculation. I simply don't think that this is the big deal you are making of it--and I doubt that this technique alone (sliding your belay hand up the rope) is leading to very many accidents, if any.

Curt

Yeah, I agree that we don't have any data, and for that reason the discussion has more-or-less reached a stalemate.

Jay

This is RC.com. Arguing until we're blue in the face while making zero headway with the opposition is what we do here.


curt


Mar 16, 2009, 8:24 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
jt512 wrote:
curt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
curt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
bill413 wrote:
You must keep a brake hand on the brake rope.
I completely agree.

Then you should start doing it. You have fooled yourself into thinking that you are holding on to the brake side of the rope when you shuffle your brake hand up. You're not. You cannot consistently move your brake hand the rope without anchoring the free end of the rope with your other hand. You are letting go.

Jay

Don't you ever watch the climber when you are belaying? I sure do. This "fraction of a second while you're sliding your hand" stuff is complete bullshit. I can (and routinely do) retighten my grip on the rope long before the rope ever comes tight. Sliding your hand up the rope when belaying simply isn't a problem if you're paying attention.

There isn't a belayer alive who watches his partner 100% of the time. Any belayer who belays in the style described by notapplicable will be letting go with his brake hand (and that's exactly what it is) while not watching his partner on a regular basis. If this supposed belay method becomes popular among n00bs, we're going to see accident rates soar.

Jay

Well, neither you nor I have any data to support our respective positions--thus, we are in the realm of pure speculation. I simply don't think that this is the big deal you are making of it--and I doubt that this technique alone (sliding your belay hand up the rope) is leading to very many accidents, if any.

Curt

Yeah, I agree that we don't have any data, and for that reason the discussion has more-or-less reached a stalemate.

Jay

This is RC.com. Arguing until we're blue in the face while making zero headway with the opposition is what we do here.

And we can accomplish all that while others are merely adding noise.

Curt


LamontagnedeGatineau


Mar 16, 2009, 8:46 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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This discussion seems somewhat disconnected from the reality of any kind of multi-pitch climb. When you are scrunched up in a hole, stuck in a closed corner, lying on a portaledge, belaying someone after having dropped your ATC (yes, that WILL happen one day), or sprained your favorite break hand... you will need to adapt your belaying style to the current situation.

I am convinced that like in so many other real-life climbing situations, there is always a BEST technique. Unfortunately it is always situation dependant. Experienced climbers have many options to choose from - and from these, they choose according to the current external factors. Heck, on an easy climb where speed is of the essence, even the ancient shoulder belay may be the safest alternative because modern belaying techniques will slow down the team... force a bivouac... thunderstorm... etc

Which means that if you want to eventually get into multi-pitch climbing: Practice many belay techniques, left hand blocking, right hand blocking, munter hitch, hand up, hand down, using your figure 8, even the good ol' waist belay, and whatever else may exist in between because: You never know what you could encounter up there, so be ready for anything! Just make sure you know which is your blocking hand!!!

Otherwise, if you only have one technique, what will you do if it does not work in the situation of the moment? Give up???Unsure


reno


Mar 16, 2009, 9:04 PM
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Re: [jt512] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
curt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
curt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
bill413 wrote:
You must keep a brake hand on the brake rope.
I completely agree.

Then you should start doing it. You have fooled yourself into thinking that you are holding on to the brake side of the rope when you shuffle your brake hand up. You're not. You cannot consistently move your brake hand the rope without anchoring the free end of the rope with your other hand. You are letting go.

Jay

Don't you ever watch the climber when you are belaying? I sure do. This "fraction of a second while you're sliding your hand" stuff is complete bullshit. I can (and routinely do) retighten my grip on the rope long before the rope ever comes tight. Sliding your hand up the rope when belaying simply isn't a problem if you're paying attention.

There isn't a belayer alive who watches his partner 100% of the time. Any belayer who belays in the style described by notapplicable will be letting go with his brake hand (and that's exactly what it is) while not watching his partner on a regular basis. If this supposed belay method becomes popular among n00bs, we're going to see accident rates soar.

Jay

Well, neither you nor I have any data to support our respective positions--thus, we are in the realm of pure speculation. I simply don't think that this is the big deal you are making of it--and I doubt that this technique alone (sliding your belay hand up the rope) is leading to very many accidents, if any.

Curt

Yeah, I agree that we don't have any data, and for that reason the discussion has more-or-less reached a stalemate.

Jay

jt512 admits that his position has no supporting data.

16 March 2009, 1932 hours. Note this for the record. It'll probably never happen again.

Belay techniques, like many things in climbing (well, many things in climbing other than single pitch spurt cragging) require adaptability. I've belayed, and know many people who have belayed, using different "techniques" on the same route, and indeed on the same pitch.

If I can see my partner, my technique changes slightly from those times I can't see -- but can still HEAR -- my partner. And THOSE times are slightly different from the times I can neither see nor hear my partner.

And THOSE times differ if my partner is on lead vs. a second, on gear vs. bolts, on rock vs. ice... the list is endless.

To posit that any single technique is "teh Bestest evah!" for all situations is to be ignorant of the dynamics of various aspects of climbing.


jt512


Mar 16, 2009, 10:16 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
jt512 wrote:
If this supposed belay method becomes popular among n00bs, we're going to see accident rates soar.

Jay

Although I think the wording "soar" might be a bit strong, I generally agree with this. I think new climbers should be taught a method that keeps a totally locked down hand ON THE BRAKE SIDE OF THE ROPE at all times. Once they catch some falls and learn the movements and forces involved with belaying, they can transition to more "advanced" techniques.


Fast forward to the last few seconds of this video and look at this guy catch a fall. If he can catch a fall using that death method, I can damn sure catch falls all day long using mine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHes0dPSonE

No. if he can catch a fall using that method, I can, because he's using the pinch-and-slide method. When he catches the fall, he's belaying pretty much the way I do: he keeps the ropes 90 degrees apart, by default, locking off only when the climber falls.

In reply to:
Side note: Go on youtube and watch some of the "instructional" belaying videos. I'm pretty sure you'll be a whole lot less concerned about my method.Crazy

I don't have to watch YouTube to watch bad belaying. I climb at Rockreation–West L.A.

Jay


notapplicable


Mar 16, 2009, 10:31 PM
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Re: [LamontagnedeGatineau] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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LamontagnedeGatineau wrote:
This discussion seems somewhat disconnected from the reality of any kind of multi-pitch climb. When you are scrunched up in a hole, stuck in a closed corner, lying on a portaledge, belaying someone after having dropped your ATC (yes, that WILL happen one day), or sprained your favorite break hand... you will need to adapt your belaying style to the current situation.

I am convinced that like in so many other real-life climbing situations, there is always a BEST technique. Unfortunately it is always situation dependant. Experienced climbers have many options to choose from - and from these, they choose according to the current external factors. Heck, on an easy climb where speed is of the essence, even the ancient shoulder belay may be the safest alternative because modern belaying techniques will slow down the team... force a bivouac... thunderstorm... etc

Which means that if you want to eventually get into multi-pitch climbing: Practice many belay techniques, left hand blocking, right hand blocking, munter hitch, hand up, hand down, using your figure 8, even the good ol' waist belay, and whatever else may exist in between because: You never know what you could encounter up there, so be ready for anything! Just make sure you know which is your blocking hand!!!

Otherwise, if you only have one technique, what will you do if it does not work in the situation of the moment? Give up???Unsure

While your 100% correct, your kinda preachin to the choir on this one. More than once that I've thrown the rope around the body on a slab route, while a perfectly good belay device hung from my harness.

We were just focusing in on single pitch cragging for the sake of simplicity and clarity while analysing a specific style of belaying.


notapplicable


Mar 16, 2009, 11:04 PM
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jt512 wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
jt512 wrote:
If this supposed belay method becomes popular among n00bs, we're going to see accident rates soar.

Jay

Although I think the wording "soar" might be a bit strong, I generally agree with this. I think new climbers should be taught a method that keeps a totally locked down hand ON THE BRAKE SIDE OF THE ROPE at all times. Once they catch some falls and learn the movements and forces involved with belaying, they can transition to more "advanced" techniques.


Fast forward to the last few seconds of this video and look at this guy catch a fall. If he can catch a fall using that death method, I can damn sure catch falls all day long using mine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHes0dPSonE

No. if he can catch a fall using that method, I can, because he's using the pinch-and-slide method. When he catches the fall, he's belaying pretty much the way I do: he keeps the ropes 90 degrees apart, by default, locking off only when the climber falls.

I don't know man, obviously I don't use the P&S so I'm not the best suited to speak on the matter but his belaying looks really sloppy for someone using a "passive" belay device. His default hand position seems to be more like 45 degrees, they're also pretty close to the belay device and shuffling back and forth a lot. It makes me nervous to watch but he caught the fall so perhaps appearances are deceiving.


jt512


Mar 17, 2009, 12:59 AM
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notapplicable wrote:
jt512 wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
jt512 wrote:
If this supposed belay method becomes popular among n00bs, we're going to see accident rates soar.

Jay

Although I think the wording "soar" might be a bit strong, I generally agree with this. I think new climbers should be taught a method that keeps a totally locked down hand ON THE BRAKE SIDE OF THE ROPE at all times. Once they catch some falls and learn the movements and forces involved with belaying, they can transition to more "advanced" techniques.


Fast forward to the last few seconds of this video and look at this guy catch a fall. If he can catch a fall using that death method, I can damn sure catch falls all day long using mine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHes0dPSonE

No. if he can catch a fall using that method, I can, because he's using the pinch-and-slide method. When he catches the fall, he's belaying pretty much the way I do: he keeps the ropes 90 degrees apart, by default, locking off only when the climber falls.

I don't know man, obviously I don't use the P&S so I'm not the best suited to speak on the matter but his belaying looks really sloppy for someone using a "passive" belay device. His default hand position seems to be more like 45 degrees, they're also pretty close to the belay device and shuffling back and forth a lot. It makes me nervous to watch but he caught the fall so perhaps appearances are deceiving.

When he's in the little picture in the corner of the frame (what's that called?) he's keeping the ropes at 45 degrees. That's ok if there is a lot of friction. When he's in the main frame toward the end of the video, he's keeping the ropes 90 degrees apart, a good angle for typical, modern ropes on the skinny side. Climbers in the U.S. been taught to belay this way safely for decades. It is only in recent years that it has become more common to teach beginners to belay with the rope locked off all the time.

With sufficient practice, even a rank beginner can belay safely using the pinch and slide technique. However, the commercial gym and its typical 10-minute belay lesson having become the normal way for new climbers to learn to belay has necessitated that new climbers be taught a locked-off-by-default method of belaying. Such methods are not inherently safer, only easier to teach in 10 minutes, and they make it difficult for the belayer to promptly respond to the climber's needs in terms of the amount of rope out and the possible need to dynamically belay or yard rope in to prevent a ground or ledge fall.

Your method is the worst of all worlds. You're locked off by default, so you can't respond quickly, plus a significant percentage of the time you don't even have a grip on the rope with your brake hand.

Jay


Toast_in_the_Machine


Mar 17, 2009, 6:27 AM
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jt512 wrote:
If this supposed belay method becomes popular among n00bs, we're going to see accident rates soar.

Jay

Except that, to my understanding, it isn't us n00bs with the eagerness of a puppy watching every second with hyper awareness, but the half-expert with the casualness of "been there / done that" that is the source of most accidents.


dingus


Mar 17, 2009, 7:25 AM
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Sliding the brake hand up the rope for a conventional tube-style palm down belay is mostly inconsequential. The situation J conjurs of the rope running through the device is far less likely than he suggests.

Most times the tube device will lock the rope with very little or no tension on the brake side. I know this because I have caught sucn falls.

Not once, not ONCE in more than 30 years of climbing have I had a lead rope slip through the belay device in the manner J suggests.

Now using a tube-style device PALMS UP and letting go with the brake hand... that's an entirely different prospect.

But palm down? In the palm down config the belay device is mostly locked, most of the time, sliding hand or not. That's sorta the FRICKING POINT with having the frickin PALM DOWN to begin with.

Its cool to take sport belay techniques into trad. But there are limitations to every belay technique. Sitting on some ledge 5 pitches up with the leader out of sight and out of hearing... NO PLACE FOR SPORT BELAYS.

DMT


dingus


Mar 17, 2009, 7:29 AM
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jt512 wrote:
Your method is the worst of all worlds. You're locked off by default, so you can't respond quickly, plus a significant percentage of the time you don't even have a grip on the rope with your brake hand.

Jay

First you say its locked off. Then you pretend it isn't. You're blowing smoke on your old bugaboo here J. Its bullshit. Your palm up V belay works fine at crags where the climbers can see and hear one another.... for this precious REACTION you seem to think is so important.

A palm down belay IS locked, most of the time.... THAT'S THE POINT. The grip of the brake hand is a minor component to the initial stopping power of this belay technique.

A sport belay is not a panacea.

DMT


GeneralZon


Mar 17, 2009, 8:08 AM
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When he's in the little picture in the corner of the frame (what's that called?)

Picture in Picture.


jt512


Mar 17, 2009, 10:54 AM
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dingus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Your method is the worst of all worlds. You're locked off by default, so you can't respond quickly, plus a significant percentage of the time you don't even have a grip on the rope with your brake hand.

Jay

First you say its locked off. Then you pretend it isn't. You're blowing smoke on your old bugaboo here J. Its bullshit.


Calm down and try thinking about what I wrote. I did not write a contradiction.

In reply to:
Your palm up V belay [sic] works fine at crags where the climbers can see and hear one another.... for this precious REACTION you seem to think is so important.

It works well on routes where you can't see or hear your partner, too. Friction plus rope stretch give the belayer time to lock off. Try it.

In reply to:
A palm down belay IS locked, most of the time.... THAT'S THE POINT.

And most of the time it's a stupid point. Do you drive with your foot on the brake in case you need to stop? No. You put your foot on the brake only when you need to stop. When you belay, if you're locked off by default, you can't be as responsive with the rope to the climbers movements as you can when you have the rope in a neutral position. When starting from a locked off position you can't as effectively (or at all) give a dynamic belay to lengthen a fall or yard in slack to shorten a fall.

Jay


dingus


Mar 17, 2009, 11:06 AM
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jt512 wrote:
Friction plus rope stretch give the belayer time to lock off. Try it.

Dude I use 'your' method frequently. I use it when reaction is critical. I use it if I think the leader has a good chance of pitching off. I use it if there are objective hazards.

What I don't do is pretend it is the one size fits all scenarios. I know better.


In reply to:
In reply to:
A palm down belay IS locked, most of the time.... THAT'S THE POINT.

And most of the time it's a stupid point.

Wrong. Most of the time, in TRAD, the belayer isn't doing anything. She's not feeding in. She's not paying out. She's just sitting or standing there, most of the time, doing nothing. For long periods of time, in a lot of trad, the belayer is waiting for the leader to do something, anything. There are many reasons to be locked off and this is one of them.

In reply to:
Do you drive with your foot on the brake in case you need to stop? No.

Ever driven the hills of San Fran? Ever been 4wding? Brake and gas pedal, at once, you betchya.

In reply to:
You put your foot on the brake only when you need to stop. When you belay, if you're locked off by default, you can't be as responsive with the rope to the climbers movements as you can when you have the rope in a neutral position.

Ah the illusive 'reaction' time. This precious reaction time is irrelevant for most trad, most of the time.

In reply to:
When starting from a locked off position you can't as effectively (or at all) give a dynamic belay to lengthen a fall or yard in slack to shorten a fall.

Jay

So what? This is a sport climber's perspective. What is a yard worth of slack to the leader you can't see or hear? What is a yard of slack to the leader standing on a ledge taking 12 minutes to fiddle in a nut? What is a yard of slack in a 17 hour, 15 pitch climb?

I appreciate your challenging views. But far too often you present these ideas to noobs as 'the decision has been made'hen in fact its NOTHING but your opinion, based upon sport climbing needs and applied inappropriately in many cases, to trad.

The hands up methods have their place. So too do the locked off ones. Any person who has ever spent any time on a big wall belay will know this.

I embrace your ideas where appropriate. As I've told you, in the past you have helped make me aware of improvements and I've invested in those improvements. Your palm up V belay technique is one of these.

But I will doggedly stick to the notion that for the vast majority of trad the palm down locked off position is safer and the more responsible choicde.

DMT


notapplicable


Mar 17, 2009, 11:13 AM
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Toast_in_the_Machine wrote:
jt512 wrote:
If this supposed belay method becomes popular among n00bs, we're going to see accident rates soar.

Jay

Except that, to my understanding, it isn't us n00bs with the eagerness of a puppy watching every second with hyper awareness, but the half-expert with the casualness of "been there / done that" that is the source of most accidents.

What you say is true when looking at all climbing related accidents combined. If you isolate the botched belays and look at them separately, I'm confident you would see that the less experienced belayers are dropping the majority of climbers.

This is just a hunch though, I'd be interested to see some data.


justroberto


Mar 17, 2009, 11:56 AM
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jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Your palm up V belay [sic] works fine at crags where the climbers can see and hear one another.... for this precious REACTION you seem to think is so important.

It works well on routes where you can't see or hear your partner, too. Friction plus rope stretch give the belayer time to lock off. Try it

Bet I can close my fist faster than you can lock off.

Try it.


notapplicable


Mar 17, 2009, 12:10 PM
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jt512 wrote:
When he's in the little picture in the corner of the frame (what's that called?) he's keeping the ropes at 45 degrees. That's ok if there is a lot of friction. When he's in the main frame toward the end of the video, he's keeping the ropes 90 degrees apart, a good angle for typical, modern ropes on the skinny side.

There are two belayers in the video. The guys belaying in full frame looks fine. The guy in picture in picture has his hands close together, close to the belay device and well above the belay device. He's the one that makes me nervous. Not so much because an experienced belayer can't do that safely but because a new belayer will most certainly get a hand sucked in to the belay device. Your the one who made the observation that the brake hand is drawn towards the device in a fall. Hell, I'm sure we've all seen people get a hand pinched while just lowering a climber, I know I have. I don't think what the second guy is doing is safe for a new belayer.


jt512 wrote:
dingus wrote:
A palm down belay IS locked, most of the time.... THAT'S THE POINT.

And most of the time it's a stupid point...When you belay, if you're locked off by default, you can't be as responsive with the rope to the climbers movements as you can when you have the rope in a neutral position. When starting from a locked off position you can't as effectively (or at all) give a dynamic belay to lengthen a fall or yard in slack to shorten a fall.

Jay


I agree with you on this. My method does not allow for the same degree of swift and subtle rope movement as the P&S. For me thats a relative nonissue though, as I spend the bulk of my time on gear routes and sub 5.11 sport climbs. I've never said that my method is more efficient or is universally applicable. My only claim is that it's safe for an experienced belayer and works for me the bulk of the time.


(This post was edited by notapplicable on Mar 17, 2009, 12:17 PM)


onceahardman


Mar 17, 2009, 12:48 PM
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In reply to:
Bet I can close my fist faster than you can lock off.

Try it.

This is correct.


reno


Mar 17, 2009, 12:53 PM
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I'm reminded of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid standing at the top of a cliff, looking down, and Sundance saying he can't swim.


jt512


Mar 17, 2009, 1:48 PM
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justroberto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Your palm up V belay [sic] works fine at crags where the climbers can see and hear one another.... for this precious REACTION you seem to think is so important.

It works well on routes where you can't see or hear your partner, too. Friction plus rope stretch give the belayer time to lock off. Try it

Bet I can close my fist faster than you can lock off.

I'm sure you can, but that isn't the issue. You have to grab onto a running rope. I don't.

Jay


jt512


Mar 17, 2009, 1:51 PM
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notapplicable wrote:
jt512 wrote:
When he's in the little picture in the corner of the frame (what's that called?) he's keeping the ropes at 45 degrees. That's ok if there is a lot of friction. When he's in the main frame toward the end of the video, he's keeping the ropes 90 degrees apart, a good angle for typical, modern ropes on the skinny side.

There are two belayers in the video. The guys belaying in full frame looks fine. The guy in picture in picture has his hands close together, close to the belay device and well above the belay device. He's the one that makes me nervous. Not so much because an experienced belayer can't do that safely but because a new belayer will most certainly get a hand sucked in to the belay device. Your the one who made the observation that the brake hand is drawn towards the device in a fall. Hell, I'm sure we've all seen people get a hand pinched while just lowering a climber, I know I have. I don't think what the second guy is doing is safe for a new belayer.


jt512 wrote:
dingus wrote:
A palm down belay IS locked, most of the time.... THAT'S THE POINT.

And most of the time it's a stupid point...When you belay, if you're locked off by default, you can't be as responsive with the rope to the climbers movements as you can when you have the rope in a neutral position. When starting from a locked off position you can't as effectively (or at all) give a dynamic belay to lengthen a fall or yard in slack to shorten a fall.

Jay


I agree with you on this. My method does not allow for the same degree of swift and subtle rope movement as the P&S.

Thank you. That is an important admission.

Jay


onceahardman


Mar 17, 2009, 2:15 PM
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jt512 wrote:
justroberto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Your palm up V belay [sic] works fine at crags where the climbers can see and hear one another.... for this precious REACTION you seem to think is so important.

It works well on routes where you can't see or hear your partner, too. Friction plus rope stretch give the belayer time to lock off. Try it

Bet I can close my fist faster than you can lock off.

I'm sure you can.

Jay

Thank you. That is an important admission.

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