Forums: Climbing Information: Technique & Training:
Safest belay technique
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for Technique & Training

Premier Sponsor:

 
First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... 16 Next page Last page  View All


jt512


Mar 17, 2009, 2:17 PM
Post #76 of 387 (2331 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21887

Re: [onceahardman] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

onceahardman wrote:
jt512 wrote:
justroberto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Your palm up V belay [sic] works fine at crags where the climbers can see and hear one another.... for this precious REACTION you seem to think is so important.

It works well on routes where you can't see or hear your partner, too. Friction plus rope stretch give the belayer time to lock off. Try it

Bet I can close my fist faster than you can lock off.

I'm sure you can.

Jay

Thank you. That is an important admission.

No, actually, it's not.

Jay


notapplicable


Mar 17, 2009, 2:22 PM
Post #77 of 387 (2327 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17752

Re: [jt512] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
jt512 wrote:
dingus wrote:
A palm down belay IS locked, most of the time.... THAT'S THE POINT.

And most of the time it's a stupid point...When you belay, if you're locked off by default, you can't be as responsive with the rope to the climbers movements as you can when you have the rope in a neutral position. When starting from a locked off position you can't as effectively (or at all) give a dynamic belay to lengthen a fall or yard in slack to shorten a fall.

Jay


I agree with you on this. My method does not allow for the same degree of swift and subtle rope movement as the P&S.

Thank you. That is an important admission.

Jay

It's a limitation inherent to the system. I consider it to be manageable but clearly it's not for everyone.


edit: my spelling is terrible


(This post was edited by notapplicable on Mar 17, 2009, 2:23 PM)


curt


Mar 17, 2009, 2:23 PM
Post #78 of 387 (2323 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 18226

Re: [jt512] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
justroberto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Your palm up V belay [sic] works fine at crags where the climbers can see and hear one another.... for this precious REACTION you seem to think is so important.

It works well on routes where you can't see or hear your partner, too. Friction plus rope stretch give the belayer time to lock off. Try it

Bet I can close my fist faster than you can lock off.

I'm sure you can, but that isn't the issue. You have to grab onto a running rope. I don't.

Jay

No, Jay. You do not have to grab onto a running rope--not at least in the hundreds if not thousands of times I have done this.

Curt


jt512


Mar 17, 2009, 2:30 PM
Post #79 of 387 (2319 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21887

Re: [curt] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

curt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
justroberto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Your palm up V belay [sic] works fine at crags where the climbers can see and hear one another.... for this precious REACTION you seem to think is so important.

It works well on routes where you can't see or hear your partner, too. Friction plus rope stretch give the belayer time to lock off. Try it

Bet I can close my fist faster than you can lock off.

I'm sure you can, but that isn't the issue. You have to grab onto a running rope. I don't.

Jay

No, Jay. You do not have to grab onto a running rope--not at least in the hundreds if not thousands of times I have done this.

Curt

You've caught hundreds to thousands of falls while not holding on with your brake hand?

Jay


jt512


Mar 17, 2009, 2:33 PM
Post #80 of 387 (2316 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21887

Re: [jt512] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

This is pretty cool. We are actually witnessing the beginning of the acceptance of a belay technique that inherently involves the repeated violation of the one rule that every new belayer has been taught for generations: never let go with your brake hand.

Way to go rockclimbing.com!

Jay


justroberto


Mar 17, 2009, 2:50 PM
Post #81 of 387 (2306 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 21, 2006
Posts: 1876

Re: [jt512] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
This is pretty cool. We are actually witnessing the beginning of the acceptance of a belay technique that inherently involves the repeated violation of the one rule that every new belayer has been taught for generations: never let go with your brake hand.

Way to go rockclimbing.com!

Jay
For generations? Really?

You realize that you have to slide your brake hand down the rope in a hip belay, right?


jt512


Mar 17, 2009, 2:53 PM
Post #82 of 387 (2301 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21887

Re: [justroberto] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

justroberto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
This is pretty cool. We are actually witnessing the beginning of the acceptance of a belay technique that inherently involves the repeated violation of the one rule that every new belayer has been taught for generations: never let go with your brake hand.

Way to go rockclimbing.com!

Jay
For generations? Really?

You realize that you have to slide your brake hand down the rope in a hip belay, right?

You realize that when you slide your brake hand down the rope in a hip belay, and the pinch-and-slide, but not when you shuffle your hand up, which point I have made 150,000 times in the last three days, you have not let go with your brake hand.

Jay


curt


Mar 17, 2009, 3:13 PM
Post #83 of 387 (2285 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 18226

Re: [jt512] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
curt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
justroberto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Your palm up V belay [sic] works fine at crags where the climbers can see and hear one another.... for this precious REACTION you seem to think is so important.

It works well on routes where you can't see or hear your partner, too. Friction plus rope stretch give the belayer time to lock off. Try it

Bet I can close my fist faster than you can lock off.

I'm sure you can, but that isn't the issue. You have to grab onto a running rope. I don't.

Jay

No, Jay. You do not have to grab onto a running rope--not at least in the hundreds if not thousands of times I have done this.

Curt

You've caught hundreds to thousands of falls while not holding on with your brake hand?

Jay

No. I do catch the falls with my brake hand--but, of course you knew that.

Curt


reno


Mar 17, 2009, 3:16 PM
Post #84 of 387 (2281 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 18283

Re: [jt512] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post




jt512


Mar 17, 2009, 3:30 PM
Post #85 of 387 (2268 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21887

Re: [reno] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

reno wrote:

No, Reno. Holding on with your brake hand letting go with it are not splitting hairs. If you think they are, you are incompetent.

Jay


jt512


Mar 17, 2009, 3:31 PM
Post #86 of 387 (2267 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21887

Re: [curt] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

curt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
curt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
justroberto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Your palm up V belay [sic] works fine at crags where the climbers can see and hear one another.... for this precious REACTION you seem to think is so important.

It works well on routes where you can't see or hear your partner, too. Friction plus rope stretch give the belayer time to lock off. Try it

Bet I can close my fist faster than you can lock off.

I'm sure you can, but that isn't the issue. You have to grab onto a running rope. I don't.

Jay

No, Jay. You do not have to grab onto a running rope--not at least in the hundreds if not thousands of times I have done this.

Curt

You've caught hundreds to thousands of falls while not holding on with your brake hand?

Jay

No. I do catch the falls with my brake hand--but, of course you knew that.

Curt

Straw man.


curt


Mar 17, 2009, 3:37 PM
Post #87 of 387 (2261 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 18226

Re: [jt512] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
curt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
curt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
justroberto wrote:
jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Your palm up V belay [sic] works fine at crags where the climbers can see and hear one another.... for this precious REACTION you seem to think is so important.

It works well on routes where you can't see or hear your partner, too. Friction plus rope stretch give the belayer time to lock off. Try it

Bet I can close my fist faster than you can lock off.

I'm sure you can, but that isn't the issue. You have to grab onto a running rope. I don't.

Jay

No, Jay. You do not have to grab onto a running rope--not at least in the hundreds if not thousands of times I have done this.

Curt

You've caught hundreds to thousands of falls while not holding on with your brake hand?

Jay

No. I do catch the falls with my brake hand--but, of course you knew that.

Curt

Straw man.

Quite an ironic reply, considering your last one.

Curt


reno


Mar 17, 2009, 3:38 PM
Post #88 of 387 (2258 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 18283

Re: [jt512] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
No, Reno. Holding on with your brake hand letting go with it are not splitting hairs. If you think they are, you are incompetent.

Jay, you're a funny guy. Ever consider comedy as a career?

I'm this website's champ at splitting hairs, and even *I* can't get past how pedantic you're being.

Several people here have made astute, informed, and correct observations, but you've ignored them all because they don't coalesce 100% with your position.

Here's a tip: You are not the world's foremost expert in climbing techniques.


notapplicable


Mar 17, 2009, 3:46 PM
Post #89 of 387 (2255 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17752

Re: [jt512] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
This is pretty cool. We are actually witnessing the beginning of the acceptance of a belay technique that inherently involves the repeated violation of the one rule that every new belayer has been taught for generations: never let go with your brake hand.

Way to go rockclimbing.com!

Jay

Alright alright alright, keep your voice down man!!

Look fellas, I think were gonna have to bring Jay in on this or he's gonna ruin everything.

Jay, what you are witnessing is what is known as TNCI09 (The nOOb Culling Initiative of 2009). This sport is growing at an uncontrolled rate and the crags are being overrun. The consensus is that a dramatic rise in gumby deaths is the only hope for a long term solution and this new belay method gets them to do away with one another while reducing backlash against the existing community.

You don't have to work with us on this but we're counting on your silence.


jt512


Mar 17, 2009, 4:15 PM
Post #90 of 387 (2261 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21887

Re: [reno] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

reno wrote:
jt512 wrote:
No, Reno. Holding on with your brake hand letting go with it are not splitting hairs. If you think they are, you are incompetent.

Jay, you're a funny guy. Ever consider comedy as a career?

I'm this website's champ at splitting hairs, and even *I* can't get past how pedantic you're being.

Reno, if you think that the difference between shuffling your brake hand up the rope and pinching the brake side of the rope with your guide hand so that you don't have to shuffle it up the rope is a case of splitting hairs, then you are simply ignorant. The reason that the pinch and slide method was invented was specifically to avoid that very shuffle maneuver, which necessitates intermittently releasing your the grip on the rope.

If it is true that letting go of the rope with the brake hand is actually safe, then that would overturn one of the most fundamental rules that climbers have been taught for generations. That's a very big claim for the climbing game, and hence requires very good evidence. The proponents of this new Really-It's-OK-To-Release-The-Grip-With-The-Belay-Hand-After-All-(In-Fact-It's-Even-Safer-Than-The-Way-American-Climbers-Have-Been-Belaying-For-Decades) technique have no objective evidence that it's true. That leaves the issue in an empirical stalemate (because there's really no evidence for the other side, either), but not a practical stalemate. If you want to overturn the most fundamental rule in belaying, the onus is on you to prove that you're right.

Jay


jt512


Mar 17, 2009, 4:17 PM
Post #91 of 387 (2260 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21887

Re: [notapplicable] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

notapplicable wrote:
jt512 wrote:
This is pretty cool. We are actually witnessing the beginning of the acceptance of a belay technique that inherently involves the repeated violation of the one rule that every new belayer has been taught for generations: never let go with your brake hand.

Way to go rockclimbing.com!

Jay

Alright alright alright, keep your voice down man!!

Look fellas, I think were gonna have to bring Jay in on this or he's gonna ruin everything.

Jay, what you are witnessing is what is known as TNCI09 (The nOOb Culling Initiative of 2009). This sport is growing at an uncontrolled rate and the crags are being overrun. The consensus is that a dramatic rise in gumby deaths is the only hope for a long term solution and this new belay method gets them to do away with one another while reducing backlash against the existing community.

Oh. In that case, never mind.

Jay


dingus


Mar 17, 2009, 4:39 PM
Post #92 of 387 (2253 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17361

Re: [jt512] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I'm going to continue using a palm down belay in my trad climbing. Nothing you've ever said on the subject has correlated 100% to the reality of my climbing. Of course I'll continue to use the palm up method too. Often I switch back and forth several times in a pitch of belaying, depending upon context.

Palm down I will continue to slide my brake hand along the rope to reposition it. Nothing you've said about ropes zipping through belay devices bears any resemblance to what I've seen and done in 30 plus years of climbing.

Palm up, no grip on the rope - yes I can see that is a problem. They go hand in hand as it were, yuk yuk.

'Safest belay technique' is clearly situational and no one technique will solve all problems.

Interesting discussion with throught provoking points, as always.

DMT


curt


Mar 17, 2009, 4:48 PM
Post #93 of 387 (2250 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 18226

Re: [dingus] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

dingus wrote:
...Palm down I will continue to slide my brake hand along the rope to reposition it. Nothing you've said about ropes zipping through belay devices bears any resemblance to what I've seen and done in 30 plus years of climbing...

Nor does is bear any resemblance to reality.

Curt


reno


Mar 17, 2009, 5:02 PM
Post #94 of 387 (2244 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 18283

Re: [jt512] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
Reno, if you think that the difference between shuffling your brake hand up the rope and pinching the brake side of the rope with your guide hand so that you don't have to shuffle it up the rope is a case of splitting hairs, then you are simply ignorant.

Ah yes... the "If you don't agree with me, it's because you're a fucking retard" reply.

Good talking to ya, Jay. Hope you're well. Many happy climbs.


jt512


Mar 17, 2009, 5:52 PM
Post #95 of 387 (2231 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21887

Re: [curt] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

curt wrote:
dingus wrote:
...Palm down I will continue to slide my brake hand along the rope to reposition it. Nothing you've said about ropes zipping through belay devices bears any resemblance to what I've seen and done in 30 plus years of climbing...

Nor does is bear any resemblance to reality.

Curt

Thanks for correcting my delusional belief that you're supposed to always maintain a grip with your brake hand.

Jay


onceahardman


Mar 17, 2009, 5:54 PM
Post #96 of 387 (2230 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 3, 2007
Posts: 2459

Re: [jt512] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I submit that sliding a loosened grip along the rope is different than "breaking the most fundamental rule in belaying."

A loosened grip is still receiving tactile information from the rope. Providing the belayer is paying attention, and managing the rope well, There is plenty of time to close your fist, which as you have admitted, is faster than locking off. I've caught my share of unseen falls this way, sans problems.

The most important rules in belaying are Pay Attention, and Don't Be an Idiot.

I've climbed with your ilk before. "Belay MY way", "Anchor MY way", "You are doing it all wrong"...etc. No Fun.

I don't climb with that type very much any more. I've had my share of disagreements with curt around here, but it's pretty easy to see I'd have a lot more fun with him, and probably get more pitches done, secondary to not getting analysis paralysis at every anchor.


curt


Mar 17, 2009, 5:59 PM
Post #97 of 387 (2223 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 18226

Re: [onceahardman] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

onceahardman wrote:
I submit that sliding a loosened grip along the rope is different than "breaking the most fundamental rule in belaying."

A loosened grip is still receiving tactile information from the rope. Providing the belayer is paying attention, and managing the rope well, There is plenty of time to close your fist, which as you have admitted, is faster than locking off. I've caught my share of unseen falls this way, sans problems.

I think it's fairly clear that everyone except Jay understands this.

Curt


jt512


Mar 17, 2009, 6:40 PM
Post #98 of 387 (2211 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21887

Re: [onceahardman] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

onceahardman wrote:
I submit that sliding a loosened grip along the rope is different than "breaking the most fundamental rule in belaying."

What I submit is that you're not just loosening your grip. You're not gripping at all. I submit that there is a difference between having your hand around the rope and actually gripping it.

What you guys are suggesting is so fundamentally wrong that I can't even believe that we are having this conversation.

Jay


jt512


Mar 17, 2009, 6:45 PM
Post #99 of 387 (2206 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21887

Re: [curt] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

curt wrote:
onceahardman wrote:
I submit that sliding a loosened grip along the rope is different than "breaking the most fundamental rule in belaying."

A loosened grip is still receiving tactile information from the rope. Providing the belayer is paying attention, and managing the rope well, There is plenty of time to close your fist, which as you have admitted, is faster than locking off. I've caught my share of unseen falls this way, sans problems.

I think it's fairly clear that everyone except Jay understands this.

Curt

Yeah, me and every other American climber who was taught the pinch-and-slide method, and to whom it was explained that the reason for pinching the rope was precisely to avoid the very shuffling maneuver you guys are claiming is not only safe, but actually safer than the method that was taught to avoid it.

Jay


dingus


Mar 17, 2009, 6:49 PM
Post #100 of 387 (2321 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17361

Re: [jt512] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I think most experienced climbers slide their brake hand up and down the rope without using the other hand, from time to time if not more often.

As in the vast majority, sport climbers included. Any visit to the locak crags will confirm this.

It is standard operating procedure, text book noob admonishments notwithstanding.

DMT

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... 16 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Climbing Information : Technique & Training

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook