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climbingam


Mar 19, 2009, 5:46 PM
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Re: [DexterRutecki] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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In reply to:
please remind me, what page in Freedom is your belay technique on?

If I remember correctly every drawn picture has the person either belaying in this way or indeterminably. BTW- also I think they may be back-clipped in every drawing as well.

I'm a noob, though climbing longer then you, regardless, even as the original re-starter of this new thread of flame (no hard feelings nonapplicable :) ) I think you and I both need to STFU and listen to what our betters have to say.


curt


Mar 19, 2009, 5:51 PM
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Re: [DexterRutecki] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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DexterRutecki wrote:
curt wrote:
Good thinking. I'd probably drop you. But, it would be on purpose--for being an irritating and clueless Gumby.

Curt

You really prove your point quite well by stating you'd drop a total stranger on purpose (last time I checked the results of this can be quite bad), and resorting to name calling because I said I wouldn't let someone belay me who was using a very non-standard belay technique.

You'll be fine. I'm sure you will be wearing a helmet.

"DexterRutecki wrote:
"You're right though, I should make the effort to be less of a "gumby" - please remind me, what page in Freedom is your belay technique on? or in any book, ever published that mentions climbing?

I haven't written it yet. Look, you've climbed for 8 months. That means you basically "know" absolutely nothing. There isn't necessarily any shame in that, but why you want to demonstrate your ignorance over and over again on a fairly popular website is a bit puzzling. Proper belay techniques (as with most things in climbing) are situational in nature as opposed to being absolute and there are many perfectly fine ways to belay, despite what some retard may have told you or what you may have read in some book.

By all means, belay any way that you feel comfortable, I certainly don't care--particularly since (as you have already pointed out) we will never climb together. However, when you suggest that the way I belay is unsafe, you're simply talking out your ass.

You're probably a shitty engineer too.

Curt


notapplicable


Mar 19, 2009, 6:05 PM
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Re: [climbingam] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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climbingam wrote:
In reply to:
please remind me, what page in Freedom is your belay technique on?

If I remember correctly every drawn picture has the person either belaying in this way or indeterminably. BTW- also I think they may be back-clipped in every drawing as well.

I'm a noob, though climbing longer then you, regardless, even as the original re-starter of this new thread of flame (no hard feelings nonapplicable :) ) I think you and I both need to STFU and listen to what our betters have to say.

Yeah I went back and made a correction in that post yesterday after realizing my error, didn't mean to step on any toes. This exact topic was being discussed a day earlier by JT512 and myself in a thread in the Beginners forum and I had them mixed up. http://www.rockclimbing.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

After I saw this one I decided to take up the conversation here because the beginners forum really isn't the place to be encouraging this method of belaying.


DexterRutecki


Mar 19, 2009, 7:13 PM
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Re: [curt] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
You're probably a shitty engineer too.

Curt

Insults - the next best thing to a sound argument.


curt


Mar 19, 2009, 7:27 PM
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Re: [DexterRutecki] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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DexterRutecki wrote:
curt wrote:
You're probably a shitty engineer too.

Curt

Insults - the next best thing to a sound argument.


Thomas Jefferson wrote:
Ridicule is the only weapon that can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.


Come back when you actually have something to contribute--like when you actually know anything. Until then, STFU n00b.

Curt


jt512


Mar 19, 2009, 7:32 PM
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Re: [onceahardman] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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onceahardman wrote:
I'm not speaking for either curt or dingus, but my impressions of this thread so far are:

-Older, experienced climbers like me don't like being told our belay method is "incompetant, unsafe, ignorant", or any other such adjectives, especially without any objective support, and with considerable anecdotal support of their effectiveness.

Whether you like it or not has no relation to its truth value.

In reply to:
-Older, experienced trad climbers have generally faced more adversity than young sporties. If I drop my belay/rappel device, or leave it at home, I can still safely go climbing. I learned to climb with less equipment, and can still do so when necessary.

Which is completely irrelevant to whether your let-go-with-the-brake-hand technique is safe. Since the technique not only flies in the face of how climbers have been taught to belay for generations, common sense, and logic, which puts the onus to prove your method is safe squarely on you, not us.

In reply to:
-If I tear a pulley, or even dislocate a shoulder, I can still certainly rappel, can probably still competantly belay, and have a pretty fair chance at self-rescue, without needing to call magic sorbet to take 12 hours to haul my ass out.

What the fuck does that have to do with anything? Are you so insecure about your belaying that you have to concoct one irrelevant story after another about things that you might actually be good at?

In reply to:
I didn't come on here to tell anybody else how to belay. I came on to defend my (objectively, so far) 100% safe method of belaying.

And that statement right there proves you are either lying or deluded. There is no foolproof way to belay.

Jay


curt


Mar 19, 2009, 7:33 PM
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Re: [DexterRutecki] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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DexterRutecki wrote:
curt wrote:
You're probably a shitty engineer too.

Curt

Insults - the next best thing to a sound argument.

It's also highly entertaining and ironic that you put this in your RC.com profile:

DexterRutecki wrote:
...You name it, I want to climb it. If you're experienced, and don't mind taking someone newer trad climbing (who will listen and learn), hit me up...

Perhaps you should actually pay attention to what you wrote?

Curt


onceahardman


Mar 19, 2009, 7:34 PM
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Re: [DexterRutecki] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Just because you have gotten away with something for a long time doesn't make it correct.

I don't disagree.

I have made sound arguments throughout this thread. Loosening and sliding one's grip is clearly different from releasing. Re-gripping is faster than locking off-a point conceded by the original protagonist, JT.

In the absense of objective evidence to the contrary, the burden is clearly on you to show my method unsafe. The fact it's not in your textbook does not render it unsafe.

The advantage of the methods I use, aside from familiarity, is smoothness. I find the robotic, mechanical, gym-taught belays to be slow, choppy, and ugly.

The following is not an insult, merely a personal observation of engineers, which include several of my best climbing friends.

Engineers tend toward being anal retentive, have control issues, and often suffer from analysis paralysis.


(This post was edited by onceahardman on Mar 19, 2009, 7:36 PM)


jt512


Mar 19, 2009, 7:36 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
DexterRutecki wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
If there is one sure way to get yourself hurt in this game, it is ignoring the empirical in favor of the academic. What you learn in those books are foundational building blocks, you can't always ignore real world experience in their favor.

It's all about adaptability my friend. You gotta find a balance.

Think about it.

I hear what you're saying, but have to disagree. "Veterans", and those with a lot of experience are full of advice, it doesn't make it any good. For example, you could use a technique which has an inherent flaw in it for 20 years with no problem, and your empirical evidence tells you what you are doing is safe - and be dead wrong. Just because you have gotten away with something for a long time doesn't make it correct.

As another example, at work, as an engineer, I take a lot of advice from one of my more experienced "elders". He has never told me anything that he couldn't back up by sound logic. Occasionally I'll disagree with him, and if my argument has merit, he'll concede. My point being that you should never blindly take advice from someone's "experience", no matter how deep, without applying critical thought to it, and understanding what makes it right.

It's like you haven't even read this thread. I have spent the last 5 pages applying critical thought to this problem.

And you have consistently come to the wrong conclusions. Valid logic applied to false premises.

Jay


onceahardman


Mar 19, 2009, 7:43 PM
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Re: [jt512] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
onceahardman wrote:
I'm not speaking for either curt or dingus, but my impressions of this thread so far are:

-Older, experienced climbers like me don't like being told our belay method is "incompetant, unsafe, ignorant", or any other such adjectives, especially without any objective support, and with considerable anecdotal support of their effectiveness.

Whether you like it or not has no relation to its truth value.

In reply to:
-Older, experienced trad climbers have generally faced more adversity than young sporties. If I drop my belay/rappel device, or leave it at home, I can still safely go climbing. I learned to climb with less equipment, and can still do so when necessary.

Which is completely irrelevant to whether your let-go-with-the-brake-hand technique is safe. Since the technique not only flies in the face of how climbers have been taught to belay for generations, common sense, and logic, which puts the onus to prove your method is safe squarely on you, not us.

In reply to:
-If I tear a pulley, or even dislocate a shoulder, I can still certainly rappel, can probably still competantly belay, and have a pretty fair chance at self-rescue, without needing to call magic sorbet to take 12 hours to haul my ass out.

What the fuck does that have to do with anything? Are you so insecure about your belaying that you have to concoct one irrelevant story after another about things that you might actually be good at?

In reply to:
I didn't come on here to tell anybody else how to belay. I came on to defend my (objectively, so far) 100% safe method of belaying.

And that statement right there proves you are either lying or deluded. There is no foolproof way to belay.

Jay

The king of the strawman returns! I didn't call my method "foolproof". I said it is objectively 100% safe so far, which is true.

I''ve already told you sliding a grip is not releasing, and you have conceded that re-gripping is faster than locking off.

You SAYING it's a release, does not make it so. Prove my methods unsafe, or STFU.


DexterRutecki


Mar 19, 2009, 7:52 PM
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Re: [curt] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
DexterRutecki wrote:
...You name it, I want to climb it. If you're experienced, and don't mind taking someone newer trad climbing (who will listen and learn), hit me up...

Perhaps you should actually pay attention to what you wrote?

Curt

I stand by what I wrote. So far your responses to me have been name calling, insults, and a few posts up, actually making fun of the fact that I would probably wear a helmet while climbing outside (you are correct). If I found a climbing mentor who happened to be that demeaning, negative, and immature, I would not be climbing with them for long. The fact that you scoured the few posts I've made on here for "ammunition" to respond with...I don't really know how to comment, but give me a break.


jt512


Mar 19, 2009, 7:53 PM
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Re: [onceahardman] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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onceahardman wrote:
jt512 wrote:
onceahardman wrote:
I'm not speaking for either curt or dingus, but my impressions of this thread so far are:

-Older, experienced climbers like me don't like being told our belay method is "incompetant, unsafe, ignorant", or any other such adjectives, especially without any objective support, and with considerable anecdotal support of their effectiveness.

Whether you like it or not has no relation to its truth value.

In reply to:
-Older, experienced trad climbers have generally faced more adversity than young sporties. If I drop my belay/rappel device, or leave it at home, I can still safely go climbing. I learned to climb with less equipment, and can still do so when necessary.

Which is completely irrelevant to whether your let-go-with-the-brake-hand technique is safe. Since the technique not only flies in the face of how climbers have been taught to belay for generations, common sense, and logic, which puts the onus to prove your method is safe squarely on you, not us.

In reply to:
-If I tear a pulley, or even dislocate a shoulder, I can still certainly rappel, can probably still competantly belay, and have a pretty fair chance at self-rescue, without needing to call magic sorbet to take 12 hours to haul my ass out.

What the fuck does that have to do with anything? Are you so insecure about your belaying that you have to concoct one irrelevant story after another about things that you might actually be good at?

In reply to:
I didn't come on here to tell anybody else how to belay. I came on to defend my (objectively, so far) 100% safe method of belaying.

And that statement right there proves you are either lying or deluded. There is no foolproof way to belay.

Jay

The king of the strawman returns! I didn't call my method "foolproof". I said it is objectively 100% safe so far, which is true.

Fuck you. I don't use straw man arguments ever. I try my best to be intellectually honest. I simply did not see that you wrote "so far" in the post I was replying to.

In reply to:
I''ve already told you sliding a grip is not releasing, and you have conceded that re-gripping is faster than locking off.

I've already told you that I don't believe it is possible to consistently slide your brake hand up the rope with a firm enough grip without holding the free end of the rope with your non-brake hand.

In reply to:
You SAYING it's a release, does not make it so. Prove my methods unsafe, or STFU.

And your saying it's not a release, does not make it not one. As far as who has the onus to prove their method is safe, I've explained twice why it is you.

Jay


onceahardman


Mar 19, 2009, 8:10 PM
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In reply to:
Fuck you. I don't use straw man arguments ever.

Oh man, thanks. That's so rich. I really DID laugh out loud, although I never type the abbreviation.


Here is you, from the same post:

In reply to:
Are you so insecure about your belaying that you have to concoct one irrelevant story after another about things that you might actually be good at?

The argument is not about my insecurity, as you tried to assert in strawman fashion. The issue is safety. My methods have proven safe, whether in sunshine, with frozen ropes, lightning, hypothermia, snow, sleet, rain, hail, at night, bit by biting ants, or with poison ivy on the belay ledge.

I have never dropped anyone, in a 30 + year climbing career. Insecurity is no problem here. I know my ways work. And I'm still learning.

As I said, prove my ways unsafe, and I'll gladly change.


In reply to:
I've already told you that I don't believe it is possible to consistently slide your brake hand up the rope with a firm enough grip without holding the free end of the rope with your non-brake hand.

You don't "believe"? Fine. Prove it.


(This post was edited by onceahardman on Mar 19, 2009, 8:12 PM)


notapplicable


Mar 19, 2009, 8:26 PM
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jt512 wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
DexterRutecki wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
If there is one sure way to get yourself hurt in this game, it is ignoring the empirical in favor of the academic. What you learn in those books are foundational building blocks, you can't always ignore real world experience in their favor.

It's all about adaptability my friend. You gotta find a balance.

Think about it.

I hear what you're saying, but have to disagree. "Veterans", and those with a lot of experience are full of advice, it doesn't make it any good. For example, you could use a technique which has an inherent flaw in it for 20 years with no problem, and your empirical evidence tells you what you are doing is safe - and be dead wrong. Just because you have gotten away with something for a long time doesn't make it correct.

As another example, at work, as an engineer, I take a lot of advice from one of my more experienced "elders". He has never told me anything that he couldn't back up by sound logic. Occasionally I'll disagree with him, and if my argument has merit, he'll concede. My point being that you should never blindly take advice from someone's "experience", no matter how deep, without applying critical thought to it, and understanding what makes it right.

It's like you haven't even read this thread. I have spent the last 5 pages applying critical thought to this problem.

And you have consistently come to the wrong conclusions. Valid logic applied to false premises.

Jay


Don't misunderstand, I was calling him on his apparent bullshit not implying that the simple employment of critical thought served to validate the conclusions drawn. His statements are contrary to his actions. He says experiences need to be backed up or validated by critical thought/analysis which just rings false because he does not possess experience nor has he employed any form of critical thinking or analysis. While I have done exactly that.

Even if it turns out I am wrong, I have made ernest and substantive efforts to vet my practices through empirical, academic and peer review means.


curt


Mar 19, 2009, 8:31 PM
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DexterRutecki wrote:
curt wrote:
DexterRutecki wrote:
...You name it, I want to climb it. If you're experienced, and don't mind taking someone newer trad climbing (who will listen and learn), hit me up...

Perhaps you should actually pay attention to what you wrote?

Curt

I stand by what I wrote...

I'm hardly surprised. You have already demonstrated yourself to be extremely obtuse. You have very little climbing talent and even less experience--and yet you are claiming to know WTF you are talking about. Why don't you give us all a break?

Curt


notapplicable


Mar 19, 2009, 8:36 PM
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DexterRutecki wrote:
curt wrote:
DexterRutecki wrote:
...You name it, I want to climb it. If you're experienced, and don't mind taking someone newer trad climbing (who will listen and learn), hit me up...

Perhaps you should actually pay attention to what you wrote?

Curt

I stand by what I wrote. So far your responses to me have been name calling, insults, and a few posts up, actually making fun of the fact that I would probably wear a helmet while climbing outside (you are correct). If I found a climbing mentor who happened to be that demeaning, negative, and immature, I would not be climbing with them for long. The fact that you scoured the few posts I've made on here for "ammunition" to respond with...I don't really know how to comment, but give me a break.

How about me? I have thus far not only humored you by writing a lengthy reply to which you have not responded but I have treated you with respect and courtesy.

I hope you intend to act in kind because there is little more annoying than someone who calls a person out and draws a line in the sand (which you've done with me) but doesn't have the spine to either see the discussion through to it's end or admit they were wrong before walking away.


notapplicable


Mar 19, 2009, 8:41 PM
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Re: [onceahardman] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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onceahardman wrote:

jt512 wrote:
I've already told you that I don't believe it is possible to consistently slide your brake hand up the rope with a firm enough grip without holding the free end of the rope with your non-brake hand.

You don't "believe"? Fine. Prove it.

God. I so hope this all ends with video footage of someone trying to validate the relative merits of this method.

Who owns a video camera?


curt


Mar 19, 2009, 8:47 PM
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notapplicable wrote:
onceahardman wrote:

jt512 wrote:
I've already told you that I don't believe it is possible to consistently slide your brake hand up the rope with a firm enough grip without holding the free end of the rope with your non-brake hand.

You don't "believe"? Fine. Prove it.

God. I so hope this all ends with video footage of someone trying to validate the relative merits of this method.

Who owns a video camera?

Well, we could probably put this issue to rest empirically, if anyone had the energy and desire to do so. Simply substitute sandbags tossed from the top of a climb, at random intervals, while several belayers use the belay technique in question to arrest the fall of the sandbags. I already know what the result will be, but the experiment may serve to calm down jt512.

Curt


jt512


Mar 19, 2009, 8:51 PM
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onceahardman wrote:
In reply to:
Fuck you. I don't use straw man arguments ever.

Oh man, thanks. That's so rich. I really DID laugh out loud, although I never type the abbreviation.

Fuck off.

In reply to:
Here is you, from the same post:

In reply to:
Are you so insecure about your belaying that you have to concoct one irrelevant story after another about things that you might actually be good at?

The argument is not about my insecurity, as you tried to assert in strawman fashion.

You obviously do not know what a straw man argument is. In fact, I'm not even sure you know the difference between an argument and a question.

In reply to:
The issue is safety. My methods have proven safe, whether in sunshine, with frozen ropes, lightning, hypothermia, snow, sleet, rain, hail, at night, bit by biting ants, or with poison ivy on the belay ledge.

I have never dropped anyone, in a 30 + year climbing career. Insecurity is no problem here. I know my ways work. And I'm still learning.

30 years of climbing, or 30 years since you first climbed?

And the fact that you haven't dropped anyone, doesn't mean that your method has "proven safe."

In reply to:
As I said, prove my ways unsafe, and I'll gladly change.

Well, appeals to logic, common sense, and accepted practice haven't been effective, and no reliable safety data exists; so, why don't you just shut the fuck up and keep doing what you're doing on your fabulous moderate trad lines, instead of keep lying to us about all the falls you've caught—in light of the fact that one active sport climber will catch more falls in a matter of months than you and Curt put together have in your whole careers.

In reply to:
I've already told you that I don't believe it is possible to consistently slide your brake hand up the rope with a firm enough grip without holding the free end of the rope with your non-brake hand.

In reply to:
You don't "believe"? Fine. Prove it.

No matter how many times you write "prove it," the onus to "prove it" will still be on you, retard.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Mar 19, 2009, 8:58 PM)


notapplicable


Mar 19, 2009, 8:55 PM
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curt wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
onceahardman wrote:

jt512 wrote:
I've already told you that I don't believe it is possible to consistently slide your brake hand up the rope with a firm enough grip without holding the free end of the rope with your non-brake hand.

You don't "believe"? Fine. Prove it.

God. I so hope this all ends with video footage of someone trying to validate the relative merits of this method.

Who owns a video camera?

Well, we could probably put this issue to rest empirically, if anyone had the energy and desire to do so. Simply substitute sandbags tossed from the top of a climb, at random intervals, while several belayers use the belay technique in question to arrest the fall of the sandbags. I already know what the result will be, but the experiment may serve to calm down jt512.

Curt

At the very least the belayer would have to be looking at the ground but I was thinking about incorporating a blind fold and maybe even ear plugs to get as close to a "worst case scenario" as possible.

I have the gear, personnel and time but not the camera. Damn sure not gonna rent one but I might ask around and see if anyone I know owns one.

Edited to add: I know who will do it. Majidiot PM'd!!


(This post was edited by notapplicable on Mar 19, 2009, 8:56 PM)


curt


Mar 19, 2009, 9:08 PM
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jt512 wrote:
onceahardman wrote:
In reply to:
Fuck you. I don't use straw man arguments ever.

Oh man, thanks. That's so rich. I really DID laugh out loud, although I never type the abbreviation.

Fuck off.

In reply to:
Here is you, from the same post:

In reply to:
Are you so insecure about your belaying that you have to concoct one irrelevant story after another about things that you might actually be good at?

The argument is not about my insecurity, as you tried to assert in strawman fashion.

You obviously do not know what a straw man argument is. In fact, I'm not even sure you know the difference between an argument and a question.

In reply to:
The issue is safety. My methods have proven safe, whether in sunshine, with frozen ropes, lightning, hypothermia, snow, sleet, rain, hail, at night, bit by biting ants, or with poison ivy on the belay ledge.

I have never dropped anyone, in a 30 + year climbing career. Insecurity is no problem here. I know my ways work. And I'm still learning.

30 years of climbing, or 30 years since you first climbed?

And the fact that you haven't dropped anyone, doesn't mean that your method has "proven safe."

In reply to:
As I said, prove my ways unsafe, and I'll gladly change.

Well, appeals to logic, common sense, and accepted practice haven't been effective, and no reliable safety data exists; so, why don't you just shut the fuck up and keep doing what you're doing on your fabulous moderate trad lines, instead of keep lying to us about all the falls you've caught—in light of the fact that one active sport climber will catch more falls in a matter of months than you and Curt put together have in your whole careers.

In reply to:
I've already told you that I don't believe it is possible to consistently slide your brake hand up the rope with a firm enough grip without holding the free end of the rope with your non-brake hand.

In reply to:
You don't "believe"? Fine. Prove it.

No matter how many times you write "prove it," the onus to "prove it" will still be on you, retard.

Jay

Jay,

I don't know how you got so "out-to-lunch" on this topic. I have now suggested that we test the belay technique in question and see what happens. I guarantee you I will safely arrest the fall of all the sandbags using the belay technique under discussion, but I will do this anyway--just to humor you.

If you feel my proposal is not sufficient, then the onus is clearly on you to suggest an experiment that would be meaningful. Absent any measurable data, your opinion (no matter how strongly stated) is simply a baseless opinion.

Curt


jt512


Mar 19, 2009, 9:29 PM
Post #197 of 387 (2640 views)
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Posts: 21890

Re: [curt] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
onceahardman wrote:
In reply to:
Fuck you. I don't use straw man arguments ever.

Oh man, thanks. That's so rich. I really DID laugh out loud, although I never type the abbreviation.

Fuck off.

In reply to:
Here is you, from the same post:

In reply to:
Are you so insecure about your belaying that you have to concoct one irrelevant story after another about things that you might actually be good at?

The argument is not about my insecurity, as you tried to assert in strawman fashion.

You obviously do not know what a straw man argument is. In fact, I'm not even sure you know the difference between an argument and a question.

In reply to:
The issue is safety. My methods have proven safe, whether in sunshine, with frozen ropes, lightning, hypothermia, snow, sleet, rain, hail, at night, bit by biting ants, or with poison ivy on the belay ledge.

I have never dropped anyone, in a 30 + year climbing career. Insecurity is no problem here. I know my ways work. And I'm still learning.

30 years of climbing, or 30 years since you first climbed?

And the fact that you haven't dropped anyone, doesn't mean that your method has "proven safe."

In reply to:
As I said, prove my ways unsafe, and I'll gladly change.

Well, appeals to logic, common sense, and accepted practice haven't been effective, and no reliable safety data exists; so, why don't you just shut the fuck up and keep doing what you're doing on your fabulous moderate trad lines, instead of keep lying to us about all the falls you've caught—in light of the fact that one active sport climber will catch more falls in a matter of months than you and Curt put together have in your whole careers.

In reply to:
I've already told you that I don't believe it is possible to consistently slide your brake hand up the rope with a firm enough grip without holding the free end of the rope with your non-brake hand.

In reply to:
You don't "believe"? Fine. Prove it.

No matter how many times you write "prove it," the onus to "prove it" will still be on you, retard.

Jay

Jay,

I don't know how you got so "out-to-lunch" on this topic. I have now suggested that we test the belay technique in question and see what happens. I guarantee you I will safely arrest the fall of all the sandbags using the belay technique under discussion, but I will do this anyway--just to humor you.

If you feel my proposal is not sufficient, then the onus is clearly on you to suggest an experiment that would be meaningful. Absent any measurable data, your opinion (no matter how strongly stated) is simply a baseless opinion.

Curt

The test you describe would not be convincing, and may do more harm than good, since naive readers may not understand the limitations of the study. For one thing, you cannot possibly generate a large enough sample size. The event of dropping a climber would likely be rare under any belay technique, so you would need a huge sample size of drops to even see a single event, never mind enough to make meaningful comparisons with a control group (read on). Third, you ought to have a control group that uses an accepted belay method for comparison, because the question, really, is whether your method is at least as safe as accepted methods. Fourth, Hawthorne effect: Subjects will know they are being studied, and will almost certainly be on their best belay behavior, whereas they may not be in actual practice. Fifth, external validity: Real belaying involves taking up and letting out slack at irregular, unpredictable intervals. I don't see how you can replicate that using sandbags, and it would likely be an error to assume that the results of a sandbag study would translate to the more complex task of real-life belaying.

So, not only is there no real data to back up your claims, collecting valid, convincing data may prove impracticable.

Jay


jt512


Mar 19, 2009, 9:39 PM
Post #198 of 387 (2635 views)
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Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21890

Re: [jt512] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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For the record, I'm going to reiterate my opinion of the BS technique, which I wrote in my first post to this thread since its 3-year revival:

I wrote:
What you were taught has never, as far as I am aware, been considered a valid belay technique. It is true that you see a lot of "veterans" use it. Whether or not they could be counted on to catch a fall is debatable. What is not debatable is that they should not have passed this technique on to you, and you should not pass it on to other beginners.


curt


Mar 19, 2009, 9:46 PM
Post #199 of 387 (2634 views)
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Registered: Aug 26, 2002
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Re: [jt512] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
curt wrote:
jt512 wrote:
onceahardman wrote:
In reply to:
Fuck you. I don't use straw man arguments ever.

Oh man, thanks. That's so rich. I really DID laugh out loud, although I never type the abbreviation.

Fuck off.

In reply to:
Here is you, from the same post:

In reply to:
Are you so insecure about your belaying that you have to concoct one irrelevant story after another about things that you might actually be good at?

The argument is not about my insecurity, as you tried to assert in strawman fashion.

You obviously do not know what a straw man argument is. In fact, I'm not even sure you know the difference between an argument and a question.

In reply to:
The issue is safety. My methods have proven safe, whether in sunshine, with frozen ropes, lightning, hypothermia, snow, sleet, rain, hail, at night, bit by biting ants, or with poison ivy on the belay ledge.

I have never dropped anyone, in a 30 + year climbing career. Insecurity is no problem here. I know my ways work. And I'm still learning.

30 years of climbing, or 30 years since you first climbed?

And the fact that you haven't dropped anyone, doesn't mean that your method has "proven safe."

In reply to:
As I said, prove my ways unsafe, and I'll gladly change.

Well, appeals to logic, common sense, and accepted practice haven't been effective, and no reliable safety data exists; so, why don't you just shut the fuck up and keep doing what you're doing on your fabulous moderate trad lines, instead of keep lying to us about all the falls you've caught—in light of the fact that one active sport climber will catch more falls in a matter of months than you and Curt put together have in your whole careers.

In reply to:
I've already told you that I don't believe it is possible to consistently slide your brake hand up the rope with a firm enough grip without holding the free end of the rope with your non-brake hand.

In reply to:
You don't "believe"? Fine. Prove it.

No matter how many times you write "prove it," the onus to "prove it" will still be on you, retard.

Jay

Jay,

I don't know how you got so "out-to-lunch" on this topic. I have now suggested that we test the belay technique in question and see what happens. I guarantee you I will safely arrest the fall of all the sandbags using the belay technique under discussion, but I will do this anyway--just to humor you.

If you feel my proposal is not sufficient, then the onus is clearly on you to suggest an experiment that would be meaningful. Absent any measurable data, your opinion (no matter how strongly stated) is simply a baseless opinion.

Curt

The test you describe would not be convincing, and may do more harm than good, since naive readers may not understand the limitations of the study. For one thing, you cannot possibly generate a large enough sample size. The event of dropping a climber would likely be rare under any belay technique, so you would need a huge sample size of drops to even see a single event, never mind enough to make meaningful comparisons with a control group (read on). Third, you ought to have a control group that uses an accepted belay method for comparison, because the question, really, is whether your method is at least as safe as accepted methods. Fourth, Hawthorne effect: Subjects will know they are being studied, and will almost certainly be on their best belay behavior, whereas they may not be in actual practice. Fifth, external validity: Real belaying involves taking up and letting out slack at irregular, unpredictable intervals. I don't see how you can replicate that using sandbags, and it would likely be an error to assume that the results of a sandbag study would translate to the more complex task of real-life belaying.

So, not only is there no real data to back up your claims, collecting valid, convincing data may prove impracticable.

Jay

Well, clearly, if you can't even come up with an experiment that will prove or disprove your position, you are no longer in the realm of scientific enquiry. Perhaps your blind faith based beliefs in your opinions are greater than you care to let on?

Curt


curt


Mar 19, 2009, 9:47 PM
Post #200 of 387 (2678 views)
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Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 18227

Re: [jt512] Safest belay technique [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
...Well, appeals to logic, common sense, and accepted practice haven't been effective, and no reliable safety data exists; so, why don't you just shut the fuck up and keep doing what you're doing on your fabulous moderate trad lines, instead of keep lying to us about all the falls you've caught—in light of the fact that one active sport climber will catch more falls in a matter of months than you and Curt put together have in your whole careers...

You're getting a bit personal there Jay, and I'm not sure I like it. By the way, my moderate trad lines include Sunbowl in JT, a Scott cosgrove 5.13a. Have a go at it after you manage Clean and Jerk.

Curt

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