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coloredchalker


Nov 8, 2006, 1:56 PM
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You could argue that it's unfair to take advantage of desperate people who have no other means to get the help the Christians are offering. This is more of a gray area, kind of like sweat shops--but go back to that assumption there's no other way to get the help. Sure it would be better if the help came in a perfect package, bright and shiny with no strings attached, but the world is rarely like that.

Girl, most of what you say makes complete sense but I would like to clarify one point. All the work I'm involved with and that I have seen done by christian orgs. comes with no strings attatched, which you might not believe, but 'tis true. For instance, the org. I work with has schools, and a medical clinic, etc. At the schools the children don't even have to pay because donor dollars cover expenses. And the child doesn't have to be a christian, come to church, read a sentence out of the bible etc... At the clinic, there is no preliminary baptism service for entry or 100 hr prayer log required to recieve treatment. If you can pay the minimal fee, and lots of times even if you can't, you will recieve treatment.
No strings attatched.

Just to clarify.

Thats how Jesus worked, whether healing some one, visiting someones house, etc, he didn't require them to do anything or be any particular person before interacting with them. He just responded to them where they were at.


c4c


Nov 8, 2006, 2:11 PM
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Now, the case of Christians denying people access to public resources unless they pray? Bad behavior, no question. I suppose some Christians would say the ends justify the means, i.e. it's okay to play dirty in order to save a soul. But the climb-for-christ people here aren't doing that, they're just trying to connect with each other. I'm a shameless heathen but I have no problem with that. RC.com is a public resource, and I wouldn't deny it to any group of climbers, Christian, fundamentalist Islamic, convicted felons, people in spandex, whomever.
Leezergirl, We would not force someone to pray with us. We might invite you. But highly doubt forcing anything, be it a prayer, attendance at a meeting, or even a conversation would be very effective way to convince people to convert to christianity. Like the org's that coloredchalker works with, Climbing for Christ does not have any prerequisites for those that receive our help. If they ask why we are doing it, will be sure to tell them.

ptc- glad to see you make an appearance :D


leezerdgirl


Nov 8, 2006, 2:33 PM
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Sorry about that, should have prefaced my rant by acknowledging that not all religious missionaries tie help and evangalism together. Some do good deeds only for the sake of doing good deeds, not necessarily winning converts.

c4c, coloredchalker, nice to hear that you and your orgs believe in non-coercion. I support anyone in being ready to communicate their beliefs, and appreciate it when they are willing to let it go if the audience is not receptive. Of course, there are times and places to be forceful about your beliefs, such as when your rights are being infringed upon. I'm thinking MLK, Gandhi, etc.

You'll have to forgive those of us with a bad attitude toward Christians, based on bad experiences. Me, I grew up a lone Jew in the Bible Belt south. Had kids feeling my head for horns, etc. I had a bad attitude toward Christians for a long time. But I grew out of it. Hopefully, so did they.


billl7


Nov 8, 2006, 6:28 PM
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To those of you who keep using Bush's policies to attempt to discredit Christianity itself:

http://www.sojo.net/...&item=petition_flash
I watched the video. It's at least clear that there are Christians out there who do no support Bush. And it jives with my Christian co-worker who mourned that Bush won a 2nd term. Broadens my view a little bit, not that it would very much change the main views I've expressed.

Bill L


billl7


Nov 8, 2006, 6:53 PM
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Did I get the extra credit?????
Well said ... to you and all around. My bad.


ericbeyeler


Nov 8, 2006, 9:10 PM
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Bill -
Here is another link to check out.
http://cpt.org/...ications/history.php
Unfortunately, the good news Jesus taught has been grossly misrepresented by certain political ideologies or even well-meaning but misguided Christians.
When you look at what Jesus actually taught, as opposed to what is being touted by some people, you get a very different picture.

Love your enemies, do good to those that hate you.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

If I am hated as a Christian, I want it to be because I act like Jesus, as is the case of many Christians in Asian, Middle Eastern, and African countries. Unfortunately, Christianity in America has a bad name not because it acts like Jesus but because many times those who take the name Christian act hatefully, have misguided political agendas, or are hypocritical. We need to repent, please forgive us.

Eric


annak


Nov 8, 2006, 11:47 PM
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Why don't you come to the light side, we're having a great time and the future looks promising.

The Christian future looks promising? I beg to differ. If the fundamentalist Christians in the U.S. continue to have their way, our future looks dim indeed. What have the Christians done for us lately? They have attempted, and continue to attempt, to replace legitimate science education about the origins of life with religious mythology. They have thwarted educational efforts about condom use that has pr oven to be effect at limiting the spread of AIDS because they believe that preventing sex is morally superior to preventing sexually transmitted disease. They have caused laws to be passed that will limit the most promising medical research in history -- stem cell research -- because they believe that collections of less than 100 embryonic cells cultured in a petri dish have more right to "life" than people dying and suffering from a myriad of diseases.

The Christian future is hardly "promising." It's frankly bleak.

Jay

Guess what I heard today on NPR -- turns out our Supreme Court is busy
deciding about whether certain medical procedures should be allowed, in responce to our government's decision on the matter. It is already bad enough that the politicians and the judges rather than physicians are deciding of how exactly the second trimester abortions should be conducted. Turns out that our glorious government decided that a less invasive and safer procedure that is proven to cause less complications for women health should be illegal, on the basis of their Christian "pro-life" believes. Basically, they prefer to cause harm to a woman, just to make sure that 3-6 month old fetus demises in the uterus, and not half-way out. And the Supreme Court is busy deciding whether or not to confirm this decision. I did not know whether to laugh or cry.


coloredchalker


Nov 9, 2006, 5:37 AM
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Guess what I heard today on NPR -- turns out our Supreme Court is busy
deciding about whether certain medical procedures should be allowed, in responce to our government's decision on the matter. It is already bad enough that the politicians and the judges rather than physicians are deciding of how exactly the second trimester abortions should be conducted. Turns out that our glorious government decided that a less invasive and safer procedure that is proven to cause less complications for women health should be illegal, on the basis of their Christian "pro-life" believes. Basically, they prefer to cause harm to a woman, just to make sure that 3-6 month old fetus demises in the uterus, and not half-way out. And the Supreme Court is busy deciding whether or not to confirm this decision. I did not know whether to laugh or cry.

Why do you say "Christian prolifers" as if christians are the only ones in favor of life? I bet your pretty happy your mom was a prolifer and didn't just consider you an inconvenient mass of reproducing cells. Or pehaps youd rather have missed out on life and been classified as trash?


Partner jammer


Nov 9, 2006, 5:52 AM
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Man, it's too bad that people get slammed when they talk about christians on this site. It seems that it's always open season on them. Sup with dat? Can't it be more like live and let live??


sdkbcassidy


Nov 9, 2006, 7:16 AM
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Man, it's too bad that people get slammed when they talk about christians on this site. It seems that it's always open season on them. Sup with dat? Can't it be more like live and let live??

Except the problem is that to be a good Christian, you have to get the word out. Gotta convert the unbelievers. I'm all for live and let live, but I don't get the same respect. It gets annoying in the extreme. A few examples? I don't even have to refer to government or politics.

- When I was 4 and my Christian neighbor decided that not only should her kids understand that Christmas is only about Jesus and that Santa Claus doesn't exist, the rest of the neigborhood kids should know as well. Thanks. I would have liked to have held on to my delusions a little longer. I'm still pissed about that one.

- When I was a freshman in college and one of my classmates (a newly converted christian) from high school kept calling, trying to save me from my evil ways, going down the evil path. Apparently, he was having visions in church. Ugh.

- 2 weeks ago on a flight home when the person next to me started a conversation about whether or not I believed in heaven. I was all content to read my book, but he wanted to talk. When I told him I thought it didn't matter one way or the other, he started in. At first, he seemed fairly reasonable and willing to listen to my point-of-view, just as I was willing to listen to his. But, then he asked me to start assuming all sorts of unprovable things were true so that he could get to his "logical" conclusion that Jesus was going to save me. In my line of work, it all starts w/ assumptions - you make bad ones and everything after that is crap, doesn't mean a thing. Once I pointed out a few holes in his assumptions he was, luckily for me, done with me.

I could go on, but hopefully you get the point.


Partner tradman


Nov 9, 2006, 7:52 AM
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I'm all for live and let live, but I don't get the same respect.

Yep, you're all for live and let live.

Except that you remember and store up every imagined slight from the age of 4 and complain bitterly about them without the slightest provocation, then use them as a justification for ongoing attacks on people who've never done you wrong and who in fact you've never even met.

Heck, we should make you a saint.

:roll:


annak


Nov 9, 2006, 8:02 AM
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Guess what I heard today on NPR -- turns out our Supreme Court is busy
deciding about whether certain medical procedures should be allowed, in responce to our government's decision on the matter. It is already bad enough that the politicians and the judges rather than physicians are deciding of how exactly the second trimester abortions should be conducted. Turns out that our glorious government decided that a less invasive and safer procedure that is proven to cause less complications for women health should be illegal, on the basis of their Christian "pro-life" believes. Basically, they prefer to cause harm to a woman, just to make sure that 3-6 month old fetus demises in the uterus, and not half-way out. And the Supreme Court is busy deciding whether or not to confirm this decision. I did not know whether to laugh or cry.

Why do you say "Christian prolifers" as if christians are the only ones in favor of life? I bet your pretty happy your mom was a prolifer and didn't just consider you an inconvenient mass of reproducing cells. Or pehaps youd rather have missed out on life and been classified as trash?


You do not get it. They are talking about situations what an abortion is abolutely neccessary (such that even pro-lifes agree) due to grim consequencies for the mother or serious development problmes with the fetus. Like when the mother can die, or fetus has 3 legs and no head. What they debate is how to perform the procedure. With this in mind, reread my original post.

Regarding my mother -- it was her choice to have me, not the choice made by the russian goverment on her behalf. I definitely would not want to be an unwanted child and cause miserry to unfortunate parents.


htotsu


Nov 9, 2006, 9:42 AM
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htotsu, maybe we are not so far apart in our thinking on Bush - maybe.

Bush does not represent Christianity but in a simplistic sense he is a product of it. He certainly believes he is a Chirstian ans so we see politically voiced words/phrases like: we're on a "crusade" and "it's our calling" and they are "evil."

Christianity did not give him his personality. He, and others in the "religious right" use Christianity and religious language to further his own agenda. He says - and may in fact believe - that the two are connected, but I really want to point out that dogmatic people can be dogmatic about whatever they want.

In reply to:
No, republicans do not have a singular claim on Christ but there is a very very strong link as evidenced in the TX Republican platform.
Chicken vs. egg. Some people believe something strongly and then choose a political stance as a result. Others have a political stance and see people connecting it with Christianity, and then take advantage of the connection, real or perceived.

In reply to:
My main point: Christianity by its nature divides people.
...
I think that approach worked when strength in numbers mattered for survival of a group in the wilderness but the world is much more crowded and so Christianity is very outdated.

Actually in the days of the wilderness it is Judaism that you are thinking of. For some reason it's OK in our society to rip Christians, but not Jews, even though the Judeo-Christian "being and living differently and separately and being accountable to God" thing comes from the "Judeo" part. For us that idea did not start with Christ, it is more accurately attributable to Moses.

But to push that further, yes, there are aspects of Christianity that will divide people. You can say the same about food. Vegetarians do not eat meat. So does vegetarianism divide people? Yes. Does that make vegetarians cruel or unthinking? They are doing this for reasons they are willing to stand behind, whether for their health, out of concern for animals, to impress a girl, whatever. They get to choose.

Do some people use vegetarianism as their justification for acting superior to others, for vilifying others, or for trying to make people like shit for eating meat? Sure, I've seen people do it. But that does not necessarily make them representative of VEGETARIANISM itself, or other vegetarians in general. I know vegetarians who are happy to explain why they feel its the right choice for them, and are wonderful people whom I am glad to know regardless of what they choose to eat.

So, you see, vegetarians are human, and each comes with his or her own individual personality. Christians are human, too. Each will express or not express belief differently, and the point is it's rarely a great idea to lump people of any group together based on the vocal few. Most would call that discrimination or stereotyping.

In reply to:
I'll admit that I was surprised to hear a vocal Christian at work yesterday say she voted for Kerry and wore black for 2 days after that election. So I was indeed tending to lump it all into one bag as I had assumed she would vote otherwise.

This is all I really wanted to say with my original post. The fact that Christianity and the Republican party have the same followers is patently false. Whatever our reasons, we may indeed feel similarly about Bush, you and I.

Take care, and enjoy the mountains.


slablizard


Nov 9, 2006, 11:51 AM
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I just find unbelievable how one can found his/her life on religious mithology...
just to be sure that you will be "saved" ? Saved from what? As a spiritual being you will have no phisical boundaries anymore, no desires, no addictions no pulses...just pure energy. There's nothing to be saved...

Hey can you please save this ball of pure energy from??? As I see it we are in this world to experience matter, that's why we have a physical body, going back to the source when you die, will null everything that has a meaning for a "matter being" no more ethics, physical and moral laws...that is for the earth!

It would be like trying to make a supernova feel guilty. To send a black hole to hell... :wink:
we know nothing about where we live and we pretend to have rules for after we died....isn't that absurd? Following a book that was written centuries ago....justifying the incomprehensible as " a miracle" easy no? :)

Very interesting from my point of view, how people can believe blindly in the bible, but ignore for example what happens in front of their eyes. Like global warming, and such.

I can accept the power of pray...but just as the sum of the energy of the minds of whoever is praying...not because "god" is listening to you...you are doing that!

ANyway...live and let live.


lena_chita
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Nov 9, 2006, 12:31 PM
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... I bet your pretty happy your mom was a prolifer and didn't just consider you an inconvenient mass of reproducing cells. Or pehaps youd rather have missed out on life and been classified as trash?

Now, where is the logic in this statement? What makes you think that the mother in question was a pro-lifer? Just b/c she had this ONE child (annak?-- I get confused by multiple quotes within quotes) doesn't mean that she was a pro-lifer. For all you know, the Mother had 2 abortions before having a child, then had a child BY CHOICE, and then decided to get tubal ligations to avoid ever having a child again :)

(My appologies to your Mother, annak, she was picked only for demostration purposes)


coloredchalker


Nov 9, 2006, 1:11 PM
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I just find unbelievable how one can found his/her life on religious mithology...
just to be sure that you will be "saved" ? Saved from what? As a spiritual being you will have no phisical boundaries anymore, no desires, no addictions no pulses...just pure energy. There's nothing to be saved...

Hey can you please save this ball of pure energy from??? As I see it we are in this world to experience matter, that's why we have a physical body, going back to the source when you die, will null everything that has a meaning for a "matter being" no more ethics, physical and moral laws...that is for the earth!

It would be like trying to make a supernova feel guilty. To send a black hole to hell... :wink:
we know nothing about where we live and we pretend to have rules for after we died....isn't that absurd? Following a book that was written centuries ago....justifying the incomprehensible as " a miracle" easy no? :)

Very interesting from my point of view, how people can believe blindly in the bible, but ignore for example what happens in front of their eyes. Like global warming, and such.

I can accept the power of pray...but just as the sum of the energy of the minds of whoever is praying...not because "god" is listening to you...you are doing that!

ANyway...live and let live.

I find it unbelievable how a person can make statements sound like fact when in fact they have absdolutely nothing to base their statment on.
In reply to:
"As a spiritual being you will have no phisical boundaries anymore, no desires, no addictions no pulses...just pure energy. There's nothing to be saved..."
What, where do you get that from? As christians at least we have a shred (how ever small it may be) to base a belief on but from what kind of system or reasoning do you get the above statement?


coloredchalker


Nov 9, 2006, 1:31 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Guess what I heard today on NPR -- turns out our Supreme Court is busy
deciding about whether certain medical procedures should be allowed, in responce to our government's decision on the matter. It is already bad enough that the politicians and the judges rather than physicians are deciding of how exactly the second trimester abortions should be conducted. Turns out that our glorious government decided that a less invasive and safer procedure that is proven to cause less complications for women health should be illegal, on the basis of their Christian "pro-life" believes. Basically, they prefer to cause harm to a woman, just to make sure that 3-6 month old fetus demises in the uterus, and not half-way out. And the Supreme Court is busy deciding whether or not to confirm this decision. I did not know whether to laugh or cry.

Why do you say "Christian prolifers" as if christians are the only ones in favor of life? I bet your pretty happy your mom was a prolifer and didn't just consider you an inconvenient mass of reproducing cells. Or pehaps youd rather have missed out on life and been classified as trash?


You do not get it. They are talking about situations what an abortion is abolutely neccessary (such that even pro-lifes agree) due to grim consequencies for the mother or serious development problmes with the fetus. Like when the mother can die, or fetus has 3 legs and no head. What they debate is how to perform the procedure. With this in mind, reread my original post.

Regarding my mother -- it was her choice to have me, not the choice made by the russian goverment on her behalf. I definitely would not want to be an unwanted child and cause miserry to unfortunate parents.

OK, I'm just saying every person that is prolife is not a christian and certaintly there are lots of prolifers that wouldn't want to be associated with christianity, so why does it all get lumped together?
I don't think unfortunate applies to parents in this debate, they aren't the mass of cells being hacked to peices. Yeah, it might be unfortnute for a man to say to his buddy-"dude, I'm not getting any right now 'cause we're really can't afford to get pregnant". That may be unfortunate but at least its responsible living.

And for the other poster, maybe your mother wasn't a hard line prolifer but at least she was prolife when she decided to carry her pregnancy with you to full term.


slablizard


Nov 9, 2006, 5:13 PM
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I find it unbelievable how a person can make statements sound like fact when in fact they have absdolutely nothing to base their statment on.
In reply to:
"As a spiritual being you will have no phisical boundaries anymore, no desires, no addictions no pulses...just pure energy. There's nothing to be saved..."
What, where do you get that from? As christians at least we have a shred (how ever small it may be) to base a belief on but from what kind of system or reasoning do you get the above statement?

LOL!

You as "believer" asking me for a proof of my reasonings? That's absurd! You base your reasonings on faith !

Do you think that a soul, a spiritual being, a being not bounded by matter and physical laws can still experience or suffer for very human and body related feelings as envy, attachment, regret or fear? What would be the point of having a physical body and a life time if not for experience what we call life?
I get that type of "reasoning" from Philosophy and spirituality...And no, I'm sorry, but you have not more evidence than mine..just different books.

Can you prove me that a star has feelings? Can you prove me that a soul has fear? does a nuclear explosion (our sun) that (incidentally) gives life to millions of creatures feel love for them? Does our magnetic field that protects us from solar wind feels something for us? Still it's keeping us alive a lot more than ANY god.

prove me wrong.


slablizard


Nov 9, 2006, 5:14 PM
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I find it unbelievable how a person can make statements sound like fact when in fact they have absdolutely nothing to base their statment on.
In reply to:
"As a spiritual being you will have no phisical boundaries anymore, no desires, no addictions no pulses...just pure energy. There's nothing to be saved..."
What, where do you get that from? As christians at least we have a shred (how ever small it may be) to base a belief on but from what kind of system or reasoning do you get the above statement?

LOL!

You as "believer" asking me for a proof of my reasonings? That's absurd! You base your reasonings on faith !

Do you think that a soul, a spiritual being, a being not bounded by matter and physical laws can still experience or suffer for very human and body related feelings as envy, attachment, regret or fear? What would be the point of having a physical body and a life time if not for experience what we call life?
I get that type of "reasoning" from Philosophy and spirituality...And no, I'm sorry, but you have not more evidence than mine..just different books.

Can you prove me that a star has feelings? Can you prove me that a soul has fear? does a nuclear explosion (our sun) that (incidentally) gives life to millions of creatures feel love for them? Does our magnetic field that protects us from solar wind feels something for us? Still it's keeping us alive a lot more than ANY god.

prove me wrong.


Partner brent_e


Nov 9, 2006, 5:42 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
I find it unbelievable how a person can make statements sound like fact when in fact they have absdolutely nothing to base their statment on.
In reply to:
"As a spiritual being you will have no phisical boundaries anymore, no desires, no addictions no pulses...just pure energy. There's nothing to be saved..."
What, where do you get that from? As christians at least we have a shred (how ever small it may be) to base a belief on but from what kind of system or reasoning do you get the above statement?

LOL!

You as "believer" asking me for a proof of my reasonings? That's absurd! You base your reasonings on faith !

Do you think that a soul, a spiritual being, a being not bounded by matter and physical laws can still experience or suffer for very human and body related feelings as envy, attachment, regret or fear? What would be the point of having a physical body and a life time if not for experience what we call life?
I get that type of "reasoning" from Philosophy and spirituality...And no, I'm sorry, but you have not more evidence than mine..just different books.

Can you prove me that a star has feelings? Can you prove me that a soul has fear? does a nuclear explosion (our sun) that (incidentally) gives life to millions of creatures feel love for them? Does our magnetic field that protects us from solar wind feels something for us? Still it's keeping us alive a lot more than ANY god.

prove me wrong.

You're wrong.


(good argument)


billl7


Nov 9, 2006, 5:46 PM
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And for the other poster, maybe your mother wasn't a hard line prolifer but at least she was prolife when she decided to carry her pregnancy with you to full term.
Do you realize that you are reducing the many reasons why people have children down to simply that they are against abortions??

Bill L


hangerlessbolt


Nov 9, 2006, 5:57 PM
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Can I just carry his gear? I mean the dude looks hella strong!


billl7


Nov 9, 2006, 6:14 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
htotsu, maybe we are not so far apart in our thinking on Bush - maybe.

Bush does not represent Christianity but in a simplistic sense he is a product of it. He certainly believes he is a Chirstian ans so we see politically voiced words/phrases like: we're on a "crusade" and "it's our calling" and they are "evil."

Christianity did not give him his personality. He, and others in the "religious right" use Christianity and religious language to further his own agenda. He says - and may in fact believe - that the two are connected, but I really want to point out that dogmatic people can be dogmatic about whatever they want. .
Even for the religious right, if it was them that got him into office, there's something that binds them together and it is called Christianity - albeit as they interpret it.

Edit: It's not just Bush that keeps me sounding like I'm talking in circles: Bush -> Christianity -> Bush. I have acquaintances, quite close to me and ones who I respect in fact, who haven't had any problem at all with that kind of circle. But I realize more than before that this isn't all Christians.

Also, in terms of fundamentalist versus not so fundamentalist (reading ahead to cintune's msg below): Is the Bible fallible or not? If a Christian tells me they think it is fallible then I'm more inclined to listen to what they might have to say.

Bill L


cintune


Nov 9, 2006, 6:15 PM
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Re: Climbing for Christ [In reply to]
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Happened to come across this today on Slate.com, might clear things up a bit:

"Modern evangelicalism emerged from an early-20th-century conflict between Protestant liberals and fundamentalists. The fundamentalists felt that the liberals had strayed too far from the teachings of the Bible and urged a return to the most orthodox teachings. The evangelicals staked out a middle ground—more conservative than the liberals but not quite as old-fashioned as the fundamentalists. The evangelicals and fundamentalists remain two distinct groups, though they share a belief in the importance of a personal relationship with God and the Bible. In general, the fundamentalists tend to be stricter and more isolated from mainstream culture. An evangelical parent might encourage his kids to listen to Christian rock, for example, while a fundamentalist parent would object to all music of that kind."

So, the point, I think, is that a lot of what we atheists find so repulsive about Xianity really falls on the "fundamentalist" rather than the "evangelical" side of this division. Seems to me that these climbers for Christ are more the "let's all be nice to each other like Jesus" types, not so much the "you are going to hell if I don't save your sorry ass" types.

Although there can obviously be some significant overlap.

Anyway, I'm in SC Pa and I use the Messiah College library fairly often, and have encountered climbers from there at local crags, and have never felt personally offended or put upon by any of them. On the other hand, I don't think I've ever run into a "fundamentalist" climber; I'd think they'd be too busy castigating the world to have fun climbing.

I also beleive there can be such a thing as a moderate Muslim, FWIW.

That said, I think it's extremely unlikely that there is an objective "god," there are just ideas about god. Some people find these ideas very appealing.


billl7


Nov 9, 2006, 6:27 PM
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Re: Climbing for Christ [In reply to]
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My main point: Christianity by its nature divides people.
...
I think that approach worked when strength in numbers mattered for survival of a group in the wilderness but the world is much more crowded and so Christianity is very outdated.

Actually in the days of the wilderness it is Judaism that you are thinking of. For some reason it's OK in our society to rip Christians, but not Jews, even though the Judeo-Christian "being and living differently and separately and being accountable to God" thing comes from the "Judeo" part. For us that idea did not start with Christ, it is more accurately attributable to Moses.
On this, I do think Jesus moved things along to a slightly less tolerable state. But I also think there is much much more to go.

On the ripping Christians instead of Jews, Jesus opened that religion (the old testament is also in there) up to anyone and so we start having strangers in white shirts and black ties knocking on our doors to encourage us to make deeply personal changes. And signs outside churches on Halloween that say: "Free Games and Candy - Oct 31", hoping to get a chance to likewise persuade children out of earshot of their parents.

Bill L

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