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Partner tradman


Nov 10, 2006, 2:25 AM
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And signs outside churches on Halloween that say: "Free Games and Candy - Oct 31", hoping to get a chance to likewise persuade children out of earshot of their parents.

Did you consider the possibility that the church is just throwing a fun party for kids?

Probably not, huh?

You think this says something about christians? I think we can all see that it says something about you.


c4c


Nov 10, 2006, 4:29 AM
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Happened to come across this today on Slate.com, might clear things up a bit:

"Modern evangelicalism emerged from an early-20th-century conflict between Protestant liberals and fundamentalists. The fundamentalists felt that the liberals had strayed too far from the teachings of the Bible and urged a return to the most orthodox teachings. The evangelicals staked out a middle ground—more conservative than the liberals but not quite as old-fashioned as the fundamentalists. The evangelicals and fundamentalists remain two distinct groups, though they share a belief in the importance of a personal relationship with God and the Bible. In general, the fundamentalists tend to be stricter and more isolated from mainstream culture. An evangelical parent might encourage his kids to listen to Christian rock, for example, while a fundamentalist parent would object to all music of that kind."

So, the point, I think, is that a lot of what we atheists find so repulsive about Xianity really falls on the "fundamentalist" rather than the "evangelical" side of this division. Seems to me that these climbers for Christ are more the "let's all be nice to each other like Jesus" types, not so much the "you are going to hell if I don't save your sorry ass" types.

Although there can obviously be some significant overlap.

Anyway, I'm in SC Pa and I use the Messiah College library fairly often, and have encountered climbers from there at local crags, and have never felt personally offended or put upon by any of them. On the other hand, I don't think I've ever run into a "fundamentalist" climber; I'd think they'd be too busy castigating the world to have fun climbing.

I also beleive there can be such a thing as a moderate Muslim, FWIW.

That said, I think it's extremely unlikely that there is an objective "god," there are just ideas about god. Some people find these ideas very appealing.

Sorry guys I would be clasified as a "fundamental" Christian I believe the Bible is infallible. If it isn't then the whole thing is just a crock of shit so to speak. How can I believe any of it if I don't believe all of it. It's not up to me (thankfully) to save your sorry butts from eternity spent seperated from a holy God in a real place called Hell---thats between you and God. So you are right that I am of the lets be nice like Jesus group because my goal is to be like Him. I do listen to Christian Rock though.


coloredchalker


Nov 10, 2006, 5:32 AM
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I find it unbelievable how a person can make statements sound like fact when in fact they have absdolutely nothing to base their statment on.
In reply to:
"As a spiritual being you will have no phisical boundaries anymore, no desires, no addictions no pulses...just pure energy. There's nothing to be saved..."
What, where do you get that from? As christians at least we have a shred (how ever small it may be) to base a belief on but from what kind of system or reasoning do you get the above statement?

LOL!

You as "believer" asking me for a proof of my reasonings? That's absurd! You base your reasonings on faith !

Do you think that a soul, a spiritual being, a being not bounded by matter and physical laws can still experience or suffer for very human and body related feelings as envy, attachment, regret or fear? What would be the point of having a physical body and a life time if not for experience what we call life?
I get that type of "reasoning" from Philosophy and spirituality...And no, I'm sorry, but you have not more evidence than mine..just different books.

Can you prove me that a star has feelings? Can you prove me that a soul has fear? does a nuclear explosion (our sun) that (incidentally) gives life to millions of creatures feel love for them? Does our magnetic field that protects us from solar wind feels something for us? Still it's keeping us alive a lot more than ANY god.

prove me wrong.

I'm taking a few deep breaths so that I can be gentle with you...breath....breath...

Ok, first of all you ask me what I think and then ask me to prove you wrong, do you see the problem there? You think that when we die we are magically transformed in to energy and will be absent any feeling. I can't ask you to prove that to me, it would be impossible. But for you to insist that that is what happens is absurd because you have no more reason to believe that than I have to believe something else. I don't know whether souls can or can't feel anything or what state they reside in, it might very well be a ball of glowing energy. But I can take the words of an expert on this subject and trust what he has to say. But no, I can't prove it and actually I'm not even going to try, sorry to disappoint you.
As for your other questions- no, apples to oranges, no, no, apples to oranges, and more no.

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen". Keep the faith brother!


coloredchalker


Nov 10, 2006, 5:38 AM
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LOL!

You as "believer" asking me for a proof of my reasonings? That's absurd! You base your reasonings on faith !

And by the way, I didn't ask you for proof, I just asked where you cam up with this idea. Big difference.


billl7


Nov 10, 2006, 6:40 AM
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And signs outside churches on Halloween that say: "Free Games and Candy - Oct 31", hoping to get a chance to likewise persuade children out of earshot of their parents.

Did you consider the possibility that the church is just throwing a fun party for kids?

Probably not, huh?

You think this says something about christians? I think we can all see that it says something about you.
Except I know the church - I attended services there for 6 years; edit: although neither as a member nor as a believer; here is their web page; one could call them and ask if they had that message on their marque this year; PM me and we'll trade full names and you can try to ask about our attendance; personally, I don't see what the big deal about this would be for a Christian; what Christian wouldn't want to have some hours of an arbitrary child's time to witness to them??)


billl7


Nov 10, 2006, 6:43 AM
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Sorry guys I would be clasified as a "fundamental" Christian I believe the Bible is infallible. If it isn't then the whole thing is just a crock of s--- so to speak. How can I believe any of it if I don't believe all of it. It's not up to me (thankfully) to save your sorry butts from eternity spent seperated from a holy God in a real place called Hell---thats between you and God. So you are right that I am of the lets be nice like Jesus group because my goal is to be like Him. I do listen to Christian Rock though.
c4c, You are a first class fellow and I'm not referring to the part about Chrisitian Rock.


htotsu


Nov 10, 2006, 6:57 AM
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Hi Bill. On the bible, I don't believe it dropped out of the sky. I think too many people, not only Christians but also those who criticize Christianity, just don't spend enough time actually studying it enough to know what they are talking about. Looking into the original Greek and Hebrew. Trying to understand context as well as content. Looking into the eras themselves and what else was going on in history.

Neither Christians themselves NOR anyone else should go merely by what is said by those in power. The whole point of Christ was that he was making the God of the Jews accessible to everyone, not just the Jews, not just the powerful, not just the literate. Many non-Christians ask Christians to think, and not to accept things blindly. Well, guess what? So does the bible.

In reply to:
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. - 2 Tim 2:15 (KJV)

In reply to:
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. - Acts 17:11

Good advice in any situation.

(Oh, and on the Halloween thing, if parents who are not members of that church are sending their children in WITHOUT ACCOMPANYING THEM, then that's the problem. In no way are those churches saying "send in your children, and please remain outside so you don't hear what we tell them." You have made an unwarranted assumption there)

And to you, Slab, you really look silly demanding proof for something when you have no way to prove the alternative you put forth.
In reply to:
I get that type of "reasoning" from Philosophy and spirituality...And no, I'm sorry, but you have not more evidence than mine..just different books.
Exactly. Meaning you have no more evidence than ours. You draw your conclusions based on "philosophy and spirituality" and rest on faith that your conclusions are so, even though you cannot submit proof here. Your conclusions are simply different from mine. We each have that right.


c4c


Nov 10, 2006, 7:05 AM
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htotsu, I wish that I could rate today and we could rate in community because that was a trophy post imho. Man I need to study more, I will be the first to say that I don't know my Bible as well as I should. That is one of the things that I love about the Bible you can spend a lifetime studying and never learn it all. That true about climbing as well, come to think about it, Maybe thats why I love them both so much. .....Maybe thats why I work for climbing for Christ? Its a perfect blend of two things that I love.


billl7


Nov 10, 2006, 7:05 AM
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(Oh, and on the Halloween thing, if parents who are not members of that church are sending their children in WITHOUT ACCOMPANYING THEM, then that's the problem. In no way are those churches saying "send in your children, and please remain outside so you don't hear what we tell them." You have made an unwarranted assumption there)
I agree that most of those kinds of parents probably don't care although I also doubt they are aware of the lifetime consequences (the part about division). It was intended as an example of the effect of the New Testament, contrasting not ripping Jews with ripping Christians.


billl7


Nov 10, 2006, 7:11 AM
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Hi Bill. On the bible, I don't believe it dropped out of the sky. I think too many people, not only Christians but also those who criticize Christianity, just don't spend enough time actually studying it enough to know what they are talking about. Looking into the original Greek and Hebrew. Trying to understand context as well as content. Looking into the eras themselves and what else was going on in history.
Not sure what you mean about "dropped out of the sky".

Unless one is into that kind of study for study's sake, to study it like that requires an ordinary bloke to cross the threshold of faith in order to have the motivation. That's where I stumble in that sort of pursuit.


coloredchalker


Nov 10, 2006, 7:20 AM
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htotsu, I wish that I could rate today and we could rate in community because that was a trophy post imho. Man I need to study more, I will be the first to say that I don't know my Bible as well as I should. That is one of the things that I love about the Bible you can spend a lifetime studying and never learn it all. That true about climbing as well, come to think about it, Maybe thats why I love them both so much. .....Maybe thats why I work for climbing for Christ? Its a perfect blend of two things that I love.

This reminds me of some thoughts I had the other day. Why do we spend so much time talking about climbing? Because it is something we love. We go to a party, we're going to be talking about climbing "man I had this epic experience climbing the other day...", "you have got to try climbing", "I'm going with some friends climbing this weekend, you should come with us!", "All other sports are lame, climbing is the only real sport", etc. We tell people about climbing whether they are really interested or not. We will spend our time away from the rock just wishing we could get back to it.
Its no different with anything else your passionate about, a woman, a food, a beverage, an animal, etc...
Yeah, people who are passionate about a religious idea are probably going to talk about it and try to get other people to try it because thats just human nature. So the next time you want to tell some one to "shut up about god already", just think that maybe they'd like to tell you to just "shut up about climbing already". I mean, just think that this is just person talking about their passion and if you don't agree with them you can at least agree that its good to be passionate about some thing.


Partner tradman


Nov 10, 2006, 7:31 AM
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I don't see what the big deal about this would be for a Christian; what Christian wouldn't want to have some hours of an arbitrary child's time to witness to them??

Me.

And almost every other christian I know. People - and that includes children - are perfectly capable of asking about religion as and when they're interested.

Again, your assumption that every christian is a religious predator who would happily prey on young children says a lot more about you than anyone else.

Still, I'm impressed by your church; they're clearly a very tolerant and forgiving bunch to have you around for six years knowing that you badmouth them behind their backs.


slablizard


Nov 10, 2006, 9:28 AM
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I'm taking a few deep breaths so that I can be gentle with you...breath....breath...

Ok, first of all you ask me what I think and then ask me to prove you wrong, do you see the problem there? You think that when we die we are magically transformed in to energy and will be absent any feeling. I can't ask you to prove that to me, it would be impossible. But for you to insist that that is what happens is absurd because you have no more reason to believe that than I have to believe something else. I don't know whether souls can or can't feel anything or what state they reside in, it might very well be a ball of glowing energy. But I can take the words of an expert on this subject and trust what he has to say. But no, I can't prove it and actually I'm not even going to try, sorry to disappoint you.
As for your other questions- no, apples to oranges, no, no, apples to oranges, and more no.
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen". Keep the faith brother!

I'm not trying to prove anything I'm just trying to show you that we both don't know. And that , to me, faith is just one easy way to explain everything we don't know. "God did it" "It's a miracle" it seems sop simplicistic to me.
Like Santa Claus for the kids. We all know it's a lie but we keep telling it.
ANd for your comparison about talking about climbing and talking about religion here yes I agree, if this was called "climbingforchrist.com"

But it's not, and religion is more and more cause for distruction and death ( watch the news lately?) today than ever. Islam, Christianity, Induism...all have good princiles...in theory, but when they are applied by men in the real word...the end result is usually submission and sufference...
apart few cases of really good people


slablizard


Nov 10, 2006, 9:28 AM
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I'm taking a few deep breaths so that I can be gentle with you...breath....breath...

Ok, first of all you ask me what I think and then ask me to prove you wrong, do you see the problem there? You think that when we die we are magically transformed in to energy and will be absent any feeling. I can't ask you to prove that to me, it would be impossible. But for you to insist that that is what happens is absurd because you have no more reason to believe that than I have to believe something else. I don't know whether souls can or can't feel anything or what state they reside in, it might very well be a ball of glowing energy. But I can take the words of an expert on this subject and trust what he has to say. But no, I can't prove it and actually I'm not even going to try, sorry to disappoint you.
As for your other questions- no, apples to oranges, no, no, apples to oranges, and more no.
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen". Keep the faith brother!

I'm not trying to prove anything I'm just trying to show you that we both don't know. And that , to me, faith is just one easy way to explain everything we don't know. "God did it" "It's a miracle" it seems sop simplicistic to me.
Like Santa Claus for the kids. We all know it's a lie but we keep telling it.
ANd for your comparison about talking about climbing and talking about religion here yes I agree, if this was called "climbingforchrist.com"

But it's not, and religion is more and more cause for distruction and death ( watch the news lately?) today than ever. Islam, Christianity, Induism...all have good princiles...in theory, but when they are applied by men in the real word...the end result is usually submission and sufference...
apart few cases of really good people


Partner tradman


Nov 10, 2006, 9:44 AM
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But it's not, and religion is more and more cause for distruction and death ( watch the news lately?) today than ever. Islam, Christianity, Induism...all have good princiles...in theory, but when they are applied by men in the real word...the end result is usually submission and sufference...

Every ideology has been subverted to control and brutalise people at one time or another, even atheism. Well, especially atheism really. But it has very little to do with the ideologies and a lot to do with the people who are distorting them.

I'm sure that most people would think it just as foolish to blame all atheists for the horrors of Mao and Stalin as it is to blame all muslims for 9/11.


healyje


Nov 10, 2006, 2:21 PM
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That folks think the bible or koran are the "word" of god is the most ridiculous part of these two particular religions. Hell, the politics associated with what ended up in what we call the "bible" today alone should be enough to question the veracity of the it. But to take such a mishmash of stories told over time by humans as anything but that is just so beyond clueless as to be surreal. There is nothing whatsoever authoritative about the origins of this collection of words other than some humans recorded them often enough for them to survive for your reading pleasure.

And as books go it's a pretty disheveled mess. Right off the top of my head I'd say this collection of fable, parable, and prayer, which has interpreted and reinterpreted over the ages, could still stand a decent edit and purging. Oh, and bring back a couple of those worthy old books that were left out of the current edition. And last, to be honest, it could really use a woman's touch after several millenia of persecuting them from ranks of authority and brutally erasing their seminal contributions to what you folks now call your faith and religion.

Personally, I think L. Ron Hubbard did a better job than this and his books still suck. Tolkien on the otherhand actual did a plausible job and you don't hear people doubting the existence of wizards and dragons, now do you?


slablizard


Nov 10, 2006, 2:32 PM
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But it's not, and religion is more and more cause for distruction and death ( watch the news lately?) today than ever. Islam, Christianity, Induism...all have good princiles...in theory, but when they are applied by men in the real word...the end result is usually submission and sufference...

Every ideology has been subverted to control and brutalise people at one time or another, even atheism. Well, especially atheism really. But it has very little to do with the ideologies and a lot to do with the people who are distorting them.

I'm sure that most people would think it just as foolish to blame all atheists for the horrors of Mao and Stalin as it is to blame all muslims for 9/11.


:?: Atheism is not an ideology, and Lenin didn't murdered millions "in the name of atheism" he ( I guess ) just excluded religion as useless to his reign of horrors, as the Khmer rouges did.
I don't blame muslims or chistians, I blame the ideology that makes them THINK they are right and therefore justifies their actions (in their view)

the SS "Got mit Uns" and the "God bless America" even when it's invading a country illegaly. Religion and gods used and misused to justify crimes!


htotsu


Nov 10, 2006, 3:14 PM
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This reminds me of some thoughts I had the other day. Why do we spend so much time talking about climbing? Because it is something we love. We go to a party, we're going to be talking about climbing "man I had this epic experience climbing the other day...", "you have got to try climbing", "I'm going with some friends climbing this weekend, you should come with us!", "All other sports are lame, climbing is the only real sport", etc. We tell people about climbing whether they are really interested or not. We will spend our time away from the rock just wishing we could get back to it.
Its no different with anything else your passionate about, a woman, a food, a beverage, an animal, etc...
Yeah, people who are passionate about a religious idea are probably going to talk about it and try to get other people to try it because thats just human nature. So the next time you want to tell some one to "shut up about god already", just think that maybe they'd like to tell you to just "shut up about climbing already".
Very good point, and a great analogy.


htotsu


Nov 10, 2006, 3:23 PM
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Hi Bill. On the bible, I don't believe it dropped out of the sky. I think too many people, not only Christians but also those who criticize Christianity, just don't spend enough time actually studying it enough to know what they are talking about. Looking into the original Greek and Hebrew. Trying to understand context as well as content. Looking into the eras themselves and what else was going on in history.
Not sure what you mean about "dropped out of the sky".

Unless one is into that kind of study for study's sake, to study it like that requires an ordinary bloke to cross the threshold of faith in order to have the motivation. That's where I stumble in that sort of pursuit.
Hello. What I meant by that is that I don't look at the version or translation in my hand and one particular sentence within it and take that sentence as truth. Too many do, and that is how people can use the bible to justify just about anything. (Incidentally, I also hear "God helps him who helps himself" attributed to the bible all the freakin time, but it is actually a quote by Benjamin Franklin that appeared in the Almanac, the second most popular publication in any household of that era). So I'm saying people need to take their time with it to try and get at the meaning.

And you make an excellent point about motivation, though many take the time to investigate not necessarily out of their own belief, but rather to better understand the source of the beliefs of others. Or perhaps just to better understand things like early American literature, for example, which is full of biblical references. Any reader of the time would have understood those references, but the modern reader without that background is at a disadvantage there and will miss out on some of what those authors are trying to convey.

Even if someone isn't willing to do as much homework on it as I suggested before (and please know that this is not meant to be malicious, and is meant for anyone who would blast something without knowing much about it beyond what has been said about it by others), I say that anyone who is not willing to read a book in its entirety should not consider himself qualified to write a review.


cintune


Nov 10, 2006, 4:15 PM
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A guy named David Plotz is doing that online, blogging the Bible. Pretty interesting synopsis of all those crazy garbled old myths and legends.

http://www.slate.com/id/2150150/

I find it utterly amazing that people can still base their entire worldview on this stuff. It has to be the world's most successful PR campaign.


billl7


Nov 10, 2006, 4:33 PM
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So I'm saying people need to take their time with it to try and get at the meaning.
Okay. I agree that Christians need to study it more thoroughly. However, it would completely different to say that a non-believer will eventually believe if they just study it enough.

coloredchalker,

Because the church I attended does what it does (e.g., the marque) I consider them as first class the same as I consider c4c to be first class. Clearly, they are doing what they believe is paramount, sticking to the given framework, and are not hiding behind what's nice or what's not nice. And witnessing to arbitrary people, even arbitrary minors doesn't shock me given that we're talking about eternity here. It was just an example of the evangelical nature of the new testament.

And I liked your analogy about talking about climbing. But it is just an analogy and is quite limited considering the profound and global issues that have been discussed in this thread. That is, for me this is not just about minor irritants. To say it another way there is the following question.

Which has significantly more often led a people into war or resulted in the murder of innocents: religion or climbing?

The rest of the unanswered arrows you have sent my way are lost.

Bill L


billl7


Nov 10, 2006, 5:26 PM
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On election day this week, the church's marque had: "Give God what is right - not what is left." It changes once a week.


bluedubbed


Nov 13, 2006, 8:34 AM
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Even after 7 pages, I still love Satan.

For all those that aspire to obtain OT VIII and love Xenu:
http://www.xenu.net/

You all are nothing but greedy cults.


qdiggety


Nov 13, 2006, 8:55 AM
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Shouldn't this whole thing be moved to "The Soapbox"?


reno


Nov 13, 2006, 9:08 AM
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Shouldn't this whole thing be moved to "The Soapbox"?

Done.

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