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coloredchalker


Nov 13, 2006, 9:56 AM
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Re: [billl7] Climbing for Christ [In reply to]
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[reply][quote]So I'm saying people need to take their time with it to try and get at the meaning.
[/quote]
Okay. I agree that Christians need to study it more thoroughly. However, it would completely different to say that a non-believer will eventually believe if they just study it enough.

coloredchalker,

Because the church I attended does what it does (e.g., the marque) I consider them as first class the same as I consider c4c to be first class. Clearly, they are doing what they believe is paramount, sticking to the given framework, and are not hiding behind what's nice or what's not nice. And witnessing to arbitrary people, even arbitrary minors doesn't shock me given that we're talking about eternity here. It was just an example of the evangelical nature of the new testament.

And I liked your analogy about talking about climbing. But it is just an analogy and is quite limited considering the profound and global issues that have been discussed in this thread. That is, for me this is not just about minor irritants. To say it another way there is the following question.

Which has significantly more often led a people into war or resulted in the murder of innocents: religion or climbing?

The rest of the unanswered arrows you have sent my way are lost.

Bill L[/reply]

Bill,
yes the analogy is just away of looking at it, not bullet proof. There are plenty of people on this sight that are pretty passionate about polotics and don't hesitate to discuss that in threads, but nobodies saying they shouldn't post here. Whats the difference? Politics are certaintly as divisive as religion, if not more so.
And to answer your question I' going to go with religions. Though that's just a hunch.


billl7


Nov 13, 2006, 11:14 AM
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Re: [coloredchalker] Climbing for Christ [In reply to]
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In reply to:
coloredchalker: There are plenty of people on this sight that are pretty passionate about polotics and don't hesitate to discuss that in threads, but nobodies saying they shouldn't post here. Whats the difference?
Did I say one should hesitate about religious posts? I don't think so. But, obviously, I wish they wouldn't and sympathize with those who take offense at being evangelized on RC.com.
In reply to:
coloredchalker: And to answer your question I' going to go with religions. Though that's just a hunch.
That would be my hunch as well.

Bill L


bigfatrock


Nov 13, 2006, 12:39 PM
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Re: [hbeimel] Climbing for Christ [In reply to]
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Why not just go to the crag and climb with people. Be their friend and don’t try to cram it down their throat. If the opportunity arises to share your faith then do it. Put away your agenda and do as Christ commanded you to...just love people. It boggles my mind that people start "Christian Groups". You live in a world where most people don't believe what you do, get used to it, and accept it. Stop being a separatist and then trying to convert.

p.s.Climbing Magazine had an article a few months ago about “men of the cloth” whom were mountaineers and the amount of time the spent pioneering.


(This post was edited by bigfatrock on Nov 13, 2006, 12:43 PM)


quiteatingmysteak


Nov 13, 2006, 2:34 PM
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Re: [bigfatrock] Climbing for Christ [In reply to]
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Be their friend and don’t try to cram it down their throat.


this to me always tends to be the main reason people dont trust the church. I hear about fears of "hidden agendas" and scandals turning people away.... it makes even more sense that christianity is such a glorious thing, because there are so may people out to get us :O!

the scandals and perverts are a very, very small proportion of the church, be it catholic or not. Probably as small or even smaller than when these things occur in the real life. how many sex offenders ARENT catholic priests? some things get turned up really big.


we are a pretty intelligent nation, or so we say that we are. Yet we dont assume that every muslim is a terrorist. I know your parents DRAGGED you to go to church as a kid and you railed against the anti-drug speeches through your teenage years... but i promise that religion isn't "out to get you" :D

personally in my experience i have fed homeless, built homes in mexico, repaired fences, cleaned up neighborhoods, helped save a street from a mudslide that spent 3 days destroying a neighborhood, and all without a "ok now you ahve to go to my church because i helped you." i did these things through my church because they were good and decent things to do. i probably havent seen mroe than a handful of those people i affected since, but i iknow i affected each and every one of em.


my 2c


dingus


Nov 13, 2006, 3:06 PM
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Re: [quiteatingmysteak] Climbing for Christ [In reply to]
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Question: Are C4C climbers more, or less, likely to take on dangerous risks in their climbing activities?

DMT


dingus


Nov 13, 2006, 3:09 PM
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Re: [quiteatingmysteak] Climbing for Christ [In reply to]
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In reply to:
we are a pretty intelligent nation, or so we say that we are. Yet we dont assume that every muslim is a terrorist.

Maybe you don't. I assure you, not I. But I think you can make book on the fact that many Americans, god fearing and heathen alike, most certainly DO consider every Muslim a terrorist - starting with our commander in chief.

DMT


billl7


Nov 13, 2006, 3:29 PM
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Re: [quiteatingmysteak] Climbing for Christ [In reply to]
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bigfatrock,

I agree that the church does not have a corner on weirdo's. And it wasn't "hidden agendas" and scandals that turned me away. Nor was it being forced to go to church by my parents nor was it the anti-drug speeches. Honest.

For me, the finale was when I rejected the temporal-mistake-eternal-isolation thing. I suppose though that the justifications you mentioned are easier for a witnessing Christian to chip away at.

Bill L


htotsu


Nov 13, 2006, 3:52 PM
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Re: [billl7] Climbing for Christ [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Bill wrote:
For me, the finale was when I rejected the temporal-mistake-eternal-isolation thing.
Hi Bill. Could you elaborate on this?


In reply to:
bigfatrock wrote:
Put away your agenda and do as Christ commanded you to...just love people.
Are you really unaware that it was Christ who put forth the command to go and share the story?

In reply to:
It boggles my mind that people start "Christian Groups". You live in a world where most people don't believe what you do, get used to it, and accept it. Stop being a separatist and then trying to convert.
Yet another one where you can replace "Christian" with "Rockclimbing," or just about anything else. It boggles your mind when it's something that you are not a part of - nice. How about this - you don't tell me what to do, and I don't tell you what to believe. How about we each get to choose. Mmkay?

(This post was edited by htotsu on Nov 13, 2006, 3:53 PM)


ter_bee


Nov 13, 2006, 4:58 PM
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Re: [dingus] Climbing for Christ [In reply to]
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Question: Are C4C climbers more, or less, likely to take on dangerous risks in their climbing activities?

DMT

wow, a great question. doesn't anyone want to answer?

--
i'd like to offer my apologies to the op for a thread that was responded to by a larger-than-target audience. you were not, i believe, prosteletyzing; those of us who rightly take offense to prosteletyzing needn't have felt so obligated to lash out. i think.

i'd also like to apologize for being one of those inappropriate responders. as much as i like cosmiccragsman, i'd rather have (that'd be gay) sex with marge schott than join your group. and i think marge is dead.


billl7


Nov 13, 2006, 5:03 PM
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Re: [htotsu] Climbing for Christ [In reply to]
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Bill wrote:
For me, the finale was when I rejected the temporal-mistake-eternal-isolation thing.
Hi Bill. Could you elaborate on this?
Hi htotsu,

Sure. Create a fallible species with a finite lifespan. Let them chose what to believe. Send them to hell for eternity if they don't choose The One belief system.

Bill L


pinktricam


Nov 13, 2006, 5:08 PM
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Re: [billl7] Climbing for Christ [In reply to]
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Bill wrote:
For me, the finale was when I rejected the temporal-mistake-eternal-isolation thing.
Hi Bill. Could you elaborate on this?
Hi htotsu,

Sure. Create a fallible species with a finite lifespan. Let them chose what to believe. Send them to hell for eternity if they don't choose The One belief system.

Bill L
Bill, man and woman was originally created in a perfect and sinless state with the ability to commune directly with God, then came the 'fall'.


billl7


Nov 13, 2006, 5:19 PM
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Re: [pinktricam] Climbing for Christ [In reply to]
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Bill wrote:
For me, the finale was when I rejected the temporal-mistake-eternal-isolation thing.
Hi Bill. Could you elaborate on this?
Hi htotsu,

Sure. Create a fallible species with a finite lifespan. Let them chose what to believe. Send them to hell for eternity if they don't choose The One belief system.

Bill L
Bill, man and woman was originally created in a perfect and sinless state with the ability to commune directly with God, then came the 'fall'.
That's what I recall as well. Then, much much later, anyone can choose to believe in The Way or not.


htotsu


Nov 13, 2006, 5:40 PM
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Re: [billl7] Climbing for Christ [In reply to]
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Bill wrote:
For me, the finale was when I rejected the temporal-mistake-eternal-isolation thing.
Hi Bill. Could you elaborate on this?
Hi htotsu,

Sure. Create a fallible species with a finite lifespan. Let them chose what to believe. Send them to hell for eternity if they don't choose The One belief system.

Bill L
Oh, I see what you mean. Well, first off, I want to say that I used to hesitate about that exact same thing. It's a matter of faith, but it was a big decision. I had to decide whether I believed what Jesus had to say, and one of those things was "I am the way, the truth and the life." He didn't say "I am a way, a truth and a life." That was a turning point for me. It is one that I know is not easy to accept, because it was not easy for me. I know exactly how that notion sounds to a non-believer because I was one. But I had to make a choice.

I will say that the "Let them choose what to believe" and punish them if they choose the wrong thing issue that you raise is also not easy. But it's like having children. You love them ferociously. You do what you can to tell them what you want them to know about the world, and you want them to trust you. But you can't ever make them do what you say, and you can't make them believe you. They have to make their own decisions. And consequences follow. That is just the way of life. You can point out the pitfalls of certain choices to them until you turn blue, but you cannot - as much as it may pain you to see it happen before your eyes - keep them from making those choices.

I know that it is not on an eternal scale, so there really is no fully-appropriate analogy here. Still, is it wrong to bring children into the world just because you do not know what their ultimate choices will be?

(This post was edited by htotsu on Nov 13, 2006, 5:41 PM)


jt512


Nov 13, 2006, 6:34 PM
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Re: [htotsu] Climbing for Christ [In reply to]
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Bill wrote:
For me, the finale was when I rejected the temporal-mistake-eternal-isolation thing.
Hi Bill. Could you elaborate on this?
Hi htotsu,

Sure. Create a fallible species with a finite lifespan. Let them chose what to believe. Send them to hell for eternity if they don't choose The One belief system.

Bill L
Oh, I see what you mean. Well, first off, I want to say that I used to hesitate about that exact same thing. It's a matter of faith, but it was a big decision. I had to decide whether I believed what Jesus had to say, and one of those things was "I am the way, the truth and the life." He didn't say "I am a way, a truth and a life." That was a turning point for me.

Yes, it was the point at which you turned off your rational mind.

Jay


billl7


Nov 13, 2006, 6:44 PM
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Re: [jt512] Climbing for Christ [In reply to]
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jt512: Yes, it was the point at which you turned off your rational mind.
BBBBbbbbbbooooooooooo!


blondgecko
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Nov 13, 2006, 7:21 PM
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Re: [htotsu] Climbing for Christ [In reply to]
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I am the way, the truth and the life.

If I had a dollar for every person in history who's made a similar claim to that...


billl7


Nov 13, 2006, 7:24 PM
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Re: [htotsu] Climbing for Christ [In reply to]
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In reply to:
I know that it is not on an eternal scale, so there really is no fully-appropriate analogy here.
It is worse than that. There is no issue at all with my kids "believing" that I am in essence their father (which, interestingly, may not be the case for kids adopted late in their lives). I won't even begin to dig into kids out there who really ought to reject their parent's instructions/wishes/desires - or at least some of it.
In reply to:
Still, is it wrong to bring children into the world just because you do not know what their ultimate choices will be?
No - we probably agree with that. But I also suspect that neither of us would reject our biological or adopted child for eternity just for the reason that the child rejected me/you as parent for the remainder of his/her relatively short life (no threat intended to my kids if they are reading this Wink ).

Bill L


squamishdirtbag


Nov 13, 2006, 7:49 PM
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Mideast violence is fueled by religion. I can't even think of a way to dispute this?? CAn you


c4c


Nov 14, 2006, 5:09 AM
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Re: [dingus] Climbing for Christ [In reply to]
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Question: Are C4C climbers more, or less, likely to take on dangerous risks in their climbing activities?

DMT
Dingus why are you in all of my threads???? Smile This is a real good question. I don't think that their belief in God will change the amount of risk they take. I have a confidence that I am not going to die until its my time but that doesn't mean that I am careless. Most of our members do tend to be on the more ....cough.conservative sideWink


c4c


Nov 14, 2006, 5:12 AM
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Re: [ter_bee] Climbing for Christ [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Question: Are C4C climbers more, or less, likely to take on dangerous risks in their climbing activities?

DMT

wow, a great question. doesn't anyone want to answer?

--
i'd like to offer my apologies to the op for a thread that was responded to by a larger-than-target audience. you were not, i believe, prosteletyzing; those of us who rightly take offense to prosteletyzing needn't have felt so obligated to lash out. i think.

i'd also like to apologize for being one of those inappropriate responders. as much as i like cosmiccragsman, i'd rather have (that'd be gay) sex with marge schott than join your group. and i think marge is dead.
Apology accepted. And don't join if you don't want to.


c4c


Nov 14, 2006, 5:15 AM
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Re: [blondgecko] Climbing for Christ [In reply to]
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I am the way, the truth and the life.

If I had a dollar for every person in history who's made a similar claim to that...

I think that you would have a dollar.


coloredchalker


Nov 14, 2006, 5:47 AM
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Re: [squamishdirtbag] Climbing for Christ [In reply to]
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Mideast violence is fueled by religion. I can't even think of a way to dispute this?? CAn you

I don't think anybody would dispute your statement.

Does God send people to hell? That's a pretty important question to answer, and I'll use an analogy (my apologies) to illustrate how I think about it.
God has a big house that he is inviting people into. To get in you just have to, first of all, know the owner of the house and secondly, enter the house the way he tells you to, 2 easy things. Now if you choose not to get to know the owner of the house or try to enter the house a different way you'll be prevented from getting in to the house. Because you have made a choice not to do the necessary things.
So if you end up outside of Gods house, through the choices you made, then you will be in hell. Hell would be anything outside of Gods house.
God is not willing that anyone should choose to stay outside of his house but that all should come in. (to paraphrase).


billl7


Nov 14, 2006, 6:57 AM
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Re: [coloredchalker] Climbing for Christ [In reply to]
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How does "2 easy things" jive with "few are chosen" and something about the difficulty of a camel getting through the eye of a needle (or maybe that's low gate of a city)?


coloredchalker


Nov 14, 2006, 8:02 AM
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How does "2 easy things" jive with "few are chosen" and something about the difficulty of a camel getting through the eye of a needle (or maybe that's low gate of a city)?

Good questions
"Easy", because it's not a matter of a long list of do's and don'ts. "obey all these commands and then maybe I'll let you in", nope.

"Many are called", every one is invited into the house, "but few are chosen", few want to enter the right way and so God chooses to not let them in through the wrong way. In the cotext of the story in Matthew 22:1-14 (one place this verse is found, it is also found in Matt.20:16) A man is throwing a party and he invites his friends to come in but the friends refuse or are too busy... (analogus to God inviting the Jews into his house). So the man then goes and invites any one who wants to, to come in... (analogus to God inviting nonjews into his house) some respond to the mans invitation. The man finds one person who responded to the invitation but didn't come in the right way (in Jesus' parable here, the guest didn't come dressed properly) and so he gets escorted out of the party.
It is the same thing as I was saying: you can only get into Gods house (the mans feast in this parable) by comming the correct way. If you come the correct way nothingelse matters.

It is "camel through the eye of a needle", and the story is speaking about the challenge that rich, wealthy, people have with obeying God and trusting him instead of relying on their wealth. For example- a poor, street person is more likely to turn to God and say "I trust you that there is something better after this life than what I'm experiencing now" compared to a rich person who can easily say "I'm just going to use my money to provide the best life on earth I possibly can, who cares about what happens afterwards". Also the rich have a greater responsibility to do something with what God has given them, "to whom much has been given much will be expected" but for them to enter Gods house they still just have to do 2 things.

Maybe this creates more questions than it answers. Crazy


squamishdirtbag


Nov 14, 2006, 8:47 AM
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Re: [coloredchalker] Climbing for Christ [In reply to]
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Mideast violence is fueled by religion. I can't even think of a way to dispute this?? CAn you

I don't think anybody would dispute your statement.

Does God send people to hell? That's a pretty important question to answer, and I'll use an analogy (my apologies) to illustrate how I think about it.
God has a big house that he is inviting people into. To get in you just have to, first of all, know the owner of the house and secondly, enter the house the way he tells you to, 2 easy things. Now if you choose not to get to know the owner of the house or try to enter the house a different way you'll be prevented from getting in to the house. Because you have made a choice not to do the necessary things.
So if you end up outside of Gods house, through the choices you made, then you will be in hell. Hell would be anything outside of Gods house.
God is not willing that anyone should choose to stay outside of his house but that all should come in. (to paraphrase).

your post doesn't mean fuck all about my quote, what i mean is religion is clearly causing suffering in our world. How can it be justified????? So a muslim walks around saying ya ali did thia and that, then a chistin walks by says jesus did this yadaya god. And from an outsiders view its lunacy because you can't both be right. Theres only one RIGHT GOD IS DEAD

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