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harihari
Nov 19, 2006, 8:13 AM
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Ok, what do you all think? I have watched myself and others climb things on TR. I notice two things: a) top-roping makes us do moves in ways which would never work on lead. IE laybacking super thin tips cracks-- you would never do this cos you could never place proper gear. b) top roping makes us stop thinking about moves and risk and makes us climb inefficiently. I made this resolution some years ago-- if a route takes gear, I will only lead it. I will not top-rope. I woudl rather risk falls on trad gear than top-rope, because I find that it is only leading which focusses and clearsw my head an dmakes me really step into it. Obviosuly I have not climbed grit death routes where there is zero room for errror! It's not like I'm a hardman or anything, but I was wondering, what do you think for telling beginners? We always say "oh top-ropes tons of stuff!" I say, bag that-- soon as you can, start on the sharp end.
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coastal_climber
Nov 21, 2006, 1:09 AM
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Very good analogy. I myself prefer leading over TR. I find that it changes the whole aspect of the climb, or climbing. For someone starting out, I would personally recommend TR, as it teaches the basics of moving up the route. I went from TR(inside) to lead(inside), then to TR(outside), then lead (outside) in one year, and I really learned a lot. I guess its also what you personally want to do. >Cam
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zeke_sf
Nov 22, 2006, 12:52 AM
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I think climbing is a big enough game to accomodate both top ropers as well as leaders. I waited to lead and it has definitely taken a bigger effort to get my lead head proper. not having a real mentor when I started out, I kind of learned to climb by trial and error, so toproping was a good venue for that. the other day at a local crag, I saw a guy who took leading WAY too lightly. he was cimbing up to the first bolt as if he was on toprope already, making big, dynamic moves that were as likely to end with him slipping as making the clip. the fall would have been an ugly roll down a steep gully. his belayer and I got him to slow down and actually use plentiful hand and footholds he was passing up in favor of blind flailing. I guess his response to anxiety, unlike mine, is to go even faster and more uncontrolled. he eventually got to the first bolt and up the climb, but it seemed as if he had no concept of the risks he put himself (and belayer) through. he told me it was one of his first sport climbs and I know his belayer was less experienced than he. all's well that ends well? we all get in over our heads sometimes, but I think beginners should know the risks associated with all forms of climbing, especially those inherent to climbing up to the first bolt/placement. other than that, I think leading as much as possible is an admirable goal, although I definitely don't turn down a toprope if it's convenient and I'm having a "high gravity" day.
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hangerlessbolt
Nov 28, 2006, 9:24 AM
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As long as you don't TR my lead and then tell me how easy it was...I won't ram a #10 hex up your rectum, girth-hitch your privates, and rap-bolt your forehead Other than that...TR, lead, beat your pud...whatever...just enjoy being where you are, doing what you're doing
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jt512
Nov 29, 2006, 1:13 AM
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harihari wrote: Ok, what do you all think? I have watched myself and others climb things on TR. I notice two things: a) top-roping makes us do moves in ways which would never work on lead. IE laybacking super thin tips cracks-- you would never do this cos you could never place proper gear. b) top roping makes us stop thinking about moves and risk and makes us climb inefficiently. Many climbers make these same claims, but for me, if anything, it has always been the other way around: on toprope I find it easier to stay focused on the climbing; after all, what else is there to focus on? And if I'm more focused on the climbing, I'm more likely to be more focused on climbing more efficiently; after all, what else about climbing is there to focus on? You claim that TRing you do moves that you wouldn't do on lead. Your example (the layback moves) notwithstanding, are you sure that you're not climbing too cautiously on lead. Maybe on TR you are willing to do thinner, dicier, or more dynamic moves; whereas, on lead, you look for less risky ways to climb the same section of the route. Perhaps you even mistakenly believe the latter to the be the more efficient approach of the two. Usually, it isn't. One of the big breakthroughs in my climbing came when I realized that the riskier, more more dynamic climbing I would do while TRing actually was the more efficient way to climb, and I started to strive to to climb the same way on lead. Jay
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saxfiend
Nov 30, 2006, 4:58 PM
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jt512 wrote: Many climbers make these same claims, but for me, if anything, it has always been the other way around: on toprope I find it easier to stay focused on the climbing; after all, what else is there to focus on? And if I'm more focused on the climbing, I'm more likely to be more focused on climbing more efficiently; after all, what else about climbing is there to focus on? You claim that TRing you do moves that you wouldn't do on lead. Your example (the layback moves) notwithstanding, are you sure that you're not climbing too cautiously on lead. Maybe on TR you are willing to do thinner, dicier, or more dynamic moves; whereas, on lead, you look for less risky ways to climb the same section of the route. Perhaps you even mistakenly believe the latter to the be the more efficient approach of the two. Usually, it isn't. One of the big breakthroughs in my climbing came when I realized that the riskier, more more dynamic climbing I would do while TRing actually was the more efficient way to climb, and I started to strive to to climb the same way on lead. Jay Nice analysis; too bad we no longer have trophies. JL
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arnoilgner
Dec 6, 2006, 5:04 AM
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Hi harihari, Your comments: a) top-roping makes us do moves in ways which would never work on lead. IE laybacking super thin tips cracks-- you would never do this cos you could never place proper gear. b) top roping makes us stop thinking about moves and risk and makes us climb inefficiently. ----------- I think toproping can make us sloppy or efficient. Depends on us and what we focus on. I do feel that beginners should lead as soon as possible, if that is something they eventually want to do. I say this because leaders are more attentive to the risks they take. I think this is also what you are suggesting. However, you cannot lead everything. What will you do on a multi pitch? Will you force your partner to follow each pitch or will you swap leads? arno
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kydd76
Dec 8, 2006, 5:56 PM
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I think you can get a lot out of top roping. I do feel leading is the best, and try to lead as much as I can. But feel there is a lot to learn in TR, first you can learn moves you would never try on lead. For fear of fall, bad pro or just trying something totally new to you in movement. I have a lot of respect for head pointing I have used this technique to do highball problems on many occasions. I also like TRing when ice climbing. It takes a lot of stress out of my mind when ice climbing, which for me can be high when at new area, or do to bad ice. I have also found myself leading, when I will use a movement I learned on TR. I personally have found TR to be a great learning tool. Plus it is fun to climb with little stress do to fear of falling.
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jt512
Dec 9, 2006, 5:38 AM
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kydd76 wrote: I think you can get a lot out of top roping. I do feel leading is the best, and try to lead as much as I can. But feel there is a lot to learn in TR, first you can learn moves you would never try on lead. For fear of fall, bad pro or just trying something totally new to you in movement. I have a lot of respect for head pointing I have used this technique to do highball problems on many occasions. I also like TRing when ice climbing. It takes a lot of stress out of my mind when ice climbing, which for me can be high when at new area, or do to bad ice. I have also found myself leading, when I will use a movement I learned on TR. I personally have found TR to be a great learning tool. Plus it is fun to climb with little stress do to fear of falling. Your profile shows a one number-grade difference between your sport TR and lead levels. Re-read my post. Any move you can do on TR you can do on lead. This is an important concept to internalize. Jay
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kydd76
Dec 10, 2006, 4:40 PM
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Jt512 you are right, if you can TR with out falling are hanging you can lead it. But you as well as I know it is easier to say than to do in practice. Since when leading there are many more thing going on at once, in action i.e. clipping, rope drag, rest, or mostly the real crux when climbing the head game. When on TR I climb trying new things, thinking about things like where is best rest and making movements smooth or dynamic. Which was the point I was making, TR is a great learning tool. As with my profile, I don’t lead much past 11b/c on sight sport, yet I have been able to pull 12a on TR on a few routes. I would not say I flashed them even if I didn’t fall or hang on the rope, so I would say onsight TR, which is not even like a lead. Hard, grueling, pump fests for me, so I felt they helped me learn new skills none the less. Second is every one I have climbed had skill set they are better at, cracks, slabs, faces, overhang, and on and on. I think when you find yourself out of the comfort zone, most people climb less than at there best grade. Since other mental thoughts come in to play, fears, lack of focus, are something as simple as holding your breath. All these things will make you climbing less than your best most of the time. I do think you are right with the thought that I could lead sport better. If I was to get comfortable with the idea, I can do it on TR, so there for I can lead it. I thank you for the support, and thought.
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verticon
Feb 13, 2007, 9:14 AM
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jt512 wrote: ...on toprope I find it easier to stay focused on the climbing; after all, what else is there to focus on? And if I'm more focused on the climbing, I'm more likely to be more focused on climbing more efficiently; after all, what else about climbing is there to focus on? This is one of my excuses... I claim to be motivated by the movement on the rock, by solving problems that apear while climbing. So, when I want to climb a route I get that thought: what's the point in leading ? The movements will be the same, the problems will not change and it's more enjoyable to climb without having to stop to clip bolts or to drag that "heavy" rope. So, sometimes I end up TR-ing. I really have to kick myself to start leading the route, and once I am on lead everything goes smooth. I just "enjoy the journey". It seems that it's just difficult to quit my comfort zone (top rope).
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arnoilgner
Feb 13, 2007, 1:54 PM
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hi verticon. your comment: what's the point in leading ? The movements will be the same, the problems will not change. -- the problem solving is much different because the consequence has changed. because of this you are much more attentive to how you climb and how you commit, both of which are critical parts of problem solving. with that said, of course there is benefit in toproping. it really boils down to if we value learning, which only occurs outside our comfort zones, or if we just want to stay within our comfort zones. if we are honest with ourselves about this then we can learn while leading or toproping. arno
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verticon
Feb 15, 2007, 4:06 PM
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arnoilgner wrote: hi verticon. your comment: what's the point in leading ? The movements will be the same, the problems will not change. -- the problem solving is much different because the consequence has changed. because of this you are much more attentive to how you climb and how you commit, both of which are critical parts of problem solving. with that said, of course there is benefit in toproping. it really boils down to if we value learning, which only occurs outside our comfort zones, or if we just want to stay within our comfort zones. if we are honest with ourselves about this then we can learn while leading or toproping. arno I'm perfectly aware of the differences. I was speaking about the way my Ego (dragon-with-one-thousand-heads...) is sometimes rising a head to whisper in my mind: don't lead, it's gonna be hard, just TR it, it's nearly the same and more enjoyable.
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fearlessclimber
Feb 18, 2007, 3:26 PM
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lead climbing is what makes a man, toproping is lame
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verticon
Feb 20, 2007, 10:32 PM
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fearlessclimber wrote: lead climbing is what makes a man, toproping is lame Oh, yeah ?! Here's something from your profile that shows a big difference between your level on lead and on TR: Trad: 5.11a 5.11d Ice: WI4 WI5 Aid: A3+ A5 Snow: D TD Explain that, you MAN !
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curt
Feb 21, 2007, 2:01 AM
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Obviously, he's not yet a man. Curt
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crimpergirl
Feb 25, 2007, 3:52 PM
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Well, I've been leading for almost a decade now and I'm no man. Thank God.
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verticon
Feb 25, 2007, 5:38 PM
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crimpergirl wrote: Well, I've been leading for almost a decade now and I'm no man. Thank God. I've been leading for 2 1/2 decades now, i'm no girl (Thank God), I still TR sometimes, and I expect to find useful comments when I visit the RWW forum. Let me remind you, we were discussing whether or not TR is "stoopid". What do you think ? Do you TR sometimes ? When and why ? What's your opinion on this subject ? Let us learn from your "almost a decade" vast experience ! Thank you !
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crimpergirl
Feb 25, 2007, 6:42 PM
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Verticon: I was responding to the poster above who said that leading makes a man. Clearly, and luckily, leading doesn't make a man. This is what my 'vast' experience tells me. As far as whether toproping is stupid, I don't think so. There are many ways one can enjoy and gain positive experiences from climbing. I personally would never suggest one is stupid while another isn't. But I also wouldn't be bothered if someone else expressed their opinion. Is this informative enough for a post in the Rock Warrior's forum? Was it more informative than suggesting that leading makes a man? If I have failed in the informative-only-test, please forward the posting criteria to me and I will adhere to these policies in the future. edit: My "thank god" comment was not intended to be an insult to being a man. It only represented that I would be a really creepy man, breasts and all. edit2: I didn't respond to one of your questions. Do I toprope? Heck yeah I toprope sometimes. In fact, the most pleasing climbing I've ever done was a multipitch climb in which I followed every single pitch. Read about it here: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=255575&msg=255575#msg255575. I also followed every single pitch when we climbed at Whitesides (more cool photos here: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=313825&msg=314098#msg314098). I also top roped a lot after I broke my arm. Like I mentioned above, I feel there is nothing wrong with toproping for myself. But I don't speak for everyone and I certainly don't wish to set criteria for anyone but myself.
(This post was edited by crimpergirl on Feb 25, 2007, 6:56 PM)
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crimpergirl
Feb 26, 2007, 1:14 AM
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Ah Curt, maybe that is why I've not become a man yet.
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dredsovrn
Feb 26, 2007, 11:12 PM
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I was against top roping for a time when I first started leading. I don't really have a rule for it anymore. I essentially top rope when I follow a pitch. If you have a good partner, you can't lead everything. Sometimes I top rope a route for fun. The rope is there, and I don't feel invested in the lead. Sometimes it is fun to throw a rope on a climb that I think is well outside my current range so I can just focus on the movement, and maybe get stronger.
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crimpergirl
Feb 28, 2007, 2:49 AM
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I agree! Not trying to be a man. I continue to be happy that after almost a decade of leading (aka 'vast experience'), I have not become a man. Thank God.
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amikros
Mar 7, 2007, 7:36 PM
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to be fair, i only TR because I've been climbing once a week for two hours at best, for about four months now. TR is really the only way I can learn rigt now... that and if someone had me lead the first time I climbed, instead of TR, I would have just untied and hiked back to the car...
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dropkicked
Sep 12, 2007, 5:57 AM
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When I first started climbing harder grades I was all for the lead but every move I seemed to do was small and extremely static for fear of peeling off and in turn innificient with many more lock offs and clipping high bolts from way down. Eventually I began to try a couple of routes on TR, after I had sent the route in order to clean it. I found many better ways to do moves and forced myself to use those moves on lead making myself more confident and more efficient on rock. As for those who say it is bad to lead like you are on TR, I say it is simply bad to flail on rock, and I am happy moving at about 20 moves per minute during actual climbing time (excluding route finding and rests).
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desertwanderer81
Oct 11, 2007, 5:14 AM
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to each their own. There is definately something to be said of getting in the zone in a great lead. Then again there's something to be said on just relaxing and TR'ing something insanely hard. Whatever you like best and are in the mood for at the time.
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ZackP
Oct 12, 2007, 9:02 AM
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I started TRing and moved on to leading from there. Which do i prefer Leading but both are great in their own way. Running with a group sometimes you have to do some TRing to warm up or so the less mature climbers can get theirs too ya know. So bottom line No its not stupid.
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rocklobster420
Feb 1, 2008, 3:27 AM
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jt512 wrote: harihari wrote: Ok, what do you all think? I have watched myself and others climb things on TR. I notice two things: a) top-roping makes us do moves in ways which would never work on lead. IE laybacking super thin tips cracks-- you would never do this cos you could never place proper gear. b) top roping makes us stop thinking about moves and risk and makes us climb inefficiently. Many climbers make these same claims, but for me, if anything, it has always been the other way around: on toprope I find it easier to stay focused on the climbing; after all, what else is there to focus on? And if I'm more focused on the climbing, I'm more likely to be more focused on climbing more efficiently; after all, what else about climbing is there to focus on? You claim that TRing you do moves that you wouldn't do on lead. Your example (the layback moves) notwithstanding, are you sure that you're not climbing too cautiously on lead. Maybe on TR you are willing to do thinner, dicier, or more dynamic moves; whereas, on lead, you look for less risky ways to climb the same section of the route. Perhaps you even mistakenly believe the latter to the be the more efficient approach of the two. Usually, it isn't. One of the big breakthroughs in my climbing came when I realized that the riskier, more more dynamic climbing I would do while TRing actually was the more efficient way to climb, and I started to strive to to climb the same way on lead. I completely agree with you, and that was my first thought. The other weekend I lead a 5.9 slab route (dont hate, still learning), this route was about 120 feet up where as there were only 4 bolts and it was waaaay run out. I lead it first and I was kinda sketched out but eventually finished it. The second time I TRed' it and for about half the climb I simply crawled up it with a flat hand and no looking at foot placement, which I certainly wouldnt have done on lead possibly pending a 20-30 foot grinding slab fall. So I definitely agree with you, when I TR I get more dialed in, rather than on a lead I try and avoid brazen stuff and take my time.
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rocklobster420
Feb 1, 2008, 3:41 AM
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dropkicked wrote: When I first started climbing harder grades I was all for the lead but every move I seemed to do was small and extremely static for fear of peeling off and in turn innificient with many more lock offs and clipping high bolts from way down. Eventually I began to try a couple of routes on TR, after I had sent the route in order to clean it. I found many better ways to do moves and forced myself to use those moves on lead making myself more confident and more efficient on rock. As for those who say it is bad to lead like you are on TR, I say it is simply bad to flail on rock, and I am happy moving at about 20 moves per minute during actual climbing time (excluding route finding and rests). Those are my sentiments as well. The fear of screwing up a Lead, to me, outweighs the fear of screwing up a TR(not just because of the danger factor). You can TR a route that you have lead and find out beta that you didnt know before, hence making your lead climbing more efficient. Now Im at the stage where I can lead some good stuff, but if I top rope it later, then lead again, the lead becomes more comfortable. Not just the fact I have more experience on that specific climb, but also I feel more comfortable doing the specific moves on lead as I did on TR. I hope this makes sense to someone other than me LOL. If you are at a point where you can make questionable moves on lead, or do the same moves you would on TR while leading, then you are at another level past what Im describing.
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billcoe_
Feb 1, 2008, 6:07 AM
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hangerlessbolt wrote: As long as you don't TR my lead and then tell me how easy it was...I won't ram a #10 hex up your rectum, girth-hitch your privates, and rap-bolt your forehead Other than that...TR, lead, beat your pud...whatever...just enjoy being where you are, doing what you're doing Roberto: toooo funny!
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acacongua
Feb 10, 2008, 2:42 PM
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Anyone who just prefers to TR, should do that - provided they have a nice rope gun. My footwork is better on lead, but I love to do TR laps at the end of the day.
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Kevthecoffeeguy
Jan 24, 2010, 5:06 PM
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crimpergirl wrote: Verticon: I was responding to the poster above who said that leading makes a man. Clearly, and luckily, leading doesn't make a man. This is what my 'vast' experience tells me. As far as whether toproping is stupid, I don't think so. There are many ways one can enjoy and gain positive experiences from climbing. I personally would never suggest one is stupid while another isn't. But I also wouldn't be bothered if someone else expressed their opinion. Is this informative enough for a post in the Rock Warrior's forum? Was it more informative than suggesting that leading makes a man? If I have failed in the informative-only-test, please forward the posting criteria to me and I will adhere to these policies in the future. edit: My "thank god" comment was not intended to be an insult to being a man. It only represented that I would be a really creepy man, breasts and all. edit2: I didn't respond to one of your questions. Do I toprope? Heck yeah I toprope sometimes. In fact, the most pleasing climbing I've ever done was a multipitch climb in which I followed every single pitch. Read about it here: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=255575&msg=255575#msg255575. I also followed every single pitch when we climbed at Whitesides (more cool photos here: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=313825&msg=314098#msg314098). I also top roped a lot after I broke my arm. Like I mentioned above, I feel there is nothing wrong with toproping for myself. But I don't speak for everyone and I certainly don't wish to set criteria for anyone but myself. I really like your attitude! and your candor.
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mar_leclerc
Feb 12, 2010, 6:38 AM
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Leading is by far the best. More engaging and commiting. If the gear is good I will go for it on lead, or if it is of a grade I can manage sketchy pro on the OS. If I am working some 5.13 X I am going to TR hands down, I will fall off, and I don't like dying.
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kickasssoprano
Jul 22, 2010, 4:40 PM
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I think toproping can be really useful for leading, not just figuring out beta, but for helping you to feel more confidant- I have HUGE fear problems with leading and if I can successfully toprope a route, I'm more likely to be able to lead it successfully because my brain knows it's possible and that I've done it before. Also, if I'm having a really bad lead day, I can toprope something really hard and then not feel like such a lame-o anymore.
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punk_rocker333
Aug 29, 2010, 11:41 PM
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When reading this post I was surprised to see the number of people down playing the importance of TR ing routes. I for one think that for crack climbing it is an important tool in the learning process. My first trip to Indian Creek really would have been a lot less enjoyable and less conducive to learning if not for toproping. Ring locks, cupped hands, off fists, stacking (etc) are techniques that feel so unnatural at first for most climbers that learning on top rope is nearly the only way to get a feel for crack areas like indian creek where technique is so important. Also, at the end of a day of climbing, why not take another run on TR to get your forearms burning one last time? It will only lead to more strength in the long run.
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spikeddem
Aug 29, 2010, 11:59 PM
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punk_rocker333 wrote: Also, at the end of a day of climbing, why not take another run on TR to get your forearms burning one last time? It will only lead to more strength in the long run. Because it is a more efficient use of your time to do it on lead. It's not like you're not going to get the same burn doing it on lead, and you will only help yourself to better acclimate to being on the sharp while pumped. Getting pumped on top-rope does very little to help your mental game when you're pumped on lead.
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punk_rocker333
Aug 30, 2010, 4:44 AM
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So Spikeddem, if you led a route, lowered, and had a chance to climb it again on TR before you pulled the rope you wouldn't take that opportunity? Now imagine you're at indian creek and this climb happens to be a perfect 140 foot splitter. I don't see why you wouldn't, especially if it was a very high quality climb that would improve your strength and technique. I agree that TR differs from leading in many ways but climbing is climbing. Having a strong body is equally important in climbing as a strong mind and TRing routes will do that.
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spikeddem
Aug 30, 2010, 1:21 PM
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punk_rocker333 wrote: So Spikeddem, if you led a route, lowered, and had a chance to climb it again on TR before you pulled the rope you wouldn't take that opportunity? Now imagine you're at indian creek and this climb happens to be a perfect 140 foot splitter. I don't see why you wouldn't, especially if it was a very high quality climb that would improve your strength and technique. I agree that TR differs from leading in many ways but climbing is climbing. Having a strong body is equally important in climbing as a strong mind and TRing routes will do that. It depends on what my goals are. Considering that this is being discussed in the Mental Training forum, I'd imagine that working on the mental game is the goal. That being the case, one should lead it, and not top-rope it. Moreover, you seem to imply that one can practice technique more readily on top-rope, that is just flat wrong. Sure, it may be the case if you have issues with your lead head, but that is only providing more reason to lead your climbs rather than TR them. I'm not sure I could disagree much more with the part that I bolded. Your statement claims that climbing is 50% physical and 50% mental (unless you want to add in luck or some other factor, but the physical and mental factors would still be equal in %). I'm afraid you won't find many people here that agree with your statement. Fact of the matter is you have offered no reason for top-roping the climb instead of leading it. Every single "advantage" you listed is present just as much in lead climbing as it is in TRing. Thus, like I said earlier, your time is better spent leading--assuming the goals align with what I stated earlier.
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punk_rocker333
Aug 30, 2010, 2:31 PM
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The rock warrior's way stresses how climbing, unlike most sports, is equally divided in the need for strength, technique, and mental abilities. Anyway, I don't want to bicker anymore on this forum. I can see that we won't agree. Thanks for you views.
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spikeddem
Aug 30, 2010, 2:36 PM
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punk_rocker333 wrote: The rock warrior's way stresses how climbing, unlike most sports, is equally divided in the need for strength, technique, and mental abilities. Anyway, I don't want to bicker anymore on this forum. I can see that we won't agree. Thanks for you views. Strength as important as technique? In any case, I'm not sure if you were thinking that I was saying that the mental game is a smaller portion than physical conditionining--if so, that's not how I meant to come off. I meant to suggest that the mental aspect is much greater.
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suprasoup
Aug 31, 2010, 4:26 AM
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spikeddem wrote: punk_rocker333 wrote: The rock warrior's way stresses how climbing, unlike most sports, is equally divided in the need for strength, technique, and mental abilities. Anyway, I don't want to bicker anymore on this forum. I can see that we won't agree. Thanks for you views. Strength as important as technique? In any case, I'm not sure if you were thinking that I was saying that the mental game is a smaller portion than physical conditionining--if so, that's not how I meant to come off. I meant to suggest that the mental aspect is much greater. Yes. We've all seen the gym noob burl his way up that 5.10 climb but have you ever seen a 5.7 climber technique his way up a 5.10? I think not. We all forget the importance of strength because most of us start out with more strength than technique and so only train technique. The further and further you go in climbing the more pronounced the need for both strength and technique. That said in regard to the original question. I climb exactly the same whether I'm bouldering, TRing or on the sharp end. jt512 is correct, if you're climbing differently when on TR than on lead then you may not be climbing at your most efficient. Me personally I hate leading. Perhaps it's because I'm the rope gun for everyone else. So when a good TR comes along I'm all over it.
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OCD
Sep 12, 2010, 1:12 AM
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do what Ever u want. U climb 4 U, they climb 4 themselves..climb live enjoy |
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spikeddem
Sep 13, 2010, 2:10 PM
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OCD wrote: do what Ever u want. U climb 4 U, they climb 4 themselves..climb live enjoy I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that OCD, in your case, does not stand for Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.
(This post was edited by spikeddem on Sep 13, 2010, 5:52 PM)
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jt512
Sep 13, 2010, 3:58 PM
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OCD wrote: do what Ever u want. U climb 4 U, they climb 4 themselves..climb live enjoy Learn to write like an adult. *plonk*
(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 13, 2010, 3:58 PM)
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tomtom
Sep 14, 2010, 11:16 PM
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jt512 wrote: OCD wrote: do what Ever u want. U climb 4 U, they climb 4 themselves..climb live enjoy Learn to write like an adult. *plonk* Learn not to judge. *splat*
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jt512
Sep 15, 2010, 12:15 AM
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tomtom wrote: jt512 wrote: OCD wrote: do what Ever u want. U climb 4 U, they climb 4 themselves..climb live enjoy Learn to write like an adult. *plonk* Learn not to judge. *splat* Well, at least I gave you three strikes. *plonk*
(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 15, 2010, 12:16 AM)
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ceebo
Mar 21, 2011, 12:38 AM
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harihari wrote: Ok, what do you all think? I have watched myself and others climb things on TR. I notice two things: a) top-roping makes us do moves in ways which would never work on lead. IE laybacking super thin tips cracks-- you would never do this cos you could never place proper gear. b) top roping makes us stop thinking about moves and risk and makes us climb inefficiently. I made this resolution some years ago-- if a route takes gear, I will only lead it. I will not top-rope. I woudl rather risk falls on trad gear than top-rope, because I find that it is only leading which focusses and clearsw my head an dmakes me really step into it. Obviosuly I have not climbed grit death routes where there is zero room for errror! It's not like I'm a hardman or anything, but I was wondering, what do you think for telling beginners? We always say "oh top-ropes tons of stuff!" I say, bag that-- soon as you can, start on the sharp end. Jay pretty much got my exact thoughts, but i feel like adding some more anyway. Most people will not admit they hate falling or have other fears in leading that hinder their focus > performance. I admit that i do not trust my partners and my lead climbing ability is suffering for it on bigger routes. In my mind, the higher i go the more severe the consequence is if they fuck it up and fail to stop a fall. As a result if you were to watch me lead a 10m 7c i am at the top efficiently moving with no hesitation to use big dynamics. I just do not register the consequence of a fall at this height. Watch me on a 25M 6c and within 5M of the top you would instantly see how static i become, resulting in fatigue and backing down. I have took many practice falls around this height to try and overcome my fear. But the problem is that they expect the fall, my fear is that when they don't expect it they fail to react in the right way and rope burn.. fast decent.. another dead/crippled climber. The fact is, until i have the guts to face this head on and take falls at such heights when they are not expecting it.. i will not be able to climb those high routes at the grade i know I'm able to do. I know what my problem is and I'm really forcing myself to over come it. Some people may not be able to do that just yet and TR is 1 option for them to slowly build up the guts to try. I do kind of agree with you in some ways though. If lead climbing was the only thing you could do.. people would be forced into facing their fears much earlier. On the other hand allot of people would simply say FUCK THAT.. and not climb at all. You just cant underestImate the role TR plays in opening up the climbing world to more people, who very well go on to leading.
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JoeHamilton
Aug 9, 2011, 4:55 PM
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I got a question. Say I lead a two pitch sport route, my partner is going to follow on both pitches, I get to the top of pitch one and set anachor for myself, and begin to belay my partner, pulling in the slack as he climbs. Isn't he on a top rope? Does this make him less then me?
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ceebo
Aug 15, 2011, 2:36 PM
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JoeHamilton wrote: I got a question. Say I lead a two pitch sport route, my partner is going to follow on both pitches, I get to the top of pitch one and set anachor for myself, and begin to belay my partner, pulling in the slack as he climbs. Isn't he on a top rope? Does this make him less then me? Your partner is not top roping he is cleaning. It is likely he will also have to find efficient positions to clean from. In top rope their is nothing to really consider other than the next few moves. The main differences is that a fall for him runs less risk of injury than a fall for you, the mental aspects of that are heavier on you. Another difference is that he gets to watch you climb first, so he may get sneak peaks of the best or worst way to climb the moves he was able to see you do. If they are not on sights and you both know the routes well, then the difference will be almost fully mental. You may ofc use a little extra energy to pull the rope before clipping, but that's barely worth mentioning unless their is super drag.
(This post was edited by ceebo on Aug 15, 2011, 2:38 PM)
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tolman_paul
Sep 13, 2011, 1:05 AM
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Toproping is just another technique, to say it is stupid or should be avoided once you start leading, I just don't think that is valid. If it isn't helping you climb the way you want, then by all means stop tr'n. But I'd say that every style of free climbing can help you, weather it be bouldering, or free soloing. Sometimes it's fun try out weird moves on a tr, I mean, climbing is still supposed to be fun, right?
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Qozux
Dec 5, 2011, 7:31 AM
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I agree. I mean, what's the point of climbing for nearly everyone? It's to enjoy going up the side of something in a way that most people wouldn't think of right? Like, maybe to climb? I'm trying to learn the lead game right now, so I don't feel comfortable comparing the two, but my goal is just to climb up something, challenge myself, and have a good time. I don't really care (yet) what style I'm doing. I'll TR, Sport, Lead (when I feel comfortable calling myself a lead climber), Boulder, Or hell IDK, build some sort of insane bubble air bag system that detects when I'm falling and cushions me from a fall (The bubble things in that terrible Speed Racer movie come to mind). Just show me a wall, let me feel like it's safeish, and I'll try and climb the damn thing. I don't really see the point in excluding TR because it's not as good of a training tool. I don't think anyone here is actually training for a life or death situation where their climbing skills are going to save the world right? You just climb because you enjoy it, and get better because it feels like leveling up a video game character in real life. Just my $.02.
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crjanow
Jan 22, 2012, 10:08 PM
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i think since you believe top roping is stupid then everyone should stop doing it even if they think its really fun and thats all they care about
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dagibbs
Jun 8, 2012, 4:17 PM
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suprasoup wrote: Yes. We've all seen the gym noob burl his way up that 5.10 climb but have you ever seen a 5.7 climber technique his way up a 5.10? I think not. That's the wrong comparison. Sure, I've seen the (physically) strong gym noob burl his way up a 5.10. I've also seen the the 65-year-old climber who is nowhere near at prime strength technique his way up a 5.10. (The old guy may be climbing 1-2 number grades below his peak, because he still has the technique, but he doesn't have the strength anymore.) So, if you're comparing and talking about high-end strength, then you also have to talk about high-end technique.
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Syd
Dec 5, 2012, 5:18 AM
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So you think Chris Sharma is "stoopid" (sic) ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMWc-CKshO8
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dagibbs
Dec 6, 2012, 2:39 AM
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Syd wrote: So you think Chris Sharma is "stoopid" (sic) ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMWc-CKshO8 I think you replied to me, when you may have meant to reply to the original poster.
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Syd
Dec 6, 2012, 4:04 AM
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My apologies. It was meant for the thread originator.
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virial
Feb 23, 2013, 3:08 AM
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any climbing is better than no climbing is what i would tell a new person. I would also say to take your time and you will learn when you are ready. regardless if it takes 0 topropes or an endless amount of top ropes. who knows maybee they will like to climb solo and leave all ropes.
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unabonger
Mar 23, 2013, 4:21 PM
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fearlessclimber wrote: lead climbing is what makes a man, toproping is lame Hilarious. You know how many fearless lead climbers I've known that do dumb shit like run out on bills, cheat on their wife, live on credit cards, and smoke their lunch in a bong? Quite a few. These examples aren't men, they are children. Lead climbing has absolutely zero bearing on your manhood. Toproping is actually the most manly form of climbing. No ego or bragging rights at stake, just you, the rock, and your best shot.
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