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price1869


Dec 12, 2006, 3:22 PM
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(mor)Man made climbing
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IMHO:
This is something that should have disappeared years ago, but people won't let it go.

Quit bitching about the Mormon Church quarrying stone in Little Cottonwood Canyon.

1. There are hundreds of problems/routes that wouldn't exist not only in LCC, but in a lot of other areas (anywhere that ends in "quarry"), if it weren't for men (glorified apes) who knocked the boulders down in the first place. Nearly all the boulders in LCC came from the Mormons at one point or another.

2. Access is pretty freaking good in LCC. Be grateful for what you are given and climb and have fun. If I had the best bouldering in the world in my yard, I doubt I'd be so willing to let just anyone come play. Seems like access is pretty good.

Price


(This post was edited by price1869 on Dec 12, 2006, 3:36 PM)


devils_advocate


Dec 12, 2006, 3:30 PM
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Re: [price1869] Man made climbing [In reply to]
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price1869 wrote:
If I had the best bouldering in the world in my yard, I doubt I'd be so willing to let just anyone come play.

Well that's because you're an ass. I would let everyone come play. Everyone except the Mormons that is.


chalker7


Dec 12, 2006, 3:42 PM
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Just out of curiousity, what interest does a religious organization have in quarrying operations. I'm not being a smartass, I just don't get it. Thanks.

Peace.
Colby.


kman


Dec 12, 2006, 3:45 PM
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chalker7 wrote:
Just out of curiousity, what interest does a religious organization have in quarrying operations. I'm not being a smartass, I just don't get it. Thanks.

Peace.
Colby.

Duh...the rocks are to fill in the empty space in the mormon cranium. Pirate kidding


grayhghost


Dec 12, 2006, 3:54 PM
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Re: [price1869] (mor)Man made climbing [In reply to]
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"Nearly all the boulders in LCC came from the Mormons at one point or another."

Not true.


marc801


Dec 12, 2006, 3:57 PM
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chalker7 wrote:
Just out of curiousity, what interest does a religious organization have in quarrying operations.
It's not an on-going quarrying operation. The LSD built a new building several years ago and used stone from LCC for the facade to match that of existing, older buildings that also used LCC granite. Quarrying stopped when they finished their conference center. However, now that they're rebuilding a chunk of downtown SLC.....


chalker7


Dec 12, 2006, 4:00 PM
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Hmmm, something tells me kman isn't Mormon. lol.

Marc801, thats interesting, thanks. I figured they we using it for construction purposes. I just didn't realize they would go so far as quarry their own material rather than purchase from existing operations. I guess if the projects are large enough, and occur frequently enough, then it could be economically feasible to invest in such a large operation.


(This post was edited by chalker7 on Dec 12, 2006, 4:05 PM)


anythingxtreme


Dec 12, 2006, 4:47 PM
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Re: [devils_advocate] Man made climbing [In reply to]
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[quote Well that's because you're an ass. I would let everyone come play. Everyone except the Mormons that is.
Who is the ass? Why all the anti-mormon sentiment around here. I've met several such threads on this site.
Maybe this was meant as a sarcastic remark, and I'm sorry if I misunderstood, I just don't understand why all the hate? There are many good LDS members on this site.


devils_advocate


Dec 12, 2006, 5:18 PM
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anythingxtreme wrote:
Maybe this was meant as a sarcastic remark, and I'm sorry if I misunderstood,

Exactly. And normally I would never clarify when someone misinterprets one of my posts - part of the fun for me. But I don’t feel like coming off as prejudiced... well, not today anyway.

I have no idea what the OP is babbling about, where all these people are that supposedly “won’t let it go” (besides the OP), and what the hell Mormons have to do with any of this. So Tongue


flamer


Dec 13, 2006, 7:59 AM
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anythingxtreme wrote:
There are many good LDS members on this site.

BS there is no such thing as a good LDS member.

The church as a whole has a somewhat hidden agenda(i say somewhat because they've had leaks). They are seriously trying to take over the world and thus far are succeeding. The Book itself preach's plenty of hate.

Anyone who thinks otherwise should do some reading.

josh


carabiner96


Dec 13, 2006, 8:11 AM
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flamer wrote:
anythingxtreme wrote:
There are many good LDS members on this site.

BS there is no such thing as a good LDS member.

The church as a whole has a somewhat hidden agenda(i say somewhat because they've had leaks). They are seriously trying to take over the world and thus far are succeeding. The Book itself preach's plenty of hate.

Anyone who thinks otherwise should do some reading.

josh

Sounds like someone believes EVERYTHING he reads on the internet.



p.s. faeries are real.


devils_advocate


Dec 13, 2006, 8:53 AM
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carabiner96 wrote:
Sounds like someone believes EVERYTHING he reads on the internet.



p.s. faeries are real.

No crap they're real. Obviously someone never has been to San Francisco Laugh


flamer


Dec 13, 2006, 9:02 AM
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carabiner96 wrote:
flamer wrote:
anythingxtreme wrote:
There are many good LDS members on this site.

BS there is no such thing as a good LDS member.

The church as a whole has a somewhat hidden agenda(i say somewhat because they've had leaks). They are seriously trying to take over the world and thus far are succeeding. The Book itself preach's plenty of hate.

Anyone who thinks otherwise should do some reading.

josh

Sounds like someone believes EVERYTHING he reads on the internet.



p.s. faeries are real.

Not from the internet...read the book itself. Or any number of other books out there.

Did you know that the book of mormon says African people are the result of the devil having sex with a goat?

I'm sure you'd love to hear what they think about women...

You should educate yourself before taking pot shots.

josh


(This post was edited by flamer on Dec 13, 2006, 9:23 AM)


devils_advocate


Dec 13, 2006, 9:09 AM
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flamer wrote:
Did you know that the book of mormon says Africa people are the result of the devil having sex with a goat?

You should educate yourself before taking pot shots.

Africa people?


buckleki


Dec 13, 2006, 9:14 AM
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im looking at moving from pittsburgh, pa to SLC. are the mormans going to ruin my life? they're the only thing stopping me. ive never heard anything positive about those crazies and i hate religious f**ks who push their beliefs on you. is it worth the hastle putting up with these people for all the good rock. i believe in separation of church and state and my constitutional rights. or should i move somewhere else with good rock where i am allowed to dance after 1 am?


Partner dominic7


Dec 13, 2006, 9:19 AM
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devils_advocate wrote:
flamer wrote:
Did you know that the book of mormon says Africa people are the result of the devil having sex with a goat?

You should educate yourself before taking pot shots.

Africa people?

Yeah, that's what Utah people call them.


flamer


Dec 13, 2006, 9:25 AM
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devils_advocate wrote:
flamer wrote:
Did you know that the book of mormon says Africa people are the result of the devil having sex with a goat?

You should educate yourself before taking pot shots.

Africa people?

I'm a horrible typist and speller....my grammar and sentence structure suck as well.......

thanks for being a good editor...my error has been corrected.

josh


br


Dec 13, 2006, 9:55 AM
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hey people let's lay off the morons. all religions are valid including the morons. the moron church has the right to do whatever they want on their land. lets face it if you don't like the morons don't go/move to the state of Utah


jcasper


Dec 13, 2006, 10:06 AM
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flamer wrote:
Not from the internet...read the book itself. Or any number of other books out there.

Did you know that the book of mormon says African people are the result of the devil having sex with a goat?

I'm sure you'd love to hear what they think about women...

You should educate yourself before taking pot shots.

Okay. So I initially dismissed this as a really bad troll, and it still reeks of troll, but I can't not set the record straight here. It is blatantly obvious that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Please take your own advise and "educate yourself before taking pot shots," or maybe even "read the book yourself" if you are going to profess knowledge about it.

On a side note, are you honestly ignorant enough to think that millions of people in the world, including hundreds of thousands of Africans, believe that Africans are the result of the devil having sex with a goat??? Seriously??? I think thats worse than the people who think that Mormons have horns.

I apologize for contributing to the thread hijack.

(This post was edited by jcasper on Dec 13, 2006, 10:09 AM)


carabiner96


Dec 13, 2006, 10:25 AM
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flamer wrote:
carabiner96 wrote:
flamer wrote:
anythingxtreme wrote:
There are many good LDS members on this site.

BS there is no such thing as a good LDS member.

The church as a whole has a somewhat hidden agenda(i say somewhat because they've had leaks). They are seriously trying to take over the world and thus far are succeeding. The Book itself preach's plenty of hate.

Anyone who thinks otherwise should do some reading.

josh

Sounds like someone believes EVERYTHING he reads on the internet.



p.s. faeries are real.

Not from the internet...read the book itself. Or any number of other books out there.

Did you know that the book of mormon says African people are the result of the devil having sex with a goat?

I'm sure you'd love to hear what they think about women...

You should educate yourself before taking pot shots.

josh

Try reading a "normal" bible...there's plenty of fucked up shit in there that you wouldn't believe...did YOU know that our ancestors were a bunch of incestuous prigs??? Or that a silly apple doomed humanity all because women are weak?


Mods, move to soap box please, STAT.


fluxus


Dec 13, 2006, 11:41 AM
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crotch


Dec 13, 2006, 12:27 PM
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jcasper wrote:
I think thats worse than the people who think that Mormons have horns.

I thought it was the jews that have horns.


grayhghost


Dec 13, 2006, 12:35 PM
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Fluxus,
Are women allowed to hold the priest(ess)hood?


wilcox510


Dec 13, 2006, 1:02 PM
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flamer wrote:
BS there is no such thing as a good LDS member.

That is absoultely ridiculous. How many Mormons do you actually know and interact with on a regular basis? Let's see some quotes supporting the goat/devil thing.

buckleki - I've been in SLC for two years and the only negative impact Mormon culture has had on me is that I've had a hard time finding restaurants that are open on Sunday night.


fluxus


Dec 13, 2006, 1:14 PM
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jcasper


Dec 13, 2006, 1:47 PM
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fluxus wrote:
But I regret to say no, at this point the Mormon Church doesn't. But the discourse around women and the preisthood is in transitiion. I don't think women will get the priesthood any time soon but even some very conservative Mormons I know wonder why they don't have it.

This thread really belongs in The Soap Box.

The priesthood in the LDS church is not like "the priesthood" in other churches, synonymous with the leadership in the church. At both the church wide and local levels, women lead and serve in the church. They teach, pray, give sermons, etc. just as often as men in the church do. The church has what is called the Relief Society which is similar in many ways to the priesthood. There is a church wide Relief Society President, Bonnie D. Parkin, who is seen a a leader, both spiritual and organizational, throughout the world. Women are partners and equals to men in the church. As a member, I have known, as friends, hundreds of members of the church, having lived in many different areas in the country and been involved with congregations worldwide, and it is extremely seldom that I have come across a woman who is unhappy with women's role in the church.

So yes, women are not ordained to the priesthood in the church. Men and women are different, as God made them, and thus God has different roles for them in His church. Different roles does not mean inferior roles. Men don't have the capacity (and burden) of bearing children. Does that make men or women less valuable in society? Nope, just different. Women don't have the priesthood in the church, it doesn't mean they are less valuable. Just as there would be no children without both men and women, there would be no church without men and women. (Not suggesting that leading church is anything like making a baby :)


grayhghost


Dec 13, 2006, 1:56 PM
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"Comunity(sic) of Christ"

I briefly checked out their website. Is this the organization you belong to?
I had no idea the Mormon experience has splintered in such a way but I guess any popular idea has many sub-sets.


grayhghost


Dec 13, 2006, 1:59 PM
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"it is extremely seldom that I have come across a woman who is unhappy with women's role in the church."

This is by far the most popular reason the women I have known have left the church.

. . . but the most dangerous misconception in this thread is the idea that the church created the great bouldering in LCC.


fluxus


Dec 13, 2006, 2:30 PM
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flamer


Dec 13, 2006, 3:10 PM
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jcasper wrote:
On a side note, are you honestly ignorant enough to think that millions of people in the world, including hundreds of thousands of Africans, believe that Africans are the result of the devil having sex with a goat???

To be clear....i absolutely DO NOT think that The devil/ goat thing is real.....whether other people believe it who knows....but it's written in mormon passage's.
I'll get quotes as soon as I can get to my books.

The Mormon church is the fastest growing religion in the world. And they are full of hypocrisy and lies.
They twist the truth to whatever way fits them, and will allow them more members and money.
Woman and minorities have long been thought of as lesser being's than white men.
Those stance's changed when they were no longer popular with society as a whole.

There are hundreds of splintered off mormon church's....LDS being the recongnised mormon church.
The fundamentalist's(of which there are numerous splinter's as well) are the one's that attract the most attention. This primarily being due to the fact that they still live the "principal" that being plural marriage. The most notable being the FLDS who have been in the news the last few years concerning their current "one mighty and strong" leader(Warren Jeffs) being in hiding and finally caught by law enforcement. This was concerning child rape charge's and also being a polygamist or "Cohab" as it were.

Numerous historical books exsist concerning the broad spectrum of the LDS church and it's branch's. Some are flattering (most of these published with LDS funds...go figure!) some not.
A fairly common theme is that they will continue to change to benefit the church in the public eye, but once they've amassed a certain control over society....they will most liklely bring back less popular ideal's.

I've dealt with numerous mormons over the years. In fact I grew up playing with my mormon neighbor kids. My personal opinion of your joe blow mormon is that they are tremendously nice people. The kind you want as a neighbor. However they are completely brain washed by the church.
Attack me all you want. Loved the comment about lot's of Mo's climbing better than me.....it's true! of course I climb better than lot's of Mo's...depends how you look at it....oh and I'd have to care whether anyone climbs harder than me!

I know there are plenty of nasty things in the King James and everyother peice of scriptor out there! But you have to see the way certain groups manipulate their follower's.

Seriously if you are blindly defending them look into the numerous books that are out there.....

If you are a Mo defending your cult...well I expect that. In fact I respect that as well...gotta defend who you are even if it's crazy.

Carry on.....and I'll have some quotes for you eventually.

josh


flamer


Dec 13, 2006, 3:14 PM
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fluxus wrote:
I can't comment to the degree of satisfaction of any group within the church but certainly open expressions of dissatisfaction are rare, if for no other reason than they are strongly discouraged, on any level.

And there in lies the reason behind alot of the splinterd off 'churchs'.....

josh


fluxus


Dec 13, 2006, 3:41 PM
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flamer


Dec 13, 2006, 4:04 PM
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"fluxus[quote wrote:
And they are full of hypocrisy and lies.
They twist the truth to whatever way fits them, and will allow them more members and money.

someone has a REALLY big chip on their shoulder, examples please!
As I don't have time at this moment to get into all of your statements....I'll just look at this one.

How about the doctrine against "strong drink"...wasn't caffine considered "strong drink" for a very long time????

And tell me when was it that your "one mighty and strong" decreed that caffine was no longer considered "strong drink"??? Wasn't after the LDS trust purchased major interest in Pepsi co was it?

josh


anythingxtreme


Dec 13, 2006, 5:00 PM
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flamer wrote:
As I don't have time at this moment to get into all of your statements....I'll just look at this one.

How about the doctrine against "strong drink"...wasn't caffine considered "strong drink" for a very long time????

And tell me when was it that your "one mighty and strong" decreed that caffine was no longer considered "strong drink"??? Wasn't after the LDS trust purchased major interest in Pepsi co was it?

Sorry buddy. Caffine was never on that list. Is that really the best you can come up with?
We have yet to see one bit of evidence for any of your ludicrous claims.
Oh, and a little hint. You might want to try finding a different source for your information, you've really been misled, that or you only want to mislead others assuming none or few will actually check your references and unfounded claims, rather take your word for it.
A few suggestions:
http://www.mormon.org
http://www.lds.org
These are the official teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, if it is contrary to what is said here, it is not LDS doctrine. It's that simple.


fluxus


Dec 13, 2006, 5:30 PM
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wilcox510


Dec 13, 2006, 5:51 PM
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Flamer - I'm confused, which one is it? Are there no good Mormons, or do they make nice and friendly neighbors you can play with as a child? Blanket statements about there being no good Mormons simply make you look prejudiced, despite what quirks their religion may have.


sofakingcool


Dec 13, 2006, 5:54 PM
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Regarding the consumption of caffeine , I have two personal experiences I can site . First , my sister is married to a mormon , and he and his family will not drink caffeine under any circumstances . You say its a personal choice , and not doctrine , fine ... But years ago , I had a Mormon friend who was doing yard work on a home all day , and the people he was working for offered him a soda . They had nothing else , so he accepted . Some members of his church drove by and saw him drinking the soda , and he was heavily reprimanded by members of his church ... Doesn't seem like much of a personal decision , if you get in trouble for it .


carabiner96


Dec 13, 2006, 7:48 PM
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sofakingcool wrote:
Regarding the consumption of caffeine , I have two personal experiences I can site . First , my sister is married to a mormon , and he and his family will not drink caffeine under any circumstances . You say its a personal choice , and not doctrine , fine ... But years ago , I had a Mormon friend who was doing yard work on a home all day , and the people he was working for offered him a soda . They had nothing else , so he accepted . Some members of his church drove by and saw him drinking the soda , and he was heavily reprimanded by members of his church ... Doesn't seem like much of a personal decision , if you get in trouble for it .


Oh yes, sounds like then EVERY mormon will spank another if he sees someone else chugging a coke.

PUH-lease guys. Scrape the mold off of your brain and move out of your mommy's basement.


blondgecko
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Dec 13, 2006, 9:39 PM
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carabiner96 wrote:
flamer wrote:
carabiner96 wrote:
flamer wrote:
anythingxtreme wrote:
There are many good LDS members on this site.

BS there is no such thing as a good LDS member.

The church as a whole has a somewhat hidden agenda(i say somewhat because they've had leaks). They are seriously trying to take over the world and thus far are succeeding. The Book itself preach's plenty of hate.

Anyone who thinks otherwise should do some reading.

josh

Sounds like someone believes EVERYTHING he reads on the internet.



p.s. faeries are real.

Not from the internet...read the book itself. Or any number of other books out there.

Did you know that the book of mormon says African people are the result of the devil having sex with a goat?

I'm sure you'd love to hear what they think about women...

You should educate yourself before taking pot shots.

josh

Try reading a "normal" bible...there's plenty of fucked up shit in there that you wouldn't believe...did YOU know that our ancestors were a bunch of incestuous prigs??? Or that a silly apple doomed humanity all because women are weak?


Mods, move to soap box please, STAT.

Translation: My imaginary friend can kick your imaginary friend's ass! Mad


flamer


Dec 14, 2006, 9:14 AM
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fluxus wrote:
Let me help you, why not bring up the mountain meadows murders, or the white salamander paper?


Oh I was getting to that stuff.

I really wish i hadn't loaned out my books.

How about the gold tablets?
How many times did moroni "give" them to Joe Smith?
2 I believe it was....but wait the 2nd time he didn't have the "magic glasses" to interpret them. So he just recited them from memory....right.

Mormonism was founded by a complete wack job, who was run out of more than one town for being a con artist.

josh


madriver


Dec 14, 2006, 9:30 AM
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flamer wrote:
fluxus wrote:
Mormonism was founded by a complete wack job, who was run out of more than one town for being a con artist.

josh

...uhh Vermont actually...hell we're the most liberal state EVER!!!!!!!!!!


fluxus


Dec 14, 2006, 9:57 AM
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flamer wrote:
there is no such thing as a good LDS member. . .They are seriously trying to take over the world and thus far are succeeding. The Book itself preach's plenty of hate. . .Did you know that the book of mormon says Africa people are the result of the devil having sex with a goat? . . .they are full of hypocrisy and lies. . . They twist the truth to whatever way fits them . . .Woman and minorities have long been thought of as lesser being's than white men. . . Mormonism was founded by a complete wack job, who was run out of more than one town for being a con artist.

You know Josh, I suspect that much of what you have posted in this thread is questionable in terms of the RC.com rules of conduct. For example ddt reminded folks in another thread that "posting inflammatory material specifically to provoke a negative response from someone" is not within the pale here.

I think its nearly a categorical good to question beliefs, and to express strongly held opinions but the assembled quotes are simply bigotry nothing more. Your posts are not about the church they are about your own paranoia and anger.

You have an ax to grind with Mormons, not sure why, but thats the way it is. In grinding your ax you have shown yourself to be inarticulate, poorly informed, a little scary, and straight out bigoted.

yea, you're that guy.

You want to question the church, go for it, but do it without the hate and do it without misrepresenting Mormon faith and history. What you are doing is creating your own straw man, naming it Mormon and knocking it down. Not much of an achievement.


flamer


Dec 14, 2006, 9:57 AM
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madriver wrote:
flamer wrote:
fluxus wrote:
Mormonism was founded by a complete wack job, who was run out of more than one town for being a con artist.

josh

...uhh Vermont actually...hell we're the most liberal state EVER!!!!!!!!!!

Classic!!
What they don't believe in "seer stones" in Vermont?

....Look into my hat and you will find a new religion....one that will allow you to sleep with young girls......

josh


madriver


Dec 14, 2006, 10:03 AM
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flamer wrote:
madriver wrote:
flamer wrote:
fluxus wrote:
Mormonism was founded by a complete wack job, who was run out of more than one town for being a con artist.

josh

...uhh Vermont actually...hell we're the most liberal state EVER!!!!!!!!!!

Classic!!
What they don't believe in "seer stones" in Vermont?

....Look into my hat and you will find a new religion....one that will allow you to sleep with young girls......

josh

...don't know about "seer stones"....however we do have a large influx of "stoners" and Trustifarians. We allow them do to do pretty much anything they want...with regards to "sleeping with young girls". We pretty much allow that to.....

Love and Peace
J. Cashman


(This post was edited by madriver on Dec 14, 2006, 10:04 AM)


flamer


Dec 14, 2006, 10:53 AM
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fluxus wrote:
flamer wrote:
there is no such thing as a good LDS member. . .They are seriously trying to take over the world and thus far are succeeding. The Book itself preach's plenty of hate. . .Did you know that the book of mormon says Africa people are the result of the devil having sex with a goat? . . .they are full of hypocrisy and lies. . . They twist the truth to whatever way fits them . . .Woman and minorities have long been thought of as lesser being's than white men. . . Mormonism was founded by a complete wack job, who was run out of more than one town for being a con artist.

You know Josh, I suspect that much of what you have posted in this thread is questionable in terms of the RC.com rules of conduct. For example ddt reminded folks in another thread that "posting inflammatory material specifically to provoke a negative response from someone" is not within the pale here.

I think its nearly a categorical good to question beliefs, and to express strongly held opinions but the assembled quotes are simply bigotry nothing more. Your posts are not about the church they are about your own paranoia and anger.

You have an ax to grind with Mormons, not sure why, but thats the way it is. In grinding your ax you have shown yourself to be inarticulate, poorly informed, a little scary, and straight out bigoted.

yea, you're that guy.

You want to question the church, go for it, but do it without the hate and do it without misrepresenting Mormon faith and history. What you are doing is creating your own straw man, naming it Mormon and knocking it down. Not much of an achievement.

Right.
Keep thinking that. I'd suspect that more than one person reading this thread has gone out and found the truth for themself.

Point finger's saying I violated the CofD (hey that's like the DandC!!)...I haven't and nobody cares.

Inarticulate, especially when typing!!, I am. Misinformed I am not. Keep throwing up your smoke screen...you're cult has been doing it for years.
Bigoted towards LDS....hmmmm. I might be. That sucks! I'd never strive to be a bigot. And truth be told, I'm not planning on chasing down the nearst mormon. Nor do I wish any harm on any of you. But as long as the LDS church actively pursue's the mission program they do. I will continue to speak as I have.
Hell I'll make you a deal!! Get the church to stop actively seeking converts, and I'll leave it alone. People want to come and find your brand of religion great!!

You are a very classic example of an LDS book beater. Smoke screen's and all. Of course I make it easy for you to play innocent as I made the first statements here. Thus allowing for you to play the victim...which is always the easy side of the line.
But hey! I don't really care...all I wanted was to get more people to look at the historical facts surrounding the LDS world. Not the BS stuff from the church.
How many of you know that the LDS church actively purchase's historical documents that prove the book of mormon to be a sham? Look it up....it's out there.
In fact this practice has actually created a unqiue scam....people have been know to falsify documents and then sell them to the church!! I'm certainly not condoning that pratice...but it's interesting..no?

You can think whatever you want to about me and my intentions. I think you are mostly just scared that people will find the truth.

josh


flamer


Dec 14, 2006, 10:58 AM
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madriver wrote:
...don't know about "seer stones"....however we do have a large influx of "stoners" and Trustifarians. We allow them do to do pretty much anything they want...with regards to "sleeping with young girls". We pretty much allow that to.....

Ah the "seer stone" John smith was a believer in these "magic rocks". Before he founded the LDS church he used these supposed magic rocks to foretell the future. This was an obvious sham and he was run out of more than one town because of it.

Trustafarian's!!! Now there's a religious group I'd join!!

josh


madriver


Dec 14, 2006, 11:02 AM
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flamer wrote:
fluxus wrote:
flamer wrote:
there is no such thing as a good LDS member. . .They are seriously trying to take over the world and thus far are succeeding. The Book itself preach's plenty of hate. . .Did you know that the book of mormon says Africa people are the result of the devil having sex with a goat? . . .they are full of hypocrisy and lies. . . They twist the truth to whatever way fits them . . .Woman and minorities have long been thought of as lesser being's than white men. . . Mormonism was founded by a complete wack job, who was run out of more than one town for being a con artist.

You know Josh, I suspect that much of what you have posted in this thread is questionable in terms of the RC.com rules of conduct. For example ddt reminded folks in another thread that "posting inflammatory material specifically to provoke a negative response from someone" is not within the pale here.

I think its nearly a categorical good to question beliefs, and to express strongly held opinions but the assembled quotes are simply bigotry nothing more. Your posts are not about the church they are about your own paranoia and anger.

You have an ax to grind with Mormons, not sure why, but thats the way it is. In grinding your ax you have shown yourself to be inarticulate, poorly informed, a little scary, and straight out bigoted.

yea, you're that guy.

You want to question the church, go for it, but do it without the hate and do it without misrepresenting Mormon faith and history. What you are doing is creating your own straw man, naming it Mormon and knocking it down. Not much of an achievement.

Right.
Keep thinking that. I'd suspect that more than one person reading this thread has gone out and found the truth for themself.

Point finger's saying I violated the CofD (hey that's like the DandC!!)...I haven't and nobody cares.

Inarticulate, especially when typing!!, I am. Misinformed I am not. Keep throwing up your smoke screen...you're cult has been doing it for years.
Bigoted towards LDS....hmmmm. I might be. That sucks! I'd never strive to be a bigot. And truth be told, I'm not planning on chasing down the nearst mormon. Nor do I wish any harm on any of you. But as long as the LDS church actively pursue's the mission program they do. I will continue to speak as I have.
Hell I'll make you a deal!! Get the church to stop actively seeking converts, and I'll leave it alone. People want to come and find your brand of religion great!!

You are a very classic example of an LDS book beater. Smoke screen's and all. Of course I make it easy for you to play innocent as I made the first statements here. Thus allowing for you to play the victim...which is always the easy side of the line.
But hey! I don't really care...all I wanted was to get more people to look at the historical facts surrounding the LDS world. Not the BS stuff from the church.
How many of you know that the LDS church actively purchase's historical documents that prove the book of mormon to be a sham? Look it up....it's out there.
In fact this practice has actually created a unqiue scam....people have been know to falsify documents and then sell them to the church!! I'm certainly not condoning that pratice...but it's interesting..no?

You can think whatever you want to about me and my intentions. I think you are mostly just scared that people will find the truth.

josh

...wait ...you mean the Church of LDS had a "DaVinchi Code" thing? I bet somebody got blown up in a car or some shit like that....BTW....us Catholics have it all over the Mormons with wierd rituals and bizzare stories about how we came to beleive in God.....really...look it up....it's in the Bible.


Love

Pope on a Rope


(This post was edited by madriver on Dec 14, 2006, 11:04 AM)


flamer


Dec 14, 2006, 11:36 AM
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madriver wrote:
...wait ...you mean the Church of LDS had a "DaVinchi Code" thing? I bet somebody got blown up in a car or some shit like that....BTW....us Catholics have it all over the Mormons with wierd rituals and bizzare stories about how we came to beleive in God.....really...look it up....it's in the Bible.

I'm not a believer in any organised religion. I do not support any of them. I know that there are weird facets to most religion's.
I'm not going to compare any of them.
But I will tell you that if you are a supporter of
christian religions you should look into what the mormons think of you and your beliefs....It's interesting. Now i'm sure I'll get shit for pointing this stuff out, they'll Probably accuse me of supporting other religion's. I do not.

Tell you what just google "mormon truth" and see what comes up.
Some of the stuff is christian supported fluff that does have some facts, but also seek's to prove them based on their own believe's..of which some are qeustionable.
Some of the things you will find are historical facts....look into what occurred in Nauvoo.
Plenty of hypocrisy exposed, plenty of lies.

I'd encourage folks to read through some of it and pay close attention to fact's. Then form your own opinion. Hell read through the LDS links provided earlier in this thread. Compare what the church says with other info. Then form your opinion.

Oh and if you want some really juicy stuff google the afforementioned "mountain meadow massacre". That's a hell of a story. Not that other places/groups didn't have their version of the MMM, but it's still interesting.

josh


fluxus


Dec 14, 2006, 11:40 AM
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flamer


Dec 14, 2006, 11:45 AM
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wilcox510 wrote:
flamer wrote:
BS there is no such thing as a good LDS member.

That is absoultely ridiculous.

You know as I go back and read this I'd have to say that it was a harsh and "knee jerk" statement.

There are plenty of good people who are members of the LDS church. I was wrong to say that there are not.
.....I should have more clearly stated that the church itself is no good.

Please feel free to twist this statement as you will.
I just wanted to go back and point out my error.

josh


flamer


Dec 14, 2006, 11:50 AM
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fluxus wrote:
Wow! have you been reading my posts at all?

Again, its not really about the Mormons, its about Josh's ax.

Yup. It's all classic smoke screen. Twist things around so they look better than they are.
Deny and make counteraccusation's....

The best part is....you calling me ignorant!! And inarticulate!! Truth be told...I can't spell, so I sometimes change my statements to use the words I know how to spell.

The wool is securely pulled over thine eyes.....my silly friend!

josh


(This post was edited by flamer on Dec 14, 2006, 11:51 AM)


fluxus


Dec 14, 2006, 12:22 PM
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flamer wrote:
Yup. It's all classic smoke screen.

I should really just stop but this is too funny, what about what I have written is smoke screen? My discussion of patrichary in the church?What I posted regarding the word of wisdom?

In reply to:
The best part is....you calling me ignorant!! And inarticulate!!

You'll have to forgive me, I have something of an academic background, so when people make truth claims about something I expect such claims to take a certain form, to reveal a certain level of familarity with the subject matter, to be made with an awareness of context, to be critically engaged, and verafiable on some level.

Lacking any of the above characteristics your posts do strike me as ignorant. For example, you were critical of the word of wisdom yet didn't seem to know the text itself or how Mormons typiicaly interpert it, or what exactly the doctrinal statements concerning it are. Knowledge that is essential if one is going to be critical of the passage and its doctrine. You made a specific claim about a change in doctrine around the time of a specific business transaction. Well, that sort of thing should be very easy to quantify if the claim is correct but you just threw it out there as an attack. So your claim making is not done well and your claims take the form of attacks. calling you ignorant and inarticulate strikes me as reasonable considering both the style and content of your posts.


jcasper


Dec 14, 2006, 12:37 PM
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A couple of things Josh, just because I'm bored:

1) What exactly do you think the big conspiracy is all about? Who is gaining what by pulling the "wool over our eyes"? Maybe it was just all started as a big scam by the Jospeh Smith. Well, he lived his short life in constant physical persecution by bigots like you, suffering inhuman torture until his eventual murder? Doesn't sound like it was worth it for him. Maybe the local leaders? hrmmm... Pretty much all of them have full time jobs apart from the service in the church, and many put in 40+ hours a week of UNPAID service in the church. I guess it's not worth it for them either. Maybe the regional leaders who leave their family, life, and career behind to live wherever they are needed for some 10 - 15 years, also without pay? Or are you talking about the global leaders who devote their life, living off of their own retirement, to a rigorous schedule of helping people, most definitely not a life of luxury and relaxation? So again, exactly who is gaining what? (Note that I'm not saying any of these points prove the points you have made are wrong, I realize that logically they don't prove a thing, but I do feel they put a bit more of the burden of proof on you, as the people who are supposedly involved in this great conspiracy, a crime against society, have absolutely no motive to do so)

2) You realize, of course, that you have read a book or two, written by people with a chip on their shoulder, about the church and profess all knowledge about the church. And then call people who have either spent their entire lives learning about the church (myself) or who have obviously put in a good amount of thoughtful research and learning into the church (fluxus and others), ignorant? I have read many of the books you talk about, probably more than you, with "facts" about the history of the church and the history of Joseph Smith and the "doctrines" supposedly taught in the church. Guess what, they are all BLATANTLY WRONG. All of them are academic trash, citing each other as references and all based in random speculation at best, and usually flat out lies.

Speaking as someone who has spent tens of thousands of hours studying ever bit of information I can get my hands on, both for and against the church, reading literally bookshelves full of books, and who has at times seriously questioned its doctrine and history, I can tell you in no uncertain terms that every single accusation you have made in this thread is completely and utterly false.

3) A few of your posts seem to be trying to directly refute what members of the church say they believe. So you seem to be trying to convince me that I believe something, when I have stated myself that I don't believe it?? I therefore state as an undisputed fact that you believe that a pink and purple dotted flying tortoise created the earth and runs everything on it. Pretty ridiculous? Yup.

Anyway, I need to get back to work.


(This post was edited by jcasper on Dec 14, 2006, 12:42 PM)


madriver


Dec 14, 2006, 12:38 PM
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fluxus wrote:
flamer wrote:
Yup. It's all classic smoke screen.

You'll have to forgive me, I have something of an academic background, so when people make truth claims about something I expect such claims to take a certain form, to reveal a certain level of familarity with the subject matter, to be made with an awareness of context, to be critically engaged, and verafiable on some level.

Lacking any of the above characteristics your posts do strike me as ignorant. For example, you were critical of the word of wisdom yet didn't seem to know the text itself or how Mormons typiicaly interpert it, or what exactly the doctrinal statements concerning it are. Knowledge that is essential if one is going to be critical of the passage and its doctrine. You made a specific claim about a change in doctrine around the time of a specific business transaction. Well, that sort of thing should be very easy to quantify if the claim is correct but you just threw it out there as an attack. So your claim making is not done well and your claims take the form of attacks. calling you ignorant and inarticulate strikes me as reasonable considering both the style and content of your posts.


....dude...here is the real culprit...if you want to blast away at a paticular religion or group....blow up the Academics!! Thats a bunch we can all sink our teeth into!!!!!!!!!! Damn Grad students and Tenured Profs....the WHOLE lot of em....bunch of fanatical liberal lunies if you ask me...or any other idiot for that matter...wait.....crap....nevermind....stick with the Mormons.....


love

M. Hoffman


ddt


Dec 14, 2006, 12:43 PM
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Some good discussion and debate going on here folks... just what the soap box is for Smile

I'll admit that earlier I was worried that we're starting to flame each other instead of going after the issues (without reference to any specific post), but I think we're on track again. Let's keep it that way.

Cheers,
DDT


jcasper


Dec 14, 2006, 12:47 PM
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madriver wrote:
....dude...here is the real culprit...if you want to blast away at a paticular religion or group....blow up the Academics!! Thats a bunch we can all sink our teeth into!!!!!!!!!! Damn Grad students and Tenured Profs....the WHOLE lot of em....bunch of fanatical liberal lunies if you ask me...or any other idiot for that matter...wait.....crap....nevermind....stick with the Mormons.....

Crap, I'm an academic and a mormon! Where does that put me?! :)


madriver


Dec 14, 2006, 12:49 PM
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jcasper wrote:
madriver wrote:
....dude...here is the real culprit...if you want to blast away at a paticular religion or group....blow up the Academics!! Thats a bunch we can all sink our teeth into!!!!!!!!!! Damn Grad students and Tenured Profs....the WHOLE lot of em....bunch of fanatical liberal lunies if you ask me...or any other idiot for that matter...wait.....crap....nevermind....stick with the Mormons.....

Crap, I'm an academic and a mormon! Where does that put me?! :)


...it a world of trouble my friend....
love
T. Kazcynski


ddt


Dec 14, 2006, 12:50 PM
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jcasper wrote:
Crap, I'm an academic and a mormon! Where does that put me?! :)

I'd say about as big a target as say, and owner of RC.com WinkLaugh

DDT


petsfed


Dec 14, 2006, 1:33 PM
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Some observations:

Mainstream LDS is, by comparison to its splinter groups, pretty normal. However, the LDS church was brought into the 20th century by some world class bastards, and that stigma has stayed with it. For instance, one of the first group of elders included a freed slave. Then Brigham Young came to power, and that ended. St. George was founded with the intention of creating a slave supported cotton empire. Brigham Young also at least played interference for the Mountain Meadows Massacre. In fact, if you really want to focus on why the LDS movement gets such a bad rap, you can probably place it firmly on Young. It is in his steps that virtually all subsequent fundamentalist LDS sects, of which there are many, have followed. It wasn't until the practice of spiritual wifery was abollished that you really saw the "crazy" splinter groups appear, and that same abolition was meant to ease Mormonism's passage into modern society.

Also, the RLDS, the first real splinter group from mainstream LDS, broke off shortly after Joseph Smith's death, led by his first wife and his son, who did not support or condone polygamy.

Third, as a young child, I lived (briefly) in Mesa, AZ. The Mormon community was both large and strong there, and we estimated that in our subdivision of approximately 3000 people, around 12 of them were not LDS. My family, and another. The only kids whose parents allowed them to play with myself and my siblings were that other "heathen" family. My mother was unceremoniously kicked out of the local Avon club. I suppose it didn't help that my parents led an effort to get the seminary classes moved off campus at the local high school. This was a perfect case of the tyranny of the majority. To this day I don't trust Mormons for that. For all of their brotherly love, they can still be exclusionary pricks. I've had a lot of LDS friends, but I've never been that close to them, because under that shiny exterior, I felt that their faith could still drive them to be terrible people. That particular experience is probably why I will never claim allegiance to any particular belief structure.

Finally, I would suggest that everyone read Under the Banner of Heaven, by Jon Krakauer, then investigate every single claim he makes that might be upsetting to the church leaders. Its by no means a fair and balanced book, but it helps to colorize the modern church in a much more forgiving light. I think the criticisms that the LDS leaders lumped on the book (mentioned in detail in the afterward) seem almost to suggest that their church is infallible, and they do their believers a disservice by glossing over (indeed, outright discouraging investigations, if some of my Mormon coworkers can be believed) the skeletons in their closet. Moreover, by reading this book it became readily apparent that the LDS church is trying, just like the Catholic church, to modernize without alienating their more conservative followers.


jcasper


Dec 14, 2006, 1:34 PM
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ddt wrote:
I'd say about as big a target as say, and owner of RC.com WinkLaugh

[heavy sarcasm tone]
Maybe, but we don't deserve it. :)
[/heavy sarcasm tone]


thorne
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flamer wrote:
wilcox510 wrote:
flamer wrote:
BS there is no such thing as a good LDS member.
That is absoultely ridiculous.
You know as I go back and read this I'd have to say that it was a harsh and "knee jerk" statement.

From what I've read, it's pretty consistent with much of what you've been saying in this thread.

Perhaps you should go back and re-read your other posts.


jcasper


Dec 14, 2006, 2:17 PM
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petsfed wrote:
Third, as a young child, I lived (briefly) in Mesa, AZ. The Mormon community was both large and strong there, and we estimated that in our subdivision of approximately 3000 people, around 12 of them were not LDS. My family, and another. The only kids whose parents allowed them to play with myself and my siblings were that other "heathen" family. My mother was unceremoniously kicked out of the local Avon club. I suppose it didn't help that my parents led an effort to get the seminary classes moved off campus at the local high school. This was a perfect case of the tyranny of the majority. To this day I don't trust Mormons for that. For all of their brotherly love, they can still be exclusionary pricks. I've had a lot of LDS friends, but I've never been that close to them, because under that shiny exterior, I felt that their faith could still drive them to be terrible people. That particular experience is probably why I will never claim allegiance to any particular belief structure.

This is definitely a problem with the culture in the church, specifically in Utah and parts of Idaho and Arizona where there are communities where church members make up the majority. When I tell members of the church outside of Utah that I grew up in Utah I often get: "oh, a 'Utah mormon,'" and I understand why. So yes, the culture in LDS communities can be pretty bad, but I feel (maybe hope?) that the majority of communities in those states aren't like this, and its just some bad apples. Many members of the church know and recognize this (my wife is even hesitant to raise our kids in Utah for fear they will grow up with that mentality.) Fortunately this has been talked about in recent general conferences of the church and the leaders of the church are constantly encouraging members to be less self righteous and more accepting of those outside of our faith. I personally find it ironic that our religion has such a history of persecution and now we see communities of members persecuting those that believe differently than us.

I strongly feel that this is a problem with the culture created by the members of the church, and not a problem with the doctrines of the church and the teaching of its leadership. Unfortunately a church is usually defined to be its membership, and I know of some members of the church, even leaders and "strong" members of the church, doing absolutely horrific things. I feel however, that a church should be judged by the doctrines it teaches, not by the actions of its members. After all, we determine our own happiness in this life and in the life to come, it is not based on the actions of others. (A doctrine that is taught by the church. :) Additionally, nobody, including the President of the church, whom we hold as a prophet of God like Moses or Isaiah, is perfect or infallible (save God Himself). So you've always got to take things that people do with a grain of salt and go easy on the judgment.


flamer


Dec 14, 2006, 3:35 PM
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thorne wrote:
flamer wrote:
wilcox510 wrote:
flamer wrote:
BS there is no such thing as a good LDS member.
That is absoultely ridiculous.
You know as I go back and read this I'd have to say that it was a harsh and "knee jerk" statement.

From what I've read, it's pretty consistent with much of what you've been saying in this thread.

Perhaps you should go back and re-read your other posts.

Ok #1 blow me.

#2 As I went back and tried to find the previous info concerning the LDS church and Pepsi co. I could not.
And in fact found 1 piece of information from a reliable and independent source that directly debunked this as an urban legend if you will.
So while I'd like to look at the other piece I could not find....I'll have to point out that there is now info pointing the other direction.

josh


flamer


Dec 14, 2006, 3:49 PM
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jcasper wrote:
1) What exactly do you think the big conspiracy is all about? Who is gaining what by pulling the "wool over our eyes"? Maybe it was just all started as a big scam by the Jospeh Smith. Well, he lived his short life in constant physical persecution by bigots like you, suffering inhuman torture until his eventual murder?

How about that it is all a big lie? Seems as if you know that when you talk about old joe....his scam and all. So how can you believe these lies when you know that's what it was? He was primaarily persecuted because he was a liar and a scam artist.
I will give you that once the mormon scam was out they were persecuted more as a whole. But the root is still in lies and con's.


You can't seriously have study as much as you say and still believe everything the church says!!
That would be just plain silly!! I think you've studied with the church's chip on your shoulder and never looked at anything seriously.

Who is to gain?? How about the church? Thats right folks...LDS is INC.!! How much do you tith? shall we talk about what the church doea with all that money?? Maybe would should delve into their investments?

I've not asked anyone to choose one side or another. I have my opinion's. And I encourage you folks to look at the info out there and develope your own.
I'm also not trying to change the minds of these die hard LDS followers....most of them are to far gone.

As far as RC.com goes....wow the new owner "looking in"....that's strange. I wonder who's senseabilities got in a bunch and pointed out this thread.....maybe it is time to leave for greener pasture's....with the other refugee's.

josh


blondgecko
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Dec 14, 2006, 4:00 PM
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I know the LDS church at Kangaroo Point in Brisbane is one of the more obscenely over-the-top buildings I've seen.


Partner angry


Dec 14, 2006, 4:01 PM
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madriver wrote:
...wait ...you mean the Church of LDS had a "DaVinchi Code" thing? I bet somebody got blown up in a car or some shit like that....BTW....us Catholics have it all over the Mormons with wierd rituals and bizzare stories about how we came to beleive in God.....really...look it up....it's in the Bible.


Love

Pope on a Rope

Nice one. If that was on accident, even nicer. WHITESALAMANDER4EVER


price1869


Dec 14, 2006, 4:02 PM
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Well,

I really was just refering to the fact that I hear a lot of people bitch about the Mormons taking away "their" bouldering area.

Granted, the mormons didn't make all of the boulders in LCC, but God did, and the mormons helped knock a lot of them down. :)

But along the lines of the current topic let's ask the opinions of:

Osama regarding the US
Judas regarding Christ
Israel regarding Iran
and of course Flamer regarding the Mormons.

Mormons don't kick people out of their communities because the people aren't mormon. The people leave because they feel uncomfortable. I dare say that many of you who are white would feel uncomfortable living in an all black community, no matter how nice the people. Just like Flamer feels uncomfortable in the presence of the educated. He'll eventually leave, or kick himself out with a big chip on his shoulder. He probably thinks that everyone is against him. ha ha.

And Mormons do have horns. What are you talking about, Jews?


fluxus


Dec 14, 2006, 4:26 PM
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price1869 wrote:
Well,

I really was just refering to the fact that I hear a lot of people bitch about the Mormons taking away "their" bouldering area.

Granted, the mormons didn't make all of the boulders in LCC, but God did, and the mormons helped knock a lot of them down. :)

Wait one second, you are way out of line mister! Imagine the Gaul of the OP trying to bring a thread back on topic! Of all the nerve! :-)

In reply to:
I know the LDS church at Kangaroo Point in Brisbane is one of the more obscenely over-the-top buildings I've seen.

I realize that Mormon church architecture tends to be pretty kitchy but Obscenely so?


(This post was edited by fluxus on Dec 14, 2006, 5:04 PM)


jcasper


Dec 14, 2006, 4:53 PM
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flamer wrote:
jcasper wrote:
1) What exactly do you think the big conspiracy is all about? Who is gaining what by pulling the "wool over our eyes"? Maybe it was just all started as a big scam by the Jospeh Smith. Well, he lived his short life in constant physical persecution by bigots like you, suffering inhuman torture until his eventual murder?

How about that it is all a big lie? Seems as if you know that when you talk about old joe....his scam and all. So how can you believe these lies when you know that's what it was? He was primaarily persecuted because he was a liar and a scam artist.
I will give you that once the mormon scam was out they were persecuted more as a whole. But the root is still in lies and con's.

ummm, no. Reread what I said (seems you've been told that a couple of times in this thread). I was saying that Joseph Smith was not a scam artist or a lier. The fact that he was persecuted his entire life until he was murdered puts the burden of proof further on your shoulders as it shows that he gained absolutely nothing from what he preached and lost everything, so he had plenty of motivation to NOT teach what he taught, and absolutely no motivation to lie or scam people. If somebody or some organization were to run a scam, you'd think they'd be getting something out of it, and Joseph Smith certainly received nothing (worldly) for what he did.

flamer wrote:
You can't seriously have study as much as you say and still believe everything the church says!!
That would be just plain silly!! I think you've studied with the church's chip on your shoulder and never looked at anything seriously.

Well, I guess its my word against your blind assumptions then.

flamer wrote:
Who is to gain?? How about the church? Thats right folks...LDS is INC.!! How much do you tith? shall we talk about what the church doea with all that money?? Maybe would should delve into their investments?

I never said the church, as an organization, didn't have a lot of money floating around; so yes, let us talk about what the church does with all that money. The church itself is a non-profit organization. The profit of any commercial interests of the church is either reinvested or put directly into the church itself (the non-profit). So what does the non-profit church do with all the money coming and going? Well, as a non-profit we know that it is not going into any personal pockets. It (among other things) has to build and maintain buildings (how this whole thread got started, quarrying LLC), it prints millions of books and pamphlets, that are given out freely, so people can be educated properly about the church, and provides a LOT of relief to people world wide. In fact, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is among the largest relief organizations in the world. That's right, a large portion of the money which you are so concerned about goes to help people of all faiths all over the world. The only actual people that get paid with that money are those that get paid to do their non-clergy jobs, like the construction and maintenance of buildings, or the accountants that make sure the money isn't being misused anywhere (in fact, I'm not even sure if they get paid or not). I have been in a situation where I spent a lot of the church's money (renting apartments for the missionaries and buying and maintaining cars for them to drive), and trust me, the church was watching extremely closely to ensure that it was used properly and not going directly into my, or anyone else's, pocket.

So I ask you again, what person is benefiting from your conspiracy? It is nonsensical to say that "the church" gains from your conspiracy. When one says a company gains from its doings, it means the owners of that company gains, but the church doesn't have any "owners" and nobody in the clergy of the church is paid for what they do.

flamer wrote:
I've not asked anyone to choose one side or another. I have my opinion's. And I encourage you folks to look at the info out there and develope your own.
I'm also not trying to change the minds of these die hard LDS followers....most of them are to far gone.

That's the only sensible thing you've said this whole time. Look at the info out there and develop your own opinion. Part of doing that is determining the legitimate and correct information to base your decisions on. My main goal in replying to you is to let you and those they may read this thread know that the particular information that you have received and relayed here is incorrect and should not be used to base any kind of opinion about the church on. If you were to look into what new climbing shoes to buy, are you only going to listen to they guy struggling up the 5.6 complaining about the shoes that are three sizes too big for him?

In reply to:
As far as RC.com goes....wow the new owner "looking in"....that's strange. I wonder who's senseabilities got in a bunch and pointed out this thread.....maybe it is time to leave for greener pasture's....with the other refugee's.

Or maybe he is just doing his job and paying attention to what is going on on his website? If a couple of supportive comments from the sites owner and a gentle reminder to keep it civil (with absolutely no moderation or anything of that sort mind you) is enough to make you leave this site, then maybe your "senseabilities got in a bunch [sic]."


chitlinsconcarne


Dec 14, 2006, 8:03 PM
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buckleki wrote:
im looking at moving from pittsburgh, pa to SLC. are the mormans going to ruin my life? they're the only thing stopping me. ive never heard anything positive about those crazies and i hate religious f**ks who push their beliefs on you. is it worth the hastle putting up with these people for all the good rock. i believe in separation of church and state and my constitutional rights. or should i move somewhere else with good rock where i am allowed to dance after 1 am?

Its entirely possible to live here in SLC and ignore the church completely. The majority of people here are not LDS, and if you center your time around sports like climbing, skiing,mt. biking, etc. you will find that LDS representation within those social enclaves is very thin.
They are certainly not any crazier than anybody else, and there are many positive aspects to the LDS faith. I usually find that the problems people have here are the same ones that they had before they got here.


price1869


Dec 14, 2006, 10:30 PM
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Yeah, that and they drill big holes in the boulders.


flamer


Dec 14, 2006, 11:31 PM
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Hey if mormons want to think I'm ignorant ..fine i think they are so turn about...fair play.

Truth is with this thread I've gotten nore people to look for the truth....


Funny thing about people...if fluxus and I were to climb together and leave this BS out of it we'd probably get some serious shit done. This world we live in is weird that way..no?

In the end(I'm done doing circle's with these silly Mo's) i encourage anyone reading this to research it all and form an opinion.

josh


Partner tradman


Dec 15, 2006, 7:14 AM
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In reply to:
Truth is with this thread I've gotten nore people to look for the truth....

You've done a lot more than that: you've helped us all to see that mormons, represented here by JCasper, are a lot more patient, forgiving and understand than we might previously have thought.

You've shown all of us that if mormons can patiently and articulately defend their beliefs against abusive, obnoxious dumbos like you, then their beliefs are leading them to peace and tolerance, and might well be worth talking about.

Well done, you've highlighted a whole bunch of good points about mormons and nothing but bad points about yourself.

You've helped me change my attitude towards mormons, you really have.


flamer


Dec 15, 2006, 8:19 AM
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tradman wrote:
In reply to:
Truth is with this thread I've gotten nore people to look for the truth....

You've done a lot more than that: you've helped us all to see that mormons, represented here by JCasper, are a lot more patient, forgiving and understand than we might previously have thought.

You've shown all of us that if mormons can patiently and articulately defend their beliefs against abusive, obnoxious dumbos like you, then their beliefs are leading them to peace and tolerance, and might well be worth talking about.

Well done, you've highlighted a whole bunch of good points about mormons and nothing but bad points about yourself.

You've helped me change my attitude towards mormons, you really have.


Hey if you want to be another lamb go ahead.....seems to me that you are clearly not smart enough to avoid the ultra nice approach. There is a belly to the beast and it's not good.

josh


price1869


Dec 15, 2006, 8:32 AM
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Flamer,

You can't stab someone and then expect to make friends by pulling out the knife. It doesn't work that way. I encourage you to also seek truth. Good luck.


Partner tradman


Dec 15, 2006, 8:42 AM
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In reply to:
Hey if you want to be another lamb go ahead.....seems to me that you are clearly not smart enough to avoid the ultra nice approach. There is a belly to the beast and it's not good.

Perhaps there is a bad side to mormonism. I don't know.

But if I attack and hate mormons because of it as you do - well then all I'll have done is ruin my own happiness and peace. And that would just make the situation worse than before.

Two wrongs don't make a right.


fluxus


Dec 15, 2006, 9:12 AM
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tradman wrote:

Perhaps there is a bad side to mormonism. I don't know.

As was mentioned earlier jcasper showed himself to be very patient, so if jcasper is the good side, then I (not as patient, more in you face with flamer, less willing to suffer a fool.) must be the bad side! hey, What are these two lumps starting to grow on my head?


Partner tradman


Dec 15, 2006, 9:41 AM
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In reply to:
As was mentioned earlier jcasper showed himself to be very patient, so if jcasper is the good side, then I (not as patient, more in you face with flamer, less willing to suffer a fool.) must be the bad side! hey, What are these two lumps starting to grow on my head?

Smile

Heh.

If we care about people, we try to set them straight when they make mistakes, right?

But there's a big difference between patiently if firmly trying to correct them and just abusing and badmouthing them with no intent other than to hurt them and make others think badly of them.

You're on one side of that equation, flamer's on the other. Perhaps the lumps on your head are the beginnings of a halo...

Wink


wilcox510


Dec 15, 2006, 9:52 AM
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Flamer - I am not Mormon and am not pro or anti Mormon. I'm not really a believer in any organized religion and I agree that many things about the LDS church seem quite odd to me, but your tone throughout this whole thing only makes you (and therefore other anti-Mormon people) seem bitter and ignorant. You mentioned something earlier about you being attacked, if you read back through every post here you'll notice that pretty much every attacking statement here was made by you. Responses like "blow me" and "I'm done doing circle's with these silly Mo's" don't exactly help further your cause

And what does "Hey if you want to be another lamb go ahead.....seems to me that you are clearly not smart enough to avoid the ultra nice approach" mean? It seems you believe that it is impossible to be nice and make an intelligent point? Well, you havent managed to be rude and make an intelligent point either, just the first.


fluxus


Dec 15, 2006, 10:05 AM
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Tradman, you are far more kind than I deserve, but thanks!


jcasper


Dec 15, 2006, 10:45 AM
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tradman wrote:
represented here by JCasper, are a lot more patient...
fluxus wrote:
As was mentioned earlier jcasper showed himself to be very patient, so if jcasper is the good side

I appreciate the compliments. I spent two years as a missionary talking to people like flamer and got pretty used to it. It gets a lot more interesting when people are as belligerent as flamar was, but educated with more fodder, especially concerning doctrine. It was always fun to see a preacher come to answer the door, bible in hand. :)

tradman wrote:
and might well be worth talking about.
fluxus wrote:
hey, What are these two lumps starting to grow on my head?

I'd happily answer any questions you may have. Wink


madriver


Dec 15, 2006, 11:00 AM
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jcasper wrote:
tradman wrote:
represented here by JCasper, are a lot more patient...
fluxus wrote:
As was mentioned earlier jcasper showed himself to be very patient, so if jcasper is the good side

I appreciate the compliments. I spent two years as a missionary talking to people like flamer and got pretty used to it. It gets a lot more interesting when people are as belligerent as flamar was, but educated with more fodder, especially concerning doctrine. It was always fun to see a preacher come to answer the door, bible in hand. :)

tradman wrote:
and might well be worth talking about.
fluxus wrote:
hey, What are these two lumps starting to grow on my head?

I'd happily answer any questions you may have. Wink


hey Jcasper...did you have to do the door to door preaching thing? I'm totally ignorant when it comes to religion, but I have always felt sorry for the LDS guys that have to canvas a neighborhood in hopes of hitting a lost soul.

Bob


BTW


if I sign my name I'm fairly serious and not my usual cynical troll


fluxus


Dec 15, 2006, 11:10 AM
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flamer wrote:
Funny thing about people...if fluxus and I were to climb together and leave this BS out of it we'd probably get some serious shit done. This world we live in is weird that way..no?

Judging from your climbing log you couldn't keep up with me past the warm-up. :-)

but seriously, you posted insulting, hostile, and bigoted things about me and my religion and then post something like this? There is nothing weird about a world in which people are put off by written comunications such as yours, and think of you as a sketchy dude as a result (and therefore would never consider you a viable climbing partner.)

If you want to be the guy that everyone would consider a potentially cool climbing parter, then how about a bit more civility in the public sphere?

Its Obvious to me that everything you had to say about the church could have been presented in a way that encouraged dialogue and a thoughtful examination of those topics you raised. Near the end you stated that you wanted people to learn and make their own decisions but in no way did your statements encourage efforts in that direction. You never cited or offered sources, you never really engaged practices or beliefs you just made a loose jumble of inflamatory claims. If you really want to educate and promote questioning, you have a lot to learn about how this is done.

anyway, party on, hope you get outside climbing this weekend.


fluxus


Dec 15, 2006, 11:21 AM
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petsfed wrote:
Also, the RLDS, the first real splinter group from mainstream LDS, broke off shortly after Joseph Smith's death, led by his first wife and his son, who did not support or condone polygamy.

This statement stuck out to me. I think it shows how the contemporary context informs our understanding of history.

I think calling the RLDS a "splinter" from the mainstream poses an interesting question. How did the people involved in the church at the time understand and process what happened to the church as the violent death of JS? At the time there were several groups claiming that they were the rightful leaders of the church I imagine that Emma Smith, her son and others breaking from Brigham Young was a HUGE deal, that cast doubt on Young's authority to lead the church. I suspect that it was far less clear at the time that one was the "mainstream" and one was a "faction" since as you mentioned Emma's group held views that were more in line with social norms of the day (and today as well!). I don't know the answer but I find it interesting to consider.


jcasper


Dec 15, 2006, 11:33 AM
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madriver wrote:
hey Jcasper...did you have to do the door to door preaching thing? I'm totally ignorant when it comes to religion, but I have always felt sorry for the LDS guys that have to canvas a neighborhood in hopes of hitting a lost soul.

Yup, sure did (well, more accurately, I chose to, I didn't "have to"). The neighborhood canvassing was more just boring than difficult. On average, I'd say about 498 out of every 500 people we talked to (which meant about 1500 doors knocked on), said "no thanks" and we moved on. One would want to argue with us, and one would actually be interested in listening. Then of those 1/500 that listened, maybe 1/20 or so were actually interested in really looking into the church. And I was in an area that had high numbers. :) I was in the St. Louis area and spent most of my time going through small towns in Southern Illinois, I can't imagine knocking through Italy or Japan or something.

To combat the monotony we would play games and have fun with it. Take turns coming up with random words that the other had to use in their "door approach." Ask if we could sing them a song if they didn't want to hear the message. Do stupid/silly door approaches ("If a book fell out of heaven and landed on your doorstep right now, would you read it?", "ummmm, sure", then have your companion toss the Book of Mormon from somewhere hidden to land on their doorstep; or introduce myself like James Bond ("Names Casper, Elder Casper."), etc.). Then there were the old ladies chasing us off with a broom or the rednecks answering the door with a shotgun pointed at us that kept things interesting as well. We had a good time. :)

Anyway, it was all well worth it for the few that answered their door and said "Actually, yes. We've been looking for a church to join." or the people who were reluctant to listen but eventually had their lives change for the better, even if they didn't end up joining the church. I was able to play a small part in helping dozens of people overcome substance abuse, depression, etc. just by being a friend to talk to or offering a message of hope. So overall I consider it probably the most meaningful, useful, and productive two years of my life.


madriver


Dec 15, 2006, 11:57 AM
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thanks...and all the best...I could not imagine ever having to go through that. Hang in there...the community is a rough place for anyone daring enough to espouse their religious beliefs. You seem like you've already been through worse though!!!


Bob


snoangel


Dec 15, 2006, 1:28 PM
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Ok, why has no one asked the one question that REALLY matters when it comes to Mormons???

What's the deal with the magic underwear?? Wink


jcasper


Dec 15, 2006, 2:11 PM
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snoangel wrote:
What's the deal with the magic underwear?? Wink

This is a little less superficial than what I've said before so I have to put in the disclaimer that this is my viewpoint and take on things and not necessarily the "official" way the church would describe it or any other member of the church for that matter. So please just take this as a general gist or main idea. Things are much more complicated and in depth than I could possible go in to here.

I also have to be bit careful as I don't want somebody who is writing a book like those flamer has mentioned to google this reply then take quotes out of context to further their invalid assumptions. I'm a little hesitant to answer publicly, as opposed to a PM, for that very reason, but I'll give it a go...

In temples, members of the church receive sacred ordinances. In mormonism, an ordinance is an act that usually involves making a covenant, or promise, with God. We promise to obey His commandments and He promises that we will be blessed as we obey. After we have made these convenants in the temple, we wear special garments under our clothes as a symbol and constant reminder of the convenants we have made. This is similar in nature to wearing a wedding ring, or a Jewish family putting a Mezuzah on their doorpost. The "magic" part comes from our belief that as we obey God's commandments, in this case wearing these garments, we will be blessed. It's as simple as that really.


(This post was edited by jcasper on Dec 15, 2006, 2:13 PM)


camhead


Dec 15, 2006, 2:13 PM
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Re: [snoangel] (mor)Man made climbing [In reply to]
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wow, I haven;t read this thread all the way yet. So far, what I've seen is that the non-mormons are regurgitating the same rumors and misinformation propogated by anti-mormon evangelical groups, who are AT LEAST as fucked up as the LDS church.

And on the other side, the Mormon apologist is regurgitating the same whitebread doctrine that the church is pushing nowdays "honest, this is what we've always believed! we're not THAT weird!"


BOTTOM LINE---
The mormon church is at its heart intolerant and disrespectful.

say what you want, but in 2 Nephi... there is a church of the lamb and a church of the devil. nothing more. Mormons believe that all religions that are not their own are of the devil. this is disrespectful at the least.

fine bitches.


(This post was edited by camhead on Dec 15, 2006, 2:17 PM)


madriver


Dec 15, 2006, 2:45 PM
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camhead wrote:
wow, I haven;t read this thread all the way yet. So far, what I've seen is that the non-mormons are regurgitating the same rumors and misinformation propogated by anti-mormon evangelical groups, who are AT LEAST as fucked up as the LDS church.

And on the other side, the Mormon apologist is regurgitating the same whitebread doctrine that the church is pushing nowdays "honest, this is what we've always believed! we're not THAT weird!"


BOTTOM LINE---
The mormon church is at its heart intolerant and disrespectful.

say what you want, but in 2 Nephi... there is a church of the lamb and a church of the devil. nothing more. Mormons believe that all religions that are not their own are of the devil. this is disrespectful at the least.

fine bitches.


...buzzkill....so can we go back to rippin on Academics?


(This post was edited by madriver on Dec 15, 2006, 3:12 PM)


fluxus


Dec 15, 2006, 2:57 PM
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Re: [camhead] (mor)Man made climbing [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
Mormons believe that all religions that are not their own are of the devil. this is disrespectful at the least.

100% catagorically false, period.

Over and over again the leaders of the church have said that other religions contain truth, (sorry I don't have an exact citation at the moment.) I think you are mistaking Mormons with the Southern Baptists :-). Anyway, if we believed that all other churches are "of the devil" why then would basic Mormon beliefs contain such statements as:

"4 We believe that religion is instituted of God; and that men are amenable to him, and to him only, for the exercise of it, unless their religious opinions prompt them to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others; but we do not believe that human law has a right to interfere in prescribing rules of aworship to bind the consciences of men, nor dictate forms for public or private devotion; that the civil magistrate should restrain crime, but never control conscience; should punish bguilt, but never suppress the freedom of the soul."

"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own cconscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."


jcasper


Dec 15, 2006, 3:25 PM
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Re: [camhead] (mor)Man made climbing [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
BOTTOM LINE---
The mormon church is at its heart intolerant and disrespectful.

say what you want, but in 2 Nephi... there is a church of the lamb and a church of the devil. nothing more. Mormons believe that all religions that are not their own are of the devil. this is disrespectful at the least.

Hehe, realized your 2 Nephi 10:16 was wrong eh? :) Let me help you out, 1 Nephi 14:10:

1 Nephi 14:10 wrote:
And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

In 1 Nephi 14, a prophet, Nephi, is seeing the future in a vision. This particular verse is talking about how before the second coming Christ (i.e. still in the future for us), the people on earth will polarize into those that follow God and those that fight against Him. Verse 14 defines the "church of the Lamb of God" as the "saints of God, who were also upon all the face of the earth." He is talking about a group of people who are obedient to God's commandments, not members of a particular organization. The use of the word "church" here is a bit confusing but is cleared up in verse 14. It follows then, and modern day prophets have clarified, that the "church of the devil" is not a particular church or group of church, but those people that rebel against God and follow Satan as their leader. I'll spare you the comparison of this prophesy and that of John's in the book of Revelation, where he too talks about a "whore that sitteth upon many waters" in Revelation 17:1.

That being said. It is true that we believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, is exactly what its name says, the church of Jesus Christ, literally. Being the literal church of Jesus Christ, we have the truth, i.e. the doctrine taught by the church is literally the doctrine taught by God himself. By so saying that our doctrine is correct, we are, by definition, saying that conflicting doctrines of other churches are incorrect. By saying that their conflicting doctrines are incorrect, we do not say they are totally incorrect. As fluxus pointed out, pretty much all churches have a lot of truth. Any church that motivates people to do good, is good, and thats that. Any church that claims any particular doctrine true is in turn claiming churches that teach a conflicting doctrine are incorrect. For things that matter, there can only be one truth. Either there is an after life or there isn't. Either Christ atoned for our sins or He didn't, either you need to be baptized or you don't, the Godhead is either three entities in one or it isn't, etc.

Most important to this particular topic is what we DO NOT claim, and what is often assumed to be an extrapolation of the above claims, and that is that we believe the people in other religions are horrible people that will suffer in a firey hell for eternity. That is wrong, and any member of the church that says or believes that is, I believe, guilty of a grevous sin (improper judgment).

camhead wrote:
non-mormons are regurgitating the same rumors and misinformation propogated by anti-mormon evangelical groups, who are AT LEAST as fucked up as the LDS church.

You shouldn't knock on someone for regurgitating standard anti-mormon propaganda in one breath, then do it yourself in the next!


(This post was edited by jcasper on Dec 15, 2006, 3:30 PM)


camhead


Dec 15, 2006, 3:30 PM
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Re: [fluxus] (mor)Man made climbing [In reply to]
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okay, dude. you bit, I'm attacking...

TRUE: many Mormon testimonies end with "I know the Book of Mormon is true." I'm sure that yours does.

TRUE: 1 Nephi 14:10 (sorry, not 2 Nephi)
"there are save two churches only; one is the church of the lamb of god, and the other is the church of the devil... whoso belongeth not to the church of the lamb of god belongeth to... the whore of all the earth."

TRUE: it is disrespectful, in today's culture, to call someone else's church a whore, or abomination, or of the Devil.

If you disagree with any of these statements, then I apologize.

I also apologize if I am confused about Mormon doctrine, and was unaware that the church is categorically just not believing in certain parts of the Book of Mormon.


care to retort?


(This post was edited by camhead on Dec 15, 2006, 3:32 PM)


camhead


Dec 15, 2006, 3:36 PM
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Re: [camhead] (mor)Man made climbing [In reply to]
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woops, sorry dude. our posts got crossed. thanks for the correction on the citation, it's been a while since I read that.

Your justification of the "church of the lamb, church of the devil" bit is still shaky, though.


jcasper


Dec 15, 2006, 3:44 PM
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camhead wrote:
I also apologize if I am confused about Mormon doctrine, and was unaware that the church is categorically just not believing in certain parts of the Book of Mormon.

You are confused about the doctrine, but we do not not believe in certain parts of the Book of Mormon. We believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. To prevent possible further attacks, understand that the Book of Mormon is a complex book, like the bible, and it takes a LOT to understand it fully. I've read it cover to cover dozens of times and still feel like I only have an elementary understanding of it. Therefore, before attacking based on what you understand the book to be saying, it may be more appropriate to ask a knowledgeable member of the church what it means first. :)

And while I'm on a role... a quick note to mention that this is a huge part of the reason why modern day prophets are necessary. Both the Bible and the Book of Mormon are only written as clearly and well as the mortal prophet who wrote them could. The doctrine that the prophet was trying to convey is always truth, but because any written language is imperfect, the meaning of what is written can be interpreted to be different than what the prophet who wrote it was trying to convey. By having modern day prophets, God has someone to clarify His word so we can know which interpretation of the written word is what the original author meant.


(This post was edited by jcasper on Dec 15, 2006, 3:52 PM)


fluxus


Dec 15, 2006, 3:56 PM
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Re: [camhead] (mor)Man made climbing [In reply to]
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camhead,

When attacking religion / scriptures you need to know how the texts are interperted, understood and used by the religious group in question. For example, would you read passages in leviticus regarding purity laws and then go on to say: "did you know that all Jews believe that women should be locked up for seven days during their monthly period? and that if a man has sex with a woman during her period that he should be put to death?" I have a hard time believing you or anyone else would do this.

Why not ask a question rather than launching an attack? For example: "Say you guys, what does that Church of the devil passage mean anyway? it looks like it condems all other religions, is that so?"


camhead


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then, why do prophets say something like "black people will never hold the priesthood."? Brigham Young said this, and no I don't have the quote exactly. Disprove me, though. I dare ya.

Terms such as "true," "never," and "word of God" imply a sense of absolutism that is not in your shoddy qualifications.

oh, and congrats for sucking me into this debate. it is a black hole, and neither of us wil prevail.


fluxus


Dec 15, 2006, 4:07 PM
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jcasper wrote:
By having modern day prophets, God has someone to clarify His word so we can know which interpretation of the written word is what the original author meant.

but even within the faith there is room for disagreement, this image of God as "new critic" (new criticism was popular form of literary analysis in the 1st half of the 20th century it placed emphasis on close readings for the sake of revealing authorial intent.) is a common way of thinking about scriptures in the church but it's not the only one. Other LDS members, thinkers, and scholars use different approaches to understanding scriptures that do not rely on the notion of language as having singular, fixed, or even stable meaning.


jcasper


Dec 15, 2006, 4:38 PM
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camhead wrote:
then, why do prophets say something like "black people will never hold the priesthood."? Brigham Young said this, and no I don't have the quote exactly. Disprove me, though. I dare ya.

Well, this goes back to what I said earlier in the thread about even prophets are not perfect or infallible. If Brigham Young did say that, and I don't know whether he did or not, that was his own opinion based on his understanding of things at the time. Obviously if he said that he was wrong, as black people are now able to hold the priesthood. That statement was not canonized as scripture, and I'm willing to bet wasn't said in a general conference of the church, and wasn't stated as an official statement of fact or prophecy acting in capacity as a prophet of God, but in his own personal communications with others. There is a difference.

So if a prophet is infallible, and can sometimes be wrong, what good are they as a prophet? That's a pretty dang good question and one that I've asked myself a lot. The answer, I believe, is that God himself is the only absolute source of truth. He communicates to people on the earth as a whole through a prophet, to get word out, but also communicates individually with everyone. He does not expect you to blindly follow what a prophet, any body else, or any book says as truth, but will tell you, individually and specifically, that what the prophet has said is true. That's the only way to really know whether something is true or not, at least for me. If a prophet is speaking in a general conference of the church, I'm going to take what he says very seriously, and not discount it without serious consideration. But I will not accept it at truth until I have been told by the Almighty himself that it is true. If a prophet says something in a book or personal communication, such as your example with Brigham Young, then if I don't agree with it I may not take it as seriously. It's all kind of gray area, and I believe is a very individual thing. Each of us is responsible for our own happiness, so each of us has to figure out what we are going to accept.

camhead wrote:
Terms such as "true," "never," and "word of God" imply a sense of absolutism that is not in your shoddy qualifications.

Well, I think the only case where such absolutism can be applied is the case of God. God is truth, in that what God says is true. And that is absolute. And nothing else is.

camhead wrote:
oh, and congrats for sucking me into this debate. it is a black hole, and neither of us wil prevail.

Hehe, I know that as well as you... but I enjoy an occasional debate like this. It helps me clarify my own beliefs, providing both necessary adjustments and confirmation of existing beliefs.


camhead


Dec 15, 2006, 4:44 PM
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In reply to:
Other LDS members, thinkers, and scholars use different approaches to understanding scriptures that do not rely on the notion of language as having singular, fixed, or even stable meaning.

gotcha. kind of like how Joseph Smith said that the Book of Mormon covered the entire North American continent, but now many Mormon thinkers say that, in light of archaeological and DNA evidence, it only took place around a small area of Central America.

Still confuses me how this ever-changing interpretation gels with "TRUTH."

http://www.bookofzelph.com/

bonus points to whomever tells me the historical backing for this satirical page.


jcasper


Dec 15, 2006, 4:45 PM
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fluxus wrote:
but even within the faith there is room for disagreement, this image of God as "new critic" (new criticism was popular form of literary analysis in the 1st half of the 20th century it placed emphasis on close readings for the sake of revealing authorial intent.) is a common way of thinking about scriptures in the church but it's not the only one. Other LDS members, thinkers, and scholars use different approaches to understanding scriptures that do not rely on the notion of language as having singular, fixed, or even stable meaning.

Heh, caught me there. And I agree to some extent. What I said about God providing "what the original author meant", was added on just before posting and in hindsight is not what I meant to say. I absolutely agree that writings of the prophets do not have singular, fixed, or stable meaning. I guess I meant that God provides true doctrine today through living prophets. And with that true doctrine we are better equipped to understand and use the scriptures that we have for our benefit.


flamer


Dec 15, 2006, 5:13 PM
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fluxus wrote:
Judging from your climbing log you couldn't keep up with me past the warm-up. :-)


Ok sport'o...thing is you couldn't keep up past the first 100ft.

josh


fluxus


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camhead wrote:
Still confuses me how this ever-changing interpretation gels with "TRUTH."

Mormon theology is a bit different from that of other Christian groups. For many Christian groups the scriptures are the ultimate standard against which all claims made by instutions & individuals are measured.

If a priest, high ranking official or lay member of some Christian groups makes claims that are in conflict with traditional interpretations of scriptures or doctrine it is understood that their claims conflict with the accepted truth and therefore must be wrong. These groups also have an idea of God as completely unchanging in any way.

Mormons are different because 1) The Mormon theology poses a God that can and to some extent does change, not ontologically mind you, but in what God communicates to humans. and 2) In Mormon theology revelation trumps scripture. In other words the leader of the Church can receive new doctrines, commands, insights from God that can change doctrine and or change the meaning of scripture or how scripture is used etc.

For example in 1978 president Kimbal received revelation from God that African Americans SHOULD get the priesthood, despite a tradition in the church to deny it to them based on a scripture I quoted earlier in this thread. So the notion of truth for Mormons does not require a fixed, singualr meaning for doctrine or scripture. The "truth" can and does change in the church. The troubling things about this example is that it took a revelation to change a practice that was so clearly not-ethical and not mandated by the scripture in question. By 1978 instutional racism was well understood, different methods of analysis and criticism were avalble to readers of the text, so its particularly difficult to understand (at least for me) why this took so long to change, why something that should have been obvious required a revelation at all. Such cases are certainly a point of entry into an instutional criticism of the church and its patriarchy.

But in reality all churches see changes in their understanding of scripture and or changes in their doctrine as well but because they believe in a singular, universal, unchanging notion of truth, they don't recognize these changes as such. What they usually do is to state that earlier doctrine / preaching was a marginal or incorrect practice of a few people but it was not the "true" meaning or practice which of course is defined by the most current understanding. previous truths are marginalized and redefined in order to maintain the notion of the universal and unchanging.


fluxus


Dec 15, 2006, 6:12 PM
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Re: [flamer] (mor)Man made climbing [In reply to]
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flamer wrote:
Ok sport'o...thing is you couldn't keep up past the first 100ft.

josh

I can easily climb a 1,000 feet or so of 5.10 - 5.11 in a day no problem, a series of 200 ft 5.11c pitches sounds like fun to me. On the other hand if you are talking about off-width, then I doubt I could go even 25ft, and if you are talking about friction slab I probably wouldn't even tie in.

it sounds like you are about to challenge me to a duel.


camhead


Dec 15, 2006, 6:17 PM
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fluxus wrote:
For example in 1978 president Kimbal received revelation from God that African Americans SHOULD get the priesthood, despite a tradition in the church to deny it to them based on a scripture I quoted earlier in this thread. So the notion of truth for Mormons does not require a fixed, singualr meaning for doctrine or scripture. The "truth" can and does change in the church. The troubling things about this example is that it took a revelation to change a practice that was so clearly not-ethical and not mandated by the scripture in question. By 1978 instutional racism was well understood, different methods of analysis and criticism were avalble to readers of the text, so its particularly difficult to understand (at least for me) why this took so long to change, why something that should have been obvious required a revelation at all. Such cases are certainly a point of entry into an instutional criticism of the church and its patriarchy.

It took until 1978, because most general authorities were on record as not wanting to appear to be catering to radical Civil Rights leaders. David O'McKay proposed giving blacks the priesthood in the late 50s, but was not successful for this reason.

Incidently, Ezra T. Benson repeatedly emphasized that Martin Luther King had been a stooge for the Russian communists, and that giving blacks the priesthood would be a victory for the godless soviets. Was that divine revelation?

Furthermore, the exclusion of blacks in the Church was based less on scripture (other than maybe the whole 'Mark of Cain' or maybe 'curse of Ham' thing), and more on prophets' revelations.

Now, you mormons...

"white and delightsome;" discuss, apologize, and justify.


flamer


Dec 15, 2006, 6:35 PM
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fluxus wrote:
flamer wrote:
Ok sport'o...thing is you couldn't keep up past the first 100ft.

josh

I can easily climb a 1,000 feet or so of 5.10 - 5.11 in a day no problem, a series of 200 ft 5.11c pitches sounds like fun to me. On the other hand if you are talking about off-width, then I doubt I could go even 25ft, and if you are talking about friction slab I probably wouldn't even tie in.

it sounds like you are about to challenge me to a duel.

Duel huh?
Seems as if I made a suggestion that the 2 of us would make a good climbing team.....
Followed by a statement from you telling me how you were a much better climber than I.

So In the first place you have me extending an olive branch of sorts.....followed by an attack. I'm the one challenging? What did I miss?

Now I realise that our previous going's on were not of the nicest kind. However when I offer common ground, I get attacked. Then By responding to said attack, you attack back and try to turn it around....hmmmm.

I'm not even going to respond to what you said about climbing.....but I did have a chuckle...Thanks!

josh


flamer


Dec 15, 2006, 6:38 PM
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Camhead...thanks for stepping in and eloquently doing what I obviously cannot.....

josh


price1869


Dec 15, 2006, 10:12 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXOh4g_FLIM


fluxus


Dec 15, 2006, 10:28 PM
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camhead wrote:
It took until 1978, because most general authorities were on record as not wanting to appear to be catering to radical Civil Rights leaders. David O'McKay proposed giving blacks the priesthood in the late 50s, but was not successful for this reason.

Incidently, Ezra T. Benson repeatedly emphasized that Martin Luther King had been a stooge for the Russian communists, and that giving blacks the priesthood would be a victory for the godless soviets. Was that divine revelation?

Furthermore, the exclusion of blacks in the Church was based less on scripture (other than maybe the whole 'Mark of Cain' or maybe 'curse of Ham' thing), and more on prophets' revelations.

Now, you mormons...

"white and delightsome;" discuss, apologize, and justify.

Discuss sure, justify nope. I think we are making similar points. Clearly there was racism present in the leadership of the church of that era. Finding racism among older white men in the 50s & 60s, (not to mention the 70s, 80s, 90s and even today) was not exactly challenging. I wish that the leaders of the church were not effected by the historical context in which they live but they are, always have been, always will be. The OT is full of examples of brutal acts and teaching. How one deals with this, processes it spiritually, emotionally, and intellectually is a matter of personal importance.

in anycase Bensons attitude towards socialism was certainly not revelation. Remember that church leaders are just as flawed as the rest of us. Benson was a conservative ideologe. If I remember correctly he was pro-Macarthy. Politically and intellectually many of his views were suspect, repugnant, wrong. So there are a few different ways of dealing with that. I try to see the whole man. Try to come to terms with someone who was clearly a complex individual.

But also you don't need to go back to Benson to find such troubling views. I'm a socialist of the type defined by the project for radical democracy as described by political philosophers such as Laclaw and Mouffe (NOT what Benson attacked as socialism). I hear church members saying stupid things about liberals, socialists, the ACLU, democrats, homosexuals, etc all the time. Most go so far as to strongly conflate their political ideology with their theology (there was an absurd book published in 1965 called liberalism, conservatism and Mormonism that actually attempted to argue the theological superiority of right wing politics!)

Of course the difference is that these individual church members don't hold powerful positions in government and so they can't do much harm. Benson was a different story.

Anyway, fully adknowledging racist and politically regressive view among past and present church leaders / members. What do you think we should make of it all? Do you want to say that this is proff that the church is not a good church or that I should loose my faith? I think all it shows is that these people are human, very, very human and have a lot of spiritual growing to do.

I couldn't find any quotes from Benson concerning Dr. King so if you have a citation please pass it along. (Same goes for revelation regarding balcks not getting the priesthood. )


stymingersfink


Dec 16, 2006, 2:05 AM
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everything I need to know about mormons I learned from matt and treySmile

the nice thing is on sundays they go to their church, I go to mine.

The funny thing is, they built their big temple out of pieces of mine, but I got the better deal... it cuts down on the crowding at the crag on sundays. It was a fair trade, IMHO.


camhead


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fluxus:

Armand Mauss, All Abraham's Children: Changing Mormon Conceptions of Race and Lineage.

I'm still confused at how, when presented with scriptural ambiguities, you say "it's up to the prophet to interpret these confusing scriptures," but when presented with prophets' errors, you say "they are human, they make mistakes."


jcasper


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Re: [camhead] (mor)Man made climbing [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
I'm still confused at how, when presented with scriptural ambiguities, you say "it's up to the prophet to interpret these confusing scriptures," but when presented with prophets' errors, you say "they are human, they make mistakes."

I can't believe I'm on my computer on a weekend. :) (so I'll make this short)

For my answer to this question go back a page to the paragraph I wrote that starts "So if a prophet can sometimes be wrong, what good are they as a prophet?" Also look back at a small exchange fluxus and I had around the turn of the page, where I conceded that I wasn't totally correct in how I phrased the role of a prophet in interpreting scripture. Sometimes a prophet will give a direct interpretation of a scripture, and its up to us to seek guidance from God to determine for ourselves if that interpretation is a correct (although maybe not the only correct) interpretation. However, other times a prophet expounds doctrine and we must use that doctrine (after confirmation from God of its truth) to further our understanding of the scriptures.


fluxus


Dec 18, 2006, 9:10 AM
Post #113 of 113 (638 views)
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Registered: Apr 2, 2003
Posts: 947

Re: [camhead] (mor)Man made climbing [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
fluxus:

I'm still confused at how, when presented with scriptural ambiguities, you say "it's up to the prophet to interpret these confusing scriptures," but when presented with prophets' errors, you say "they are human, they make mistakes."

I think you are confusing my posts with jcasper's. I certainly don't leave the interpertation of scriptures "up to" to the church leadership. and I doubt that I ever will use the term "confusing" in relation to scripture. I take reading, re-reading, interpertation, understanding historical context, learning the textual history etc. as the duty of everyone who engages sacred texts.

Did you present me with scriptural ambiguities? The last post I replied to contained none. It contained claims about racism in the leadership of the church during the 50s - 70s. A claim that I think is broadly accurate even if some of your specifics were not fully developed.


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