|
|
|
|
gblauer
Moderator
Feb 12, 2007, 12:05 PM
Post #1 of 256
(8793 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 3, 2002
Posts: 2599
|
On Saturday, 2/10, I lead an easy 5.7 as a warm down. I got to the top of climb, clipped the last bolt, called out to my belayer and let her know that I was done with the climb and that I was going to drop off the wall. She acknowledged me and off I came.
Edited: I called down to her, let her know that I was at the top of the climb. I was a foot above my last bolt, so I elected to let go and "drop" off the wall rather than sling the horn. She acknowledged my intentions and said that she was ready for me.
I never felt the "tug" of the catch and continue to ride to rope all the way down to the floor. I landed on my feet, crunched into a ball, rolled on to my back. I immediately felt a "bloom" of searing pain across my lower back. Two days later, I am out of the hospital with an L2 compression fracture.
What did I learn?
1) It can happen to anyone (yes, even you)
2) You are only as strong as the weakest link in your system
3) Cull the herd; select your belayers carefully and only allow those you trust to give you a belay
4) Keep your circle small; know your belayers, constantly check on their potential for distraction, moods and energy level
So, several months of hard core training down the drain with one 30 foot fall. I really hope I can get my head back together.
Climb on.
(This post was edited by gblauer on Feb 12, 2007, 12:47 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
zeke_sf
Feb 12, 2007, 12:12 PM
Post #2 of 256
(8758 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 18730
|
I'm very sorry to hear that! I know it's hard, but be thankful the results were not worse, as they easily could have been (recent belay related fatality at Owens). I wish you a speedy recovery, as that is going to be the hardest part (trust me, I've been out for three weeks because of an injury). Good luck!
|
|
|
|
|
granite_grrl
Feb 12, 2007, 12:16 PM
Post #3 of 256
(8728 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: 14048
|
gblauer wrote: So, several months of hard core training down the drain with one 30 foot fall. I really hope I can get my head back together.
I'm glad you didn't loose anything more. I hope that you'll heal well and I'm glad that you're around to write this post.
Too many people think "it wouldn't happen to me", but this kind of shit happens when you least expect it. It can happen to you.
It took me a couple of reads to understand what happened (I think). You were going to take a practice fall off the top and were never caught? Am I understanding what happened.
|
|
|
|
|
styndall
Feb 12, 2007, 12:17 PM
Post #4 of 256
(8721 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 29, 2002
Posts: 2741
|
What happened?
Did she just not lock off? Did she think you were going to rap? Did she walk off and leave?
|
|
|
|
|
raymondjeffrey
Feb 12, 2007, 12:22 PM
Post #5 of 256
(8701 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 2, 2004
Posts: 361
|
I'm as confused as styndall is: What the hell does 'drop off the wall' even mean? In AZ we say something like "Got me?" before we lower off. If we are rapping then our belayer knows this cuz we say 'Off belay, I'm gonna rap'.
|
|
|
|
|
roy_hinkley_jr
Feb 12, 2007, 12:24 PM
Post #6 of 256
(8689 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 8, 2005
Posts: 652
|
Ask your doctor about an injection of bone cement into your L2. This is commonly done on octogenarians who have compression fractures but they often won't tell young'uns about the treatment. It can dramatically speed healing time. Otherwise, you are looking at 6 months of no climbing plus another 6 months before you're mostly without pain. The back brace they may offer helps for the 1st month but is nasty to use. Vicodin is your friend. There are no exercises that will help, though lots of well-meaning friends with no experience will suggest otherwise. It's just a matter of time for the bone to heal.
Count yourself lucky...it coulda been *much* worse.
(This post was edited by roy_hinkley_jr on Feb 12, 2007, 12:25 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
the_climber
Feb 12, 2007, 12:25 PM
Post #7 of 256
(8684 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 8, 2003
Posts: 6142
|
DUDE! Holy shit!
Sorry to hear about this. Glad it wasn't worse. Man you could have cracked your head open on top of everything too. I Truely hope you heal as fast as possible. Worry about getting your head around things AFTER you heal physically. The unf^*cking of the head will happen in time. Heal your body first..... Oh, and Fire your belayer! I've been dropped a few times before. About 25 feet max, and it sucks. Huts too. Wheather it was a comunication error, or inattention, it is not excusable. Back injuries suck big time. Hurt mine in highschool football, didn't break it, but came close. Take my advice don't push it and try to get back too some. Take the time to heal. And be happy you're still here.
Wish you all the best,
B
|
|
|
|
|
iamthewallress
Feb 12, 2007, 12:25 PM
Post #8 of 256
(8680 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 1, 2003
Posts: 2463
|
I'm really sorry that you got hurt, gblauer. I've had my own close call, although it was different in nature to yours. A couple of things on my list of stuff I learned might be good on yours too.
1. I try to trust myself on the rock as my primary attachment, and the belay system second.
When I have the option (i.e. I'm not out of control and falling), I like to double check my attachment to the belays system before committing my life to it. That means that I pull on the belayer side of the rope to give myself a back up until I feel the belayer get me on tension.
When being lowered, if practical, I might keep a hand on the other side of the rope so that if control of the belay is unexpectedly lost, I can grab it and save my bacon.
2. When possible I rap instead of lower. I am probably more aware of my life wish than anyone else...even those that love me.
I am also most aware of my attachment when it's all there in front of me, and I can test the system while backed up to slings at the anchor. I can't always see what's going on w/ my belayer.
I feel like I am less likely to be accidentally lowered off the end of the rope or taken off belay someday if I take the extra time to rest on top (if necessary) then rap.
I am less likely to do this if we're running laps on a TR that's already set up though. In that case, I do keep ahold of the opposite side of the rope.
FWIW, I know climbing legends who've been dropped or dropped others. It is partly from them, that I've learned to take care of myself when possible/practical before choosing to put my life in someone else's hand (i.e. taking or lowering). Parnter screening is important, but if you put yourself in the position of being in control of your safety, you'll probably be even safer.
Heal quickly!!!
(This post was edited by iamthewallress on Feb 12, 2007, 12:28 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
Dillbag
Feb 12, 2007, 12:25 PM
Post #9 of 256
(8676 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 9, 2007
Posts: 92
|
raymondjeffrey wrote: I'm as confused as styndall is: What the hell does 'drop off the wall' even mean? In AZ we say something like "Got me?" before we lower off. If we are rapping then our belayer knows this cuz we say 'Off belay, I'm gonna rap'.
I am also confused... was it a lack of clear communication? Or someone who didn't really understand and have mastered the ability to belay a leader?
Hope you have a fast recovery!
|
|
|
|
|
gblauer
Moderator
Feb 12, 2007, 12:26 PM
Post #10 of 256
(8674 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 3, 2002
Posts: 2599
|
styndall wrote: What happened? Did she just not lock off? Did she think you were going to rap? Did she walk off and leave?
Based on my injuries and memory of the fall, I think she must have had some control of the rope. I only injured my back; my knees, feet, hips were all fine. She reported a burning on her palm. She knows that she lost control of the rope and could not regain control.
|
|
|
|
|
gblauer
Moderator
Feb 12, 2007, 12:28 PM
Post #11 of 256
(8658 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 3, 2002
Posts: 2599
|
raymondjeffrey wrote: I'm as confused as styndall is: What the hell does 'drop off the wall' even mean? In AZ we say something like "Got me?" before we lower off. If we are rapping then our belayer knows this cuz we say 'Off belay, I'm gonna rap'.
Sorry for the confusion...I told her that I was done with the climb and was going to let go. I have climbed with her before and she new that I was going to drop below my last bolt. A mini practice fall if you will. Her job was to catch me and lower me to the ground.
|
|
|
|
|
Dillbag
Feb 12, 2007, 12:29 PM
Post #12 of 256
(8654 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 9, 2007
Posts: 92
|
What type of belay device was it? Just curious...
|
|
|
|
|
gblauer
Moderator
Feb 12, 2007, 12:31 PM
Post #13 of 256
(8637 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 3, 2002
Posts: 2599
|
Dillbag wrote: What type of belay device was it? Just curious...
ATC
|
|
|
|
|
maldaly
Feb 12, 2007, 12:32 PM
Post #14 of 256
(8634 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 31, 2002
Posts: 1190
|
Sorry to hear about your accident. I compressed L3 a long time ago and it was a month of recovery before I felt like climbing. Roy Hinkley's compression must have been really bad.
I'm with 'thewallress here. The single most important thing I do before being lowered off is make eye contact with the belayer to be sure he/she is paying attention and has got me. The second most important thing I do is to hold on to the other side of the rope with a death grip until I can feel that the bealyer has me. I HATE it when the leader clips the anchors then just drops off, assuming that I have him. No way...
Mal
|
|
|
|
|
taino
Feb 12, 2007, 12:33 PM
Post #15 of 256
(8623 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 5371
|
Bejeezuz, Gail...
I'm so sorry... If there's something I can do, please let me know - even if it's to second you on 5.2 while you get your lead-head back, when you get out again. :^)
It's amazing that such a thing could happen, especially to you with your experience. Definitely fire your belayer; she's getting off easy with only hand-burns.
Please keep me appraised of your progress, okay?
Tai
|
|
|
|
|
redpoint73
Feb 12, 2007, 12:34 PM
Post #16 of 256
(8620 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 1717
|
So what exactly happened, what was her explanation?
Sounds like maybe she lost grip of the rope.
|
|
|
|
|
gblauer
Moderator
Feb 12, 2007, 12:37 PM
Post #17 of 256
(8605 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 3, 2002
Posts: 2599
|
redpoint73 wrote: So what exactly happened, what was her explanation? Sounds like maybe she lost grip of the rope.
She believes that she had me initially, but, somehow lost control of the rope and could not regain the control. She doesn't really know what happened. The gym owner will conduct an interview, look at her equipment etc. I don't know if he will come up with anything.
|
|
|
|
|
gblauer
Moderator
Feb 12, 2007, 12:38 PM
Post #18 of 256
(8598 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 3, 2002
Posts: 2599
|
Tai...thanks so much for your support. I will keep you posted through email. Gail
|
|
|
|
|
zeke_sf
Feb 12, 2007, 12:39 PM
Post #19 of 256
(8598 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 18730
|
maldaly wrote: I HATE it when the leader clips the anchors then just drops off, assuming that I have him. No way... Mal
I think it should be a safe assumption you do have the belay, and I'll also admit I'm guilty of the above practice. Unless "off belay" is involved, there's no excuse....Usually I try to make eye contact, maybe a "you got me?" type thing. This unfortunate experience does show, however, that even the simplest situation in our sport merits another look by even the most experienced. Poor Gblauer gets on what she thinks is a casual 5.7 and ends up with a serious injury.
|
|
|
|
|
reg
Feb 12, 2007, 12:44 PM
Post #20 of 256
(8571 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 1560
|
OUCH !! hope your recovery is rapid - from your profile pic (your racked up and loaded for bear) you seem to have enough expeirence. what happened that she dropped you? was she not looking ? was she not holding the rope. did you make eye contact before droping off. lot's to be learned but communication i think is high on that list. get well soon.
|
|
|
|
|
markc
Feb 12, 2007, 12:44 PM
Post #21 of 256
(8569 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 2448
|
I'm really sorry to hear about your accident. I hope you mend well and soon, both physically and mentally. I can imagine the psychological damage will take some time.
Would you be willing to answer a couple questions? I'm curious to know what you said you your belayer, if there was a reaction, and where this took place. Have you been belayed by this person before?
The reason I ask is because I think some of us (myself included) can get lax with commands. I've had partners complete a climb and say, "Okay." I'm sure I've been guilty of it myself. Is the person ready to be lowered, is she anchored in and it's okay to remove the belay? It doesn't really mean anything.
Context can also play a role. In the gym, "okay" seems more excusable. There's the expectation that you'll be lowered off every route. With a regular partner in a noisy gym, I've used a hand signal or given a look and a nod. Maybe not the best practice, but it's easy to get lulled into a complacent state with loads of cycles that have gone smoothly.
|
|
|
|
|
redpoint73
Feb 12, 2007, 12:46 PM
Post #22 of 256
(8559 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 1717
|
My guess is she lets the rope slide through her brake hand in order to lower you, and let it zip through her hand too fast. Once its starts to go, you cannot stop it.
When I have taught beginners, I will show them to lower with both hands on the rope, and hand-over-hand the rope to feed it. That way, you always have a secure grip on the rope with at least one hand, as opposed to just letting it slide through your palm. Its not as fast, but it is safer.
Oh, and just to be clear, I'm not so much giving this advice to the OP, but more as just a tip for the more novice viewers of this forum.
(This post was edited by redpoint73 on Feb 12, 2007, 12:50 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
Creek_Nostalgia
Feb 12, 2007, 12:50 PM
Post #23 of 256
(8537 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 24, 2007
Posts: 13
|
sorry to hear about your accident! I want to send some encouragement your way, however. 6 weeks ago i broke my back. compression fractures in T6 and T7 as a result of cliff diving. The recovery is speedy and you'll be back on your feet in no time!! so no worries! pick a belayer you often climb with so you know eachothers ability and develop trust!
|
|
|
|
|
gblauer
Moderator
Feb 12, 2007, 12:54 PM
Post #24 of 256
(8522 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 3, 2002
Posts: 2599
|
markc wrote: Would you be willing to answer a couple questions? I'm curious to know what you said you your belayer, if there was a reaction, and where this took place. Have you been belayed by this person before? The reason I ask is because I think some of us (myself included) can get lax with commands. I've had partners complete a climb and say, "Okay." I'm sure I've been guilty of it myself. Is the person ready to be lowered, is she anchored in and it's okay to remove the belay? It doesn't really mean anything.
1) I have climbed with her on several occasions. She knows that I never sling the horn and take mini practice falls at the end of every climb.
2) I was hanging off the last hold, a foot above my last bolt. I told her that I was done with the climb. "I'm done Nancy, coming off" . She acknowledged me with an "ok". We made eye contact and I let go of the last hold.
3) When I am outdoors I use very distinct commands:
On belay, off belay, on rappel, off rappel, take etc.
I never vary with my commands.
4) When I am indoors, since I always have eye contact with my belayer, I always let them know that I am going to drop off the wall. Again I ALWAYS take mini falls at the top of every climb. I always wait for my belayer to acknowledge my intention.
|
|
|
|
|
the_climber
Feb 12, 2007, 12:57 PM
Post #25 of 256
(8509 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 8, 2003
Posts: 6142
|
redpoint73 wrote: My guess is she lets the rope slide through her brake hand in order to lower you, and let it zip through her hand too fast. Once its starts to go, you cannot stop it. When I have taught beginners, I will show them to lower with both hands on the rope, and hand-over-hand the rope to feed it. That way, you always have a secure grip on the rope with at least one hand, as opposed to just letting it slide through your palm. Its not as fast, but it is safer. Oh, and just to be clear, I'm not so much giving this advice to the OP, but more as just a tip for the more novice viewers of this forum.
On that note I would have to disagree with you on the hand over hand thing. It encourages letting go with the break hand... despite having another hand on the rope. I would recomend to the novice to use both hands on the rope, but to lower as normal. But this is off topic and best for a separate discussion.
Regardless of how it happened, it happened. Rest up good and heal. When you are ready to get back at it. Take things slowly and set realistic goals. You'll get there, but it will take time.
Side note: Seems like there are a lot of us on here recovering from one injury or another...
|
|
|
|
|
markc
Feb 12, 2007, 1:09 PM
Post #26 of 256
(3082 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 2448
|
gblauer wrote: markc wrote: Would you be willing to answer a couple questions? I'm curious to know what you said you your belayer, if there was a reaction, and where this took place. Have you been belayed by this person before? The reason I ask is because I think some of us (myself included) can get lax with commands. I've had partners complete a climb and say, "Okay." I'm sure I've been guilty of it myself. Is the person ready to be lowered, is she anchored in and it's okay to remove the belay? It doesn't really mean anything. 1) I have climbed with her on several occasions. She knows that I never sling the horn and take mini practice falls at the end of every climb. 2) I was hanging off the last hold, a foot above my last bolt. I told her that I was done with the climb. "I'm done Nancy, coming off" . She acknowledged me with an "ok". We made eye contact and I let go of the last hold. 3) When I am outdoors I use very distinct commands: On belay, off belay, on rappel, off rappel, take etc. I never vary with my commands. 4) When I am indoors, since I always have eye contact with my belayer, I always let them know that I am going to drop off the wall. Again I ALWAYS take mini falls at the top of every climb. I always wait for my belayer to acknowledge my intention.
Yikes! It doesn't sound like you could have done anything more. It sounds like belayer error, and that your partner isn't very clear on what happened. Again, I hope you're recovered and climbing as soon as possible.
|
|
|
|
|
redpoint73
Feb 12, 2007, 1:12 PM
Post #27 of 256
(3076 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 1717
|
the_climber wrote: redpoint73 wrote: My guess is she lets the rope slide through her brake hand in order to lower you, and let it zip through her hand too fast. Once its starts to go, you cannot stop it. When I have taught beginners, I will show them to lower with both hands on the rope, and hand-over-hand the rope to feed it. That way, you always have a secure grip on the rope with at least one hand, as opposed to just letting it slide through your palm. Its not as fast, but it is safer. Oh, and just to be clear, I'm not so much giving this advice to the OP, but more as just a tip for the more novice viewers of this forum. On that note I would have to disagree with you on the hand over hand thing. It encourages letting go with the break hand... despite having another hand on the rope. I would recomend to the novice to use both hands on the rope, but to lower as normal. But this is off topic and best for a separate discussion.
I can respect that opinion, and can see your point. If a beginner is still trying to get the belay movements down as second nature w/o releasing the rope, then maybe that method of lowering is not the best.
|
|
|
|
|
thomasribiere
Feb 12, 2007, 1:41 PM
Post #28 of 256
(3034 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 24, 2002
Posts: 9305
|
Sorry to hear that. I wish you a safe and complete recovery. Give us news from the swimming pool...
|
|
|
|
|
silascl
Feb 12, 2007, 2:49 PM
Post #29 of 256
(2974 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 14, 2006
Posts: 225
|
Sounds like the belayer tried to lower him from the start, as opposed to locking off and catching, then lowering.
After the initial fall it would be tough to catch if your brake hand was in a neutral position and not locking off.
|
|
|
|
|
rai
Feb 12, 2007, 3:07 PM
Post #30 of 256
(2945 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 6, 2006
Posts: 15
|
Sorry to hear about your bad luck there.
I just want to suggest one thing to all that read ...
first off, this type of accident is WAY WAY too common in our sport, which surprises me because it seems fairly simple to master - and I mean the communication/basics aspect.
If a climber is going to thread the anchors and then be lowered, he should go straight into the anchors and then say "Slack. I'm in direct (or straight)". Then, thread 'em, retie, drop the slack (while still in direct) and say TAKE.
When you say TAKE, you never assume you are safe to unclip until you feel the obvious tension (and ideally also hear Gotcha).
If there is no rethreading happening, you get to the top and you just yell TAKE. You don't let go until you feel obvious tension.
If you are going to rap, and only if you are going to rap - you say OFF BELAY. Saying Off Belay to thread the anchors and then be lowered by a belayer who may have walked away is just dicey....
I know not all of this applies in this situation, but 'drop off' is a bizarre command - I've climbed all over the country and in several other countries and I've never heard "drop off" ... we should avoid using casual commands that we come up with in our circles... We need to universalize the commands so that your friend that you teach to climb in the local crag can hang with the big dogs when he/she goes climbing without you - dropping the big dogs is never fun ...
|
|
|
|
|
gblauer
Moderator
Feb 12, 2007, 3:19 PM
Post #31 of 256
(2937 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 3, 2002
Posts: 2599
|
" I know not all of this applies in this situation, but 'drop off' is a bizarre command - I've climbed all over the country and in several other countries and I've never heard "drop off" ... "
I did not use the words "drop off". Please read the thread. I said that I dropped off the wall.
Irrespective of what I said or DIDN"T say, it's ALWAYS the belayers responsibility to be attentive enough to catch a fall. If I say "falling", "take" or NOTHING at all, the belayers job is to CATCH the fall, without warning, without verbal exchange, without eye contact. Think about how many times on a multipitch climb you lose sight of your climber while belaying. Does that remove your responsibility as a belayer? NO!
In this case my belayer was known to me, my climbing style and habits were known to her. I had a verbal exchange and eye contact, yet, my belayer still lost control of the rope. She fully acknowledges that she lost control, but, does not understand why or how.
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
Feb 12, 2007, 3:20 PM
Post #32 of 256
(2935 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 8186
|
I never thought belaying was important and climbers could get hurt like that but now you opened my eyes to reality.
Thanks , I am glade to see you are alive.
By the way, how is her hand doing ? Any burning marks on her fingers?
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Feb 12, 2007, 10:46 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Feb 12, 2007, 3:24 PM
Post #33 of 256
(2929 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17347
|
gblauer wrote: She knows that I never sling the horn and take mini practice falls at the end of every climb.
Every climb? Do you intend to continue this practice?
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
gblauer
Moderator
Feb 12, 2007, 3:26 PM
Post #34 of 256
(2926 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 3, 2002
Posts: 2599
|
majid_sabet wrote: By the way, how is her hand doing ? Any buring marks on her fingers?
She reported burning on her hand, with some blisters. Her head is far worse, but, we are working on that.
|
|
|
|
|
gblauer
Moderator
Feb 12, 2007, 3:32 PM
Post #35 of 256
(2907 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 3, 2002
Posts: 2599
|
Dingus,
When I am training indoors, I drill falling for at least 15 minutes of my 3 hour workout. Sometimes I do it for a straight 15 minutes, or other times I do it at the top of routes. Understand, the gym where I climb, the last bolt is at most 4 feet below the horn. I always clip the last bolt and I always take the "victory whip". I rarely do this outdoors, unless it is a completely inconsequential fall.
I find that falling drills allow me to have a clear head when I am outdoors. I have spent the last 3 months training for a trip to Mexico (2/23-3/4). I wanted to be in top shape both mentally and phsyically.
Do I plan to continue this practice?
Who knows if I will have the "head" to do it. I will consult with Arno on that one...
|
|
|
|
|
puerto
Feb 12, 2007, 3:44 PM
Post #36 of 256
(2888 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2005
Posts: 229
|
Damn that sucks..
Obviously the belayer's fault, but non-standard commands like "coming on" or doing non-standard things at the anchor like practice falls just scare me..
Not saying it's the case here either, but I could easily imagine a scenario where someone's used to hearing "take" for years and years, then climbs with someone who uses another command for several months, and seems to be doing fine, then in one split second those years of being conditioned to "take" do not kick in because a different command was heard..
After reading about so many of these accidents, (like many on here) I just prefer to rap these days..
Best wishes for a speedy recovery
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
Feb 12, 2007, 4:00 PM
Post #37 of 256
(2856 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 8186
|
gblauer wrote: majid_sabet wrote: By the way, how is her hand doing ? Any burning marks on her fingers? She reported burning on her hand, with some blisters. Her head is far worse, but, we are working on that.
Oh My GOD
Her hand got burnt by passing rope, how could this be possible ?
I guess a pair of leather gloves could help, do not you think SO ?
|
|
|
|
|
shimanilami
Feb 12, 2007, 4:01 PM
Post #38 of 256
(2854 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 1998
|
IMHO, if you plan to practice falling, make sure your belayer has a Gri-Gri.
|
|
|
|
|
silascl
Feb 12, 2007, 4:07 PM
Post #39 of 256
(2842 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 14, 2006
Posts: 225
|
shimanilami wrote: IMHO, if you plan to practice falling, make sure your belayer has a Gri-Gri.
Excellent idea. Is this so when you have an unplanned fall, they are almost certain to drop you?
As for anyone suggesting rapping or that he use more standard commands...he was in a gym, read the thread before you post meaningless advice.
There is a 99% chance that the belayer forgot about his victory whipper. He led to the anchors, she was thinking he was clipped, and instead he took the fall. She was unprepared and the rope went buzzing through her hands, as she was never locked off.
|
|
|
|
|
billl7
Feb 12, 2007, 4:26 PM
Post #40 of 256
(2820 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1812
|
gblauer wrote: Dillbag wrote: What type of belay device was it? Just curious... ATC
a) not anticipating the need to aggressively to lock off in this case (obvious but see explanation below); and
b) having the ATC attached to the belay loop without the optimal arrangement of the brake strand.
Sometimes gym routes wander and produce a fair amount of drag. Sometimes there is incredibly little drag. Start getting used to the rope drag, start not locking off so much and ... whamo!
If using the harness's belay loop, the arrangement of the belay loop, ATC, break strand and lead strand can tend to twist if the orientation is not optimal. I've recently changed to the more optimal arrangement and seem to feel a lot more of a bite when catching a fall (yeah, could be placebo).
By optimal arrangement I mean with the lead strand on top and break strand on bottom as things come under load. Seems obvious, but it's easy to miss this if one was originally used to clipping the belay biner through leg and waist which tends to orient things differently. Miss it and there's more twist and so less of a bite.
Just some thoughts. Best wishes to you and your belayer coming up with the most likely cause - nad to your healing!
Bill L
|
|
|
|
|
thespider
Feb 12, 2007, 4:30 PM
Post #41 of 256
(2807 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2006
Posts: 471
|
What does that feel like? Do you have pain in just that area or does it spread out? Just wondering.
|
|
|
|
|
puerto
Feb 12, 2007, 4:34 PM
Post #42 of 256
(2796 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2005
Posts: 229
|
In reply to: Excellent idea. Is this so when you have an unplanned fall, they are almost certain to drop you? As for anyone suggesting rapping or that he use more standard commands...he was in a gym, read the thread before you post meaningless advice. There is a 99% chance that the belayer forgot about his victory whipper. He led to the anchors, she was thinking he was clipped, and instead he took the fall. She was unprepared and the rope went buzzing through her hands, as she was never locked off.
You read the fucking thread, the victim was a woman.
Rapping is not meaningless advice because these breakdown of communication scenarios happen all the time outside, where injuries are likely to be far worse..Fuck the gym..
How exactly is is that a standard command like "take" can't be applied in the gym anyway?
And bravo, you precisely made my point, the belayer "forgot" about the victory whipper because it was a nonstandard thing to do at the anchors (at least obviously for this belayer if she forgot)
|
|
|
|
|
gblauer
Moderator
Feb 12, 2007, 4:38 PM
Post #43 of 256
(2793 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 3, 2002
Posts: 2599
|
"What does that feel like? Do you have pain in just that area or does it spread out? Just wondering. "
It felt like a mushroom cloud exploding across my lower back. Sparks shot down my legs and then things settled. Interestingly, the pain was much lower than my fracture. I have an L2 fracture, but the pain was in my lower back.
My back was very painful (a hot, searing pain) and my chest (left) and belly (lower right) were very painful to the touch. It felt like I broke ribs, although on xray it was not the case.
Now, two days later and two natural healing sessions later, my ribs are much better and my back is sore but very tolerable without pain medication
(This post was edited by gblauer on Feb 15, 2007, 6:42 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
shimanilami
Feb 12, 2007, 4:42 PM
Post #44 of 256
(2790 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 1998
|
silascl wrote: shimanilami wrote: IMHO, if you plan to practice falling, make sure your belayer has a Gri-Gri. Excellent idea. Is this so when you have an unplanned fall, they are almost certain to drop you?
Good observation. Per silascl, one should use a Gri-Gri whenever a fall might occur, whether it's "practice" or "for real".
|
|
|
|
|
thespider
Feb 12, 2007, 4:43 PM
Post #45 of 256
(2788 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2006
Posts: 471
|
Shit man, that sucks. Get well soon! Thanks for the lesson.
|
|
|
|
|
potreroed
Feb 12, 2007, 5:06 PM
Post #46 of 256
(2766 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 30, 2001
Posts: 1362
|
Sorry to hear about this--I guess you won't be coming to Mexico soon after all??
Every time I hear about stuff like this I love my gri-gri even more. We had a situation here in the Potrero recently where a gri-gri saved a life which would not have been the case had the belayer been using an ATC.
|
|
|
|
|
rai
Feb 12, 2007, 5:18 PM
Post #47 of 256
(2748 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 6, 2006
Posts: 15
|
gblauer wrote: On Saturday, 2/10, I lead an easy 5.7 as a warm down. I got to the top of climb, clipped the last bolt, called out to my belayer and let her know that I was done with the climb and that I was going to drop off the wall. She acknowledged me and off I came. Edited: I called down to her, let her know that I was at the top of the climb. I was a foot above my last bolt, so I elected to let go and "drop" off the wall rather than sling the horn. She acknowledged my intentions and said that she was ready for me.
This is where I got confused and found the term "drop off" - I didn't imagine it. And I did read the entire thread.
|
|
|
|
|
moose_droppings
Feb 12, 2007, 5:18 PM
Post #48 of 256
(2748 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3299
|
Dang, thats the shits, hope you get up and about soon. I've got problems with L2, and it takes quite a while to get 100% again, so take it gingerly.
I sure hope you don't go to hard on your belayer, accidents happen, and I'd bet she's being pretty hard on herself already.
|
|
|
|
|
gblauer
Moderator
Feb 12, 2007, 5:22 PM
Post #49 of 256
(2737 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 3, 2002
Posts: 2599
|
moose_droppings wrote: I sure hope you don't go to hard on your belayer, accidents happen, and I'd bet she's being pretty hard on herself already.
She is giving me energy healing sessions everyday. She is a cranio sacral/polarity therapist.
I have seen her everyday since I joined the "30 foot club".
|
|
|
|
|
rai
Feb 12, 2007, 5:24 PM
Post #50 of 256
(2735 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 6, 2006
Posts: 15
|
silascl wrote: As for anyone suggesting rapping or that he use more standard commands...he was in a gym, read the thread before you post meaningless advice.
Are you for real? Since when are standard commands not useful in the gym? Don't many (if not most) people learn in gyms anymore? Shouldn't we instill the proper commands from the beginning...? PS - I teach in a gym, which is why and from where I made the comment - outside, inside ... doesn't matter! Be consistent!
As for the burning of her hand, sounds like she didn't expect so much slack to be out when he "dropped off" the wall. I catch big fellahs on big falls and I've never been burned. I'd say it had more to do with the element of surprise, but since that was apparently not the case in this situation- even though that seems like the obvious scenario... I guess it's a moot point.
|
|
|
|
|
maldaly
Feb 12, 2007, 5:27 PM
Post #51 of 256
(2347 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 31, 2002
Posts: 1190
|
Someone up-thread mentioned a practice which I think is dangerous. That is calling down "I'm in straight" or even worse "I'm off" when you've clipped the anchors and are getting ready to re-thread. Think about this one. There is absolutely no benefit to have the belayer on the ground know that you're clipped in and it opens up lots of possibilities for errors. I've seen bealyers dorp their hands, relax and take the belay off when they clearly shouldn't. Again, I don't see any benefit to this signal and lots of possible problems.
Mal
|
|
|
|
|
jakedatc
Feb 12, 2007, 5:28 PM
Post #52 of 256
(2347 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 11053
|
majid_sabet wrote: Oh My GOD Her hand got burnt by passing rope, how could this be possible ? I guess a pair of leather gloves could help, do not you think SO ?
In reply to: I never thought belaying was important and climbers could get hurt like that but now you opened my eyes to reality.
not to turn this thread into a little fire fight but WTF???
aren't you the accident searching yahoo and supposed expert on search and rescue blah blah.. oh wait you're just a fucking troll
rope burn is super easy to get once the rope starts slipping.. especially with the smaller rope diameters.
In reply to: IMHO, if you plan to practice falling, make sure your belayer has a Gri-Gri.
you should only practice faling with a gri gri? How about you learn to catch a fall.. anytime.. any where.. thats your job as the belayer. should NEVER have to say a damn thing.. what if she'd slipped in the same spot and didnt say anything? If you can tell exactly when you're going to fall every time then you aren't trying hard enough
can we please please PLEASE have kill files back
edit: Mal i agree. "Take!" /wait for tension and "lower" Anything with multiple words and non-standard gets confused, lost in the wind, unheard through a roof.. Simple, direct commands carry over to multiple belayers and situations.
(This post was edited by jakedatc on Feb 12, 2007, 5:40 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
carabiner96
Feb 12, 2007, 5:30 PM
Post #53 of 256
(2342 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 10, 2006
Posts: 12417
|
majid_sabet wrote: Oh My GOD Her hand got burnt by passing rope, how could this be possible ? I guess a pair of leather gloves could help, do not you think SO ?
Majid...this isn't meant to be offensive, but have you ever actually climbed before - or touch a rope before, for that matter?
I've split my palm open catching a fall once. Cut in the middle blisters on the sides. Hurts like hell. I'm good at the getting through life one handedly, but NO handed just sucks.
|
|
|
|
|
silascl
Feb 12, 2007, 5:33 PM
Post #54 of 256
(2338 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 14, 2006
Posts: 225
|
puerto wrote: You read the fucking thread, the victim was a woman. Rapping is not meaningless advice because these breakdown of communication scenarios happen all the time outside, where injuries are likely to be far worse..Fuck the gym.. How exactly is is that a standard command like "take" can't be applied in the gym anyway? And bravo, you precisely made my point, the belayer "forgot" about the victory whipper because it was a nonstandard thing to do at the anchors (at least obviously for this belayer if she forgot)
Nothing in the thread said that the victim was a woman...no way to know that. Apologize for my obviously misogynistic use of He instead of They. 
I'm fine with rapping outdoors but the advice isn't helpful in this case. Next time someone is rapping off multipitch and falls, would you suggest they get lowered instead?
What is standard command for "at the anchors on a 5.7 but taking a fall anyways"? Take? Falling? Jumping? If this person had been belaying the climber all day, wouldn't they know? Or if they hadn't belayed this person before, what were they doing taking an un-announced whipper at the anchors?
Personally I would be quite confused if my partner comfortably led a route and then took a fall while at the anchors. But I would still catch them no problem with my ATC. seems like the belayer forgot somehow. By the way, this could've just as easily happened with a gri-gri. How many would give out slack to clip the anchors, stopping it from autolocking?
|
|
|
|
|
oldsalt
Feb 12, 2007, 5:36 PM
Post #55 of 256
(2332 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 19, 2004
Posts: 911
|
gblauer wrote: Irrespective of what I said or DIDN"T say, it's ALWAYS the belayers responsibility to be attentive enough to catch a fall. If I say "falling", "take" or NOTHING at all, the belayers job is to CATCH the fall, without warning, without verbal exchange, without eye contact. Think about how many times on a multipitch climb you lose sight of your climber while belaying. Does that remove your responsibility as a belayer? NO!
It is tempting to unload on her, and I doubt that I could get back on a rope in this situation myself. My compassion for her comes from a very near accident while I was using the ATC in the gym.
One of my regular group was doing a first lead of a tough route. He was so sketched as he went over the overhang that he skipped the clip and went up to a better stance.
As he made the final move to reach the next bolt up, I slid my hand down the rope to be able to feed him slack in a hurry, because I knew he was being visited by Elvis.
He lunged and missed and I recovered the slack in an instant, but I could not get any more in before he dropped. With estimated distances of 8' of run-out to a last clip 20' above the heavily padded floor, he touched lightly and then lifted back up a little bit. People came running from all around the gym and all I could think about was that my climber had decked, however softly.
All who actually witnessed it, and noticed that I was probably more stressed than my climber, came over to offer congratulations for a great catch. Several had seen the skipped clip and were watching because they realized that something was going down.
He wasn't injured and I can't see how I could have done anything differently, since short roping him would have also been my fault. No one blamed me for the close call, and no one hesitates to take a belay from me, but it still is in the back of my mind.
I really wonder how Gail's belayer feels, because it could too easily have been any of us - if we ever get complacent.
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Feb 12, 2007, 5:37 PM
Post #56 of 256
(2331 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 18043
|
gblauer wrote: Dingus, When I am training indoors, I drill falling for at least 15 minutes of my 3 hour workout. Sometimes I do it for a straight 15 minutes, or other times I do it at the top of routes. Understand, the gym where I climb, the last bolt is at most 4 feet below the horn. I always clip the last bolt and I always take the "victory whip"...
Well, I guess I'd recommend more climbing and less falling.
Anyway, it really sucks that your belayer was incompetent, but it's probably better that you found that out in a somewhat controlled environment--things could have been much worse. Best wishes for a speedy recovery.
As to those who say a gri-gri is the answer--I say BS. Belayer error scenarios are quite independent of belay devices, as can be evidenced by numerous threads on this very site.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
mojomonkey
Feb 12, 2007, 5:44 PM
Post #58 of 256
(2318 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 13, 2006
Posts: 794
|
Sorry to hear it Gail. I guess I showed up at the gym not too long after you left. They wouldn't let anyone lead, maybe an insurance issue if they had two accidents in a day.
Hope you heal quickly.
|
|
|
|
|
m2j1s
Feb 12, 2007, 5:44 PM
Post #59 of 256
(2316 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 7, 2006
Posts: 77
|
One thing I do to try to prevent something like this from occuring is while I am in the gym (over a padded floor :), even when I'm on an easy route, I like to "fall" (without making eye contact or telling them of course) just to make sure my belayer is ready. This way I feel comfortable falling when I am outdoors, and my belayer has experiance catching unexpected falls.
|
|
|
|
|
holdplease2
Feb 12, 2007, 5:47 PM
Post #60 of 256
(2312 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 17, 2002
Posts: 1733
|
Re Malcom's Observation:
I was climbing one day with a friend who was getting more and more into Sport climbing, where you arrive at a pre-set anchor.
One day in J-tree I was doing some final moves trying to make my way to a ledge, but it was kinda tenuous, so I stopped to shake out and get my head together. At this point I heard:
"Are you safe?"
As I had just placed gear and had a good footing, though I was puzzled by the question, I answered "Yes."
Since this was weird, about 30 seconds later I asked "What do you mean, am I safe?" I'm really glad I asked.
Not cool at all. And this was with a super-competant partner that I've climbed with off and on for several years. I just hadn't heard this language before.
I was climbign to a ledge with bolted anchors, and he knew that. Probably why he switched to "sport mode" but who knows?
-Kate.
|
|
|
|
|
carabiner96
Feb 12, 2007, 5:55 PM
Post #61 of 256
(2302 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 10, 2006
Posts: 12417
|
Whats "are you safe?" I've never heard it before
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Feb 12, 2007, 5:58 PM
Post #62 of 256
(2299 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 18043
|
carabiner96 wrote: Whats "are you safe?" I've never heard it before
This normally means "can I take you off-belay?"
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
jakedatc
Feb 12, 2007, 6:02 PM
Post #63 of 256
(2290 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 11053
|
Kate ... good thing they didn't yank you off the wall thinking you were on top. It shouldnt matter what type of climbing you are doing.. climber should tell the belayer what they are doing.. not the belayer asking.. last thing you say on the ground is "Climbing" so.. until further notice.. you're climbing thats all they really need to know. sure it would be nice to tell them you're resting if it's easy to talk but you cant expect that
|
|
|
|
|
carabiner96
Feb 12, 2007, 6:03 PM
Post #64 of 256
(2288 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 10, 2006
Posts: 12417
|
Sounds way more complicated than it should be.
In my world (small and simple as it is):
Belayer: "off belay?"
Climber: "off belay."
Belayer: "belay OFF."
Climber "Ok."
Though usually the belayer would just wait for the climber to initiate the off belay. Depends on how long they're dicking around up top.
|
|
|
|
|
rai
Feb 12, 2007, 6:15 PM
Post #65 of 256
(2264 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 6, 2006
Posts: 15
|
carabiner96 wrote: Sounds way more complicated than it should be. In my world (small and simple as it is): Belayer: "off belay?" Climber: "off belay." Belayer: "belay OFF." Climber "Ok." Though usually the belayer would just wait for the climber to initiate the off belay. Depends on how long they're dicking around up top.
Always - climber starts first in that dialogue. The less than ideal scenarios I made fun of above are examples of communication I see at crags and gyms all the time, but not textbook, which is always initiated by the climber - on the ground and at the anchors....
PS - don't use "off belay" at the anchor if you don't want to be OFF belay - i.e. your belayer can just walk away. I'm sure you're talking trad if you always use off belay. I can see that. But remember, trad and sport have their own systems - which I think can cause a heap of problems ... such as, "off belay" on sport climbs when the climber actually wishes to be lowered.
|
|
|
|
|
holdplease2
Feb 12, 2007, 6:16 PM
Post #66 of 256
(2260 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 17, 2002
Posts: 1733
|
I'd rather not be asked "off belay." If you follow commands, you know. Belayer, you have the ez job. Just sit tight and do it until told to stop. End of story.
Of course, in this case, it sounds like that didn't quite work.
In this case, I go for rule #2: Never un-necessarilly shock load any system if you can keep from it. You just increase the odds of system failure if something isn't quite perfect.
Why the hell jump off of the top of a climb if you don't have to? If I were a gym owner and somebody was doing this all the time, I think I'd ask them to stop.
Sure, its the belayers job to do their job right...but the moment you let gravity take over your climbing and bodies are flying through the air on a regular basis, I think the game changes.
-Kate.
(Obviously I'm climbing more trad than sport (due to location), where falls are dramatically less frequent)
(This post was edited by holdplease2 on Feb 12, 2007, 6:17 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
holdplease2
Feb 12, 2007, 6:23 PM
Post #67 of 256
(2252 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 17, 2002
Posts: 1733
|
Haha, Yeah, Curt, I figured that one out at just the right moment! ;)
When I ask "Are you safe?" It means can I take a pee, or git a sammich or dig for my Red Bull or check my blackberry. I'll still have you on belay, but, well, just don't surprise me. :)
(Kidding...kind of!)
-Kate.
|
|
|
|
|
tradrenn
Feb 12, 2007, 6:42 PM
Post #68 of 256
(2227 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 15, 2005
Posts: 2990
|
Gail
I hope you are getting better and all will be well for you in nearest future.
I know we have a trip planned out to EPC and I was just thinking that if you would like then we could do some easy staff just to get you going. You think about it and let me know when I see you.
All the best to you my friend.
Wojtek
(This post was edited by tradrenn on Feb 12, 2007, 6:43 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
zeke_sf
Feb 12, 2007, 6:43 PM
Post #69 of 256
(2225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 18730
|
curt wrote: As to those who say a gri-gri is the answer--I say BS. Belayer error scenarios are quite independent of belay devices, as can be evidenced by numerous threads on this very site. Curt
Right fucking on, Curt! I knew the direction this thread would tend when the device questions, etc. arose. The OP opened that direction up, so fair enough. I would (and have) gladly taken any form of safe belay. I only expect that belay to be an active and competently applied one. If you can achieve this with a hip belay or gri-gri, I don't give a damn. People belay people, not devices  .
|
|
|
|
|
bennydh
Feb 12, 2007, 6:46 PM
Post #70 of 256
(2220 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 1, 2005
Posts: 368
|
gblauer I hope you heal well and climb soon,
I'd rather not have my belayer ask if Im off Belay unless I prompted it. The climber IMHO should be initating responses from the belayer, unless the belayer notices something a climber needs to know. Anyway, I teach beginners and emphasize all the time how simple it is to miscomunicate and really jeopardize someone's life. In the local Gym you will hear my students running down what I thought was pretty universal;
Climber: On Belay?
Belayer: Belay On!
Climber: Climbing
Belayer: Climb On!
Climber: Tension!
Belayer: Tension On!
Climber: Ready to Lower!
Belayer: Lowering!
Climber: Off Belay?
Belayer: Belay Off?
Obviously there is Falling!, slack! and take instead of Tension. As well as clipping commands... but isn't this a pretty universal thing? Or at least I thought so.
I've had my own sketchy issues with miscommunication. I muttered Slipping amongst a few profanities and belayer thought I said clipping so she fed out some good slack making my whip a little more sketchy. My belayer caught the fall regardless of Jolt..good belayer.
Once again gblauer godspeed on your recovery, and your return to climbing.
Last thing; Why so many grigri haters?
|
|
|
|
|
jakedatc
Feb 12, 2007, 6:48 PM
Post #71 of 256
(2217 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 11053
|
Kate.. from seeing some of gail's posts in the past she's a big proponent of Arno's Warrior Way techniques.. i believe it goes into alot of the mental side of climbing
so for her practice falls are a way to eliminate the irrational fear of "safe" falls.. (clean. well protected etc) So in the gym to skip the anchor and take some practice whips on a bolted overhang/roof is an easy way of getting comfortable in the air. If they are using their own rope and not taking an excessively long fall (not likely since gyms are bolted so close) i wouldnt think they'd have a problem.. and seem to have not since she's been doing this for a while.
if you wanna see irrational go watch folks at the RRG doing back flips off routes after skipping bolts
http://www.victoryproductionstn.com/feature.html
(also heard of them taking long falls at rumney off Predator for fun)
|
|
|
|
|
holdplease2
Feb 12, 2007, 7:10 PM
Post #72 of 256
(2174 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 17, 2002
Posts: 1733
|
Yeah, I've done my practice falls as well. But not on every climb. Here's part of why (not applicable to sport climbing, really):
I just heard from a guy who I really respect and his GF once that "once you let gravity take control of your climb, you're not the one in control any more." I think this was Melissa's (iamthewallress) boyfriend.
She's also the one who taught me that you trust your #1 parachute (your climbing ability and skillz on the rock) and only use your backup chute (your belayer or trusting your life to yarding on pro) if all else fails.
If we thought of a climbing fall as being as serious as a parachute failure, we'd prolly all be 5.9 climbers for life, though! Nobody would ever fall. But that's how it used to be, and in some styles, its still that way. Those people aren't breaking their bodies in gyms or at sport crags like we see here every week it seems, but they probably aren't breaking into the hard-send record books, either.
All due respect to Warrior's way, but in the case of taking a whipper on every climb you do, it just assumes that the system is infallable.
Its not.
Broken bodies and smashed heads prove that all the time.
All that said, I've taken 4 falls at 40+ feet, and one three times that, so who am I to talk? I guess I don't need to practice falling in the gym, eh? I'm better off practice climbing, instead! (Said with a laugh in good humor)
I wing about twice a year on trad leads, usually with gear at my feet. Last time I did this I dropped more than thirty, as my pseudo-belayer thought the thrutching deep in the crack was clipping effort, so she paid out slack, I yarded her 10 feet in the air, and she went for a "soft catch."
All this combined left me shocked, just 15 feet off the deck where before I had been just 15 feet from the anchors!
Next time I'll take falling a little more seriously, even if I think its only going to be a 6 footer.
Of course, tomorrow its sport climbing for me, I bet everyone will laugh at me being timid all day!
-Kate.
|
|
|
|
|
wonderwoman
Moderator
Feb 12, 2007, 7:24 PM
Post #73 of 256
(2164 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 14, 2002
Posts: 4240
|
rai wrote: such as, "off belay" on sport climbs when the climber actually wishes to be lowered.
When does this ever happen? If someone tells me they are off belay - sport or trad - I'm assuming they are 'off belay' and not expecting to be lowered. That's just plain crazy talk, with maybe a little bit of Darwinism thrown in there.
And to Gail - I am really sorry to hear about your accident. Hope you have a speedy recovery!
|
|
|
|
|
maldaly
Feb 12, 2007, 7:35 PM
Post #74 of 256
(2152 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 31, 2002
Posts: 1190
|
wonderwoman,
It's happened twice to friends of mine. Both times it was a total brain fart on their part. They had pre arranged with their belayer that they would rap down so there was no question when they yelled down "Off Belay". Both times, they forgot what they were doing, threaded the rope to lower and leaned back and decked. One broke his pelvis after an 80' fall, the other fell 110', broke every bone in his body, punctured his lung and lost a foot. In both of these cases, the belayers were totally innocent yet neither can sleep at night because of guilt they shouldn't have to carry.
This gets back to my point earlier: get in the habit of holding your own rope as you begin lowering, just to be sure that you're actually being lowered.
Climb Safe,
Mal
|
|
|
|
|
billl7
Feb 12, 2007, 7:41 PM
Post #75 of 256
(2148 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1812
|
holdplease2 wrote: In this case, I go for rule #2: Never un-necessarilly shock load any system if you can keep from it. You just increase the odds of system failure if something isn't quite perfect. Why the hell jump off of the top of a climb if you don't have to? If I were a gym owner and somebody was doing this all the time, I think I'd ask them to stop.
Besides most gyms are intentionally doing this all the time anyway when they do lead belay certifications/checks. Climbing teams supported by gyms also routinely do this to train the members to not be afraid of falling - gives them an extra edge over gumbies like me. And the gym very well ought to have something in place to check for the need for periodic maintainance ... or know that it is not needed.
Bill L
(This post was edited by billl7 on Feb 12, 2007, 7:45 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
jakedatc
Feb 12, 2007, 7:57 PM
Post #76 of 256
(2331 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 11053
|
Agreed Bill. climbing comps that are lead oriented .. especially at the higher national/ international level are climb to failure basically. the routes they put up seem to be almost impossible to onsite so getting the highest hold possible is essential to score well. which leads to my favorite climbing quotes.. "If you're not flying, you're not trying"
The nature of sport climbing leads itself to falling.. you either get used to it or you limit yourself. You generally can't down climb roofs and very difficult moves.. so you either go bolt to bolt and be too hesitant or you push on, try hard and perhaps fall. It's a different mind set than trad climbing..
(i was going to say more i think but DDT thinks it's easier to click 9 buttons to get a new window with the thread in it than scrolling down to see the past page of posts) 
|
|
|
|
|
holdplease2
Feb 12, 2007, 7:58 PM
Post #77 of 256
(2328 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 17, 2002
Posts: 1733
|
Hey Bill:
Yup, I saw the reason, and I know that the gym requires you to do it one time during a belay test.
And prolly everyone has done 5-10 practice falls at one time or another, myself included
I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that Gail opts to do this after every climb. This is what I'm talking about.
Certainly, I don't mean to criticize Gail (Whom I've not met) or anyone else. Just stating my opinion on why I think that (for me) regularly whipping into a system when other options are available might not be the best idea. (...in the event that you've had enough practice falls, whatever that might be.)
Practice falls are great. Gyms are great. Most belayers are great. Wing onto your system hard regularly, and someday, something is not going to be great.
Need proof of this? See thread title.
I'm hoping that you get perfectly well soon, Gail. And please don't think I mean to criticize you, I'm just throwing out a contrary opinion to the "Falling is Super OK" thing that I see around so much.
-Kate.
(This post was edited by holdplease2 on Feb 12, 2007, 8:02 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
climbs4fun
Moderator
Feb 12, 2007, 7:59 PM
Post #78 of 256
(2328 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 18, 2003
Posts: 9530
|
rai wrote: maldaly wrote: Someone up-thread mentioned a practice which I think is dangerous. That is calling down "I'm in straight" or even worse "I'm off" when you've clipped the anchors and are getting ready to re-thread. Think about this one. There is absolutely no benefit to have the belayer on the ground know that you're clipped in and it opens up lots of possibilities for errors. gosh - girls are so logical! 
Um maldaly as in Malcom Daly. So NOT a girl.
(This post was edited by climbs4fun on Feb 12, 2007, 8:07 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
billl7
Feb 12, 2007, 8:21 PM
Post #79 of 256
(2316 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1812
|
holdplease2 wrote: I'm just throwing out a contrary opinion to the "Falling is Super OK" thing that I see around so much.
With respect to Gail's belayer, I believe the belayer knew of her regularly taking a fall above the last bolt. The belayer also needs to accept/recognize the risk and that a mistake is more likely to go punished - or refuse to belay.
By the way, I've only heard very subdued whining from Gail who's back is broke, in very stark contrast with the Who's Fault Is It thread where no one got hurt.
Bill L
|
|
|
|
|
billl7
Feb 12, 2007, 8:40 PM
Post #80 of 256
(2308 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1812
|
jakedatc wrote: The nature of sport climbing leads itself to falling.. you either get used to it or you limit yourself. You generally can't down climb roofs and very difficult moves.. so you either go bolt to bolt and be too hesitant or you push on, try hard and perhaps fall. It's a different mind set than trad climbing..
I'm pretty far off topic now but your last words above are worth repeating: "It's a different mind set than trad climbing."
Bill L
|
|
|
|
|
holdplease2
Feb 12, 2007, 8:53 PM
Post #81 of 256
(2293 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 17, 2002
Posts: 1733
|
Yep agreed. I just hope Gail gets better soon and that we all keep super aware thanks to this...regardless of our preferred climbing style.
I also hope her belayer finds a good way to cope with this. Anyone can make a mistake, we all just hope its never going to be us.
-Kate.
|
|
|
|
|
jakedatc
Feb 12, 2007, 8:57 PM
Post #82 of 256
(2289 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 11053
|
Yea, With the correct padding they can put the top holds pretty far up there.
Belayers at comps should be even more ready for a fall at any time than usual but they should know that. and of course the falls will be unpredictable.. the kids should be going all out and even if they think they can't make the next move they are probably above the bolt anyway so you might as well give it a shot. The nationals video i've seen when they have very high overhanging walls is they give some really soft catches too.
thanks for the repeat.. Clip or whip baby ;)
and yes.. we're not in Kansas anymore Toto
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Feb 12, 2007, 9:02 PM
Post #83 of 256
(2286 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21788
|
I haven't read every word of every post in the thread, so excuse me if this has already been said. There is only one way that this accident could have happened: the belayer did not have the ATC locked off. While this is clearly belayer error, Gail probably could have avoided the accident. She says she made eye contact with the belayer. At that point she should also have looked to see if the belayer had the rope locked off.
The only other plausible scenario I can think of is that the belayer became confused, thought that Gail wanted to be lowered, raised the angle of the rope to lower her just as she jumped off, and then could not regain control of the rope.
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
billcoe_
Feb 12, 2007, 9:18 PM
Post #84 of 256
(2274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4593
|
jt512 wrote: I haven't read every word of every post in the thread, so excuse me if this has already been said. There is only one way that this accident could have happened: the belayer did not have the ATC locked off. While this is clearly belayer error, Gail probably could have avoided the accident. .........
uhh, you mean like the rape victim who could have avoided it..if this or if that?
Belayer is incompetent. Period.
There is NO excuse. Curt already said it and is right on the money.
Glad it wasn't worse Gail, good luck for a speedy - AND FULL -recovery.
Damn - scary story. Glad you were in a gym and not taking a lead fall in a bad spot.
|
|
|
|
|
rai
Feb 12, 2007, 9:52 PM
Post #85 of 256
(2254 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 6, 2006
Posts: 15
|
climbs4fun wrote: rai wrote: maldaly wrote: Someone up-thread mentioned a practice which I think is dangerous. That is calling down "I'm in straight" or even worse "I'm off" when you've clipped the anchors and are getting ready to re-thread. Think about this one. There is absolutely no benefit to have the belayer on the ground know that you're clipped in and it opens up lots of possibilities for errors. gosh - girls are so logical! Um maldaly as in Malcom Daly. So NOT a girl.
I was referring to me - a girl - and logical! 
|
|
|
|
|
zeke_sf
Feb 12, 2007, 9:54 PM
Post #86 of 256
(2254 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 18730
|
jt512 wrote: At that point she should also have looked to see if the belayer had the rope locked off.
Really? I know you are a smart guy and this is possibly a real practice of yours, but, knowing you're smart, I also know I don't have to explain to you the myriad of circumstances this isn't practical or possible. I don't want to get into courtroom theatrics concerning the plausibility of eyewitness testimony either: "Did you or did you not see the ATC properly locked off? I repeat: DID YOU OR DID YOU NOT SEE THE ATC PROPERLY LOCKED OFF?" The belayer fucking catches. End of story.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Feb 12, 2007, 9:56 PM
Post #87 of 256
(2251 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21788
|
billcoe_ wrote: jt512 wrote: I haven't read every word of every post in the thread, so excuse me if this has already been said. There is only one way that this accident could have happened: the belayer did not have the ATC locked off. While this is clearly belayer error, Gail probably could have avoided the accident. ......... uhh, you mean like the rape victim who could have avoided it..if this or if that? Belayer is incompetent. Period. There is NO excuse.
It's not a question of whether there is "an excuse." The fact is that if you value your health, you do everything in your power to ensure your safety. You double check your partner's harness, knot, belay set-up, etc., right? Well, before you take an intentional fall, you should be as certain as possible that your belayer is ready to catch you.
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Feb 12, 2007, 9:59 PM
Post #88 of 256
(2248 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21788
|
zeke_sf wrote: jt512 wrote: At that point she should also have looked to see if the belayer had the rope locked off. Really? I know you are a smart guy and this is possibly a real practice of yours, but, knowing you're smart, I also know I don't have to explain to you the myriad of circumstances this isn't practical or possible.
Huh? What are you babbling about? This accident happened under completely controllable circumstances: it was a planned fall in a gym. Gail made eye contact with her belayer, but, I suspect, just trusted that the belayer had her locked off properly, rather than visually, and verbally, verifying it for herself. Indeed, there are a myriad of circumstances in which such verification isn't possible; however, this wasn't one of them.
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
rai
Feb 12, 2007, 10:00 PM
Post #89 of 256
(2246 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 6, 2006
Posts: 15
|
wonderwoman wrote: rai wrote: such as, "off belay" on sport climbs when the climber actually wishes to be lowered. When does this ever happen? If someone tells me they are off belay - sport or trad - I'm assuming they are 'off belay' and not expecting to be lowered. That's just plain crazy talk, with maybe a little bit of Darwinism thrown in there.
Hey wonderwoman - sorry I lost you in my cryptic semanitcs. Here's what I wrote above:
But remember, trad and sport have their own systems - which I think can cause a heap of problems ... such as, "off belay" on sport climbs when the climber actually wishes to be lowered.
I should have been more clear, but I thought my previous posts about commands would have shown my stance on the "off belay" command (which you clearly didn't read)... Off Belay to signify I wish to be lowered fits in with the "heap of problems" I was referring to ... Off belay is standard on most trad climbs as the climber says off belay to pull up rope and put the second on belay... Off belay means take me off belay. Wonderwoman - I was saying this ... not disagreeing with it.... check my other posts.... 
|
|
|
|
|
zeke_sf
Feb 12, 2007, 10:08 PM
Post #90 of 256
(2237 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 18730
|
jt512 wrote: zeke_sf wrote: jt512 wrote: At that point she should also have looked to see if the belayer had the rope locked off. Really? I know you are a smart guy and this is possibly a real practice of yours, but, knowing you're smart, I also know I don't have to explain to you the myriad of circumstances this isn't practical or possible. Huh? What are you babbling about? This accident happened under completely controllable circumstances: it was a planned fall in a gym. Gail made eye contact with her belayer, but, I suspect, just trusted that the belayer had her locked off properly, rather than visually, and verbally, verifying it for herself. Indeed, there are a myriad of circumstances in which such verification isn't possible; however, this wasn't one of them. Jay
This is why I said you a smart guy, Jay . Because you probably would visually inspect given the chance. Obviously, not everybody does. How far does the safety list go though? Read the rest of the thread because there are actually some good points (especially holdplease2).
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Feb 12, 2007, 10:12 PM
Post #91 of 256
(2233 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21788
|
zeke_sf wrote: jt512 wrote: zeke_sf wrote: jt512 wrote: At that point she should also have looked to see if the belayer had the rope locked off. Really? I know you are a smart guy and this is possibly a real practice of yours, but, knowing you're smart, I also know I don't have to explain to you the myriad of circumstances this isn't practical or possible. Huh? What are you babbling about? This accident happened under completely controllable circumstances: it was a planned fall in a gym. Gail made eye contact with her belayer, but, I suspect, just trusted that the belayer had her locked off properly, rather than visually, and verbally, verifying it for herself. Indeed, there are a myriad of circumstances in which such verification isn't possible; however, this wasn't one of them. Jay This is why I said you a smart guy, Jay . Because you probably would visually inspect given the chance. Obviously, not everybody does. How far does the safety list go though? Read the rest of the thread because there are actually some good points (especially holdplease2).
I actually disagree philosophically with much of what holdplease2 has posted in this thread. Way too trad, Kate!
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
Feb 12, 2007, 10:14 PM
Post #92 of 256
(2230 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
a nearly identical situation happened to my best friend about a year ago- a 24' fall in the gym, two fractures, and a year later-- he's mostly okay, although he's 3/4" shorter these days. its messed up and it still upsets me to no end seeing poor belaying in the gym. his partner didnt even have their hand on the rope (on an ATC belay) when he fell....
i have very few belayers these days- maybe 4 or 5 that i trust for lead belaying...
i'm sorry you've been injured- take good care of it to be sure- a little more time getting better means alot more days out on the rock!
|
|
|
|
|
zeke_sf
Feb 12, 2007, 10:21 PM
Post #93 of 256
(2224 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 18730
|
jt512 wrote: I actually disagree philosophically with much of what holdplease2 has posted in this thread. Way too trad, Kate! Jay
Yeah, I actually differ in thinking from her, but I thought she stated her points really well!
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Feb 12, 2007, 10:22 PM
Post #94 of 256
(2220 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21788
|
zeke_sf wrote: jt512 wrote: I actually disagree philosophically with much of what holdplease2 has posted in this thread. Way too trad, Kate! Jay Yeah, I actually differ in thinking from her, but I thought she stated her points really well!
She is one articulate motherfucker, that's for sure.
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
whoa
Feb 12, 2007, 11:28 PM
Post #95 of 256
(2186 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 19, 2005
Posts: 193
|
jt512 wrote: zeke_sf wrote: jt512 wrote: I actually disagree philosophically with much of what holdplease2 has posted in this thread. Way too trad, Kate! Jay Yeah, I actually differ in thinking from her, but I thought she stated her points really well! She is one articulate motherfucker, that's for sure. Jay
And clean.
|
|
|
|
|
tisar
Feb 13, 2007, 2:50 AM
Post #96 of 256
(2163 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2004
Posts: 2576
|
Hey Gail, hope you are well soon and your lead head wore a helmet that day.
In following what Jay said:
I caught a (foreseeable) 20 footer last year of a 160 pound guy with an ATC XP in high friction mode. I think I had maybe a foot of rope slippage which caused light burn marks in my hand, but nothing that needed 'healing' (still I wear belay gloves now when climbing outside).
So if your belayer suffered more severe harm than that, the ATC was clearly not locked off - though she still must have had a grip on the rope.
That makes me wonder: Was she belaying palm up or palm down? I just cannot imagine how a palm down belayer can 'lose control' over the rope that way...
Fast healing!
Daniel
|
|
|
|
|
redpoint73
Feb 13, 2007, 5:57 AM
Post #97 of 256
(2120 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 1717
|
the_climber wrote: redpoint73 wrote: My guess is she lets the rope slide through her brake hand in order to lower you, and let it zip through her hand too fast. Once its starts to go, you cannot stop it. When I have taught beginners, I will show them to lower with both hands on the rope, and hand-over-hand the rope to feed it. That way, you always have a secure grip on the rope with at least one hand, as opposed to just letting it slide through your palm. Its not as fast, but it is safer. Oh, and just to be clear, I'm not so much giving this advice to the OP, but more as just a tip for the more novice viewers of this forum. On that note I would have to disagree with you on the hand over hand thing. It encourages letting go with the break hand... despite having another hand on the rope. I would recomend to the novice to use both hands on the rope, but to lower as normal. But this is off topic and best for a separate discussion.
I've had time to think about this, and in the meantime, the thread has doubled in replies! So this post is probably a bit irrelevant, but here are my thoughts anyway.
When using an ATC, "hand-over-hand" is an incorrect description of how I lower. I've been mostly sport climbing, and w. a Grigri for some time now. And its been years since I taught any gym classes. So thats the reason for the poor description.
When I lower w. an ATC, I use both hands on the brake side of the rope and (right hand as primary brake hand) use my left hand to tightly grip the rope as I reposition my right hand, similar to the "two-hands down" belay method popularly taught in gyms. So my brake hand is never taken off the rope, anymore than when belaying (relaxing the grip, but not actually taking the hand off).
Now I don't do this 100% of the time, and most of us let the rope slide through our hands to some degree, perhaps out of complacency. But I tend to be much more careful about lowering if there is a big weight difference between me and the climber.
My main point is that I commonly see the belayer just letting the rope zip/slide through one hand, while doing nothing with the other. Feeding the rope slowly with both hands can help avoid lowering accidents.
|
|
|
|
|
granite_grrl
Feb 13, 2007, 6:04 AM
Post #98 of 256
(2113 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: 14048
|
gblauer wrote: I have seen her everyday since I joined the "30 foot club".
There's a club? Too bad the initiation process sucks so much!
Reading through this thread I thought of a couple of things. First, people are blaming the belayer, totally her fault obviously. Well, maybe not, she had caught Gail's falls before, who's to say that your own belayer won't flake out and drop you next time. Pick with care, but things happen when you least expect it. And I suspect that her belayer deserves less crap than what every one is giving her.
It also seems that people are critical about Gail taking practice falls. Its not that strange a practice and she shouldn't be chastised for choosing to take a fall.
As to the terminology of using "safe", when I use it with my husband it means I can tie him off but not to take him off belay yet. We only take each other off belay when we say "off belay". Make sure you and your partners understand each other's commands before you leave the ground.
Gail - I know you'll have problems making your trip to Mexico, but I hope it doesn't put too much else on hold. Try to look at the silver lining. I was planning on quitting my job and moving out west just before my accident. We're now sticking around here for a job that will give me modified work and to see my doctors. But I've got a good job, I have my friends in the area, and this allowed us to buy a house which we wouldn't have been able to afford if we had moved out west. Make the best out of a crappy situation.
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Feb 13, 2007, 6:15 AM
Post #99 of 256
(2095 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 9676
|
Hi Gail,
Hope you have a full and speedy recovery!
You mentioned that you see your belayer every day. Tell me, does she have any burns on her non-brake hand or fingers?
Reason I ask: There is a fairly common belay practice with a built in failure method. It was the way I learned to belay with an ATC, and I continued to do so until instructed to do otherwise by a guide, a year or so later. I had a hard time believing the guide that there was a problem with that my method, because *so* many people used it (and still do). So I looked around. Within a year, I had seen *two* people get dropped, both with that belay method, and both from exactly the reason described by the guide.
Here's the specific method, and the specific fault:
Palm up, pinch and slide, where the non-brake hand pinches both ropes.
Using this method, there is a moment when the belayer takes in rope, pulling it up parallel with the "live" strand. Next, in order to be able to slide the brake hand back down the rope, the belayer pinches both the brake strand and the live strand with the non-brake hand (typically left hand). If, at exactly that moment, the climber falls, both the belayer's hands grasp hard on the rope. Problem is, the belayer's left hand is pinching both ropes, and keeping the brake strand up too high, so the brake hand can't lock off. At this point, the belayer's hands are burned, he loses control, and no-one understands what went wrong.
I won't try to be prescriptive, but there are many solutions to this belaying problem, the simplest of which is to never pinch both ropes with one hand while they're parallel.
Please note, if you're someone who's been belaying for 10 years with this method and thinks this can't happen to you - you're probably right! In my experience, people who make it past five years or so with this method seem to have sufficiently trained themselves to *let go* with the left hand when the climber falls, if it happens at that point in the belay method. This is highly anti-intuitive, since most of the time the left hand on the live strand helps catch a fall. There's just that one split second where the left must know *not* to do what it usually does.
GO
|
|
|
|
|
tisar
Feb 13, 2007, 6:43 AM
Post #100 of 256
(2080 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2004
Posts: 2576
|
cracklover wrote: [..] Here's the specific method, and the specific fault: Palm up, pinch and slide, where the non-brake hand pinches both ropes. [..]
This is exactly what I had in mind when I asked. I've seen this method once or twice done by American climbers (never seen a European belay palm up with an ATC and, to be honest, am glad about that). I always suspected it to be less-than-perfect to dangerous in the very moment of "slide".
That said, I'm sure there are people out there who are capable of belaying palm up perfectly safe. It just adds another failure mode to the game since it doesn't support the locked off position as palm down does.
- Daniel
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Feb 13, 2007, 7:19 AM
Post #101 of 256
(2364 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 9676
|
By the way, Gail, yours would be a perfect scenario for this to happen, since the belayer might well be taking in just as you were dropping off.
Cheers,
GO
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
Feb 13, 2007, 10:25 AM
Post #102 of 256
(2298 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
tisar wrote: cracklover wrote: [..] Here's the specific method, and the specific fault: Palm up, pinch and slide, where the non-brake hand pinches both ropes. [..] This is exactly what I had in mind when I asked. I've seen this method once or twice done by American climbers (never seen a European belay palm up with an ATC and, to be honest, am glad about that). I always suspected it to be less-than-perfect to dangerous in the very moment of "slide". That said, I'm sure there are people out there who are capable of belaying palm up perfectly safe. It just adds another failure mode to the game since it doesn't support the locked off position as palm down does. - Daniel
i saw some kids using this method last night at the gym, i was on my way over to correct them when the leader came off at the crux and hit the ground. it was a short fall- maybe 8-10' or so and the leader wasn't hurt, but everyone just assumed the reason he hit the ground was because he was heavier than his belayer (which wasnt true- there was maybe 10lbs in difference, 15 at the most).
i corrected them, they ignored me...what are you going to do?
anyway, get better soon, gail!
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Feb 13, 2007, 10:31 AM
Post #103 of 256
(2295 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 18043
|
granite_grrl wrote: Reading through this thread I thought of a couple of things. First, people are blaming the belayer, totally her fault obviously. Well, maybe not, she had caught Gail's falls before, who's to say that your own belayer won't flake out and drop you next time. Pick with care, but things happen when you least expect it. And I suspect that her belayer deserves less crap than what every one is giving her.
Less crap? Perhaps--and I'm sure she feels terrible about what happened. Still, this accident can be attributed 100% to a terrible and preventable fuck-up on the belayer's part. Trying to sugar coat or dance around that fact is quite nonsensical and serves no useful purpose.
granite_grrl wrote: It also seems that people are critical about Gail taking practice falls. Its not that strange a practice and she shouldn't be chastised for choosing to take a fall.
Except, of course, that she wouldn't have the broken back and all....
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
gblauer
Moderator
Feb 13, 2007, 10:45 AM
Post #104 of 256
(2274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 3, 2002
Posts: 2599
|
curt wrote: Except, of course, that she wouldn't have the broken back and all....
Curt, I am not sure that this is true. I was 1 foot above my last bolt, the horn on that particular climb is really out of the way. No one slings the horn on that climb when they lead it. Whether I take the victory whip or not, a belayer should always catch the climber.
Irrespective of my training drills/practices, I am doing really well, I am in minimal pain (my ribs hurt more than my back) and will be back training soonest.
Seriously the most important lessons I learned were:
1) It can happen to anyone (even if you are the world's greatest climber, your belayer can fail you)
2) Cull the herd; only let those that you know, trust and have the experience to put you on belay.
Thank you all (well, most of you) for you kind words of encouragement and well wishes.
Gail
(This post was edited by gblauer on Feb 13, 2007, 10:46 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
the_climber
Feb 13, 2007, 10:47 AM
Post #105 of 256
(2268 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 8, 2003
Posts: 6142
|
OK... Hold the phone here!
Umm, Disclaimer: This is a Rant, this is not to assign blame to Belayer and climber involved here... just some points. uuhh, Well contributing factor apply here I guess, but other stuff is the in gerneral catigory. Oh, and have fun reading if you're ADD or ADHD...
I've been thinking about this a bit... oh, and some of my thoughs on them in general... might not all aply to this accident, but there seems to be a trand of climbers who are still on belay CRATERING into the ground.
Two main contributing fators (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong):
1) Improper use of standardized terminology. And many on here seem to think that there are different meanings to the same term depending on whether you are sport climbing, trad climbing, whatever climbing. THERE IS NOT. CLIMBING COMMANDS AND FOR ALL CLIMBING
-examples of terms:
-On Belay
-Belay On
-Climbing
-Climb On
-Watch ME
-Tension or Take
-Got, or Got you
-Falling
-Rock, Ice...........Take, Got, Lower or Ready to Lower, Lowering
or,
-Secure <-- Does not mean Off Belay!
-Off Belay
-Belay Off
-That's Me
-On Belay/Belay On
-Climbing
-Climb On
-Say Again or Repeat <----- Folks, this is what you say when you are unsure
A few things here. I have listed them in the order I have to try and outline a climb itself, both Multi pitch and single pitch if you look at it. Some things I prefer such as 'Lower' over 'Ready to Lower' as you can more easily tell what they are saying by the syllables. There are important things to note... Secure should not be a replacement for off belay, neither should Safe, or the appalling use of "OK". Later time I checked Secure saound and reads NOTHING like Off Belay. And WTF, what the bloody sheep, and what in DOG's green Earth does OK mean as far as climding is concerned? I have seen to many accidents and near accidents due to the poor use of terminology <----- read this as POOR COMMUNICATION! This applies to both the Gym and outdoor climbing! The same terms you use for Trad ARE THE SAME YOU USE FOR SPORT! There are many many more terms these are simple what I would consider the 15 or so off the top of my head essentials. Learn them! Learn to Communicate in a manner that leaves no room for doubt as to what was said/asked.
I've climbed with People from all over the world... France, Germany, Switzerland, Britt's, Bask, Yank's, Brazilians, Japan, Spain, Italy, Finland, and a few others I can’t think of right now... With the use of standardized terms and the understanding of what they mean I have never had a problem climbing with experienced climbers regardless of language barriers to the extent of I can hardly pronounce your name and can't have a casual conversation beyond improvised sign language. There have been no Holy Mother of Fuck moments with experienced climbers due to KNOWING WHAT TERMS SUCH AS THE ABOVE MEAN!
2) Inattention to the belaying/Improper belaying
People! Learn to belay not just hold the rope! Don't get slack or laxadaisy about it! Your friend on the other end is TRUSTING you. In the past 13 years or so I have seen changes to belaying standards. Changes such as instead of holding your break hand higher while sliding it back down the rope, to holding it below the level of the belay device while you slide it up to the device... this puts your break hand in a locked off position more often than not. I have seen auto-laziness... oh sorry I mean auto-locking devices break onto the market and become very common. (Mal, your cinch rocks, but I'm just not a fan of auto-laziness belay devices... but your cinch does Rock) The biggest problem with these devices is they have encouraged lazy belaying. There are proper and Improper ways to use these folks!
Now, ATC's and the like... every beginner should learn on these! Really. Everyone should not only learn to catch falls, lower, .... they should never stop anticipation the potential for a fall. I'm around 200lbs and have had a 110lbs partner catch me on some 30+ footers in my sport climbing days and have never been dropped is such a case. Been dropped be quite a few GriGri users while being lowered though.
On top of seeing some improvement to the suggested how to belay, I have seen some VERY VERY scary trends in how people are teaching to belay at gyms. Hand over have to take in slack comes to mind…. Golden rule folks, NEVER TAKE YOU BREAK HAND OFF THE ROPE….. The Golden of the Golden rule: DON’T TEACH A NOOB TO TAKE THEIR BREAK HAND OFF THE ROPE! Another would be Palm up instead of palm down with respect to the break hand… people you’re not hip belaying here! Get those palms down, you can hold much greater forces that way.
The Bottom line is this:
Learn to belay PROPERLY, and don’t forget.
Never stop anticipating the potential for a fall! NEVER!
Always be ready
Always be ready
ALWAYS BE READY for the unexpected
Never take your break hand off the Rope
NEVER THAKE YOUR BREAK HAND OFF THE ROPE!
Ok, End Rant, Discuss.
|
|
|
|
|
the_climber
Feb 13, 2007, 10:50 AM
Post #106 of 256
(2263 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 8, 2003
Posts: 6142
|
Gail, I'm glad to hear you are doing ok, and are taking this rather well. I was lucky to learn the same trust issues without getting injured, just dropped. I wish you a speedy recovery.
-Brenden
|
|
|
|
|
granite_grrl
Feb 13, 2007, 10:50 AM
Post #107 of 256
(2262 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: 14048
|
curt wrote: granite_grrl wrote: Reading through this thread I thought of a couple of things. First, people are blaming the belayer, totally her fault obviously. Well, maybe not, she had caught Gail's falls before, who's to say that your own belayer won't flake out and drop you next time. Pick with care, but things happen when you least expect it. And I suspect that her belayer deserves less crap than what every one is giving her. Less crap? Perhaps--and I'm sure she feels terrible about what happened. Still, this accident can be attributed 100% to a terrible and preventable fuck-up on the belayer's part. Trying to sugar coat or dance around that fact is quite nonsensical and serves no useful purpose.
My problem is that people are probobly thinking that their belayer will never drop them. She did something wrong that allowed Gail to be dropped, I just don't want people to sit there and think that their belayers will never do anything wrong like that.
In reply to: granite_grrl wrote: It also seems that people are critical about Gail taking practice falls. Its not that strange a practice and she shouldn't be chastised for choosing to take a fall. Except, of course, that she wouldn't have the broken back and all.... Curt
Maybe we should all just stop climbing completley. Maybe next time I hear of a boulderer who fell on their pad wrong a twisted an ankle I should tell them they shouldn't have been bouldering in the first place, or that they should never boulder above 3 feet.
I guess I feel people are trying to find reasons why something like this will never happen to them (they have better belayers, never take falls, etc). It can. If you're willing to accept that then keep on climbing, if you can't then maybe you shouldn't be climbing. Life is fragile, but I still think we should enjoy it.
I will also admit that accidents that happen that should never have happened are a touchy subject for me.
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Feb 13, 2007, 11:06 AM
Post #108 of 256
(2246 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 18043
|
granite_grrl wrote: ...I guess I feel people are trying to find reasons why something like this will never happen to them (they have better belayers, never take falls, etc). It can. If you're willing to accept that then keep on climbing, if you can't then maybe you shouldn't be climbing. Life is fragile, but I still think we should enjoy it. I will also admit that accidents that happen that should never have happened are a touchy subject for me.
I recall reading about your own accident--and I hope you are also feeling better these days.
I guess the problem I'm having here is with the use of the term "accident" as it has been applied here. I mean, of course it was an "accident" in the sense that dropping the climber was not an intentional act of the belayer. However, it is equally undeniable that either belayer negligence or incompetence (or both) ultimately led to this unfortunate outcome.
You make it sound as though a belay is some sort of objective danger, like avalanches, rockfall or other similar risks that are beyond our control as climbers--and that simply isn't the case. A good belayer would never make the mistake that happened in this case--period.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
tomcat
Feb 13, 2007, 11:08 AM
Post #109 of 256
(2241 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 15, 2006
Posts: 324
|
Ummmm,"Victory Whip" on a 5.7? Rock Warriors Way to lead 5.7? I can't think of a single 5.7 I'd just jump off. 15 minutes a session falling?How many miles is that?I think you got hurt shooting a mouse with an elephant gun,sorry.
If you are leading 5.7's in a gym,you should not be practicing falling.
Palms up,palms down?You bend the f**king thing back around and lock it off.
|
|
|
|
|
gblauer
Moderator
Feb 13, 2007, 11:17 AM
Post #110 of 256
(2224 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 3, 2002
Posts: 2599
|
tomcat wrote: Ummmm,"Victory Whip" on a 5.7? Rock Warriors Way to lead 5.7? I can't think of a single 5.7 I'd just jump off. 15 minutes a session falling?How many miles is that?I think you got hurt shooting a mouse with an elephant gun,sorry. .
I regularly lead 10s/11s in my gym.
|
|
|
|
|
shimanilami
Feb 13, 2007, 11:21 AM
Post #111 of 256
(2220 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 1998
|
jakedatc wrote: In reply to: IMHO, if you plan to practice falling, make sure your belayer has a Gri-Gri. your humble opinion is what makes for lazy ass belayers who think they don't have to lock off every time and are ready for a fall at any time. .
Well, it's brilliant opinions like yours that end up getting people dropped while "practice falling". If the belayer had used a Gri-Gri, the leader would not have been dropped. Why? Because the "default" on the Gri-Gri is to autolock. The default for an ATC, in contrast, is "dropped leader".
I don't know how anyone in their right mind can argue that a Gri-Gri isn't safer than an ATC. If you are one of those who are in this camp, please enlighten me.
|
|
|
|
|
the_climber
Feb 13, 2007, 11:30 AM
Post #112 of 256
(2206 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 8, 2003
Posts: 6142
|
shimanilami wrote: jakedatc wrote: In reply to: IMHO, if you plan to practice falling, make sure your belayer has a Gri-Gri. your humble opinion is what makes for lazy ass belayers who think they don't have to lock off every time and are ready for a fall at any time. . Well, it's brilliant opinions like yours that end up getting people dropped while "practice falling". If the belayer had used a Gri-Gri, the leader would not have been dropped. Why? Because the "default" on the Gri-Gri is to autolock. The default for an ATC, in contrast, is "dropped leader". I don't know how anyone in their right mind can argue that a Gri-Gri isn't safer than an ATC. If you are one of those who are in this camp, please enlighten me.
^ this is why I never never never teach noob's with anything but an ATC (or the like). If I'm teaching you to climb, you don't learn the GriGri till you damn well a good belayer, and by that point you'll yealize the risk of that type of device (user error) and KNOW that there is a Correct and Incorrect way to you said device.
|
|
|
|
|
shimanilami
Feb 13, 2007, 11:37 AM
Post #113 of 256
(2188 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 1998
|
^^^ If you are suggesting that I'm a nOOb, then you are sorely mistaken.
Following your logic, why would start with "advanced" technology of an ATC? Why not start with a hip belay, if you really want to teach the fundamentals of belaying?
And you didn't answer my question.
|
|
|
|
|
artm
Feb 13, 2007, 11:38 AM
Post #114 of 256
(2186 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 22, 2001
Posts: 17990
|
jt512 wrote: I actually disagree philosophically with much of what holdplease2 has posted in this thread. Way too trad, Kate! Jay
holdplease2 wrote: She's also the one who taught me that you trust your #1 parachute (your climbing ability and skillz on the rock) and only use your backup chute (your belayer or trusting your life to yarding on pro) if all else fails.
But then again that may be why I've taken so many whippers (or maybe I just suck at climbing).
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Feb 13, 2007, 11:42 AM
Post #115 of 256
(2180 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 18043
|
shimanilami wrote: Well, it's brilliant opinions like yours that end up getting people dropped while "practice falling". If the belayer had used a Gri-Gri, the leader would not have been dropped. Why? Because the "default" on the Gri-Gri is to autolock. The default for an ATC, in contrast, is "dropped leader".
What if the rope was threaded backwards through the gri-gri? Are you so certain of your opinion in that scenario?
shimanilami wrote: I don't know how anyone in their right mind can argue that a Gri-Gri isn't safer than an ATC. If you are one of those who are in this camp, please enlighten me.
If the question is this:
"Which belay device is more likely to catch a falling climber when the belayer's hands are not on the belay device, the ATC or the gri-gri?"
...then the gri-gri wins--assuming, of course, that the gri-gri was not threaded backwards as in my comment above.
However, if the question is:
"Which is the more foolproof belay device, the ATC or the gri-gri?"
...then the answer is much less clear--because there are certainly multiple ways to drop a climber while belaying with a gri-gri, including threading the rope the wrong way through it, holding the lever in the "open" position when a climber falls, etc.
If you are focusing on the belay device here, you are totally missing one of the most important lessons to be learned from this thread.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
the_climber
Feb 13, 2007, 11:43 AM
Post #116 of 256
(2177 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 8, 2003
Posts: 6142
|
shimanilami wrote: ^^^ If you are suggesting that I'm a nOOb, then you are sorely mistaken. Following your logic, why would start with "advanced" technology of an ATC? Why not start with a hip belay, if you really want to teach the fundamentals of belaying? And you didn't answer my question.
No, not sugesting you're a noob or anything. Sorry you thought that... didn't even think it could be taken that way.
Just saying EVERYONGE should lean the dynemics, the ins and outs and the PROPER way to belay and pay attention belaying, and understant the short-comings of Auto-lazyness... I mean auto-locking belay devices.
And why not stat with a hip belay.... anyone who does any alpine SHOULD know how to do one and where they are and are not appropiet! But, bottom line, Learn to belay right and ALWAY expect that a fall can happen at anypoint.
|
|
|
|
|
granite_grrl
Feb 13, 2007, 11:45 AM
Post #117 of 256
(2170 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: 14048
|
curt wrote: granite_grrl wrote: ...I guess I feel people are trying to find reasons why something like this will never happen to them (they have better belayers, never take falls, etc). It can. If you're willing to accept that then keep on climbing, if you can't then maybe you shouldn't be climbing. Life is fragile, but I still think we should enjoy it. I will also admit that accidents that happen that should never have happened are a touchy subject for me. I recall reading about your own accident--and I hope you are also feeling better these days. I guess the problem I'm having here is with the use of the term "accident" as it has been applied here. I mean, of course it was an "accident" in the sense that dropping the climber was not an intentional act of the belayer. However, it is equally undeniable that either belayer negligence or incompetence (or both) ultimately led to this unfortunate outcome. You make it sound as though a belay is some sort of objective danger, like avalanches, rockfall or other similar risks that are beyond our control as climbers--and that simply isn't the case. A good belayer would never make the mistake that happened in this case--period. Curt
I think what I really want is people to accept the dangers in this sport, take responsability. I have stopped thinking in terms of never, because I should never have fallen off a 5.5 section of a climb.
It is very very very unlikely that a good belayer will drop you. People should minamize the risk of climbing when ever possible, but that doesn't always happen. Sometimes we choose a belayer that we've only climbed with a few times before (even if they caught our falls in the past). Sometimes we run it out on easy ground over ledges while leading. Climbers take these small risks all the time.
And then, when you least expect it........WAM!!!
Thank you for your concern Curt, I am doing much much better, and I have even started climbing again in the last month. Sorry that I seem to be making it my personal crusaide to try to convince other climbers that accidents are always possible, but I'm sure you can understand that it is a personal subject.
|
|
|
|
|
artm
Feb 13, 2007, 11:46 AM
Post #118 of 256
(2166 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 22, 2001
Posts: 17990
|
shimanilami wrote: jakedatc wrote: In reply to: IMHO, if you plan to practice falling, make sure your belayer has a Gri-Gri. your humble opinion is what makes for lazy ass belayers who think they don't have to lock off every time and are ready for a fall at any time. . Well, it's brilliant opinions like yours that end up getting people dropped while "practice falling". If the belayer had used a Gri-Gri, the leader would not have been dropped. Why? Because the "default" on the Gri-Gri is to autolock. The default for an ATC, in contrast, is "dropped leader". I don't know how anyone in their right mind can argue that a Gri-Gri isn't safer than an ATC. If you are one of those who are in this camp, please enlighten me.
(This post was edited by artm on Feb 13, 2007, 12:01 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
redpoint73
Feb 13, 2007, 11:50 AM
Post #119 of 256
(2154 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 20, 2002
Posts: 1717
|
artm wrote: shimanilami wrote: jakedatc wrote: In reply to: IMHO, if you plan to practice falling, make sure your belayer has a Gri-Gri. your humble opinion is what makes for lazy ass belayers who think they don't have to lock off every time and are ready for a fall at any time. . Well, it's brilliant opinions like yours that end up getting people dropped while "practice falling". If the belayer had used a Gri-Gri, the leader would not have been dropped. Why? Because the "default" on the Gri-Gri is to autolock. The default for an ATC, in contrast, is "dropped leader". I don't know how anyone in their right mind can argue that a Gri-Gri isn't safer than an ATC. If you are one of those who are in this camp, please enlighten me. It Depends. A Gri-Gri in the hands of someone who's been taught advanced belaying skills with the device in question is safer. However an untrained beginner who thinks the Gri-Gri will automatically lock off every time is an accident waiting to happen. There have been many instances where people have been dropped by belayers using Gri-Gri's. With certain skinny ropes the device in question still needs the belayers hand on the brake side of the rope.
With ANY rope, the belayers hand should be on the brake side of the rope when using a Grigri. Taking your brake hand off is improper use of the device.
People are saying that the Grigri makes people lazy b/c they learn they don't have to lock-off. This is improper use of the device. The autolock is a backup, you still need to have your brake hand on, and you still need to lock off. Don't blame the device if people cannot use it right. Thats why the Grigri is not a beginner tool. You still need to know how to belay, PLUS there are added complexities.
|
|
|
|
|
artm
Feb 13, 2007, 11:52 AM
Post #120 of 256
(2150 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 22, 2001
Posts: 17990
|
curt wrote: shimanilami wrote: Well, it's brilliant opinions like yours that end up getting people dropped while "practice falling". If the belayer had used a Gri-Gri, the leader would not have been dropped. Why? Because the "default" on the Gri-Gri is to autolock. The default for an ATC, in contrast, is "dropped leader". What if the rope was threaded backwards through the gri-gri? Are you so certain of your opinion in that scenario? shimanilami wrote: I don't know how anyone in their right mind can argue that a Gri-Gri isn't safer than an ATC. If you are one of those who are in this camp, please enlighten me. If the question is this: "Which belay device is more likely to catch a falling climber when the belayer's hands are not on the belay device, the ATC or the gri-gri?" ...then the gri-gri wins--assuming, of course, that the gri-gri was not threaded backwards as in my comment above. However, if the question is: "Which is the more foolproof belay device, the ATC or the gri-gri?" ...then the answer is much less clear--because there are certainly multiple ways to drop a climber while belaying with a gri-gri, including threading the rope the wrong way through it, holding the lever in the "open" position when a climber falls, etc. If you are focusing on the belay device here, you are totally missing one of the most important lessons to be learned from this thread. Curt
|
|
|
|
|
shimanilami
Feb 13, 2007, 11:53 AM
Post #121 of 256
(2147 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 1998
|
So far, I have been able to glean the following risk scenarios with a Gri-Gri
a. Belayer threads rope backwards
b. Belayer has lever open when leader falls
c. Belayer can't feed rope out fast enough
In other words, if the belayer is a fucking 'tard ...
I will not dispute that proper technique is the key to belaying safely, but I'll offer that there is also a better "mouse trap" than an ATC or hip belay.
And if I'm on the sharp end of the rope, I want my belayer to have both.
|
|
|
|
|
taino
Feb 13, 2007, 11:53 AM
Post #122 of 256
(2147 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 5371
|
shimanilami wrote: I don't know how anyone in their right mind can argue that a Gri-Gri isn't safer than an ATC. If you are one of those who are in this camp, please enlighten me.
I have personally been full-on dropped by belayers using a gri-gri. Three times. Each time in a gym, with a (fortunately) padded floor. Each time, it was operator error. Only once did I not hit the floor - and that guy jammed his hand into the gri-gri to make it stop (talk about doing what it took). Each time, the belayer opened the gate with the lever before I sat back into the harness; my weight ripped the rope from their hand, and they froze with the gate still open. Even the guy who sacrificed his skin could have just let go of the gate, and it "should" have caught me.
I have never, ever been dropped by anyone using an ATC, even on lead falls.
So, is an ATC/tube device safer than a gri-gri? Yes... and no.
The ATC makes it very, very clear that it is truly the belayer who is responsible for everything. It's not going to lock the rope, it's not going to back up bad technique... there's no net. Someone learning to belay with an ATC is more cognizant of the fact that they are "it". The ATC is also more flexible than a gri-gri (you can belay with two ropes, and rappel with two ropes), and obviously lighter. That said, there are also obvious shortcomings - no safety back-up, must belay off the harness, no direct belay off the anchor.
The Gri-gri is an awesome tool - in the hands of someone who knows how to use it properly and safely. However, in the hands of a beginner, it's generally found to be too complicated. Too many "instructors" tout the fact that a gri-gri is an "auto-locking device", or is "idiot-proof", and will catch the climber in a fall even if the belayer screws up - and that's very, dangerously inaccurate. Also, instructors teach that one has to use the gate to slow down the climber when they're being lowered off, and don't focus on the fact that the belayer ABSOLUTELY MUST CONTROL THE DESCENT WITH THEIR BRAKE HAND. A belayer should be able to control the lowering-off with the gate wide open. Lastly, the gri-gri enables sloppy belaying, because EVERYONE knows that the gri-gri is fool-proof and will catch the climber in case of a fall. Hand off the brake line? It's okay, with a gri-gri. Talk to your friend about the hottie you shagged last night? It's okay, you're using a gri-gri. Etc, ad nauseum. That said, there are times when a gri-gri is a huge boon - when someone is hang-dogging (*ahem* sorry, working) a route and hanging in their harness, when one has to haul baggage/their second up, when one is doing rescue work, etc.
Sounds to me like both pieces of equipment are useful in their range, in the hands of someone who can use them. Maybe it's not the belay device, but the user.
T
|
|
|
|
|
artm
Feb 13, 2007, 11:58 AM
Post #123 of 256
(2139 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 22, 2001
Posts: 17990
|
redpoint73 wrote: artm wrote: shimanilami wrote: jakedatc wrote: In reply to: IMHO, if you plan to practice falling, make sure your belayer has a Gri-Gri. your humble opinion is what makes for lazy ass belayers who think they don't have to lock off every time and are ready for a fall at any time. . Well, it's brilliant opinions like yours that end up getting people dropped while "practice falling". If the belayer had used a Gri-Gri, the leader would not have been dropped. Why? Because the "default" on the Gri-Gri is to autolock. The default for an ATC, in contrast, is "dropped leader". I don't know how anyone in their right mind can argue that a Gri-Gri isn't safer than an ATC. If you are one of those who are in this camp, please enlighten me. It Depends. A Gri-Gri in the hands of someone who's been taught advanced belaying skills with the device in question is safer. However an untrained beginner who thinks the Gri-Gri will automatically lock off every time is an accident waiting to happen. There have been many instances where people have been dropped by belayers using Gri-Gri's. With certain skinny ropes the device in question still needs the belayers hand on the brake side of the rope. With ANY rope, the belayers hand should be on the brake side of the rope when using a Grigri. Taking your brake hand off is improper use of the device. People are saying that the Grigri makes people lazy b/c they learn they don't have to lock-off. This is improper use of the device. The autolock is a backup, you still need to have your brake hand on, and you still need to lock off. Don't blame the device if people cannot use it right. Thats why the Grigri is not a beginner tool. You still need to know how to belay, PLUS there are added complexities.
|
|
|
|
|
maldaly
Feb 13, 2007, 12:09 PM
Post #124 of 256
(2118 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 31, 2002
Posts: 1190
|
taino, you are soooo right. Your rant should be chiseled into the entrance of every gym out there. From a device standpoint, a Grigri or Cinch might be "safer" than a manual style device but when you look at the stats you'll see that there are way more dropped climbers (maybe 10:1?)with locking assist devices than there are with the manual one. It's no contest. There are lots of reasons for this, the primary one being the assumption that these locking assist devices are somehow "safer", when in fact, they're just different. In the hands of a skilled and practiced and attentive belayer and Grigri or Cinch is a wonderful thing and allows the climber and belayer to work together inways impossible with manual devices. Note that my adjectives are connected with "and". Plenty of skilled belayers have dropped people because they weren't paying attention. As John Wayne used to say, "It ain't the arrow...it's the Injun'." The worst crime ever perpetrated against the grigri was when someone made the assumption that they are good for beginners because they are automatic. NOT!
Climb safe,
Mal
|
|
|
|
|
the_climber
Feb 13, 2007, 12:17 PM
Post #125 of 256
(2103 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 8, 2003
Posts: 6142
|
maldaly wrote: The worst crime ever perpetrated against the grigri was when someone made the assumption that they are good for beginners because they are automatic. NOT! Climb safe, Mal
Trophy for that.
Mal that is exactly why I don't teach any noob's how to use a auto-locking device untill they understand the short-commings associated with the use of them by an inexperianced belayer. I've never been a fan of them, although I think your Cinch rocks. I think the extention of your statement, and what would be the second offence to the GriGri, would be the fact that a number of gyms only permit GriGri/Cinch/auto-locking devices to be used.
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Feb 13, 2007, 12:18 PM
Post #126 of 256
(2445 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 9676
|
shimanilami wrote: jakedatc wrote: In reply to: IMHO, if you plan to practice falling, make sure your belayer has a Gri-Gri. your humble opinion is what makes for lazy ass belayers who think they don't have to lock off every time and are ready for a fall at any time. . Well, it's brilliant opinions like yours that end up getting people dropped while "practice falling". If the belayer had used a Gri-Gri, the leader would not have been dropped. Why? Because the "default" on the Gri-Gri is to autolock. The default for an ATC, in contrast, is "dropped leader". I don't know how anyone in their right mind can argue that a Gri-Gri isn't safer than an ATC. If you are one of those who are in this camp, please enlighten me.
Sorry, but this is a stupid reason to prefer grigris. No-one gets dropped by an ATC user because of the "default". Both auto-locking and non-autolocking devices drop people when their users screw up. And the proof is in the pudding: drops happen in equal proportions on the two devices.
Fact - the same accident could, and has, happened with a grigri, though by a different mechanism.
Let's not turn this into an auto-locking versus non-autolocking thread. I love the gri-gri and use it all the time, so this isn't a slag on the device. But any belayer who takes the attitude that their belay device will do the catch by default is not taking enough personal responsibility. Even though it autolocks, a grigri is just a tool - you must wield it correctly, or you will, sooner or later, drop your climber.
The real issues are:
1 - A climber got dropped, hurt, scared.
2 - A belayer screwed up, didn't use her belay device correctly, dropped the climber. I bet she's pretty scared, too.
In addition, we can argue that the habit of taking unneccesary falls increases the odds of someone screwing up on one of those falls, but that's certainly a point with good arguments to be made on both sides. What's not really at issue, though, is the belay device.
Though it is worth discussing how the belay device may have contributed to the fall, at least inasmuch as there may be something to learn about how to use the device more effectively. For example, if it turns out that Gail uses the same exact technique to belay her partner as her partner was using for her, I bet she'd be damn interested to find out that their roles of dropper/dropee could have just as easily been the other way!
GO
|
|
|
|
|
iamthewallress
Feb 13, 2007, 12:23 PM
Post #127 of 256
(2439 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 1, 2003
Posts: 2463
|
gblauer wrote: Seriously the most important lessons I learned were: 1) It can happen to anyone (even if you are the world's greatest climber, your belayer can fail you) 2) Cull the herd; only let those that you know, trust and have the experience to put you on belay.
1. Anyone can make a mistake when belaying, even the world's greatest belayer. None of us are infallable, even if we haven't made that mistake yet. We still could.
2. As a belayer, I tend to pick partners who don't fall as a matter of course because recognizing that true accidents can happen to us all, I don't want to be the belayer who is being admonished on the internet for being part of the herd that needs to be culled.
I know many exceptionally experienced people who have been dropped. In fact the more experienced someone is, it seems the more likely that such a fate has visited them just b/c they've had more opportunities for the odds to catch up with them. It's not that flukey of an occurance. To say that it shouldn't happen doesn't really accept the risk that exists because it does happen.
When you choose to fall, especially on purpose, I think that you need to accept that there will be a minimal but possible chance of your mainly non-redundant system failing, whether that's your rope, your anchor, your harness, or your partner.
Part of the Warrior's Way of choosing to fall or risk falling, as I understood it, is deciding that you're comfortable with that level of risk and accepting responsability for the outcome of your choices. Even if it works out the vast majority of the time for the folks who aren't trying if they're not flying, it doesn't allways because, as the Warrior's Way says, we can't control everything all the time. That's just a fact and, IMO, it's part of the game if you choose to play it.
I do hope that you heal, and I hope that your belayer heals too. It's hard to beleive that if you did make vocal and eye contact with her that she was actually uninterested in your safety at the time of your fall and that the rope didn't just slip away from her despite her best effort. She must be pretty emotionally destroyed, and even more so after reading this 100+ post thread entitled "Belayer Failure = Broken Back".
(This post was edited by iamthewallress on Feb 13, 2007, 12:44 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
iamthewallress
Feb 13, 2007, 12:37 PM
Post #128 of 256
(2419 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 1, 2003
Posts: 2463
|
curt wrote: You make it sound as though a belay is some sort of objective danger, like avalanches, rockfall or other similar risks that are beyond our control as climbers--and that simply isn't the case. A good belayer would never make the mistake that happened in this case--period.
I disagree Curt.
Although an avalanche is certainly much more out of our control than the belay, the belay is controled by humans, and thus is inherantly error prone.
Although better and worse belayers exist, I don't believe that there is a perfect human out there who will never make a mistake.
If we choose to accept the risk of falling, especially in the context of "fall sessions" where falling is the whole point, I think that we need to accept that system failure can occur and decide if that risk feels small enough to us to continue to fall for practice or not.
|
|
|
|
|
climbsomething
Feb 13, 2007, 12:49 PM
Post #129 of 256
(2392 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 29, 2002
Posts: 8588
|
iamthewallress wrote: If we choose to accept the risk of falling, especially in the context of "fall sessions" where falling is the whole point, I think that we need to accept that system failure can occur and decide if that risk feels small enough to us to continue to fall for practice or not.
Something that is troubling to me is that in her many posts in this thread, the OP is not even hinting at any personal responsibility she may have had in this accident. While I am not saying that intentional falls are hogwash, I agree that the climber should be aware of the risks and what system weaknesses a seemingly harmless activity could expose- and it's not clear if she is aware of that. Just like even the best belayer could, in theory, mess up, even a controlled fall could (and did) have an unfortunate outcome. And I think it must be said that a controlled fall on a 30-foot 5.7 is probably more likely to result in injury than, say, pinging from the top of a 90-foot 12d. Now I haven't seen this shorty Pennsylvania gym route and never will, but I'd bet that there were just more and closer things to hit, including the ground. Now clearly she felt comfortable and felt the risk was acceptable at the time, but it turns out that it wasn't. This is worth at least meditating on, don't you think?
It's ultimately the belayer's fault and she knows it, but Gail played some role here and I think that should be on her list of things to take away from this.
(This post was edited by climbsomething on Feb 13, 2007, 12:51 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
zeke_sf
Feb 13, 2007, 12:53 PM
Post #130 of 256
(2380 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 18730
|
As a final, final observation on this from me, I expect my belayer to catch me when neither one of us expects me to fall--much less when the fall was intentional! Devices have various shortcomings, and it is the belayer's duty to do his or her best to compensate for those and provide as close to a 100% as possible. That said, I've been distracted and had various issues myself. I guess I've been lucky on both ends of the rope. We should all use this as an opportunity to sort the good and bad advice, examine our own practices and thoughts, and, most importantly, catch the leader falls! My sympathy are with Gail as well as her belayer. Honestly, none of us wants to be in either situation.
|
|
|
|
|
maldaly
Feb 13, 2007, 12:55 PM
Post #131 of 256
(2373 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 31, 2002
Posts: 1190
|
What's really bad, and shame on the climbing gym industry for this one, is that for every gym that demands that only locking assit devices be used, there is one that doesn't allow them at all. Fast forward to the courtroom where, faced with a plaintiff in a wheelchair from having been dropped, you have to defend whichever practice it was that you required in your gym. Can you even imagine all the battling expert witnesses?
Mal
|
|
|
|
|
alexmac
Feb 13, 2007, 12:58 PM
Post #132 of 256
(2363 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 23, 2005
Posts: 550
|
maldaly wrote: I'm with 'thewallress here. The single most important thing I do before being lowered off is make eye contact with the belayer to be sure he/she is paying attention and has got me. The second most important thing I do is to hold on to the other side of the rope with a death grip until I can feel that the bealyer has me. I HATE it when the leader clips the anchors then just drops off, assuming that I have him. No way... Mal
Mal, your on belay ready to catch until your climber says "done climbing" and at which point if your off belay "belay off"; until that point your always suppose to be ready to catch. The person may be out of sight, out of ear shot, etc.
|
|
|
|
|
pylonhead
Feb 13, 2007, 1:05 PM
Post #133 of 256
(2346 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 9, 2004
Posts: 283
|
cracklover wrote: You mentioned that you see your belayer every day. Tell me, does she have any burns on her non-brake hand or fingers? Reason I ask: There is a fairly common belay practice with a built in failure method. It was the way I learned to belay with an ATC, and I continued to do so until instructed to do otherwise by a guide, a year or so later. I had a hard time believing the guide that there was a problem with that my method, because *so* many people used it (and still do). So I looked around. Within a year, I had seen *two* people get dropped, both with that belay method, and both from exactly the reason described by the guide. Here's the specific method, and the specific fault: Palm up, pinch and slide, where the non-brake hand pinches both ropes. Using this method, there is a moment when the belayer takes in rope, pulling it up parallel with the "live" strand. Next, in order to be able to slide the brake hand back down the rope, the belayer pinches both the brake strand and the live strand with the non-brake hand (typically left hand). If, at exactly that moment, the climber falls, both the belayer's hands grasp hard on the rope. Problem is, the belayer's left hand is pinching both ropes, and keeping the brake strand up too high, so the brake hand can't lock off. At this point, the belayer's hands are burned, he loses control, and no-one understands what went wrong. ... Please note, if you're someone who's been belaying for 10 years with this method and thinks this can't happen to you - you're probably right! In my experience, people who make it past five years or so with this method seem to have sufficiently trained themselves to *let go* with the left hand when the climber falls, if it happens at that point in the belay method. This is highly anti-intuitive, since most of the time the left hand on the live strand helps catch a fall. There's just that one split second where the left must know *not* to do what it usually does.
I would be interested in the answer to the question posed above: Does she belay palm up? And are the belayer's rope burns on her non-brake hand?
I'm interested because I was dropped 20 feet in the gym, and the situation described above exactly matches what happened to us.
My belayer was experienced.. he's caught me falling hundreds of times of the course of several years. He belays with a palm up style with the pinch and slide method of taking in slack. When I fell he was taking in slack. He can't tell me exactly what happened, but I came all the way down, and he ended up with serious rope burns on his non break hand.
I was unhurt, because he never let go of the rope and slowed my descent without the benefit of his belay device (hence the serious burn).
Now I'm wondering if he didn't experience exactly the failure method cracklover is talking about.
|
|
|
|
|
maldaly
Feb 13, 2007, 1:05 PM
Post #134 of 256
(2346 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 31, 2002
Posts: 1190
|
alexmac, I'm not sure I understand your point here.
|
|
|
|
|
jakedatc
Feb 13, 2007, 1:06 PM
Post #135 of 256
(2345 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 11053
|
shimanilami Other people have replied with most of my thoughts on what you wrote but:
Take a look at the Cinch paperwork...NOT A BEGINNERS DEVICE! like 10 different places. this uses the same basic mechanism as a gri gri to stop a fall.
from Petzl website
In reply to: 1. Self-braking system helps the belayer stop a fall. 2. Smooth lip helps guide the rope during descent.
Gyms, boy scouts, camps, insurance companies have been falsely lead to believe these devices are safer but like Mal said there have been FAR more drops since gri gri's have been out than not. Ever hear the "brake lever" called the gas pedal.. thats what it is.. what kinda beginner device calls for someone to Let Go when they instinctually want to hang on harder..
The Default for the ATC is to pull down and back to lock off.. I do this every time i pull in rope. I have even had someone fall mid "pull in" in palms up belay mode and i automatically locked off.. never left the ground. barely felt more than if they had just hung on the rope
So yes.. anything that lulls people into thinking it will do everything automatically will make them lazy. I once saw someone lowering with a gri gri and only holding the rope ABOVE it while using the lever.. thinking the lever would do all the speed control... luckily the kid got going too fast.. the belayer let go of the lever and i ran over and showed him what he was screwing up.
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Feb 13, 2007, 1:07 PM
Post #136 of 256
(2341 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 18043
|
iamthewallress wrote: curt wrote: You make it sound as though a belay is some sort of objective danger, like avalanches, rockfall or other similar risks that are beyond our control as climbers--and that simply isn't the case. A good belayer would never make the mistake that happened in this case--period. I disagree Curt. Although an avalanche is certainly much more out of our control than the belay, the belay is controled by humans, and thus is inherantly error prone. Although better and worse belayers exist, I don't believe that there is a perfect human out there who will never make a mistake.
In an absolute sense, you are right, of course. Your belayer may even have a heart attack and die while he/she has you on belay--so there is always some risk. However, if belayer failure was normal for even skilled belayers, rock climbing would be a completely irrational activity.
iamthewallress wrote: If we choose to accept the risk of falling, especially in the context of "fall sessions" where falling is the whole point, I think that we need to accept that system failure can occur and decide if that risk feels small enough to us to continue to fall for practice or not.
I agree with that completely--and "system failure" obviously involves things other than just belayer error.
This raises another interesting side-bar: It only matters if things work properly when you in fact rely on them. You may free-climb a 10 pitch route and never weight the rope. In that scenario, all of your placements, anchors, knots, belays, etc. were (by definition) good enough. However, every single time you rappel or fall everything must work properly to be good enough.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
the_climber
Feb 13, 2007, 1:14 PM
Post #137 of 256
(2328 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 8, 2003
Posts: 6142
|
Can you even imagine all the battling expert witnesses? <---- If the debates/arguments I have seen/heard/been a part of over the years is any indication it would be quite the battle. Devices such as the GriGri and Cinch are great additions to the existing gear, but in my oppinion should only be used be those experianced enough to know that they still have the job to do, not the device. I could see myself using such a device on a long belay while aid climbing where even the most attentive of belayers could unintentionally let their minds wander, but for me there is no replacement for good belay skills with a tube/plate type device, and the experiance gain from years of climbing. There is also no replacement for proper and clear communication.
I'm not that old yet, but remember when half the people you climbed with had stitchplates, almost everone could whip together a biner break, and a GriGri was something no-one had ever heard of. It is truely a shame that because a lot of people thought that these devices were a 'short cut' to good belaying such controversy over their use seems to be a daily topic. This especially when the real problem has been a lax approach to belaying in general by many. Belaying is one of the most important parts of the climbing system, but unfortunatly seems to recive far less respect than it is due.
Brenden
|
|
|
|
|
markc
Feb 13, 2007, 1:23 PM
Post #138 of 256
(2304 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 2448
|
alexmac wrote: maldaly wrote: I'm with 'thewallress here. The single most important thing I do before being lowered off is make eye contact with the belayer to be sure he/she is paying attention and has got me. The second most important thing I do is to hold on to the other side of the rope with a death grip until I can feel that the bealyer has me. I HATE it when the leader clips the anchors then just drops off, assuming that I have him. No way... Mal Mal, your on belay ready to catch until your climber says "done climbing" and at which point if your off belay "belay off"; until that point your always suppose to be ready to catch. The person may be out of sight, out of ear shot, etc.
Do me a favor. Go look at maldaly's profile. See if you recognize the name of the little company he owns. Mayhap this guy has a bit more experience than you, and you should read with more care.
Mal isn't suggesting he's going to shirk his responsibilities on belay. He's suggesting he hates it when a partner takes an unannounced fall for the fuck of it. I can't say I blame him.
I've caught my share of unannounced (and equally unintentional) falls over the years. A couple were with the climbers near the third bolt, and me getting ready to feed slack. I've never dropped someone, but I could have dealt with less excitement in those cases.
|
|
|
|
|
jumpingrock
Feb 13, 2007, 1:24 PM
Post #139 of 256
(2298 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 15, 2002
Posts: 5664
|
jakedatc wrote: So yes.. anything that lulls people into thinking it will do everything automatically will make them lazy. I once saw someone lowering with a gri gri and only holding the rope ABOVE it while using the lever.. thinking the lever would do all the speed control... luckily the kid got going too fast.. the belayer let go of the lever and i ran over and showed him what he was screwing up.
I've seen the same thing. In a gym where I got in trouble for using an tube device. Kid was lowering his dad, fortunately we got to him before he dropped his dad.
|
|
|
|
|
markc
Feb 13, 2007, 1:31 PM
Post #140 of 256
(2290 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 2448
|
maldaly wrote: alexmac, I'm not sure I understand your point here.
That's because he usually doesn't have one.
|
|
|
|
|
alexmac
Feb 13, 2007, 1:46 PM
Post #141 of 256
(2264 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 23, 2005
Posts: 550
|
markc wrote: maldaly wrote: alexmac, I'm not sure I understand your point here. That's because he usually doesn't have one.
Sorry, you still helping look for WMD's to find a point.
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
Feb 13, 2007, 2:54 PM
Post #143 of 256
(2194 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
alexmac wrote: maldaly wrote: alexmac, I'm not sure I understand your point here. My point is the belay job is to stay on belay, if someone drops , they catch until they are dead from other accident. Thus a person should always be ready to catch, you appear to excuse in your posting belayers out of a lack of trust. I have seen good belays take a rock and keep their eye on the climber, I have been stung by a bee; Then again maybe I misread what you were saying.
you misread what he was saying. mal's pointing out that climbers need to communicate with their belayers- just dropping off without communicating needlessly increases the risk of an accident. not that a belayer shouldnt be ready for a catch at any moment- they should, but if you're going to drop off and you know it, wouldn't you check in with your belayer? i always do.
mal's on a pretty short list of folks i havent climbed with but would rope up with any time without question- i'd trust him on the other end of my rope any time.
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Feb 13, 2007, 3:27 PM
Post #144 of 256
(2165 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 9676
|
Going back to the original "lessons".
1) It can happen to anyone (yes, even you)
True. It may or may not have this effect on others, but I'm going to think twice about my recent penchant for taking falls for fun at the gym. Despite the fact that my belayers have earned my respect and trust, every fall is still a roll of the dice, however much the odds are stacked in my favor.
2) You are only as strong as the weakest link in your system
True. Identifying what the weakest link is, though - that's the kicker! For example, are you a better belayer than she is? Unless you know what she did wrong, can you be sure? Do you know how often the gym replaces those nylon draws on the lead routes? You see where I'm going with this.
3) Cull the herd; select your belayers carefully and only allow those you trust to give you a belay
Unless you knew in advance that this partner was less than safe, and chose to climb with her anyway, this is both unfair and unrealistic.
4) Keep your circle small; know your belayers, constantly check on their potential for distraction, moods and energy level
Hmm, unless and until you figure out how and why she dropped you, I wouldn't make any assumptions. I wonder if it's more your shock, pain, and perhaps a little anger that's talking here. You're beating up on both yourself and your belayer. Knowing what you know now, is there anything that you actually would do differently? If not, you really have only three logical choices: 1 - Accept the possibility that this could happen again without warning with you as either climber or belayer, 2 - dig a little deeper to find out what happened, or 3 - stop taking lead falls.
Don't expect to figure it all out instantly, but perhaps posting here can be a tiny help/start.
GO
|
|
|
|
|
maldaly
Feb 13, 2007, 3:41 PM
Post #145 of 256
(2139 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 31, 2002
Posts: 1190
|
vtg, you know you're taking your life in you hands, don't you? I'll be down there in a few weeks. Let's rope up.
Mal
|
|
|
|
|
gblauer
Moderator
Feb 13, 2007, 4:24 PM
Post #146 of 256
(2117 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 3, 2002
Posts: 2599
|
cracklover wrote: 3) Cull the herd; select your belayers carefully and only allow those you trust to give you a belay Unless you knew in advance that this partner was less than safe, and chose to climb with her anyway, this is both unfair and unrealistic. 4) Keep your circle small; know your belayers, constantly check on their potential for distraction, moods and energy level Knowing what you know now, is there anything that you actually would do differently? If not, you really have only three logical choices: 1 - Accept the possibility that this could happen again without warning with you as either climber or belayer, 2 - dig a little deeper to find out what happened, or 3 - stop taking lead falls. Don't expect to figure it all out instantly, but perhaps posting here can be a tiny help/start. GO
Actually, I was concerned about my belayer. I knew that she had climbed for a few hours and that she was tired. My gut told me "no" but I climbed anyways. So, I guess I will add:
5) Listen to your gut.
Also, my other lessons, "cull the herd", "keep your circle small" are still valid, for me anyways. You see I do a LOT of coaching and I act as a guinea pig for many new belayers (with back up). I will no longer be a guinea pig.
I will continue to take lead falls, do falling drills and push my lead in circumstances where I believe it is safe to do so. I love to climb (boulder, sport, Trad) and this incident, while sobering, will not stop me from continuing my training.
Please understand that I have seen the belayer everyday since the incident. She is a healer and she is giving me healing sessions. I absolutely forgive my belayer, she did not do this on purpose and she is eager to understand what exactly happened. Am I angry? Yeah, I have been training for months, I was in great shape (mentally and physically) and I was ready to send in EPC. But, sh%t happens and when it does, anger doesn't help. It's best to move on, face the challenge and beat it.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Feb 13, 2007, 4:29 PM
Post #147 of 256
(2108 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21788
|
gblauer wrote: Please understand that I have seen the belayer everyday since the incident. She is a healer and she is giving me healing sessions.
That's the least she can do.
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
oldladyjugs
Feb 13, 2007, 5:16 PM
Post #148 of 256
(2078 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 8, 2006
Posts: 4
|
"So, several months of hard core training down the drain with one 30 foot fall. I really hope I can get my head back together."
Not down the drain..NO WAY...just another path on the journey...you'll be safer, you'll share what you learned and NO DOUBT you'll get your head together--that's you!
|
|
|
|
|
markc
Feb 13, 2007, 5:17 PM
Post #149 of 256
(2074 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 2448
|
alexmac wrote: markc wrote: maldaly wrote: alexmac, I'm not sure I understand your point here. That's because he usually doesn't have one. Sorry, you still helping look for WMD's to find a point.
This coming from a guy that couldn't find his ass with a headlamp and both hands. Stop bringing irrelevant political rants into climbing discussions every time someone from the US points out you're an idiot.
|
|
|
|
|
mayak
Feb 13, 2007, 7:01 PM
Post #150 of 256
(2009 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2004
Posts: 37
|
hey gail -- it's maya from an earlier gunks gathering you organized... and getting off the ATC vs. Gri-Gri debate, I just wanted to wish you a fast recovery and thank you for putting your story out there and sharing. It's important to realize that people I know can and do get injured climbing and that it's a potential for me as well. Thanks, --maya.
|
|
|
|
|
htotsu
Feb 13, 2007, 7:14 PM
Post #151 of 256
(2246 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 10, 2005
Posts: 673
|
markc wrote: alexmac wrote: markc wrote: maldaly wrote: alexmac, I'm not sure I understand your point here. That's because he usually doesn't have one. Sorry, you still helping look for WMD's to find a point. This coming from a guy that couldn't find his ass with a headlamp and both hands. Stop bringing irrelevant political rants into climbing discussions every time someone from the US points out you're an idiot.
To the OP, thanks for your willingness to answer people's questions about this. I wish you the best as you heal.
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Feb 13, 2007, 7:34 PM
Post #152 of 256
(2234 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 18043
|
the_climber wrote: ...I'm not that old yet, but remember when half the people you climbed with had stitchplates, almost everone could whip together a biner break, and a GriGri was something no-one had ever heard of. It is truely a shame that because a lot of people thought that these devices were a 'short cut' to good belaying such controversy over their use seems to be a daily topic. This especially when the real problem has been a lax approach to belaying in general by many. Belaying is one of the most important parts of the climbing system, but unfortunatly seems to recive far less respect than it is due...
I think this observation is dead-on. Perhaps that explains why so many posters have basically said "oh well, that could happen to anybody." Don't people actually know how to belay anymore?
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
epoch
Moderator
Feb 13, 2007, 8:01 PM
Post #153 of 256
(2214 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 27, 2005
Posts: 31839
|
curt wrote: Perhaps that explains why so many posters have basically said "oh well, that could happen to anybody." Don't people actually know how to belay anymore? Curt
And I went off to find the infamous "foot belay"... ...but could not find it no matter how hard I tried. Dammmnnn you curt. That's a fine example of belay ingenuity, and I'm sure that it did the job well.
|
|
|
|
|
tisar
Feb 14, 2007, 12:24 AM
Post #154 of 256
(2177 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2004
Posts: 2576
|
cracklover wrote: [..] Hmm, unless and until you figure out how and why she dropped you, I wouldn't make any assumptions. I wonder if it's more your shock, pain, and perhaps a little anger that's talking here. You're beating up on both yourself and your belayer. Knowing what you know now, is there anything that you actually would do differently? If not, you really have only three logical choices: 1 - Accept the possibility that this could happen again without warning with you as either climber or belayer, 2 - dig a little deeper to find out what happened, or 3 - stop taking lead falls. [..]
It's a shame this thread mostly degenerated into one of those stupid to-gri-or-not-to-gri flame-wars while the most demanding question (besides Gail's healing process) is still not answered:
What happend that caused the belayer to drop her?
Gail, I guess you and your belayer are also interested to find an answer. Maybe you can go back to her and ask her about her exact belay method. Is it pinch and slide? How many fingers does she use to pinch? Does she grab both of the ropes at one time as Gabe (cracklover) said? ...
Thanks in advance!
- Daniel
|
|
|
|
|
gblauer
Moderator
Feb 14, 2007, 5:46 AM
Post #155 of 256
(2149 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 3, 2002
Posts: 2599
|
What happend that caused the belayer to drop her?
Gail, I guess you and your belayer are also interested to find an answer. Maybe you can go back to her and ask her about her exact belay method. Is it pinch and slide? How many fingers does she use to pinch? Does she grab both of the ropes at one time as Gabe (cracklover) said? ...
Thanks in advance!
- Daniel
Daniel, I will ask her today, document her responses and post later this evening. With each passing day, I remember more things; I think I remember thinking that she was too far from the wall. I don't know if that is true, the only way I will know is to:
1) Ask her
2) Get up to the top of the climb and look down while my belayer moves to the spot I saw her in.
There was one other witness (she was standing next to my belayer). I haven't had a chance to talk with her.
|
|
|
|
|
vertical_planar
Feb 14, 2007, 6:19 AM
Post #156 of 256
(2126 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 319
|
Thanks for sharing this
My opinion is that routine is the single most dangerous habit in climbing
Will use the lessons learned by your story to renew the attention of all belayes I know (including myself)
|
|
|
|
|
tisar
Feb 14, 2007, 6:25 AM
Post #157 of 256
(2114 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2004
Posts: 2576
|
gblauer wrote: Daniel, I will ask her today, document her responses and post later this evening. With each passing day, I remember more things; I think I remember thinking that she was too far from the wall. I don't know if that is true, the only way I will know is to: 1) Ask her 2) Get up to the top of the climb and look down while my belayer moves to the spot I saw her in. There was one other witness (she was standing next to my belayer). I haven't had a chance to talk with her.
Hey Gail, that'd be really cool.
I've been dropped by my belayer once (just ten feet, with no harm whatsoever). Who's fault? Easy to blame him, but it was mine. And only mine. I taught him and forgot to tell him the "keep your fingers outa the belay" secret. Could have been as well a 30 footer with a different outcome.
Needless to say I still climb with him. And by now he's amongst the best and most reliable belayers I know. I hope the analysis of your accident will have a similar outcome. Sucks to loose partners.
Best vibes and wishes,
Daniel
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
