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maldaly
Feb 13, 2007, 1:27 AM
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Someone up-thread mentioned a practice which I think is dangerous. That is calling down "I'm in straight" or even worse "I'm off" when you've clipped the anchors and are getting ready to re-thread. Think about this one. There is absolutely no benefit to have the belayer on the ground know that you're clipped in and it opens up lots of possibilities for errors. I've seen bealyers dorp their hands, relax and take the belay off when they clearly shouldn't. Again, I don't see any benefit to this signal and lots of possible problems.
Mal
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jakedatc
Feb 13, 2007, 1:28 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: Oh My GOD Her hand got burnt by passing rope, how could this be possible ? I guess a pair of leather gloves could help, do not you think SO ?
In reply to: I never thought belaying was important and climbers could get hurt like that but now you opened my eyes to reality.
not to turn this thread into a little fire fight but WTF???
aren't you the accident searching yahoo and supposed expert on search and rescue blah blah.. oh wait you're just a fucking troll
rope burn is super easy to get once the rope starts slipping.. especially with the smaller rope diameters.
In reply to: IMHO, if you plan to practice falling, make sure your belayer has a Gri-Gri.
you should only practice faling with a gri gri? How about you learn to catch a fall.. anytime.. any where.. thats your job as the belayer. should NEVER have to say a damn thing.. what if she'd slipped in the same spot and didnt say anything? If you can tell exactly when you're going to fall every time then you aren't trying hard enough
can we please please PLEASE have kill files back
edit: Mal i agree. "Take!" /wait for tension and "lower" Anything with multiple words and non-standard gets confused, lost in the wind, unheard through a roof.. Simple, direct commands carry over to multiple belayers and situations.
(This post was edited by jakedatc on Feb 13, 2007, 1:40 AM)
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carabiner96
Feb 13, 2007, 1:30 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: Oh My GOD Her hand got burnt by passing rope, how could this be possible ? I guess a pair of leather gloves could help, do not you think SO ?
Majid...this isn't meant to be offensive, but have you ever actually climbed before - or touch a rope before, for that matter?
I've split my palm open catching a fall once. Cut in the middle blisters on the sides. Hurts like hell. I'm good at the getting through life one handedly, but NO handed just sucks.
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silascl
Feb 13, 2007, 1:33 AM
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puerto wrote: You read the fucking thread, the victim was a woman. Rapping is not meaningless advice because these breakdown of communication scenarios happen all the time outside, where injuries are likely to be far worse..Fuck the gym.. How exactly is is that a standard command like "take" can't be applied in the gym anyway? And bravo, you precisely made my point, the belayer "forgot" about the victory whipper because it was a nonstandard thing to do at the anchors (at least obviously for this belayer if she forgot)
Nothing in the thread said that the victim was a woman...no way to know that. Apologize for my obviously misogynistic use of He instead of They. 
I'm fine with rapping outdoors but the advice isn't helpful in this case. Next time someone is rapping off multipitch and falls, would you suggest they get lowered instead?
What is standard command for "at the anchors on a 5.7 but taking a fall anyways"? Take? Falling? Jumping? If this person had been belaying the climber all day, wouldn't they know? Or if they hadn't belayed this person before, what were they doing taking an un-announced whipper at the anchors?
Personally I would be quite confused if my partner comfortably led a route and then took a fall while at the anchors. But I would still catch them no problem with my ATC. seems like the belayer forgot somehow. By the way, this could've just as easily happened with a gri-gri. How many would give out slack to clip the anchors, stopping it from autolocking?
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oldsalt
Feb 13, 2007, 1:36 AM
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gblauer wrote: Irrespective of what I said or DIDN"T say, it's ALWAYS the belayers responsibility to be attentive enough to catch a fall. If I say "falling", "take" or NOTHING at all, the belayers job is to CATCH the fall, without warning, without verbal exchange, without eye contact. Think about how many times on a multipitch climb you lose sight of your climber while belaying. Does that remove your responsibility as a belayer? NO!
It is tempting to unload on her, and I doubt that I could get back on a rope in this situation myself. My compassion for her comes from a very near accident while I was using the ATC in the gym.
One of my regular group was doing a first lead of a tough route. He was so sketched as he went over the overhang that he skipped the clip and went up to a better stance.
As he made the final move to reach the next bolt up, I slid my hand down the rope to be able to feed him slack in a hurry, because I knew he was being visited by Elvis.
He lunged and missed and I recovered the slack in an instant, but I could not get any more in before he dropped. With estimated distances of 8' of run-out to a last clip 20' above the heavily padded floor, he touched lightly and then lifted back up a little bit. People came running from all around the gym and all I could think about was that my climber had decked, however softly.
All who actually witnessed it, and noticed that I was probably more stressed than my climber, came over to offer congratulations for a great catch. Several had seen the skipped clip and were watching because they realized that something was going down.
He wasn't injured and I can't see how I could have done anything differently, since short roping him would have also been my fault. No one blamed me for the close call, and no one hesitates to take a belay from me, but it still is in the back of my mind.
I really wonder how Gail's belayer feels, because it could too easily have been any of us - if we ever get complacent.
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curt
Feb 13, 2007, 1:37 AM
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gblauer wrote: Dingus, When I am training indoors, I drill falling for at least 15 minutes of my 3 hour workout. Sometimes I do it for a straight 15 minutes, or other times I do it at the top of routes. Understand, the gym where I climb, the last bolt is at most 4 feet below the horn. I always clip the last bolt and I always take the "victory whip"...
Well, I guess I'd recommend more climbing and less falling.
Anyway, it really sucks that your belayer was incompetent, but it's probably better that you found that out in a somewhat controlled environment--things could have been much worse. Best wishes for a speedy recovery.
As to those who say a gri-gri is the answer--I say BS. Belayer error scenarios are quite independent of belay devices, as can be evidenced by numerous threads on this very site.
Curt
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mojomonkey
Feb 13, 2007, 1:44 AM
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Sorry to hear it Gail. I guess I showed up at the gym not too long after you left. They wouldn't let anyone lead, maybe an insurance issue if they had two accidents in a day.
Hope you heal quickly.
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m2j1s
Feb 13, 2007, 1:44 AM
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One thing I do to try to prevent something like this from occuring is while I am in the gym (over a padded floor :), even when I'm on an easy route, I like to "fall" (without making eye contact or telling them of course) just to make sure my belayer is ready. This way I feel comfortable falling when I am outdoors, and my belayer has experiance catching unexpected falls.
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holdplease2
Feb 13, 2007, 1:47 AM
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Re Malcom's Observation:
I was climbing one day with a friend who was getting more and more into Sport climbing, where you arrive at a pre-set anchor.
One day in J-tree I was doing some final moves trying to make my way to a ledge, but it was kinda tenuous, so I stopped to shake out and get my head together. At this point I heard:
"Are you safe?"
As I had just placed gear and had a good footing, though I was puzzled by the question, I answered "Yes."
Since this was weird, about 30 seconds later I asked "What do you mean, am I safe?" I'm really glad I asked.
Not cool at all. And this was with a super-competant partner that I've climbed with off and on for several years. I just hadn't heard this language before.
I was climbign to a ledge with bolted anchors, and he knew that. Probably why he switched to "sport mode" but who knows?
-Kate.
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carabiner96
Feb 13, 2007, 1:55 AM
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Whats "are you safe?" I've never heard it before
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curt
Feb 13, 2007, 1:58 AM
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carabiner96 wrote: Whats "are you safe?" I've never heard it before
This normally means "can I take you off-belay?"
Curt
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jakedatc
Feb 13, 2007, 2:02 AM
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Kate ... good thing they didn't yank you off the wall thinking you were on top. It shouldnt matter what type of climbing you are doing.. climber should tell the belayer what they are doing.. not the belayer asking.. last thing you say on the ground is "Climbing" so.. until further notice.. you're climbing thats all they really need to know. sure it would be nice to tell them you're resting if it's easy to talk but you cant expect that
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carabiner96
Feb 13, 2007, 2:03 AM
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Sounds way more complicated than it should be.
In my world (small and simple as it is):
Belayer: "off belay?"
Climber: "off belay."
Belayer: "belay OFF."
Climber "Ok."
Though usually the belayer would just wait for the climber to initiate the off belay. Depends on how long they're dicking around up top.
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rai
Feb 13, 2007, 2:15 AM
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carabiner96 wrote: Sounds way more complicated than it should be. In my world (small and simple as it is): Belayer: "off belay?" Climber: "off belay." Belayer: "belay OFF." Climber "Ok." Though usually the belayer would just wait for the climber to initiate the off belay. Depends on how long they're dicking around up top.
Always - climber starts first in that dialogue. The less than ideal scenarios I made fun of above are examples of communication I see at crags and gyms all the time, but not textbook, which is always initiated by the climber - on the ground and at the anchors....
PS - don't use "off belay" at the anchor if you don't want to be OFF belay - i.e. your belayer can just walk away. I'm sure you're talking trad if you always use off belay. I can see that. But remember, trad and sport have their own systems - which I think can cause a heap of problems ... such as, "off belay" on sport climbs when the climber actually wishes to be lowered.
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holdplease2
Feb 13, 2007, 2:16 AM
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I'd rather not be asked "off belay." If you follow commands, you know. Belayer, you have the ez job. Just sit tight and do it until told to stop. End of story.
Of course, in this case, it sounds like that didn't quite work.
In this case, I go for rule #2: Never un-necessarilly shock load any system if you can keep from it. You just increase the odds of system failure if something isn't quite perfect.
Why the hell jump off of the top of a climb if you don't have to? If I were a gym owner and somebody was doing this all the time, I think I'd ask them to stop.
Sure, its the belayers job to do their job right...but the moment you let gravity take over your climbing and bodies are flying through the air on a regular basis, I think the game changes.
-Kate.
(Obviously I'm climbing more trad than sport (due to location), where falls are dramatically less frequent)
(This post was edited by holdplease2 on Feb 13, 2007, 2:17 AM)
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holdplease2
Feb 13, 2007, 2:23 AM
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Haha, Yeah, Curt, I figured that one out at just the right moment! ;)
When I ask "Are you safe?" It means can I take a pee, or git a sammich or dig for my Red Bull or check my blackberry. I'll still have you on belay, but, well, just don't surprise me. :)
(Kidding...kind of!)
-Kate.
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tradrenn
Feb 13, 2007, 2:42 AM
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Gail
I hope you are getting better and all will be well for you in nearest future.
I know we have a trip planned out to EPC and I was just thinking that if you would like then we could do some easy staff just to get you going. You think about it and let me know when I see you.
All the best to you my friend.
Wojtek
(This post was edited by tradrenn on Feb 13, 2007, 2:43 AM)
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zeke_sf
Feb 13, 2007, 2:43 AM
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curt wrote: As to those who say a gri-gri is the answer--I say BS. Belayer error scenarios are quite independent of belay devices, as can be evidenced by numerous threads on this very site. Curt
Right fucking on, Curt! I knew the direction this thread would tend when the device questions, etc. arose. The OP opened that direction up, so fair enough. I would (and have) gladly taken any form of safe belay. I only expect that belay to be an active and competently applied one. If you can achieve this with a hip belay or gri-gri, I don't give a damn. People belay people, not devices  .
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bennydh
Feb 13, 2007, 2:46 AM
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gblauer I hope you heal well and climb soon,
I'd rather not have my belayer ask if Im off Belay unless I prompted it. The climber IMHO should be initating responses from the belayer, unless the belayer notices something a climber needs to know. Anyway, I teach beginners and emphasize all the time how simple it is to miscomunicate and really jeopardize someone's life. In the local Gym you will hear my students running down what I thought was pretty universal;
Climber: On Belay?
Belayer: Belay On!
Climber: Climbing
Belayer: Climb On!
Climber: Tension!
Belayer: Tension On!
Climber: Ready to Lower!
Belayer: Lowering!
Climber: Off Belay?
Belayer: Belay Off?
Obviously there is Falling!, slack! and take instead of Tension. As well as clipping commands... but isn't this a pretty universal thing? Or at least I thought so.
I've had my own sketchy issues with miscommunication. I muttered Slipping amongst a few profanities and belayer thought I said clipping so she fed out some good slack making my whip a little more sketchy. My belayer caught the fall regardless of Jolt..good belayer.
Once again gblauer godspeed on your recovery, and your return to climbing.
Last thing; Why so many grigri haters?
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jakedatc
Feb 13, 2007, 2:48 AM
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Kate.. from seeing some of gail's posts in the past she's a big proponent of Arno's Warrior Way techniques.. i believe it goes into alot of the mental side of climbing
so for her practice falls are a way to eliminate the irrational fear of "safe" falls.. (clean. well protected etc) So in the gym to skip the anchor and take some practice whips on a bolted overhang/roof is an easy way of getting comfortable in the air. If they are using their own rope and not taking an excessively long fall (not likely since gyms are bolted so close) i wouldnt think they'd have a problem.. and seem to have not since she's been doing this for a while.
if you wanna see irrational go watch folks at the RRG doing back flips off routes after skipping bolts
http://www.victoryproductionstn.com/feature.html
(also heard of them taking long falls at rumney off Predator for fun)
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holdplease2
Feb 13, 2007, 3:10 AM
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Yeah, I've done my practice falls as well. But not on every climb. Here's part of why (not applicable to sport climbing, really):
I just heard from a guy who I really respect and his GF once that "once you let gravity take control of your climb, you're not the one in control any more." I think this was Melissa's (iamthewallress) boyfriend.
She's also the one who taught me that you trust your #1 parachute (your climbing ability and skillz on the rock) and only use your backup chute (your belayer or trusting your life to yarding on pro) if all else fails.
If we thought of a climbing fall as being as serious as a parachute failure, we'd prolly all be 5.9 climbers for life, though! Nobody would ever fall. But that's how it used to be, and in some styles, its still that way. Those people aren't breaking their bodies in gyms or at sport crags like we see here every week it seems, but they probably aren't breaking into the hard-send record books, either.
All due respect to Warrior's way, but in the case of taking a whipper on every climb you do, it just assumes that the system is infallable.
Its not.
Broken bodies and smashed heads prove that all the time.
All that said, I've taken 4 falls at 40+ feet, and one three times that, so who am I to talk? I guess I don't need to practice falling in the gym, eh? I'm better off practice climbing, instead! (Said with a laugh in good humor)
I wing about twice a year on trad leads, usually with gear at my feet. Last time I did this I dropped more than thirty, as my pseudo-belayer thought the thrutching deep in the crack was clipping effort, so she paid out slack, I yarded her 10 feet in the air, and she went for a "soft catch."
All this combined left me shocked, just 15 feet off the deck where before I had been just 15 feet from the anchors!
Next time I'll take falling a little more seriously, even if I think its only going to be a 6 footer.
Of course, tomorrow its sport climbing for me, I bet everyone will laugh at me being timid all day!
-Kate.
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wonderwoman
Feb 13, 2007, 3:24 AM
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rai wrote: such as, "off belay" on sport climbs when the climber actually wishes to be lowered.
When does this ever happen? If someone tells me they are off belay - sport or trad - I'm assuming they are 'off belay' and not expecting to be lowered. That's just plain crazy talk, with maybe a little bit of Darwinism thrown in there.
And to Gail - I am really sorry to hear about your accident. Hope you have a speedy recovery!
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maldaly
Feb 13, 2007, 3:35 AM
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wonderwoman,
It's happened twice to friends of mine. Both times it was a total brain fart on their part. They had pre arranged with their belayer that they would rap down so there was no question when they yelled down "Off Belay". Both times, they forgot what they were doing, threaded the rope to lower and leaned back and decked. One broke his pelvis after an 80' fall, the other fell 110', broke every bone in his body, punctured his lung and lost a foot. In both of these cases, the belayers were totally innocent yet neither can sleep at night because of guilt they shouldn't have to carry.
This gets back to my point earlier: get in the habit of holding your own rope as you begin lowering, just to be sure that you're actually being lowered.
Climb Safe,
Mal
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billl7
Feb 13, 2007, 3:41 AM
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holdplease2 wrote: In this case, I go for rule #2: Never un-necessarilly shock load any system if you can keep from it. You just increase the odds of system failure if something isn't quite perfect. Why the hell jump off of the top of a climb if you don't have to? If I were a gym owner and somebody was doing this all the time, I think I'd ask them to stop.
Besides most gyms are intentionally doing this all the time anyway when they do lead belay certifications/checks. Climbing teams supported by gyms also routinely do this to train the members to not be afraid of falling - gives them an extra edge over gumbies like me. And the gym very well ought to have something in place to check for the need for periodic maintainance ... or know that it is not needed.
Bill L
(This post was edited by billl7 on Feb 13, 2007, 3:45 AM)
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). I fully agree that "I'm off" or "off belay" is asking for trouble unless you are planning to rap. 
