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passing a slower party
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joemor


Sep 20, 2002, 4:07 PM
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how about you just ask when you hit their belayer. a simple "do you mind if we pass" should clear things up. theyll either say yes or as soon as we hit the belay and are safe, or no. its a no brainer. hey were on the route first and deserve the respect of being at least asked if they mind being passed.


joe


froggy


Sep 20, 2002, 4:08 PM
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Hallm.. or whatever..
I had a headlamp... thank you.

Sorry, I disagree..

If a party is moving quickly and then slows down considerably it is not the party below thems fault nor is it something that I will allow to happen. There are a bunch of climbers out there and it is rare to find a route these days with no one on it... so if a party will not allow us to 'climb through' I will take the initiative to do so..

Call it ignorance, or whatever you would like to call it, but I think I have a prime example of why it makes a lot of sense.
The fact that this party was so slow shows their lack of experience and that they were in over their heads and that they were totally ignorant to the fact they were so slow..

I still disagree

[ This Message was edited by: froggy on 2002-09-20 16:23 ]


froggy


Sep 20, 2002, 4:13 PM
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I will be polite and ask, I am a very safe climber, but if some one is going to put my safety in jepardy like they did at Tahquitz and not let me pass, I will just pass from now on...

You - try getting caught in the dark and try getting lost for about an hour in the forest and you tell me what you will do next time, k


Dave and Joe I agree with you both completely - but I will take responsibility next time and pass them even if their ego's won't agree to it and it is getting late in the day...

If I were that climber that was sooooooooo slow, my ego would be fine with letting faster climbers through.. No questions asked..


[ This Message was edited by: froggy on 2002-09-20 16:17 ]


grigriese


Sep 22, 2002, 3:06 PM
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My Boyfriend and I allowed a two guy party to pass us last weekend on Prodigal Son - what a mistake. We'd planned on doing the route over two days, they planned on doing it in a day. We figured it would be not only best but also nice to let them go go ahead of us. We even let them jumar up our fixed line. My boyfriend ended up spending over 5 hours in his aiders on one pitch alone because the party we had allowed to pass us several hours earlier made such incredibley slow progress. They bailed at 9:30pm from the 5th pitch, one guy was practiacally in tears and I was seriously concerned he might rap off the rope. We had expected to be at the top of the 6th pitch by dark, instead we lowered and bivied on the 3rd pitch - ended up topping out the following day in the dark instead of in the afternoon. Thanks Guys! The reason I write this is because I think it is fine to let people pass, but the passing party should really be certain that they will stay well ahead of the party they pass. The passing party has a responsibility to be very safe and as good as they say they are.

[ This Message was edited by: grigriese on 2002-09-22 15:10 ]


alpinerocket


Sep 22, 2002, 3:31 PM
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There has been alot of good discussion here on the issue of passing and I would like to have the opportunity to express my feelings.
I try to get up early and hit the rocks and I agree that the route belongs to you if you arived first however, IMO it goes back too single pitch etiquette if a faster party comes up behind you. Would you hog single pitch route on TR when there is a line waiting to climb it, or would you move on? I would move on and share the rock with others. I would do the same for a faster party on a multi-pitch as long as they are polite and ask and do it in a safe manner and location. I have also caught up with alot of parties some have let me pass and some have not. I was always polite when asking and I promised I would not hold them up long. I have even offered to let them rappell on my lines if they arived at the top in time. I believe it just goes back to being a human being and respecting the others on the route and remeber the "Golden Rule". How would you want to be treated if the situation was turned. Have a nice day. John



rockprodigy


Sep 23, 2002, 10:16 AM
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Well, I was going to keep my mouth shut on this touchy subject, buy I've jsut read one too many statements to the effect of: "if you get there first, you OWN the route". That is the biggest bull I've ever read. I'm all for being polite and considerate, etc..however...think about what you're saying...I'll take it to an extreme to illustrate the insanity of your statement: Let's say I get up real early and go to the base of the Nose on El Cap. I want to TR the first pitch all day long and I don't want anyone getting in my way...hey I OWN it, right? Another example is when you're on a narrow winding mountain road and you come up on ma and pa in their oldsmobile pulling a trailer. Hey, they got there first, so it's their right to drive 20 miles an hour and hold up everyone else...right? Wrong, they're required by law to pull over and let people by.

Be polite, but nobody OWNS a route, if that's how you feel, you're bound to get runover. There's too many people out climbing these days to have an ownership mentality. We all share everything.

Furthermore...good/fast climbers have every right to climb moderate routes as do slow people...granted, they should realize what they're getting into if they start behind a slow party.


froggy


Sep 23, 2002, 10:22 AM
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I agree rockprodigy!
Especially after my experience.. I too will ask politely, but will not take no for an answer if my own safety is being challenged


Partner drector


Sep 23, 2002, 10:55 AM
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Climbing yesterday, a belayer on another route told the climber below who could not get up thethe crux of their route that it was okay to move over to our route and cross our rope. I gave the other climber instrcution about how to cross our rope but otherwise did not object. The traverse was on very easy (5.4) terrain and about 15 feet long.

My leader was making an anchor but he had not said "off belay" so if the other climber fell on our rope, they could have pulled him off of the overhang. I hoped that the other belayer could see he was safe. I took a chance not objecting.

I think that a slower party should always allow a faster party to pass at a safe point. Just keep in mind what's safe. Rope crossing when someone is leading is not a safe place to start passing or crossing.

Dave


thrillseeker05


Sep 23, 2002, 11:19 AM
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These are all good points and being polite is a good way to help each other out on the rock. But being polite goes both ways. By not rushing another team on a route is also being polite. Sharing also means to move to another route when one is being used. No one said you own it.. but for the time being it is used. The analogy of the long narrow road made no sense what-so-ever as it has no relevance to climbing. There are times that you all have proven that it worked out best that you let them pass and all was good. But at the same time an advanced climber that starts a moderate route behind some other climbers knowing that he or she is going to catch them and rush them is flat out being an ass. So if you want to be an ass, power to ya. Just remember that not everyone will be pleasant with your decision and accept the fact that you were the ass not the ones minding their own business trying to make the climb.
Furthermore, it seems like we have some selfish kindergartners climbing these daysÖ you know the ones that come up to some kid playing with a toy and yank it out of his hands and then say.. ďitís my turn and you HAVE to SHARE!Ē.
As you can easily see this is not sharing nor is it understanding the concept


[ This Message was edited by: thrillseeker05 on 2002-09-23 11:30 ]


billcoe_


Sep 23, 2002, 9:45 PM
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Thrillseaker: Jimmy, we live in the same town. We have vastly different experience levels.

Let me say that generally you don't have a clue. But you do not know that you do not have a clue.

Please have an open mind for a moment.

If we were sitting down talking about this, it would be a real long discussion, so I think I may have some gaps in my typing.

Be aware of 2 things about me though: the first is that anybody who can catch me on a long route gets to pass as long as they are @ 10- 20 percent faster, not just a little bit faster, and there is no weather issues. I was climbing with 2 other experts once high on the grand in Squamish and let a real fast party of 2 pass as we watched the worst rainstom of the month approaching towards us across Howe Sound. They were flying, so were we, but had 3 people. We bailed and got to the ground min. before the heavens opened.

2nd) I rarely ever pass, and I try to avoid pressuring folks too.


The fact of the matter is that you have limited experince. Madturtle is talking long multi-pitch climbs. In the Tetons, Alps and Colorado, afternoon thunderstorms and lightning can blast you right off the rock. If you want to follow a party whom is obviously in way over their heads, while that electrical storm approachs and they dawwddllleeeeoooossslllooooowwwwlllleeeeee oooppppssssiiiiidddrrrpoooppppeeddddmmmmmyyyyycaaaaaaarrrraaabbbbiiiiinnnnnnnerrrrrrrrhhhhheeeyyyyyyyycccccaaannnnnnnyyyyooooouuuuuuwwwhahhhaattttttdddooooiiiiiiiddddoooohhhhhuuuuuhhhh??????: be my guest. And if you say, "well you saw they were on the route and should have gone back to your car and tried again tommorrow or next week or..." them we have nothing to discuss.

I suspect you will not do it twice once you do it once.

I'm not talking about anything we have in Oregon either. Oregon doesn't have any seriously long stuff. 4-5 pitches at Smith isn't long. The shield volcanos you can generally make your own route, even on long routes like the north face of Jeff.

Talking long routes here.

My answers to the origonal question are:
It is subjective.
It is situational.
VERY.

You should listen more IMO, you'll live longer. That's not a slam, just a fact.

Bill


hallm


Sep 23, 2002, 10:24 PM
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Hmmmm . . . I agree that whether to pass a party ahead of you is situational, and I have outlined in a previous post my feelings regarding options to go by a slower party. I will strongly disagree with any general statement that a party can or should lead through another party without permission (the only exception to this would be to perform necessary rescue operations under mantle of authority). It isn't safe. It certainly isn't recommended technique when two teams are working in cooperation, and is even more dangerous when unilaterally done.

Be safe and think ahead.


rockprodigy


Sep 24, 2002, 3:19 PM
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Bill, you hit the nail on the head. These guys don't know what they're talking about. Thrillseeker, I agree that passing someone on a 3 pitch route at smith is pointless, if there's someone on the route, go climb somewhere else. However, as Bill eloquently explained, on long routes passing is a necessity...if you climb more you will realize that.


donaldjamesperry


Jun 24, 2012, 11:30 AM
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Re: [madturtle] passing a slower party [In reply to]
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I think on a big wall you have to pass, it can be a matter of safety if the party ahead of you is parked or moving at a significantly slow rate. Your supplies and the jeopardy of your party may be at risk, people you are responsible for. And there is no sure way to gauge speed, the party above may be slowing down for some reason. In fact in California there is a law that you have to pull over and let people pass, more so on a wall. If you are picking out a climb like the Nose of El Capitan or the Salathe wall or the Regular Route on Half Dome, and you know you are going to go slow, do not get on there if you donít want to deal with people passing you.

However, I think there are exceptions. If the party that wants to pass consists of a more than 3 people who are not that much faster, or else if the party is inexperienced and will be potentially dropping gear, then no, they should not be allowed to pass. I donít want anyone passing me whom I have to worry about them dropping gear on my head all day. They will need to wait until I am done or get into a physical altercation as I tie their rope to the wall. And if I am suspicious of them raining gear on me, I have a waver they need to sign first making them fully responsible for any damages thy cause by dropping gear on me or members of my party. You want to pass, and your new to climbing, you are going to take responsibility for the people under you if I let you pass.
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csproul


Jun 24, 2012, 1:29 PM
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Ten years later...I wonder if the pass has been made or not?


donaldjamesperry


Jun 25, 2012, 1:06 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8xweziIaUMo

first for 10 years on a wall you will need much water, perfect water


guangzhou


Jun 25, 2012, 3:19 AM
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Re: [donaldjamesperry] passing a slower party [In reply to]
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Good conversation with no insults. Unusual on this site.


Passing while climbing is tricky and definitely situation dependent. I usually ask if my team is moving faster than the party and go with what they anwsr. I have been known topass after getting a "no."

A few years back my partner I decided we wanted to do a quick ascent of Royal Arches. The party ahead of us was above the bear hug pitch when we started on the first pitch. When we caught up to them we asked nicely if we could pass and they said "no" because we might slow them down. First chance we had we took a variation out right and got ahead of them.

We started the rappels before they finished the pendulum pitch. If we had waited behind them, would have been a long day for sure.

A similar experience happened on Snake Dike. We showed up to party packing up cam. One of three was pulling gear out and "racking up." We made polite conversation and they informed us they were there first and we needed to wait our turn. My partner and I left the valley floor after coffee in Yosemite Lodge, were at the base of the route before 9:00 and they were just breaking camp. We didn't think they were set-up to climb yet, but we agree they got there first. We climbed a different start, traversed into the route and we starting the death slab when their leader was reaching the second belay station. My partner and I were eating a salad int he lodge by 3:00 wondering what time they would summit.

A fast party on a really long route comes up on me, I let them pass. I just don't like feeling rushed by another party.


majid_sabet


Jul 21, 2012, 8:58 AM
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In autobahns, faster car drives on the left lane. If there is a faster party coming up, pull the side and let them pass you without given an attitude and don't be an ass about it . Same rules applies in high alt climbing where every step counts


potreroed


Jul 21, 2012, 10:23 AM
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[quote "zee"]Depends on the area and route. For example, in Yosemite on the long routes, acceptable practice due to bomber rock. Potrero Chico in Mexico, absolutely unacceptable, due to shite rock. If there is any possiblity of tearing rock, then my feeling is that passing or even climbing beneath another party is a dengerous practice and should be avoided. [/quote]

Since this thread has been resurrected I feel compelled to point out that historically Yosemite has had far more serious rock fall than the Potrero Chico.


chris


Aug 20, 2012, 8:27 PM
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There is a lot of grey in this subject. When the faster party catches the slower party, then both teams should COMMUNICATE. Ask if you can pass at the next convenient pitch (not the one with a hanging belay). The slower team should realize it will be more fun if they let the faster team pass, and the faster team should ease up to keep the stress down while passing.

I jokingly ask, "Do you mind if we play through?"

The easiest way is for the slower team to take a longer break while the faster team pulls through.

An easy (but advanced) way to do it is by sharing one pitch:
1. Slow leader goes first. Hopefully already mid-pitch by the time the faster team is completely at the anchor, so the wait is minimal.
2. Fast leader goes next. The leader can choose to add their own gear, but I've had a lot of success evaluating the gear (resetting or adding when necessary), and just adding a quickdraw or sling for my own rope.
3. The faster follower (the passing team) climbs next, cleaning whatever relevant equipment belongs to them.
4. Now, the faster team is able to take off on the next pitch before the slower follower comes up, cleaning the remaining gear.

Ka-pow!

i've only had to pass a team once in real frustration - they were going so slow that they ended up hiking out in the dark, and didn't want us to pass during the ascent because we may hold them back. I convinced them to let us pass (resorted to cussing at two belays), finished 2 pitches ahead, and we were back at the car before dark. Lesson I learned - its always easier to let a faster team pass than to be pressured to move faster than I'm comfortable with.

And that smiles and encouragement is more effective to get what I want than a frown and surliness.

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