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nicodeemus


Jun 5, 2007, 4:35 PM
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route longer than rope
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Is there anyway to get up a route that is longer than the half way mark on your rope? My climbing partner and I would like to do some 35M routes, but our ropes are only 60M long. Is there anyway to tie the 2 together and still be able to belay properly? I know the Fisherman's knot well, but how do you work it with your ATC?


(This post was edited by nicodeemus on Jun 5, 2007, 4:38 PM)


anykineclimb


Jun 5, 2007, 4:37 PM
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Re: [nicodeemus] route longer than rope [In reply to]
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30m rope?? kinda short huh?

get a standard 60 or 70 meter rope


ja1484


Jun 5, 2007, 4:38 PM
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Nope. Never been done.

If you figure out a way to climb a route longer than the middle mark of the rope, let us know.

Those guys that climb El Cap? They just have really long ropes. You wouldn't believe the rope drag though.


nicodeemus


Jun 5, 2007, 4:39 PM
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Re: [anykineclimb] route longer than rope [In reply to]
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Sorry, my bad. The ropes are 60M long. I was thinking about the half way marks.


snowey


Jun 5, 2007, 4:39 PM
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Re: [ja1484] route longer than rope [In reply to]
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be nice assholes. this post is in the beginners forum.


nuts_bolts


Jun 5, 2007, 4:40 PM
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Re: [nicodeemus] route longer than rope [In reply to]
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nicodeemus wrote:
Is there anyway to get up a route that is longer than the half way mark on your rope? My climbing partner and I would like to do some 35M routes, but our ropes are only 60M long. Is there anyway to tie the 2 together and still be able to belay properly? I know the Fisherman's knot well, but how do you work it with your ATC?

No, don't tie two ropes together. Get a rope of proper length.

Edit: Oh damn, too late.

Are these routes you're taking about the first pitch of a multipitch climb? Also, could you just walk off the top?


(This post was edited by nuts_bolts on Jun 5, 2007, 4:44 PM)


nicodeemus


Jun 5, 2007, 4:43 PM
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thanks. That's kinda what I thought. My climbing partner should have bought a longer rope then.


nuts_bolts


Jun 5, 2007, 4:47 PM
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nicodeemus wrote:
Sorry, my bad. The ropes are 60M long. I was thinking about the half way marks.

nicodeemus wrote:
thanks. That's kinda what I thought. My climbing partner should have bought a longer rope then.

Wait.. what?


time2clmb


Jun 5, 2007, 4:50 PM
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nicodeemus wrote:
Is there anyway to get up a route that is longer than the half way mark on your rope? My climbing partner and I would like to do some 35M routes, but our ropes are only 60M long. Is there anyway to tie the 2 together and still be able to belay properly? I know the Fisherman's knot well, but how do you work it with your ATC?

Some simple grade one math might help here. If the route is 35 metres and your rope is 60 metres then you have plenty of rope to get to the top of the route. The problem is not getting up the route, the problem is getting down from the route. You or your second will need to drag a second rope with you to the top and then tie the 2 together to rapel off.

I am not giving advice, just trying to give you one example of how it can be done. Do not try this without proper instruction. Alot of people die trying to get off of routes....it's very easy to fuck up. Stay on less than 30 metre routes until you know what you are doing.


time2clmb


Jun 5, 2007, 4:54 PM
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Re: [nuts_bolts] route longer than rope [In reply to]
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nuts_bolts wrote:
nicodeemus wrote:
Is there anyway to get up a route that is longer than the half way mark on your rope? My climbing partner and I would like to do some 35M routes, but our ropes are only 60M long. Is there anyway to tie the 2 together and still be able to belay properly? I know the Fisherman's knot well, but how do you work it with your ATC?

No, don't tie two ropes together. Get a rope of proper length.

WTF...? Is that the same advice you would give if the route was 40 metres long? What about 100 metres? First learn WTF you are talking about before giving advice.


anykineclimb


Jun 5, 2007, 4:55 PM
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Re: [snowey] route longer than rope [In reply to]
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snowey wrote:
be nice assholes. this post is in the beginners forum.

why not contribute to the thread instead of being the self appointed rc.com police?


to the OP, time2climb gave an excellent answer


sbaclimber


Jun 5, 2007, 4:59 PM
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Re: [nicodeemus] route longer than rope [In reply to]
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nicodeemus wrote:
My climbing partner and I would like to do some 35M routes, but our ropes are only 60M long.
I am really fighting the urge to be a smart-ass here......but I will try to be helpful anyway Tongue
After re-reading your posts, I am going to assume that you are in fact planning on toproping....correct?
If you are, then knotting the ropes together with a double fisherman's is the correct thing to do!
Edit....and yes, if you are leading (in which case I am scared that you don't already know the answer to your own question), time2clmb did give the correct answer.

...........okay, I can't resist it anymore........
Why are you worried about the ATC?
You do realise that you do not have to tie into the absolute end of a rope, right!?


(This post was edited by sbaclimber on Jun 5, 2007, 5:09 PM)


nuts_bolts


Jun 5, 2007, 5:03 PM
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time2clmb wrote:
nuts_bolts wrote:
nicodeemus wrote:
Is there anyway to get up a route that is longer than the half way mark on your rope? My climbing partner and I would like to do some 35M routes, but our ropes are only 60M long. Is there anyway to tie the 2 together and still be able to belay properly? I know the Fisherman's knot well, but how do you work it with your ATC?

No, don't tie two ropes together. Get a rope of proper length.

WTF...? Is that the same advice you would give if the route was 40 metres long? What about 100 metres? First learn WTF you are talking about before giving advice.

Whoa, slow down there turbo.

Proper length, as in 50 m minimum, 60 m is common, and 70 m is required on some single pitch routes with only one set of chains where you can't walk off the top.

In case you didn't notice, the OP edited his first post. At first he said he had a 30 m rope.


rymep


Jun 5, 2007, 5:21 PM
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Re: [nuts_bolts] route longer than rope [In reply to]
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If you're leading the climb bring two ropes, one to clip with, and the other just hanging off you. When you get to the top tie them together with a double fishermans knot and rappell down. When you get to the bottom pull the end with the knot so it doesn't get stuck on the chains obviously.

Practice several times on the ground first, you don't want the knot to come out when you're on your way down, it will kill you.

If you're top-roping then get to the top and tie them together on the side you'll belay with. Just make sure the tie-in end is on the ground when you tie them together so you'll be able to lower someone without the knot hitting the draw or whatever you're using and belay them without the knot hitting the belay device your belayer is using.

Again, practice all this on the ground several times.


Partner angry


Jun 5, 2007, 5:37 PM
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Re: [rymep] route longer than rope [In reply to]
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You either need to tie in on a bight so you don't have to pass the knot OR use two belay devices to pass the knot OR use a munter if you know what you're doing.

You've got options. It'll probably do you more good to stew over it than to just be told though. Sorry to be so elusive.


time2clmb


Jun 5, 2007, 7:11 PM
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Re: [nuts_bolts] route longer than rope [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Whoa, slow down there turbo

Okay, that made me laugh...Turbo lol.

I guess it would help if the o.p. mentioned if they were tr'ing or leading. My original answer assumed they were leading. Yeah yeah....assumptions are bad m'kay.


nicodeemus


Jun 5, 2007, 8:30 PM
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thanks everyone. I guess I should have mentioned that we were planning on top roping the route a couple of times after leading it. Dragging the extra rope up makes sense. I've got it figured out now.


rymep


Jun 5, 2007, 8:56 PM
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Remember, just hook the rope to your harness like the other way and bring it up that way, it's much less work than packing it on your back and bringing the entire thing up with you.


time2clmb


Jun 5, 2007, 9:17 PM
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What route are you planning on doing this on? I see your from Calgary.


nicodeemus


Jun 6, 2007, 8:42 AM
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We were out at Cougar Canyon 2 weekends ago and I saw a nice route on Cosmology Crag, right... "Cosmic String", but it said it was 32M from the top anchor. We also saw a couple on Catseye Cliff, right "Dead Dog Cafe" and "Tennessee Plates" that were listed as 30M from the top anchor. Is it safe to climb 30M routes with 60M ropes or are you going to come to the end of the rope when you're lowering the lead down?


Partner the_shoe


Jun 6, 2007, 9:03 AM
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Not safe at all! (to lower that is.0

You are using at least 4 to 6 feet of rope to tie the rope into your leader and to the belayer. Or at least you should be in the habbit of tying into your belayer as well as the leader to avoid running out the last of your rope through the belay device while belaying 30M+ routes.

I have to agree with some of the other posts that this thread is becoming alarming at an increasing rate. Perhaps for your safety it would be wise to slow down a bit and have some one show you the techniquies involved in this process.

As for your question you could rap a 30M route with a 60M rope to the ground. With rope stretch this will be fine. But I would suggest that rapping off of 30M's to a ledge with the potential to fall off would require two ropes to be on the safe side.


Partner j_ung


Jun 6, 2007, 9:05 AM
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nicodeemus wrote:
We were out at Cougar Canyon 2 weekends ago and I saw a nice route on Cosmology Crag, right... "Cosmic String", but it said it was 32M from the top anchor. We also saw a couple on Catseye Cliff, right "Dead Dog Cafe" and "Tennessee Plates" that were listed as 30M from the top anchor. Is it safe to climb 30M routes with 60M ropes or are you going to come to the end of the rope when you're lowering the lead down?

In this case, tie a secure stopper knot in the belayer's end of the rope such that you can't lose it through the belay device. Another option is to have the belayer tie in also. Either way, the belayer might have to boulder up to give the climber slack to get down and untie. Or the climber might have to boulder the last few feet to get down under his own steam. Keep communicating with each other throughout the process.


wings


Jun 6, 2007, 9:06 AM
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Ropes stretch. A 60m rope will usually be fine on a 30m route (also, some companies like Mammut make their ropes slightly longer than the advertised length). Just to be safe, make sure the belayer doesn't allow his end of the rope to feed through the belay device (tie a knot at the end).

- Seyil


Partner j_ung


Jun 6, 2007, 9:06 AM
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the_shoe wrote:
Perhaps for your safety it would be wise to slow down a bit and have some one show you the techniquies involved in this process.

Always a good idea.


markc


Jun 6, 2007, 9:12 AM
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rymep wrote:
Remember, just hook the rope to your harness like the other way and bring it up that way, it's much less work than packing it on your back and bringing the entire thing up with you.

I'll add on to this. While it creates extra weight for the leader, having her clip the rope to her haul loop gives her more options. If your partner is carrying the second line and can't complete the route, you're looking at more shenanigans to get down. If the route is near the leader's limit, those shenanigans may be worthwhile.

If I wanted to toprope routes that were close to twice the length of my rope, there are a couple things I would consider. First, does the route lend itself to belaying from the top? The leader can top out, rig the anchor, and belay from above. The only time a second rope would come into play would be on the rappel (if necessary).

If you have a 60m rope and want to do a slingshot toprope setup on a 30m route, you have to consider the amount of rope necessary to tie in and tie an adequate stopper knot on the opposite end. The belayer will also have to be close to the base (in most cases). Also, are you sure of the length of your rope?


dynosore


Jun 6, 2007, 9:32 AM
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Well, it sounds like you're setting up a TOP rope, how about you belay from the TOP Tongue

Seriously, if you can't figure this out, you need to take a class, read some books, etc.


nicodeemus


Jun 6, 2007, 10:36 AM
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the_shoe wrote:
Not safe at all! (to lower that is.0

You are using at least 4 to 6 feet of rope to tie the rope into your leader and to the belayer. Or at least you should be in the habbit of tying into your belayer as well as the leader to avoid running out the last of your rope through the belay device while belaying 30M+ routes.

I have to agree with some of the other posts that this thread is becoming alarming at an increasing rate. Perhaps for your safety it would be wise to slow down a bit and have some one show you the techniquies involved in this process.

thanks for the concern everyone. I understand and have been practising the techniques for the last year. I always have the belay end of the rope tied to a rope tarp so as not to run out of rope through my ATC. I have always climbed routes less than 25M for fear of running out of rope. Just recently have I been curious about the longer routes.


(This post was edited by nicodeemus on Jun 6, 2007, 10:41 AM)


Partner epoch
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Jun 6, 2007, 12:41 PM
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They DO make longer ropes, you know...


gunkiemike


Jun 6, 2007, 1:25 PM
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It *is* possible to lead and rap a 30+ m route with a 60m rope WITHOUT anyone trailing or backpacking the second rope.

(pause to let that sink in)

Leader climbs. Belays from the top. Second follows. Either one raps on a single rope. Climber now at the base ties second rope's end to the rap line. Leader hauls up rope and raps two ropes in normal fashion.


Partner j_ung


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The ol' Gri-gri double-rope rap trick. Yarrrr...


studclimber


Jun 7, 2007, 3:45 PM
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I'm guessing you are just top-roping, judging by the whole 35 meter pitch deal. So, you either need to get a 70 m rope, or you need to learn to climb multipitch, and either use a second rope for rapping(get some instruction from someone experienced) or just make do with single rope rappels.


quiteatingmysteak


Jun 7, 2007, 3:53 PM
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Assuming you can get to the top anchors, which is what i am gathering from your description....


1.) Belay from the top with a *proper* anchor on top. Consult one of many guidebooks, including "More Climbing Anchors" for a better idea.


2.) tie 2 ropes together, rap down, pull the ropes, lead up, belay up your second. Which knot to tie them together with? I'll let you sort out that bag o worms Tongue


3.) Consider the last thing to limit your climbing be the lenght of the route. rather, let the size of reality be the reason your out there :)


jt512


Jun 8, 2007, 6:44 PM
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blueeyedclimber


Jun 8, 2007, 7:23 PM
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jt512 wrote:

...YARRRR! You be buyin' a one-way ticket to Davey Jones locker!


(This post was edited by blueeyedclimber on Jun 8, 2007, 7:35 PM)


evanwish


Jun 15, 2007, 12:39 PM
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ja1484 wrote:
Nope. Never been done.

If you figure out a way to climb a route longer than the middle mark of the rope, let us know.

Those guys that climb El Cap? They just have really long ropes. You wouldn't believe the rope drag though.

wow. you crack me up! dang.

seriously folks, he's not even joking. this is serious stuff, you know; that 8000' rope set up on on El Cap. [yeah the rope drag was pretty bad felt like uhh, mabey 6000 pounds?]


rockguide


Jun 19, 2007, 5:35 AM
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gunkiemike wrote:
It *is* possible to lead and rap a 30+ m route with a 60m rope WITHOUT anyone trailing or backpacking the second rope.

(pause to let that sink in)

Leader climbs. Belays from the top. Second follows. Either one raps on a single rope. Climber now at the base ties second rope's end to the rap line. Leader hauls up rope and raps two ropes in normal fashion.

I do this often.


markc


Jun 19, 2007, 6:36 AM
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Rockguide and gunkiemike, that just seems like a good bit of added effort to me. While I didn't specifically outline it, this is a part of the shenanigans I was thinking about in my earlier post. What are the advantages?

If you're going to do this, it would seem practical to lower off the second in most cases. He's already on belay when he hits the top. Why bother switching to a single-strand rap, then hauling line and swapping to a double-strand rap? Just lower him off, take him off belay, then up rope with the other strand attached.


iwasasportweenie


Jun 19, 2007, 7:36 AM
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A large trampoline placed at the bottom of the route could work, since with rope stretch you shouldn't be more than 20-25 feet off the ground.


jt512


Jun 19, 2007, 9:57 AM
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Re: [gunkiemike] route longer than rope [In reply to]
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gunkiemike wrote:
It *is* possible to lead and rap a 30+ m route with a 60m rope WITHOUT anyone trailing or backpacking the second rope.

(pause to let that sink in)

Leader climbs. Belays from the top. Second follows. Either one raps on a single rope. Climber now at the base ties second rope's end to the rap line. Leader hauls up rope and raps two ropes in normal fashion.

Knot gets stuck while hauling, and the rope cannot be pulled from either direction.

Climber at top...yells for help?

Climber at bottom...has a cell phone signal?

It'll take some creative thinking to get out of this situation safely, and without having to leave a fixed rope behind. Options are further limited by one member of the team being a beginner. The climber at the bottom could rope-solo up to free the knot, or the climber at the top could single-line rap down to the knot, free the jam, and then jug back up and try again. A double-line rap down to the knot may be possible if the knot is high enough. Anyway, the possibility of this scenario developing seems reason enough for the party to bring two ropes up (which raises the question of who should haul the 2nd line).

Jay


Partner alexmac


Jun 19, 2007, 10:22 AM
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Re: [nuts_bolts] route longer than rope [In reply to]
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nuts_bolts wrote:
No, don't tie two ropes together. Get a rope of proper length.

Ya it costs me a monthly storage fee to store those 3000, 2999 m, 2998 m , you get the progression.


markc


Jun 19, 2007, 10:27 AM
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Re: [jt512] route longer than rope [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
gunkiemike wrote:
It *is* possible to lead and rap a 30+ m route with a 60m rope WITHOUT anyone trailing or backpacking the second rope.

(pause to let that sink in)

Leader climbs. Belays from the top. Second follows. Either one raps on a single rope. Climber now at the base ties second rope's end to the rap line. Leader hauls up rope and raps two ropes in normal fashion.

Knot gets stuck while hauling, and the rope cannot be pulled from either direction.

Climber at top...yells for help?

Climber at bottom...has a cell phone signal?

It'll take some creative thinking to get out of this situation safely, and without having to leave a fixed rope behind. Options are further limited by one member of the team being a beginner. The climber at the bottom could rope-solo up to free the knot, or the climber at the top could single-line rap down to the knot, free the jam, and then jug back up and try again. A double-line rap down to the knot may be possible if the knot is high enough. Anyway, the possibility of this scenario developing seems reason enough for the party to bring two ropes up (which raises the question of who should haul the 2nd line).

Jay

All of which is why I originally filed this under 'shenanigans'. As far as who hauls it, that's something I've been trying to get at. If the route is at the leader's limit, is the extra weight going to screw her up? If the weight isn't going to be a major impact, it gives the leader more options if the route can't be completed or if the second can't finish the pitch.

If the second brings up the rope, I'd strongly suggest wearing it instead of trailing it. Otherwise you run some of the same risks as in Jay's example. Then you're either lowering the second to free the snag or dropping the tag line. If the second can't complete the pitch, then you're either hauling him up, or lowering him off, pulling the rope up through the protection and pitching it so you can get the second line, hauling it up, then cleaning the damn route yourself.

Another alternative I wouldn't suggest would be rapping down to an intermediate bolt, clipping in direct, pulling the line, and either leaving a biner or doing the Texas Rope Trick. If you try that and stick your rope on the first pull with a n00b partner, then you might be in really bad shape!


gunkiemike


Jun 19, 2007, 6:50 PM
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Re: [jt512] route longer than rope [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
gunkiemike wrote:
It *is* possible to lead and rap a 30+ m route with a 60m rope WITHOUT anyone trailing or backpacking the second rope.

(pause to let that sink in)

Leader climbs. Belays from the top. Second follows. Either one raps on a single rope. Climber now at the base ties second rope's end to the rap line. Leader hauls up rope and raps two ropes in normal fashion.

Knot gets stuck while hauling, and the rope cannot be pulled from either direction.

Climber at top...yells for help?

Climber at bottom...has a cell phone signal?

It'll take some creative thinking to get out of this situation safely, and without having to leave a fixed rope behind. Options are further limited by one member of the team being a beginner. The climber at the bottom could rope-solo up to free the knot, or the climber at the top could single-line rap down to the knot, free the jam, and then jug back up and try again. A double-line rap down to the knot may be possible if the knot is high enough. Anyway, the possibility of this scenario developing seems reason enough for the party to bring two ropes up (which raises the question of who should haul the 2nd line).

Jay

Props for giving the heads-up on the things that could go wrong. Anyone trying my suggestion had best be prepared to address said mishaps or pay the epic gods.

As for me, I sure as hell aren't going to lead with a second rope. So I give my partner the choice: a) backpack the second rope, b) trail the second rope (but YOU go back down if it gets hung up), or c) we do my suggestion, and I'LL clear up any rope snafus. For the record, I've never had a rope hang-up in this situation. But folks who climb in more featured terrain might have a different experience.


ja1484


Jun 19, 2007, 8:00 PM
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Re: [gunkiemike] route longer than rope [In reply to]
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Preferred method of getting second rope up to rap area:

Either the second packs it or wears it as a mountaineer's coil.

The best option: Walk off. It may take a bit longer, but you don't have to deal with the added weight and nuisance of a second rope.

There's also the knotless "end to end" taping...place the ropes end to end, then get out your tape...start about 6 inches above the splice and start wrapping your way downwards until you're about six inches below the splice. Boom...no-profile rope joining. Not very strong ( I wouldn't give it more than 20lbs or so holding power), but it'll let you haul the rope up. Add a layer of duck tape if abrasion is a concern (i.e. slab, sharp rock).


Note: After hauling, untape your rope, and *please* do not join ropes for rappel using this method :)


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