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richardvg03
Jun 13, 2007, 3:47 AM
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I would climb on it... but I don't value my life as much as others value theirs...
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curt
Jun 13, 2007, 4:18 AM
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coastal_climber wrote: In reply to: How much UV light do you suppose gets through your car windows? It was in the trunk. And, if I'm reading the OP's post correctly, this was over the winter. It certainly seems like the rope should be OK to me, unless, of course, there is more to the situation than what has been stated. Curt
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curt
Jun 13, 2007, 4:26 AM
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gunkiemike wrote: ...I've NEVER seen fumes, visible or otherwise, above sulfuric acid in my 30+ years as a chemist. Tell us now...have you? There are fumes above some acids: hydrochloric, nitric, or oleum. But not above aqueous H2SO4 i.e. car battery acid... Are you really a chemist, or did you merely stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night? I suggest you go back and look at the equilibrium vapor pressure of sulphuric acid around room temperature. Curt
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medicus
Jun 13, 2007, 4:46 AM
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I'm by no means a chemist, but I seem to remember seeing fumes from sulfuric acid in lab. Obviously HCl fumes and everything, but I could have sworn I saw vapors with sulfuric... I don't know, I guess I'll pay more attention to specifically sulfuric when the school year starts again.
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gunkiemike
Jun 13, 2007, 10:03 AM
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curt wrote: gunkiemike wrote: ...I've NEVER seen fumes, visible or otherwise, above sulfuric acid in my 30+ years as a chemist. Tell us now...have you? There are fumes above some acids: hydrochloric, nitric, or oleum. But not above aqueous H2SO4 i.e. car battery acid... Are you really a chemist, or did you merely stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night? I suggest you go back and look at the equilibrium vapor pressure of sulphuric acid around room temperature. Curt If you have VP data, please share it. The b.p. is 338 C, which by conventional volatility correlations equates to "no vapor pressure".
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markc
Jun 13, 2007, 1:12 PM
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fulton wrote: markc wrote: Way to trim the part where I said, "While I agree that we want to take care of our ropes as best as we can..." If you want to defend your point, please do so without quoting me out of context. AND DUDE, LOOK UP THE WORD "CONTEXT." Also, fuck you dude, I live in Montana, don't talk to me about COLD - you illiterate poser twit. Okay, here you go: con·text – noun 1. the parts of a written or spoken statement that precede or follow a specific word or passage, usually influencing its meaning or effect You did exactly what I said you did. You deleted the portion where I said we should do the utmost to care for our ropes. I went on to say climbing ropes happen to be less delicate than some people think. As Pit Schubert and others have done extensive testing and you're some random guy on the web, I know who I'm going to trust. A quick search showed January has the lowest average temps in Missoula, Montana. They're a whole 3 degrees colder than where I live. Your record low was 11 degrees colder than ours. The point is moot, since none of that speaks to cold damaging ropes. This is a discussion board, where people come to share ideas and debate the finer points of issues. Why you decided to get a bug up your ass regarding my comments in this thread are beyond me. I haven't sworn at you in bold text or called you names. I posted some information from a credible source, then you flew off the handle. Typically rc.com, I guess. It's funny that you're the guy that wrote this earlier in the discussion:
fulton wrote: The other concern, however, is dapness and humidity - and since the winter is usually a 'dry' time of year - it seems, to me, that you've lucked out on this one as well. So which side is it? Either you're greatly concerned about the effects of cold on rope (without yet demonstrating a credible reason to be), or you're not. If it's just going to be about personal attacks and baseless comments from you, I'm done. If you want to bring something worthwhile to the table, I'm all ears. I'm happy to be corrected when I'm wrong, but it takes more than speculation to shift my perspective.
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bent_gate
Jun 13, 2007, 3:39 PM
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gunkiemike wrote: bent_gate wrote: If a car battery was stored in the trunk as well, you need to be aware that the invisible fumes may have damaged the rope. (ever see the visible fumes above a beaker of sulfuric acid?) I've NEVER seen fumes, visible or otherwise, above sulfuric acid in my 30+ years as a chemist. Tell us now...have you? There are fumes above some acids: hydrochloric, nitric, or oleum. But not above aqueous H2SO4 i.e. car battery acid. Battery acid contact is a potential threat to ropes, but you needn't make up stories to get the point across. http://www.prn2.usm.my/.../nst/1995/nst20.html
"Sulphuric acid is corrosive in nature. It can affect the health of a worker who handles it through the inhalation of fumes produced from concentrated solutions. These fumes can be easily seen when a container of the acid is opened." There is a difference between "making up stories" and being factually incorrect. So I will not accuse you of the same; but simply assume that you lack the psychological resources to impugn the veracity of facts versus the character of the person. But then again, this is RC.com.... I guess you get what you pay for with this service...
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markc
Jun 13, 2007, 4:09 PM
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This is the only documentation I've turned up regarding cold temperatures and its impact on climbing ropes. It's from the WC Enduro information sheet (found at http://www.wildcountry.co.uk/dnlds/enduro%209.pdf): TEMPERATURE- Always keep products made wholly or partially from textile elements below 50C {122F} as the performance of the nylon from which they are made may be affected at temperatures above this.Tests down to - 40C {also -40F} show no permanent change in the performance of this material although nylon may stiffen while at temperatures below 0C.
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zionvier
Jun 13, 2007, 4:31 PM
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I think it's time to put fulton and markc into a ring and let them just fight to the death on this one. :) Or send them up El Cap together and see which one returns alive. Anyway, on the subject, I think the rope is probably fine, but I'd keep it in the back of my mind to retire it sooner than I normally would. I'd probably buy a new one soon anyway and use that for any climb where I think I could take a good whipper, and make that old one my top-rope and easy climb rope. Give it a good inspection like everyone said, and just keep it in mind. As for Pit and his testing, I'd like to read more of the details about exactly what he was testing. I stated this in another post somewhere on here yesterday... Rope is extremely strong and can withstand about twice the force that the human body can (based on testing done on parachuters... which says the human body's limit is around 12kN). So even a really warn out rope that originally rated at 25kN+ will still probably hold the 12kN... that's if you can even handle that much. It's not so much the strength of a rope that would worry me in most situations, it's the elasticity of it. Did Pit only test the breaking strength of ropes he tried to damage? Although the strength might not have been effected that much it might have effected it's ability to absorb some of that impact force when you fall, the difference of subjecting your body to 9kN instead of only 6kN. Static line is definitely strong enough to climb on too, but would you want to take a 30ft whipper on it?
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medicus
Jun 13, 2007, 5:05 PM
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Where did you get this BP data? I have found 327 C according to the MSDS data , and 280 C according to chemfinder.com, but the only place I have been able to find 338 C is wikipedia.... which I wouldn't base any of my chemical information off when I go to lab... and my labs have to be exceedingly less important than lab work an actual chemist does.
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fulton
Jun 13, 2007, 7:38 PM
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Again Mark, I think you're upset because you are dumb and you can't read.
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markc
Jun 13, 2007, 9:36 PM
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I assume you attack the person because you're ill equipped to do much else. You've already proven you're ignorant regarding the filtration of UV light by auto glass, and the impact of cold on rope. People have backed up their statements with findings from experts in the field and manufacturers. You've done none of this, but still want to talk shit. I haven't insulted you yet, but you keep making this personal. If you want to whip out undergraduate and graduate transcripts, I'll take the Pepsi challenge any day of the week. Would you like my current resume, too? If I'm such a moron, take the time to back up your opinions and illuminate me. Prove me wrong or shut the fuck up.
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dingus
Jun 13, 2007, 9:51 PM
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uzibear wrote: from the tradgirl site: Standing on a rope in the snow with crampons did no damage what? you mean puncturing your rope with the points on your crampons doesn't damage it? this makes little sense to me, but "on snow" i guess so it sinks in i suppose The rope isn't solid. Its constructed of threads. The idea is that the crampon points hole the sheath and penetrate the core, but for the most part are only pushing the individual thread strands out of the way. Your average crampon point makes a lousy knife. Every try to cut a rope with a dull knife? DMT
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markc
Jun 13, 2007, 9:52 PM
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zionvier wrote: As for Pit and his testing, I'd like to read more of the details about exactly what he was testing. I stated this in another post somewhere on here yesterday... Rope is extremely strong and can withstand about twice the force that the human body can (based on testing done on parachuters... which says the human body's limit is around 12kN). So even a really warn out rope that originally rated at 25kN+ will still probably hold the 12kN... that's if you can even handle that much. It's not so much the strength of a rope that would worry me in most situations, it's the elasticity of it. Did Pit only test the breaking strength of ropes he tried to damage? Although the strength might not have been effected that much it might have effected it's ability to absorb some of that impact force when you fall, the difference of subjecting your body to 9kN instead of only 6kN. Static line is definitely strong enough to climb on too, but would you want to take a 30ft whipper on it? Good points. Looking at tensile strength without considering the overall impact forces on the climber doesn't tell the whole tale. One major issue may be finding English translations of his work. If I happen to find anything, I'll let you know. If you read German, that will make Schubert's work much more accessible. Sadly, my German may be too rusty to salvage.
(This post was edited by markc on Jun 13, 2007, 9:54 PM)
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dingus
Jun 13, 2007, 9:57 PM
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uzibear wrote: here's something else: was your rope wet when you stored it in the trunk? if so, if it's freezing where you are in winter than the water would turn to ice and could damage the rope By what mechanism? How would the rope be damaged? How does water turning to ice affect nylon? DMT
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gunkiemike
Jun 14, 2007, 12:44 AM
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medicus wrote: Where did you get this BP data? I have found 327 C according to the MSDS data , and 280 C according to chemfinder.com, but the only place I have been able to find 338 C is wikipedia.... which I wouldn't base any of my chemical information off when I go to lab... and my labs have to be exceedingly less important than lab work an actual chemist does. CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 57th Edition.
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gunkiemike
Jun 14, 2007, 12:58 AM
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Well I am more than willing to accept new info. Thanks for your contribution, from the Malaysian Poison Control website. Other credible bits - Boston University vapor pressure < 0.00120 mm Hg (I imagine this is their LoD); J.T. Baker Co. VP = 1mm @ 145.8C (295F); Fisher Scientific VP < 0.001 mm Hg @ 20 deg C I guess the OP had better worry about their rope then...huh?
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medicus
Jun 14, 2007, 1:45 AM
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Alright... just making sure. I feel a bit better now. I say to the OP, just buy another rope... spend $150... it'll end any question in your mind. If not... just climb on the rope and don't worry.
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gunkiemike
Jun 14, 2007, 2:04 AM
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medicus wrote: I say to the OP, just buy another rope... spend $150... it'll end any question in your mind. If not... just climb on the rope and don't worry. Or buy a used rope on EBay for $60 and worry, but not as much. Or spend $90 on "new old stock" rope from an online retailer, and worry just a little bit.
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medicus
Jun 14, 2007, 2:35 AM
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Lol, for $90, I have some new old used stock I could sell
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curt
Jun 14, 2007, 3:37 AM
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gunkiemike wrote: curt wrote: gunkiemike wrote: ...I've NEVER seen fumes, visible or otherwise, above sulfuric acid in my 30+ years as a chemist. Tell us now...have you? There are fumes above some acids: hydrochloric, nitric, or oleum. But not above aqueous H2SO4 i.e. car battery acid... Are you really a chemist, or did you merely stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night? I suggest you go back and look at the equilibrium vapor pressure of sulphuric acid around room temperature. Curt If you have VP data, please share it. The b.p. is 338 C, which by conventional volatility correlations equates to "no vapor pressure". Well, since you are a "chemist," I'm sure you know that the boiling point of any liquid merely represents the temperature at which the vapor pressure over the liquid equals atmospheric pressure. Surely you're not claiming that liquids have "no vapor pressure" below their boiling points, are you? As I'm sure you can appreciate, that would be a highly ignorant position to take. Curt
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duckbuster_13
Jun 14, 2007, 3:50 AM
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This is a PDF directly from the uiaa website. to quote it: "Nylon is UV Stabilized" ie...UV will not damage your rope... unless it's from the 1960's... in which case, you should retire it anyway. www.uiaa.ch/web.test/visual/Safety/SafComdownloads/About%20aging%20of%20climbing%20ropes.pdf
(This post was edited by duckbuster_13 on Jun 14, 2007, 3:51 AM)
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medicus
Jun 14, 2007, 4:44 AM
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duckbuster_13 wrote: This is a PDF directly from the uiaa website. to quote it: "Nylon is UV Stabilized" ie...UV will not damage your rope... unless it's from the 1960's... in which case, you should retire it anyway. www.uiaa.ch/web.test/visual/Safety/SafComdownloads/About%20aging%20of%20climbing%20ropes.pdf ummm yeah.
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gunkiemike
Jun 15, 2007, 10:37 AM
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curt wrote: Well, since you are a "chemist," I'm sure you know that the boiling point of any liquid merely represents the temperature at which the vapor pressure over the liquid equals atmospheric pressure. Surely you're not claiming that liquids have "no vapor pressure" below their boiling points, are you? As I'm sure you can appreciate, that would be a highly ignorant position to take. Curt Very impressive. Now tell us what else you know about the subject. Maybe start with that famous equation that relates VP to temperature, heat of vaporization, and vapor density. C'mon...you know the one I mean.
(This post was edited by gunkiemike on Jun 15, 2007, 10:55 AM)
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zionvier
Jun 15, 2007, 5:23 PM
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I once boiled water... does that make me a chemist too?
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