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patto
Jun 12, 2007, 2:07 AM
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I like my fear. I wouldn't call myself a beginner, but i still have a strong fear of falling. I don't see this as and issue that needs to be fixed. I lead trad up to 5.10a and have only taken a couple very short lead falls. My fear of falling keeps me on the rock in situations where had I been top roping I would have come off 5 minutes ago. Adrenaline induced climbing pushes me well beyond my normal limits. This results in a better workout and hopefully makes me a stronger climber. As I see it, the only issue that my fear of falling causes is me to sometimes over protect climbs when it would be easier and quicker to climb on.
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macblaze
Jun 12, 2007, 3:15 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: One of the things that I reccomend for my students is that they lead something within their limits every time they go out and then set a top rope on whatever hard climb they are working. Just to look at the issue from a different angle. (and I'm talking sport climbing here people) If you live where I do, you aren't likely to find climbs that you can do this at (very little access to topropes if you don't lead it first). So you either continue to lead stuff well within your limits and never stretch or you take on some harder stuff so you can set up that toprope. This is the situation with the OP in the thread that spawned this one. It is very much a catch 22 and if you follow the seeming consensus here then you will never progress without shelling out many many dollars to a guiding service. When I was taking a lead class the subject of trad vs. sport came up and, as we were learning how to fall (and catch a fall incidentally) from bolts, we were also told in trad the mantra is "Don't fall". I think given a bomber set of bolts and some clean air that a fall is a good thing for a beginner that is starting to stretch. But then what teh hell do I know, I'm just a stfu noob...
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caughtinside
Jun 12, 2007, 3:38 AM
Post #28 of 80
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I don't really get why people need to practice this. If you WANT to climb harder, sooner or later you'll fall. if you are afraid to fall, you either won't get better, or your progress will be much slower than it could be. Don't practice. Do it. Go climb a vertical to overhanging sport climb, and refuse to say take. Instruct your belayer not to take even if you say it. Repeat until you whip. you shouldn't be taking on a sport climb anyway unless you're working it.
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stymingersfink
Jun 12, 2007, 6:46 AM
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ja1484 wrote: tradmanclimbs wrote: Ja, you are more annoying than Majid, if you don't like the thread don't read it!! . How the hell do you know if you're going like a thread without reading it? I'd like in on that technology. simple, and already available for anyone desiring to utilize the technology at hand. check to see who posted the original topic post. If it says "majid sabet", don't click it!
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microbarn
Jun 12, 2007, 9:53 AM
Post #30 of 80
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caughtinside wrote: I don't really get why people need to practice this. If you WANT to climb harder, sooner or later you'll fall. if you are afraid to fall, you either won't get better, or your progress will be much slower than it could be. Don't practice. Do it. Go climb a vertical to overhanging sport climb, and refuse to say take. Instruct your belayer not to take even if you say it. Repeat until you whip. you shouldn't be taking on a sport climb anyway unless you're working it. With this situation, the first fall could be very large. Practice falls let someone work up to that distance. The fear in people's minds could be enough that the long fall is dreaded. The practice falls let them reduce and limit that fear. What if your belayer isn't used to catching sport falls? Do you want there first catch to be a significant whipper? Why not make it smaller whippers first? Finally, you said it yourself.
In reply to: if you are afraid to fall, you either won't get better, or your progress will be much slower than it could be. practice falls let you progress or progress faster if your fear is holding you back
(This post was edited by microbarn on Jun 12, 2007, 9:54 AM)
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 12, 2007, 11:14 AM
Post #31 of 80
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If sport climbing is your goal then practice falls is something that you and your belayer need to do just about once. Trad climbers its the same deal. Go find a bolt and bounce on it a few times and you should be good to go for the whole season. I do this in the spring to help get out of ice mode. Sport climbers you still need the downclimbing skills. There are pleanty of situations sportclimbing where you are way better off downclimbing to the last bolt and takeing a hang than you are going for it and busting an ankle. When and if you grow up you tend to learn that there is a whole lot more to life and climbing than balls and glory
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granite_grrl
Jun 12, 2007, 12:09 PM
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iamthewallress wrote: granite_grrl wrote: I really wish I had had more falling experiance to know if the flipping upside down thing was a valid concern or not. Maybe I'm reading your wrong, but I'd think that the experimental route to determining whether or not falls will flip you upside down is a hideously bad idea. Practice falls are supposed to be about teaching your guts that nothing bad will happen when you fall when your head has already figured that out with relative certainty. I don't like them b/c the gut never forgets about the relative part of what constitutes relative certainty. Everytime you fall your safety system is non-redundant. When you get to the point that you are trying to learn how to manage tricky and potentially more dangerous falls (like long slab falls and penji's), the practice itself is going to be riskier. I honestly don't know if the risk:benefit analysis of practicing for dicey falls ends up being more dangerous than just taking as few of them as possible. I don't think you're reading it wrong, but perhaps taking it wrong. I'm not saying that I should have taken a fall at this point to see if I would have inverted, but that I wish I had more experiance in falls in general. I'm actually pretty sure that wouldn't haven't inverted....but I don't have enough experiance with falling to actually know. The situation. last bolt was just over the lip off a 3-4ft roof, good jug maybe 2-3 feet above the roof. I needed to hike my feet up to the lip of the roof the pull through the next move. I felt vunerable on this move, and while the move wasn't that hard I didn't feel like pushing it. I was just saying that if I had more experiance falling (like at the lip of roofs trying to get my feet up) I could have better evaluated the fall potential. If you never fall I suposse you don't need to know how to fall or fully understand these cases of falling complications....but I always think there's a risk of falling and fall potential should be understood.
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cfnubbler
Jun 12, 2007, 12:37 PM
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I'd just like to say thank you to Blueeyed Climber for finally putting this issue to rest. FINALLY, I can sleep tonight...
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 12, 2007, 12:47 PM
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Granit girl. What you need to do is take a really good look at the climb before you get on it. Make a mental note of where the dangerous sections are. If you are below that roof scopeing it out you need to ask yourself how safe is it to go for it here and fall? am I going to smack my chin on the edge of that roof or is it going to be a totally soft bungee jump? will I slam back into the wall? or sail free? Once you have your plan in place and know if you are in sport mode or in watch you skin mode then you can set your mind in the right gear for the climb. If you know that it is totaly safe but you still can't commit to the move then maby its time to take a short test fall. Often this builds confidence and you can go back up and send. Just be certain that you have all your ducks in a row before you take that test fall. To actually go out and practice risky falls is just stoooopid. Much better to practice not falling in risky situations.
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microbarn
Jun 12, 2007, 12:52 PM
Post #35 of 80
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WOOT...we argued so well, that the people against practice falls are now giving pointers on how to do it.
tradmanclimbs wrote: If you know that it is totaly safe but you still can't commit to the move then maby its time to take a short test fall. Often this builds confidence and you can go back up and send. Just be certain that you have all your ducks in a row before you take that test fall. To actually go out and practice risky falls is just stoooopid. Much better to practice not falling in risky situations. Thank you for illustrating the point where practice falls are beneficial.
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tradmanclimbs
Jun 12, 2007, 1:08 PM
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Never said that practice falls don't have a place in climbing. I did however say that it is pretty darn stoopid to send the noobs out with all their shiny new trad toys to practice whipping
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j_ung
Jun 12, 2007, 1:28 PM
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curt wrote: majid_sabet wrote: j_ung wrote: Practice falls, even for beginners on trad gear, can be perfectly safe on the right terrain with adequate back-ups in place. Are beginners capable of judging that terrain and creating those back ups? Depends on the beginner, I suppose. You are wrong Well, I suppose it comes down to what is meant by "with adequate back-ups in place." Still, I tend to agree with you. Practice falling on trad gear is pretty stupid. Curt How about a separate TR, loose enough to allow the gear and lead belay first chance at the catch? I suppose the falling leader could still get popped in the nose, though, by a pulled stopper.
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blueeyedclimber
Jun 12, 2007, 1:35 PM
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microbarn wrote: The only thing that differs between our opinions is that I don't feel anyone should be leading without mastering the objective dangers, gear placement, and risk assessment issues. This is a foolish statement. Show me ONE beginning leader who has mastered objective dangers, gear placement and risk assessment. Beginning leaders should have miles and miles of easy terrain. Easy terrain that they have NO business falling on. It takes years of actually leading to have mastered what you say a beginner should master. Josh
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microbarn
Jun 12, 2007, 2:53 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: microbarn wrote: The only thing that differs between our opinions is that I don't feel anyone should be leading without mastering the objective dangers, gear placement, and risk assessment issues. This is a foolish statement. Show me ONE beginning leader who has mastered objective dangers, gear placement and risk assessment. Beginning leaders should have miles and miles of easy terrain. Easy terrain that they have NO business falling on. It takes years of actually leading to have mastered what you say a beginner should master. Josh The word mastered is subjectively defined. I could take it one step further and claim that only 5% of all climbers have these things mastered. The only thing you and I are doing here is changing the conditions on what 'mastering' the skill is. There is nothing in that list that couldn't be learned on the ground, following, or through discussions of scenarios. Leading does not have some magical power of teaching those issues. If anything the leader is distracted from those things, and the leader has more trouble learning everything at once. The leader should have a thorough understanding of them prior to being put in a situation where their lives depend on a correct evaluation. I am recommending the beginning leader know how to evaluate situations for safety. You on the other hand are recommending they start free-soloing for a few years. Maybe the only thing foolish is that I dignify your response with a post.
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justthemaid
Jun 12, 2007, 2:59 PM
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microbarn wrote: Practice falls let someone work up to that distance. The fear in people's minds could be enough that the long fall is dreaded. The practice falls let them reduce and limit that fear. What if your belayer isn't used to catching sport falls? Do you want there first catch to be a significant whipper? Why not make it smaller whippers first? Finally, you said it yourself. In reply to: if you are afraid to fall, you either won't get better, or your progress will be much slower than it could be. practice falls let you progress or progress faster if your fear is holding you back This is the only post in this entire thread that's worth it's salt. Good replies Microbarn.
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blueeyedclimber
Jun 12, 2007, 3:56 PM
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microbarn wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: microbarn wrote: The only thing that differs between our opinions is that I don't feel anyone should be leading without mastering the objective dangers, gear placement, and risk assessment issues. This is a foolish statement. Show me ONE beginning leader who has mastered objective dangers, gear placement and risk assessment. Beginning leaders should have miles and miles of easy terrain. Easy terrain that they have NO business falling on. It takes years of actually leading to have mastered what you say a beginner should master. Josh The word mastered is subjectively defined. I could take it one step further and claim that only 5% of all climbers have these things mastered. The only thing you and I are doing here is changing the conditions on what 'mastering' the skill is. There is nothing in that list that couldn't be learned on the ground, following, or through discussions of scenarios. Leading does not have some magical power of teaching those issues. If anything the leader is distracted from those things, and the leader has more trouble learning everything at once. The leader should have a thorough understanding of them prior to being put in a situation where their lives depend on a correct evaluation. I am recommending the beginning leader know how to evaluate situations for safety. You on the other hand are recommending they start free-soloing for a few years. Maybe the only thing foolish is that I dignify your response with a post. I stand by my response. A beginning leader should not fall. PERIOD. Ground school does have it's merit, but sooner or later they need to leave the ground and get on the sharp end. They will learn more on their first lead then they will after a year of ground school. And, I am not suggesting that beginning leaders should lead without having a clue. They should have a firm grasp of placing gear, but having a firm grasp and knowing how gear works is a far cry from being able to assess whether a fall is safe. There is more to it than having placed a piece correctly. Even well place gear can fail in certain situations. Josh
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caughtinside
Jun 12, 2007, 4:04 PM
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justthemaid wrote: microbarn wrote: Practice falls let someone work up to that distance. The fear in people's minds could be enough that the long fall is dreaded. The practice falls let them reduce and limit that fear. What if your belayer isn't used to catching sport falls? Do you want there first catch to be a significant whipper? Why not make it smaller whippers first? Finally, you said it yourself. In reply to: if you are afraid to fall, you either won't get better, or your progress will be much slower than it could be. practice falls let you progress or progress faster if your fear is holding you back This is the only post in this entire thread that's worth it's salt. Good replies Microbarn. Mmmm..... nah. I'm sticking with my opinion. Practice falling is silly and unnecessary. And probably the result of having less experienced partners.
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fitzontherocks
Jun 12, 2007, 4:39 PM
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I dunno, I might like Magic Sorbet's thread better. It's got that totally-random-bizarro-otherworldly vibe to it.
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saxfiend
Jun 12, 2007, 4:52 PM
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The most sensible approach to climbing falls and/or falling practice that I'm aware of is Arno Ilgner's Warrior's Way course. Naturally, a lot of people have misconceptions about this. Arno does NOT say that all falls are safe or that you should approach falling casually; he does NOT say beginning climbers should do falling practice (at least not without supervision); and he does NOT advocate this for trad lead falls unless you're very proficient with protection and have plenty of backup. If you climb long enough and/or hard enough, sooner or later you're going to be in a potential fall situation; I believe Arno's position is that you should be prepared -- physically and mentally -- when that situation comes up. In physical terms, you need to know how to use your body so you minimize the possibility of injury (this relates to granite_grrl's concern about flipping upside down). In mental terms, you evaluate the fall consequences and proceed based on that evaluation. If you're in a no-fall situation (your protection is suspect; you're climbing slab; you could deck or hit a ledge; etc.), you either back off or continue climbing knowing that you're taking a risk. If you're in a safe fall situation (bomber protection or a bolt; no obstacles to hit; overhanging rock; etc.), you know the risk is minimal and there's less reason to fear a fall. As far as I'm concerned, the best way to know how to realistically evaluate fall consequences is to practice. And the best way to learn how to practice falling is to have expert supervision (like Arno's), at least to begin with, rather than just go out there and do it.
patto wrote: I like my fear. [snip] My fear of falling keeps me on the rock If you think your fear will keep you from falling, sooner or later you're going to get a really unpleasant surprise.
justthemaid wrote: microbarn wrote: Practice falls let someone work up to that distance. The fear in people's minds could be enough that the long fall is dreaded. The practice falls let them reduce and limit that fear. What if your belayer isn't used to catching sport falls? Do you want there first catch to be a significant whipper? Why not make it smaller whippers first? Finally, you said it yourself. In reply to: if you are afraid to fall, you either won't get better, or your progress will be much slower than it could be. practice falls let you progress or progress faster if your fear is holding you back This is the only post in this entire thread that's worth it's salt. Good replies Microbarn. I agree! JL
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caughtinside
Jun 12, 2007, 4:58 PM
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saxfiend wrote: The most sensible approach to climbing falls and/or falling practice that I'm aware of is Arno Ilgner's Warrior's Way course. Naturally, a lot of people have misconceptions about this. Arno does NOT say that all falls are safe or that you should approach falling casually; he does NOT say beginning climbers should do falling practice (at least not without supervision); and he does NOT advocate this for trad lead falls unless you're very proficient with protection and have plenty of backup. If you climb long enough and/or hard enough, sooner or later you're going to be in a potential fall situation; I believe Arno's position is that you should be prepared -- physically and mentally -- when that situation comes up. In physical terms, you need to know how to use your body so you minimize the possibility of injury (this relates to granite_grrl's concern about flipping upside down). In mental terms, you evaluate the fall consequences and proceed based on that evaluation. If you're in a no-fall situation (your protection is suspect; you're climbing slab; you could deck or hit a ledge; etc.), you either back off or continue climbing knowing that you're taking a risk. If you're in a safe fall situation (bomber protection or a bolt; no obstacles to hit; overhanging rock; etc.), you know the risk is minimal and there's less reason to fear a fall. As far as I'm concerned, the best way to know how to realistically evaluate fall consequences is to practice. And the best way to learn how to practice falling is to have expert supervision (like Arno's), at least to begin with, rather than just go out there and do it. patto wrote: I like my fear. [snip] My fear of falling keeps me on the rock If you think your fear will keep you from falling, sooner or later you're going to get a really unpleasant surprise. justthemaid wrote: microbarn wrote: Practice falls let someone work up to that distance. The fear in people's minds could be enough that the long fall is dreaded. The practice falls let them reduce and limit that fear. What if your belayer isn't used to catching sport falls? Do you want there first catch to be a significant whipper? Why not make it smaller whippers first? Finally, you said it yourself. In reply to: if you are afraid to fall, you either won't get better, or your progress will be much slower than it could be. practice falls let you progress or progress faster if your fear is holding you back This is the only post in this entire thread that's worth it's salt. Good replies Microbarn. I agree! JL See, this subject, like many on the net, is hard to discuss in simple terms. Everyone throws in an extra little factor you have to consider. yeah, climbing is like that. Yeah, it's important. But it makes discussing it a pain in the butt. Expert instruction? I'd say you need a hardish sport route with clean falls and a partner who knows what they're doing. Lead it repeatedly until you fall. But whatever! If you're someone who thinks that a practice fall will help you, by all means go out and do it. It is my humble opinion that climbing to a position with the intent of falling puts you in a different mental state than someone who is going for it and falling. And THAT is what you should be training. I'd put it in the same category as 'mock leading' which IMO is similarly unhelpful.
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saxfiend
Jun 12, 2007, 5:10 PM
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caughtinside wrote: It is my humble opinion that climbing to a position with the intent of falling puts you in a different mental state than someone who is going for it and falling. Obviously, the objective of falling practice is not to train yourself to intend to fall. The objective is to build a physical memory of how to react in a fall situation so it will be automatic when you do fall. I suspect the number of climbers who are born with that ability is probably about the same as the number of people who can ride a bicycle the first time without falling off. JL
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majid_sabet
Jun 12, 2007, 5:22 PM
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patto wrote: I like my fear. I wouldn't call myself a beginner, but i still have a strong fear of falling. I don't see this as and issue that needs to be fixed. I lead trad up to 5.10a and have only taken a couple very short lead falls. My fear of falling keeps me on the rock in situations where had I been top roping I would have come off 5 minutes ago. Adrenaline induced climbing pushes me well beyond my normal limits. This results in a better workout and hopefully makes me a stronger climber. As I see it, the only issue that my fear of falling causes is me to sometimes over protect climbs when it would be easier and quicker to climb on. Two weeks ago while talking to a good friend of mine who has some big wall first ascent to his name told me the same exact thing. You need to have that fear otherwise you become ignorant.
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microbarn
Jun 12, 2007, 5:27 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: patto wrote: I like my fear. I wouldn't call myself a beginner, but i still have a strong fear of falling. I don't see this as and issue that needs to be fixed. I lead trad up to 5.10a and have only taken a couple very short lead falls. My fear of falling keeps me on the rock in situations where had I been top roping I would have come off 5 minutes ago. Adrenaline induced climbing pushes me well beyond my normal limits. This results in a better workout and hopefully makes me a stronger climber. As I see it, the only issue that my fear of falling causes is me to sometimes over protect climbs when it would be easier and quicker to climb on. Two weeks ago while talking to a good friend of mine who has some big wall first ascent to his name told me the same exact thing. You need to have that fear otherwise you become ignorant. Well my friend can beat up your friend, and he agrees with me.
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caughtinside
Jun 12, 2007, 5:41 PM
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saxfiend wrote: caughtinside wrote: It is my humble opinion that climbing to a position with the intent of falling puts you in a different mental state than someone who is going for it and falling. Obviously, the objective of falling practice is not to train yourself to intend to fall. The objective is to build a physical memory of how to react in a fall situation so it will be automatic when you do fall. I suspect the number of climbers who are born with that ability is probably about the same as the number of people who can ride a bicycle the first time without falling off. JL Well, it may not be the objective, but that's the result. Also, I'm not exactly sure what kind of reactions you're talking about in a fall. When I fall, I generally don't have time to think about anything except something really clever like 'oh shit' What you need to do, is be conscious of consequences while you're climbing. Like never having the rope behind your leg. Although, you don't want to grab at anything while you're falling either. I've taken falls where I've basically climbed myself into a spot I couldn't climb out of, and jumped. But most of the time, the fall is over before I know it's really started. Not sure what there is to train about those.
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