Forums: Climbing Information: Accident and Incident Analysis:
Gorge climber injured in 40 ft fall
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for Accident and Incident Analysis

Premier Sponsor:

 
First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next page Last page  View All


climbinwv


Jun 27, 2007, 11:33 AM
Post #76 of 159 (3473 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 18, 2007
Posts: 140

Re: [johanna2430] Gorge climber injured in 40 ft fall [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Gotcha! You said you felt totally uncomfortable using a grigri, but you feel comfortable enough to teach someone how to use it? Secondly, this is NOT a constructive forum...This forum was supposed to be about a climber who fell. There are plenty of belay device forums for your oh so informative discourse. Maybe it's that the grigri is too phallic for you. This would explain your preference for devices with 2 holes, something you are more familiar with.Tongue


johanna2430


Jun 27, 2007, 11:42 AM
Post #77 of 159 (3464 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 27, 2007
Posts: 6

Re: [climbinwv] Gorge climber injured in 40 ft fall [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

You have got to be kidding. You are an idiot. Grow up.


(This post was edited by johanna2430 on Jun 27, 2007, 11:43 AM)


Partner j_ung


Jun 27, 2007, 11:44 AM
Post #78 of 159 (3461 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18689

Re: [markc] Gorge climber injured in 40 ft fall [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

markc wrote:
To check out the progression of belay devices, check out a stitch plate and a figure 8.

But start with hips and hands!


roy_hinkley_jr


Jun 27, 2007, 11:48 AM
Post #79 of 159 (3447 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 8, 2005
Posts: 652

Re: [climbinwv] Gorge climber injured in 40 ft fall [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

climbinwv wrote:
What do these newfangled belay devices do for climbers? Nothing any old-timers with a figure 8 or sticht plate couldn't do 60yrs ago.

Errr, neat trick since the belay plate and figure-8 didn't exist back then. The Sticht wasn't invented until about 1968 and the first figure-8 from Clog dates to around 1972. Before that it was basically the waist belay (or some even older versions).


markc


Jun 27, 2007, 11:50 AM
Post #80 of 159 (3445 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 2475

Re: [j_ung] Gorge climber injured in 40 ft fall [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

j_ung wrote:
markc wrote:
To check out the progression of belay devices, check out a stitch plate and a figure 8.

But start with hips and hands!

You're right that you need to go back to the old hip belay if you want to get in at the ground floor (if you allow that the body is a device). It's good to have in the bag of tricks, but nothing I want to use with regularity!


medicus


Jun 27, 2007, 11:54 AM
Post #81 of 159 (3435 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 1, 2006
Posts: 727

Re: [bent_gate] Gorge climber injured in 40 ft fall [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

bent_gate wrote:
dbrayack wrote:
We ALL do this. Can anyone here say that they've never climbed with someone when they did not know their competence as a belayer?

Wouldn't you rather they belay you with a Gri Gri than an ATC?

Just a thought...

-Dan

It's interesting how everyone has their own equipment bias. Dan, to answer your question honestly, I feel safer with a "just met" belayer who has an ATC rather than a Gri Gri. Just my personal preference, perhaps because it is the device I prefer.

My main bias is if they seem new to the sport. On occasion I have asked a person I've just met specifically what their belay experience is. It probably sounds rude to some, but I feel if someone asked me the question it would be legitimate, and I would never be offended. I know people have to build up the psychological trust to climb well, and so I don't take it personally. But I have also skipped asking people about their belay experience plenty of times. (so what do I know)

Shouldn't people expect to have their belay experience questioned when they belay for a new person? Is there a reason that this is not part of the "Pre-Climb" safety check-list?

How would you feel if I asked about your belay experience at a crag? I really wonder if others feel the same. Are others offended?

I totally would not feel offended, but I would probably feel more comfortable climbing with you. Now if we climbed together a lot and you always asked me... I might get mad. But that's the only way you would offend me there.


Partner j_ung


Jun 27, 2007, 11:56 AM
Post #82 of 159 (3432 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18689

Re: [medicus] Gorge climber injured in 40 ft fall [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Laugh

"Hey, have you belayed a lead climber before?"

"You mean... other than you for the past five years in a row?"


reg


Jun 27, 2007, 11:57 AM
Post #83 of 159 (3431 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 1560

Re: [markc] Gorge climber injured in 40 ft fall [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

markc wrote:
j_ung wrote:
markc wrote:
To check out the progression of belay devices, check out a stitch plate and a figure 8.

But start with hips and hands!

You're right that you need to go back to the old hip belay if you want to get in at the ground floor (if you allow that the body is a device). It's good to have in the bag of tricks, but nothing I want to use with regularity!
also: across the shoulder blades and over the shoulder if belay from the top - be sure to lash the belayer to a tree


climbinwv


Jun 27, 2007, 12:01 PM
Post #84 of 159 (3424 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 18, 2007
Posts: 140

Re: [roy_hinkley_jr] Gorge climber injured in 40 ft fall [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Sorry, I just used the 60yrs b/c that is when joanna decided modern climbing started. I realize that belay devices didn't begin to develop until climbing really started to catch on in the early 70's. My dad swears he has a figure 8 he bought in the summer of love (69'). Before that...clove hitch?


markc


Jun 27, 2007, 12:06 PM
Post #85 of 159 (3410 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 2475

Re: [climbinwv] Gorge climber injured in 40 ft fall [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

climbinwv wrote:
Before that...clove hitch?

That would be a damn slow belay. I'd go with the munter.

Edit to add I have no idea when the munter hitch came into use.


(This post was edited by markc on Jun 27, 2007, 12:09 PM)


Partner cracklover


Jun 27, 2007, 12:10 PM
Post #86 of 159 (3401 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10030

Re: [johanna2430] Gorge climber injured in 40 ft fall [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Johanna, respectfully - stick to what you know. The part about what you sell to newbies actually *is* informative.

By the way, where exactly is it that you work?

Cheers,

GO


iknowfear


Jun 27, 2007, 12:22 PM
Post #87 of 159 (3380 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 8, 2004
Posts: 640

Re: [j_ung] Gorge climber injured in 40 ft fall [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

 
Foot belay - never Forget !!!

scnr ;-)


climbinwv


Jun 27, 2007, 12:25 PM
Post #88 of 159 (3377 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 18, 2007
Posts: 140

Re: [markc] Gorge climber injured in 40 ft fall [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

my bad....that's what i meant....i switch'ed my hitch'ed!Crazy


johanna2430


Jun 27, 2007, 12:26 PM
Post #89 of 159 (3376 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 27, 2007
Posts: 6

Re: [cracklover] Gorge climber injured in 40 ft fall [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

well, thanks markc for all of your comments. After all of this, you bet I will stay away from making broad sweeping statements for the sake of streamlining an argument. Instead, I'll prepare myself with lots of juicy facts from the internet. P.s - thanks to those of you who did the homework for me, and who made otherwise valuable contributions to this thread :)

Cracklover: As to where I work, well. Im sure you can understand how I wouldnt want to disclose that info. The risk of having nutjobs from internet forums coming in to "show me a thing or two" about climbing, is alot more likely than I previously imagined :P


(This post was edited by johanna2430 on Jun 27, 2007, 12:29 PM)


medicus


Jun 27, 2007, 12:28 PM
Post #90 of 159 (3374 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 1, 2006
Posts: 727

Re: [johanna2430] Gorge climber injured in 40 ft fall [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

johanna2430 wrote:
well, thanks markc for your comments. After all of this, you bet I will stay away from making broad sweeping statements for the sake of streamlining an argument. Instead, I'll prepare myself with lots of juicy facts from the internet. P.s - thanks to those of you who did the homework for me, and who made otherwise valuable contributions to this thread :)

As to where I work, well. Im sure you can understand how I wouldnt want to disclose that info. The risk of having nutjobs from internet forums coming in to "show me a thing or two" about climbing, is alot more likely than I previously imagined :P

Lmao


microbarn


Jun 27, 2007, 12:31 PM
Post #91 of 159 (3370 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 12, 2004
Posts: 5920

Re: [markc] Gorge climber injured in 40 ft fall [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

markc wrote:
climbinwv wrote:
Belay devices have not changed that much in 60yrs? WTF!!!! Your lucky my dad can't figure out how to use the internet or you would be getting flamed right now! I showed my dad a Cinch and he just shook his head and pulled an old beat up figure 8 out of his gear closet and made me feel like a loser for spending 70$.

To check out the progression of belay devices, check out a stitch plate and a figure 8. Compare that to the ATC and the Pyramid. Now check out the Jaws, ATC-XP, etc. Then look at the Reverso and ATC-Guide. That's not examining the Gri Gri or the Cinch. You'd be hard-pressed to find one area of climbing where R&D has stagnated. Look at skinny slings and ropes, new cam developments, and ultra-light biners.

Sounds like a challenge....

Tape

underwear (weaker because I know there are wicking underoos now, but generally only alpine climbers use them)


markc


Jun 27, 2007, 1:03 PM
Post #92 of 159 (3331 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 2475

Re: [microbarn] Gorge climber injured in 40 ft fall [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

microbarn wrote:
markc wrote:
climbinwv wrote:
Belay devices have not changed that much in 60yrs? WTF!!!! Your lucky my dad can't figure out how to use the internet or you would be getting flamed right now! I showed my dad a Cinch and he just shook his head and pulled an old beat up figure 8 out of his gear closet and made me feel like a loser for spending 70$.

To check out the progression of belay devices, check out a stitch plate and a figure 8. Compare that to the ATC and the Pyramid. Now check out the Jaws, ATC-XP, etc. Then look at the Reverso and ATC-Guide. That's not examining the Gri Gri or the Cinch. You'd be hard-pressed to find one area of climbing where R&D has stagnated. Look at skinny slings and ropes, new cam developments, and ultra-light biners.

Sounds like a challenge....

Tape

underwear (weaker because I know there are wicking underoos now, but generally only alpine climbers use them)

Yeah, that underwear comment won't hold water! I think you have me on the tape, though. Since it's athletic tape, can we claim the other sports are holding us back?


Partner cracklover


Jun 27, 2007, 1:19 PM
Post #93 of 159 (3311 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10030

Re: [johanna2430] Gorge climber injured in 40 ft fall [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

johanna2430 wrote:
Cracklover: As to where I work, well. Im sure you can understand how I wouldnt want to disclose that info. The risk of having nutjobs from internet forums coming in to "show me a thing or two" about climbing, is alot more likely than I previously imagined :P

Hey, with a name like Cracklover, I've got to be kind of a nutjob, don't I!?

Seriously, though I can understand if you're worried about your privacy. All I meant was that if, for example, you worked at a certain famous shop in New Paltz, that would of course radically bias the gear you sold, as well as the outlook in general.

See, it's a great big world out there, and having a regional bias is fine, until you start using it to refer to universal issues, or to issues where different rules apply. That's something that causes a lot of argument/misunderstanding on the net. I guess it kind of does that everywhere in life, huh?

Cheers!

GO


(This post was edited by cracklover on Jun 27, 2007, 1:20 PM)


havass


Jun 27, 2007, 2:09 PM
Post #94 of 159 (3271 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 2, 2007
Posts: 2

Re: [majid_sabet] Gorge climber injured in 40 ft fall [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I just read in the paper about how a boyscout was also injured at the gorge. Apparently the troop was using one of the access ladders at Endless Wall. To my understanding, the boy slipped and fell a little over 15 ft into a crack. I am not aware of the extent of his injuries
In reply to:


majid_sabet


Jun 27, 2007, 2:22 PM
Post #95 of 159 (3260 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 8363

Re: [havass] Gorge climber injured in 40 ft fall [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

havass wrote:
I just read in the paper about how a boyscout was also injured at the gorge. Apparently the troop was using one of the access ladders at Endless Wall. To my understanding, the boy slipped and fell a little over 15 ft into a crack. I am not aware of the extent of his injuries
In reply to:

He felt 30 feet in two steps but not by climbing or bouldering

Guys please stay within topic or I will ask MODS to ban you all.


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 27, 2007, 2:22 PM)


rockrat512


Jun 27, 2007, 2:48 PM
Post #96 of 159 (3243 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 26, 2003
Posts: 34

Re: [johanna2430] Gorge climber injured in 40 ft fall [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

to quote johanna2430

"I personally dont know even one single advanced climber, trad or sport, that uses a Gri Gri for their main belaying device. And I work and live in one of the best climbing areas on the east coast. I see alot of old climbers and new climbers every day. Maybe its just that way where I live, and not so in other places. Ill never really know"

Wow..it took this post to bring me out of the wood work. I agree with all of the posters who suggest that its not device failure but human failure. One should be exposed to a myriad of devices.. but use what they are most comfortable with and applicable to a given situation. Ive been climbing for 36 years and I stay pretty light during climbing season. When I started it was with a hip belay and I held some whips with much heavier climbers and it wasn't fun. When Sticht plates came along I embraced that technology once I got over initial concerns, and onward through tube styles to the Gri-gri.The Gri-gri remains my device of choice for most any situation other than multi-pitch where I dont dont want to carry an additional device for descent. Johanna, I'm guessing you work near the Gunks and I could possibly see where the Gri-gri hasnt taken hold given its dearth of sport climbs but the inference that "advanced climbers" dont use Gri-gris is a pretty broad statement and smacks of eliteism..I climb with older very experienced climbers (some of us still bumbling up 13s
as we enter our "back 50") as well as strong young folks and it boils down to preference...but the vast majority actually have embraced the Gri-gri. A Gri-gri or other auto locker very well may have salvaged a very sad situation here..maybe not...however the debate over equipment is all mental masturbation..WHATEVER someone chooses to use to belay, it is their responsibility to be competent in its use or defer belaying until they are and its the leaders ultimate responsibility to know a little bit about whom they are trusting their life to.


curator


Jun 27, 2007, 2:54 PM
Post #97 of 159 (3238 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 29, 2005
Posts: 91

Re: [j_ung] Gorge climber injured in 40 ft fall [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

All right Jay, it's on. you and me, greenpiece. You belay, I take the whip ten times onto a grigri with five feet of slack between it and your brakehand. I aint scared. If at any time it fails and your brakehand becomes a factor in catching my skinny carcass....I'll eat my hat. We can even pack that bitch with dirt and use a 9.0 mil line. Then we'll try it with an atc and see what happens. uhhhh.... Ok I'm kidding about the atc part. Lets keep this lighthearted and productive. Let me backpedal a little. An inexperienced belayer is a timebomb and as you said "an array of mistakes was waiting to occur". Climbing is inherently dangerous and there are always an array of mistakes waiting to occur. All I'm trying to drive home at this point is that in my opinion the grigri adds one more element of safety. let's go ahead and say "in an experienced belayers hands". Of course if you grab the load strand the cam on the grigri may not lock but it certainly won't lock on an atc. O% chance. This incident in particular...inexperienced belayer using atc doesn't catch lead fall. Would there have been a greater chance of catching that fall with a grig? I think 100% personally but I guess we'll have to settle for "a greater chance". And what we're trying to do is stack the odds in our favor. I would like to hear from the belayer in this scenario. It's possible that she's been following along in utter disgust at our desensitization to this horrible accident. Would she have liked a little mechanical advantage to help catch the whip? How about the guy in the hospital? So the response to that is "well lots of people get dropped by grigri's" lets ask them as well. I'm guessing that there are lots of atc dropped people thinking "man, I wish they had had a grigri", and very few people dropped by grigri's thinking "man, I wish they had had an atc". If you get dropped by a grigri the same scenario could have happened with an atc. if you hold the grigri wide open with no brakehand the climber decks, no brakehand with an atc the climber decks. same same. The grigri is essentially an atc with a moving cam. at the core of the grig is an atc. It just happens to lock up when it gets jerked. If we took a grigri and a torch welder and welded that cam arm to the housing we'd be left with an atc. granted it would run a bit smooth, not as much friction as these new toothy devices, but essentially we'd have an atc. so with equivalent amount of training, (there is a way to feed slack through the grigri without taking off the brakehand, similar to an atc) we can add an element of safety to climbing. Whatever, I'm done. I hate this soapbox feeling. Jay and I can talk about this some time at the crag when he's catching my ten whips. i'm sure we'll talk and laugh and agree to disagree. And Jay, I very much respect your opinions and have enjoyed playing devil's advocate.


Partner j_ung


Jun 27, 2007, 3:04 PM
Post #98 of 159 (3230 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18689

Re: [curator] Gorge climber injured in 40 ft fall [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

curator wrote:
All right Jay, it's on. you and me, greenpiece. You belay, I take the whip ten times onto a grigri with five feet of slack between it and your brakehand. I aint scared. If at any time it fails and your brakehand becomes a factor in catching my skinny carcass....I'll eat my hat.

LaughLaugh

Wait... what kind of hat is it?

Right back atcha on the respect thing, Mikey. Whip ten times on anything and I got your back. Smile


curator


Jun 27, 2007, 3:16 PM
Post #99 of 159 (3224 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 29, 2005
Posts: 91

Re: [rockrat512] Gorge climber injured in 40 ft fall [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

rockrat, high five. I know I said I'd be gone but i just read this and felt like my head would explode....Johanna 2430 "I personally don't know even one single advanced climber, trad or sport, that uses a grigri for their main belaying device." Uhhhhh.....Whether we like it or not, advanced climbers use grigri's almost one hundred percent. Locals here at the new....everyone I climb with uses a grigri and I think we're climbing "advanced" routes. Trad and sport. I've been to nearly every major climbing destination in the states and some outside and seen grigris outnumber atc's three to one. And if you think that me and the people I see at the crag aren't "advanced" enough. Get on youtube and watch the hundreds of movies starring Chris Sharma, David Graham, Tommy Caldwell, climbing sport and trad. Rumney or el cap. I challenge you to find an atc in the picture. Jesus Christ, I have to get out of here.


medicus


Jun 27, 2007, 3:57 PM
Post #100 of 159 (3197 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 1, 2006
Posts: 727

Re: [curator] Gorge climber injured in 40 ft fall [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

"I think 100% personally"

This is where the problem with the gri gri is... I own a gri gri, I use a gri gri, but I do not rely on the gri gri locking mechanism 100%. I still brake on a gri gri like I would with my ATC. For a first time belayer, I prefer to teach on the ATC, develop the habit of keeping a hand on the break all the time, then transitioning into the gri gri if they want to. That way, less reliance is placed on the devices locking mechanism, and the few times that the gri gri doesn't lock, the belayer will hopefully be experienced enough to know that they can still brake on it like an ATC. I just personally think it teaches better belay habits for a beginner to learn on the ATC than transition if s/he feels it is appropriate. I think I developed this philosophy about the gri gri, because I watched an inexperienced belayer drop a friend a good 25 feet or so before she finally released the lever and the rope was able to catch the falling climber. At this point, the rope stretch actually allowed him to smack the ground, and then it kind of pulled him up a bit to where he was no longer on the ground. No one got hurt, but I got to see the whole inexperienced issue factor into the barely avoided fall. I think it is far to easy to have more confidence in the gri gri than the atc...and so teaching practices are often more relaxed with the gri gri. This is what happened with the nearly dropped climber. Lol, his name is Jay actually too... but he is not on this forum, so don't confuse that with the many jay's on here. I think I feel more comfortable with a belayer who is at least competent enough to use an ATC. If the belayer is not competent enough to use the ATC, I don't really want to climb with him/her using a gri gri.

I think it just worries me that so many people put SO much trust into the gri gri, and not necessarily using common sense with belay techniques.

Another friend of mine (same group that taught the girl to belay with the gri gri) was doing a simul. rap. with a gri gri. The route was slightly overhanging for its entire 80 foot length. Near the top when he had just gone over the edge his foot got caught in a crack. Instead of just releasing the lever he panicked and ended up being held upside down by his foot in the crack. It's the simple things in easy to resolve situations where someone that has really only used gri gri just panics and ends up getting hurt or hurting someone else.

The ATC by all means is not a "fail proof" device, and it's obvious. With my personal experiences though, people who learn with the ATC are more attentive and keep better habits when learning. The gri gri just allows sloppy technique early on that when a situation where panic can step in, the established braking associated with the ATC could prevent such stories.

I think it's this "fail proof" attitude that is given to the gri gri that ends up getting people hurt. Establishing a belief that that no matter what the belayer is personally responsible for keeping a climber from being dropped is much easier on the ATC than it is the gri gri because, "Hey it's alright the gri gri will catch them if anything goes wrong. Just make sure you let go of everything and it will do all the work for you!" You cannot say that in any shape way or form with the ATC... because it WILL not catch the climber if the user does not use it properly. I think the ATC just teaches the proper mind set much easier than a gri gri will.

All that being said, I'll reiterate; I belay with both and climb with the rope down below attached to both.


(This post was edited by medicus on Jun 27, 2007, 4:05 PM)

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Climbing Information : Accident and Incident Analysis

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?
$17.95 (10% off)
$57.56 (10% off)
$8.96 (10% off)
$174.56 (10% off)



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook