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cracklover
Aug 22, 2007, 4:45 PM
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Hi folks, I'm not much of a sport climber, but I do enjoy it, and I'd like to get stronger. I'm curious to learn a bit about "projecting" from those of you who do sport climb more seriously. At the area I frequent (Rumney), the hardest climbs I usually get on are 5.11c. I can typically redpoint any of them in one to three tries. So does this mean that I ought to be able to start projecting 12s? So far, I've tried three twelves there, all in the 12a/b range. One, called Flesh For Lulu I've tried for about three or four years now, usually giving it a couple burns a year. At my best, I've one-hung it once or twice. Another, called Orangahang I was only on once, and I hang-dogged my way up it. A third, called Social Outcast I one-hung on my second try, and redpointed on my third try. That's the only 12 I've ever redpointed, and who knows, it's probably soft for the grade. So, what do you think. If I seriously projected 12s, should I be able to start nailing them, one after another, or am I still too weak, and will just destroy my tendons if I try? Oh, if it matters, the hardest I've bouldered is V4. GO
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coastal_climber
Aug 22, 2007, 4:52 PM
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Why worry if your climbing profile says you can do 12a? And 10c on trad isn't too bad. Probably endurance, so maybe try working on that. >Cam
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caughtinside
Aug 22, 2007, 5:04 PM
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Piece of cake man! You can totally do it! It just sounds like you have to develop a redpointing mentality, ie, you're ready willing and able to put in more time working your project, than doing more of a variety of climbs. But, if you're redpointing .11c on two or three attempts, .12- should go down for you fairly quickly as well. A best case scenario would be to have a partner projecting the same routes, that way you can trade beta, psych each other up, and hang draws. Another good situation would be to have your partner also working climbs nearby, but maybe not the same one as you. I don't think you'll destroy your tendons as long as you don't project super tweaky stuff. But pick projects that are comfortable for you, and stay off things that hurt. Work hard at remembering sequences, even easy ones, so that you save energy for cruxes. Find the rests! Send!
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dbrayack
Aug 22, 2007, 5:04 PM
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I was at Rumney Once, there's a gimme 12a or b there called Pump up the Volume or something at the 5.7 (or 5.8) crag....pretty much a boulder problem. Go send it and let us know!
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cracklover
Aug 22, 2007, 5:13 PM
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coastal_climber wrote: Why worry if your climbing profile says you can do 12a? Well, I figure that I should put my hardest redpoint for my sport leading ability. Wheras, for my trad leading, it makes more sense to me to put a number where I'm fairly sure I can get up it without making a big mess. What do you think those profile numbers should represent? And, back on topic, do you have any thoughts on my question?
In reply to: And 10c on trad isn't too bad. Probably endurance, so maybe try working on that. >Cam I don't get it. Why do you think my endurance is poor, if my hardest boulder problem is about the same as my hardest sport lead? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't get it? GO
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jakedatc
Aug 22, 2007, 5:13 PM
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Gabe. i'll trade you some boulder power for a bit of endurance :) What i've done so far is pick routes that seem to fit my style and work from there.. I sent social which is just steep with big holds.. i'm close on Things which is short and bouldery. I've been told Luau is another good one to get on when i get on something new and hard i tend to go until i fall.. then work the rest bolt to bolt trying to figure out the sequences. you could take it one step more and do the whole thing bolt to bolt to save energy and work each section somewhat rested. I don't know how you train indoors so i'm not sure where the problem is coming from. I bouldered up to v7 this year and know my weakness is endurance because once i rest on a bolt for a bit i can get back on and make the moves.. just a matter of controlling the pump. i also agree with getting on routes with someone.. sharing beta and getting psyched up helps alot. Also having someone that knows the moves be able to yell beta and encouragement when you need it is helpful .
(This post was edited by jakedatc on Aug 22, 2007, 5:23 PM)
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cracklover
Aug 22, 2007, 5:18 PM
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caughtinside wrote: Piece of cake man! You can totally do it! Ya think? Huh. I was figuring I'd need to work some more hard 11s before I should try it this season, but maybe I'm wrong.
In reply to: It just sounds like you have to develop a redpointing mentality, ie, you're ready willing and able to put in more time working your project, than doing more of a variety of climbs. So, does that mean I should find one project and stick to it?
In reply to: But, if you're redpointing .11c on two or three attempts, .12- should go down for you fairly quickly as well. Hmm. It sure feels like a big jump from 11c to 12- to me. But maybe I'm just psyching myself out.
In reply to: A best case scenario would be to have a partner projecting the same routes, that way you can trade beta, psych each other up, and hang draws. Another good situation would be to have your partner also working climbs nearby, but maybe not the same one as you. Definitely!
In reply to: I don't think you'll destroy your tendons as long as you don't project super tweaky stuff. But pick projects that are comfortable for you, and stay off things that hurt. I don't really know what you mean by this. When I'm climbing at my limit, giving it all, I just expect things to get tweaked.
In reply to: Work hard at remembering sequences, even easy ones, so that you save energy for cruxes. Find the rests! Definitely. Will do. GO
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cracklover
Aug 22, 2007, 5:22 PM
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jakedatc wrote: Gabe. i'll trade you some boulder power for a bit of endurance :) What i've done so far is pick routes that seem to fit my style and work from there.. I sent social which is just steep with big holds.. i'm close on Things which is short and bouldery. I've been told Luau is another good one to get on Okay, well I think I have reasonable power and endurance, okay footwork, and only so-so crimp strength. So, if I've done Social already, what else? DBRayack mentioned Pump up the Volume - is that a good choice, ya think? GO
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caughtinside
Aug 22, 2007, 5:33 PM
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cracklover wrote: caughtinside wrote: Piece of cake man! You can totally do it! Ya think? Huh. I was figuring I'd need to work some more hard 11s before I should try it this season, but maybe I'm wrong. In reply to: It just sounds like you have to develop a redpointing mentality, ie, you're ready willing and able to put in more time working your project, than doing more of a variety of climbs. So, does that mean I should find one project and stick to it? In reply to: But, if you're redpointing .11c on two or three attempts, .12- should go down for you fairly quickly as well. Hmm. It sure feels like a big jump from 11c to 12- to me. But maybe I'm just psyching myself out. In reply to: A best case scenario would be to have a partner projecting the same routes, that way you can trade beta, psych each other up, and hang draws. Another good situation would be to have your partner also working climbs nearby, but maybe not the same one as you. Definitely! In reply to: I don't think you'll destroy your tendons as long as you don't project super tweaky stuff. But pick projects that are comfortable for you, and stay off things that hurt. I don't really know what you mean by this. When I'm climbing at my limit, giving it all, I just expect things to get tweaked. In reply to: Work hard at remembering sequences, even easy ones, so that you save energy for cruxes. Find the rests! Definitely. Will do. GO Yeah, pick a project and stick with it. Maaaybe two projects. Try to give your project three burns a visit. They don't all have to be redpoint burns though. If you dog it once and still don't feel like you have the moves or sequences, just dog it again. Sit on the same bolt and work the sections that trouble you. yeah, .11c to .12 can be a big jump... or it can be a single move! I've done a couple .12s that are just .10s with a 4 move v3 in the middle. WHat I meant with the tweaky comment was a little vague... I find some moves to be, well, painful. I'm not talking about hard crimps. Some moves are full body physical, or really require shoulder cranking. I abandoned a .12b I was close to sending because I was worried I'd wreck my rotator cuff on the crux, a huge stab to a crappy gaston overhead, where my weight fell almost completely onto my arm and shoulder. Just felt like trouble so I moved on. Some holds just make my hands throb. I try to avoid that as well. Three, maybe four burns per visit. And remember, the first lesson in sport climbing is getting someone else to hang your draws.
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jakedatc
Aug 22, 2007, 5:58 PM
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my friend Tim's girlfriend Tiffany sent Pump up th Volume 12b as her first .12.. it's short-ish, crimpy and pumpy at the top from what i can gather. I haven't been on it yet to see HOW crimpy it is.. but you can throw a top rope on it from either Romancing the stone or Sky Pilot (piece of cake 11b by the way.. like. flash-able) Luau at waimea (2 routes left of Flyin') is supposedly a good start to .12's as is Pretzel Logic at Bonsai Technosurfing almost always has draws on it so it's easy to work without penalty.. has a few rests between the cruxes if you're not hung up on 5.12 there are some hard, interesting .11's out there too.. Black Mamba, Buried treasure (all bolted now with jams at the top.. oo crack), among others
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c4c
Aug 22, 2007, 6:09 PM
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Sounds to me like we need to have a fall ruckus gathering to get a positive vibe going and help Gabe send 5.12.
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cracklover
Aug 22, 2007, 7:23 PM
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Okay, so the unanimous consensus thus far seems to be: Yes, you definitely can, but route choice is important, too. Okay, I'll buy that, but I'm going to keep an eye on my tendons. If I feel anything go *pop*, I'll know it was too soon. :/ GO
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jakedatc
Aug 22, 2007, 7:45 PM
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well if you want things that are less fingery then you gotta think steep. The Lower Vadar stuff is all pretty powerful and bouldery though Jedi Mind tricks is supposedly reasonable. Get back on Orangahang?
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jeapord
Aug 22, 2007, 7:50 PM
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I've only bouldered V4/5 myself and have gone from 11d to 12d in 3 months. I could have redpointed 12 a year ago, but going through the grades and developing technique, especially 11's, was very important. I haven't really noticed that I needed to be a lot stronger to do 12's, but just had to have really good technique. I'm sure you can redpoint 12, but you should do a handfull of 11c's and 11d's IMO.
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djride
Aug 22, 2007, 8:07 PM
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I am a big believer that the best way to climb 5.12 is to climb 5.12 - and it sounds like you are doing that already. So get your ass on a 5.12 c/d and work it til you can do it. Then go jog up a 5.12 a. You may also wish to read a book called "The Rock Warriors Way" I found it a bit new age-ish, but when I looked past that part it has really helped me upgrade my sending capacity. It is about mental toughness for climbers.
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cracklover
Aug 22, 2007, 8:40 PM
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Jake - yeah, maybe Orangahang? Seems like I've got two opposite suggestions here:
jeapord wrote: I've only bouldered V4/5 myself and have gone from 11d to 12d in 3 months. I could have redpointed 12 a year ago, but going through the grades and developing technique, especially 11's, was very important. I haven't really noticed that I needed to be a lot stronger to do 12's, but just had to have really good technique. I'm sure you can redpoint 12, but you should do a handfull of 11c's and 11d's IMO. That kind of progress certainly sounds impressive. Here's the other vantage point:
djride wrote: I am a big believer that the best way to climb 5.12 is to climb 5.12 - and it sounds like you are doing that already. So get your ass on a 5.12 c/d and work it til you can do it. Then go jog up a 5.12 a. Looking through my climbing log, it seems that aside from the one 12- I did last season, the hardest I've redpointed is 11c, and since 2003, I've done only four at that level. So, does that suggest that I should still be trying to hone my 11+ technique? GO
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jeapord
Aug 22, 2007, 8:50 PM
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If I were you I would find a 12 project and work those 11's in between. Technique will get you a long way. If you get that 12 in 5 tries or less you could just start climbing 12's. As soon as it cools off I'm getting on all the 11's I haven't done at my home crag b/c they are in the sun right now, even though I'm breaking into 13 now.
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jakedatc
Aug 22, 2007, 9:06 PM
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i don't think it's a simple technique, endurance, route, grade etc.. its the whole combo and working the moves out so you know where, when, how etc bouldering level and route level just don't cross over very well. like i said. ive climbed 1 v7 and a handful of v6s, can do laps on certain v4's but i've only sent one .12a and am close on another. Gabe's only done v4 and has sent a much harder IMO .12 (flesh) and the same .12 i sent (social) I stopped concentrating on 5.12 and have moved onto looking at cool routes that are recommended. Alot of them are .11's i overlooked while trying to get that first .12 (and so far have felt harder than Social outcast)
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cracklover
Aug 22, 2007, 9:21 PM
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jakedatc wrote: Gabe's only done v4 and has sent a much harder IMO .12 (flesh) Nope, I've never sent Flesh
In reply to: and the same .12 i sent (social) Which, again, is probably soft for 12. GO
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jh_angel
Aug 22, 2007, 9:27 PM
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I'm just getting into the .12's at Rumney myself and I have to agree with the others that they will go, but keep climbing the .11's too. I tend to do one or two warm-ups, hit an easy .11 then try a burn (or two, if I don't send) on the .12 of my choice then go do another .11 or hard .10 after a good rest.
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jt512
Aug 22, 2007, 10:50 PM
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cracklover wrote: At the area I frequent (Rumney), the hardest climbs I usually get on are 5.11c. I can typically redpoint any of them in one to three tries. So does this mean that I ought to be able to start projecting 12s? So far, I've tried three twelves there, all in the 12a/b range [and rp'ed one of them, on third try]. If I seriously projected 12s, should I be able to start nailing them, one after another, or am I still too weak, and will just destroy my tendons if I try? Most of what I'm going to say on this subject, I've borrowed/stolen/learned from Douglas/Fluxus/Self-Coached Climber (SCC). If your goal is to become solid at redpointing a new grade, your best approach is to use a route pyramid. SCC suggests that the pyramid should be composed of 4 tiers of 8, 4, 2, and 1 route, respectively. Each tier is one letter grade higher than the tier below it. The first step is determining what grade the base tier should be. This should generally be the hardest grade you can consistently redpoint in 4 or fewer tries, or the lowest grade at which you have fewer than 8 redpoints. Judging from what you've written and from the route graph in your profile, it appears that, using either criterion, your base should be 5.11c. Once you have determined your base grade, assemble a list of all the routes you've redpointed (or better) in the last 12 months that are at your base grade or higher, and start filling your pyramid in with those routes. Let's say that in the past 12 months, you've redpointed 4 11c's, 1 11d, no 12a's, and 1 12b. You should now redpoint, in strict order, 4 more 11c's (to make a total of 8) and 3 more 11d's (to make a total of 4). Since you already have the 1 12b you need, but no 12a's, I suggest that you count your 12b redpoint as a 12a, so you would then need 1 more 12a, and another 12b to complete your pyramid. Alternatively, since your 12b was about a year ago, you could leave it off your pyramid, and redpoint 2 12a's and another 12b. Once you've completed your pyramid, you start a new pyramid with a base one letter grade harder than the base of your previous pyramid, and you again fill it in with routes you've done in the past 12 months. These will come from your previous pyramid. That is, you'll already have 4 11d's, 2 12a's, and 1 12b in your new pyramid, and so, to complete your new pyramid, you will redpoint 4 more 11d's, 2 more 12a's, 1 more 12b, and 1 12c. You then begin a 3rd pyramid whose base is 12a, and so on. To get your redpoints as fast as possible you need to use efficient tactics. Many trad climbers have a tendency to treat every burn on a project as a redpoint attempt. This is rarely an efficient redpoint tactic, even on easy redpoints. Instead, hangdog as often as necessary to learn the moves on the route cold. Your goal should be to redpoint the route using the most efficient moves and sequences, not just scraping your way to the anchors. Above all, do not let yourself get pumped on your learning burns, because you cannot learn moves well while your muscles are fatigued. Additionally, try to go all the way to the anchors on every burn, even if you think the high moves are easy. On redpoint, you will be fatigued toward the end of the climb, and so you will have to know those moves especially well to succeed. Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Aug 22, 2007, 10:50 PM)
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climbsomething
Aug 22, 2007, 10:53 PM
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Can I second oldish-skool "5.6" trad? I totally think you can climb 5.12, btw.
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mrksprague
Aug 22, 2007, 11:33 PM
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Crack, it seems to me you are analyzing this too much. After a good warmup, just get on a 12 that looks fun and try it out. For the most efficiency, if you are sure that it is going to take some work, then I recommend that you don't try to go as high as you can on the first go. It will just pump you out for working the moves. Some people will think it is silly, but on my hardest redpoints, I first worked the routes on TR, unless they were really steep, where it is less practical. Ideally you would get a friend to put the rope up for you or you can go bolt to bolt and stick clip through the cruxes and then work the route from the top down. Once you figure out all the moves, you can piece together longer sections starting from lower and lower points. The idea is to have the top, where you will be the most pumped, dialed in the most so you can still do the moves when you are tired. Usually I find that 3 or 4 at max sessions on a route per day works best. You want to be climbing at your best while you are figuring out the moves and not be flailing around with bad technique because you are fatigued. I have found that when my climbing ability goes up, it often has jumped a few letter grades suddenly after plateauing for a while, so don't be worried about getting on a sport climb that is quite a bit harder than anything you have been on before. Sometimes it is just the thing to psych you up produce a breakthrough. That being said, a good base is good to jump from. There are a bunch of good 11c and ds at Rumney. RetroSpade at New Wave has three distinct interesting cruxes that will prepare you for the harder moves of a 12. Some harder 11ds that are high quality are The Crusher, Peanutman and Stone Temple Pilot. Pulse is a good short one at the Kennel Wall. For first 12s I would recommend Social, Captain Hook, Things as They are Now, Flesh and Luau.
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mrksprague
Aug 22, 2007, 11:39 PM
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I somehow missed Jay's post on my first read through. Very good advice there. By the way, to get ultimately better as a climber, you need to work on your weaknesses not on the things that come easy.
(This post was edited by mrksprague on Aug 22, 2007, 11:42 PM)
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coastal_climber
Aug 23, 2007, 4:02 AM
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cracklover wrote: ...What do you think those profile numbers should represent?... The average, a grade you can do ground up, solid.
cracklover wrote: ...I don't get it. Why do you think my endurance is poor, if my hardest boulder problem is about the same as my hardest sport lead? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't get it?... What does bouldering have to do with this? Bouldering is technique, climbing is technique and endurance/strength. (There was a thread about this earlier). If you have enough stamina, you should be able to smoothly go through a route, working the moves, and taking advantages of rests & such. We've all seen it done. >Cam
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