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Partner angry


Sep 11, 2007, 9:56 AM
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Many many times I've come out against tick marks. Everyone says that it's fine as long as they get brushed off.

Not a bad arguement except that no-one ever brushes them off. In my life, I've never seen a tick mark brushed off by someone who placed one.

My latest example, Pervertical Sanctuary 10c, Longs Peak. It's got more ticks than the Black Canyon in the spring. Not a chalky hold mind you, a big thick tick on every single nub or edge. Ticked like a gym climb.

This is on a 10c (possibly up to 11a depending on who you ask) that doesn't have a hidden or devious move anywhere on it. I'm relatively certain that these ticks were put there by a big name climber who soloed the route last week. Fine, tick the route to keep your career alive (god knows your husband's is in the toilet) but rap the fucking thing and clean up your mess. You are a pro climber, you've got nothing but time. It's not like you don't have the extra half day to tidy up.

If it's not you, sorry. Doesn't change my point, don't tick a route you can't or won't clean.


drjghl


Sep 11, 2007, 10:32 AM
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Why do climber's place chalk on features to locate them? This mindset is kind of odd to me. Kind of transforms a climb into a gym route and who wants that.

Working a route, going up and down, searching for holds, resting and firing a sequence is one of the great pleasures of climbing. Putting pieces of tape on features (oh I mean ticking features) seems to be a mindset that hopefully does not continue to grow and eventually fades away into oblivion.


Partner angry


Sep 11, 2007, 10:34 AM
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drjghl wrote:
Putting pieces of tape on features (oh I mean ticking features) seems to be a mindset that hopefully does not continue to grow and eventually fades away into oblivion.

It's getting more prevalent and the climbers doing it are not cleaning up after themselves.


jt512


Sep 11, 2007, 10:35 AM
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drjghl wrote:
Why do climber's place chalk on features to locate them?

Why do climber's place chalk on features? To locate them.

Jay


Partner cracklover


Sep 11, 2007, 10:42 AM
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Oh, but how will my clients ever find their way without tic marks? I guess I'll have to just yell more and louder to help them out on every move.

GO


Partner angry


Sep 11, 2007, 11:09 AM
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jt512 wrote:
drjghl wrote:
Why do climber's place chalk on features to locate them?

Why do climber's place chalk on features? To locate them.

Jay


How would one locate the hold in order to tick it in the first place then? There must be a way to see a hold without a tickmark on it.


bent_gate


Sep 11, 2007, 11:54 AM
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Chalk is an eyesore. Even without tick marks, there is still way too much chalk that is left behind by climbers and not brushed off. People seem to think that leave no trace doesn't apply to this.

The only chalk marks that should be left behind are "x"s on deathblocks. And that is a safety issue.

What percent of climbers give a crap about this? Probably about 20%


CinnamonJohnson


Sep 11, 2007, 11:59 AM
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Who is the big name climber?


knieveltech


Sep 11, 2007, 12:02 PM
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CinnamonJohnson wrote:
Who is the big name climber?

No doubt. Inquiring minds (read bored at work) want to know! Name drop! Name drop! Name drop!


Partner angry


Sep 11, 2007, 12:08 PM
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Read my original post nice and slowly, it's no mystery.


dingus


Sep 11, 2007, 12:09 PM
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You should be able to work it out with the not-so-subtle hints Angry sprinkled over his post, hehe.

DMT


wonderwoman


Sep 11, 2007, 12:10 PM
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knieveltech wrote:
CinnamonJohnson wrote:
Who is the big name climber?

No doubt. Inquiring minds (read bored at work) want to know! Name drop! Name drop! Name drop!

Here's a hint:
angry wrote:
Fine, tick the route to keep your career alive (god knows your husband's is in the toilet)


(This post was edited by wonderwoman on Sep 11, 2007, 12:12 PM)


knieveltech


Sep 11, 2007, 12:16 PM
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angry wrote:
Read my original post nice and slowly, it's no mystery.

Yeah I figured as much. Sadly I'm not up to speed on elite climber circles and was hoping you'd just toss it out there for the cheap seats. I suppose I could get off my ass and figure it out myself though.

Edited to add:

Gotcha. Nothing a quick google session couldn't put to rights.


(This post was edited by knieveltech on Sep 11, 2007, 12:19 PM)


Partner j_ung


Sep 11, 2007, 12:19 PM
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Steph Davis

(Not that I'm accusing her of anything. I'm just saying that's who angry's referring to.)


Partner angry


Sep 11, 2007, 12:19 PM
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I can't help you then. Maybe it wasn't her, the coincidence though makes me think that things are "not all roses".


knieveltech


Sep 11, 2007, 12:20 PM
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j_ung wrote:
Steph Davis

(Not that I'm accusing her of anything. I'm just saying that's who angry's referring to.)

Roger that. Looks like googling "dean potter's wife" was the correct guess on my part.


campo


Sep 11, 2007, 12:25 PM
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Dean Potter's career is in the toilet? Did I miss something in the last ten years? Laugh


Partner angry


Sep 11, 2007, 12:29 PM
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Start here

http://www.soundclick.com/...9&q=lo&ref=2

Then go here

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...tter%20odub;#1577558

And finish here

http://www.soundclick.com/...9&q=hi&ref=2

Enjoy


camhead


Sep 11, 2007, 12:38 PM
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well, shit.

the r&i photo of Dean Potter's new testpiece at Indian Creek contained more than a dozen tick marks within eight feet of climbing.

if you want to use chalk or tick in the desert, fine. just clean up your damn mess. it's really quite simple.



*more pro-climbers should start going chalkless when crack climbing, just to set an example.


Partner cracklover


Sep 11, 2007, 12:51 PM
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camhead wrote:
well, shit.

the r&i photo of Dean Potter's new testpiece at Indian Creek contained more than a dozen tick marks within eight feet of climbing.

if you want to use chalk or tick in the desert, fine. just clean up your damn mess. it's really quite simple.

I understand how he'd be ticking the route. It's a testpiece. He's hanging on it a lot.

But I don't get why Angry would assume that Steph would be making tic marks on a free solo. I've not done a lot of soloing, but when I have, I don't spend a lot of time hanging out, marking holds. Not saying she did or didn't, or making any judgment about either - just not clear on why a free-soloist would be a likely candidate to point the finger at? Seems like a free soloist would be the least likely, no?

GO


Partner cracklover


Sep 11, 2007, 12:54 PM
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And now that I think of it, camhead, what makes you think he didn't clean it up afterward? If the photo was of Dean working the route, it makes sense he might be ticking it with the intent of cleaning it after, no?

GO


zeke_sf


Sep 11, 2007, 1:03 PM
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Dammit, Angry! You almost made me listen to Odub. Fortunately, my work computer's volume is down.


Partner angry


Sep 11, 2007, 1:10 PM
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I assume it was her because of the route itself.

Most people don't just hang out and get 10c (or 11a) ruthlessly wired at 13,000+ feet. They get on the route and climb on. If they fall or take, no biggie, keep moving cause the lightning could come any time. I highly doubt that the average climber (and this is an average climbers route) would lower off a pitch, tick it up, and try to resend it. This is alpine.

Now imagine you want to solo this route and have all the time in the world. Go up there one day with a partner and rehearse the moves, not because it's hard but because it's for a solo and you don't want to screw up. Pro's are chalk fucking crazy and even worse with ticks, so bam the route get ticked up. She comes back the next day with the solo.

Your logic follows if it were an onsight free solo or an impromtu thing. That may have been the case and I may be pointing at the wrong person, given the situation, I bet I'm not.


sed


Sep 11, 2007, 1:27 PM
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i agreed tix suck. there's so much talk about how unsightley bolts are and yet tick marks and chalk are rarely questioned, accepted as part of the sport. I don't know why poeple use so much of it, seems like most climbers just chalk up so they have something to focus on when they are freaking out. It's not magic dust and for the average 5.10 climber is rarely necessary.
S


camhead


Sep 11, 2007, 1:45 PM
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cracklover wrote:
And now that I think of it, camhead, what makes you think he didn't clean it up afterward? If the photo was of Dean working the route, it makes sense he might be ticking it with the intent of cleaning it after, no?

GO

you're right, Gabe.

tell you what, I'll hike up to hong Kong Phooey next week with a pair of binocs and let you know whether he cleaned the ticks or not.

care to make any predictions?


Partner cracklover


Sep 11, 2007, 1:56 PM
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camhead wrote:
cracklover wrote:
And now that I think of it, camhead, what makes you think he didn't clean it up afterward? If the photo was of Dean working the route, it makes sense he might be ticking it with the intent of cleaning it after, no?

GO

you're right, Gabe.

tell you what, I'll hike up to hong Kong Phooey next week with a pair of binocs and let you know whether he cleaned the ticks or not.

care to make any predictions?

Sounds like you know the guy better than I do, so no, I won't make any predictions.

I don't know Steph Davis or Dean Potter personally, but my sense is that this is another thread more or less about how they are self-obsessed, self-indulgent climbers, who care only for their own selves and their friends, not for the climbing community as a whole. Perhaps. Certainly some of their writing and actions seem to suggest this. But some of the people who do know them say they're really nice folks who care about the climbing community a lot.

I guess where I'm going with this is that with so much shit stirred up around them I really don't think it's great to pile more shit onto them unless it's based on what you know from your own experience, rather than "could have been her", and "he probably didn't clean up the ticks". Knowmsayn?

GO


dingus


Sep 11, 2007, 2:10 PM
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I thought he was complaining about tick marks.

None of the folks I hang with use them.

DMT


thomasribiere


Sep 11, 2007, 2:26 PM
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Back on topic.

Last weekend, now that we talk about it, I remember that I ticked the rock over a hidden foothold, saying to myself "just clean it when you are lowered".
Unfortunately, I just forgot because I was a bit tired after the climb and thought about something esle.

I seldom tick and I'm almost sure I didn't even use this tick mark (!), so I guess I really shouldn't.
Just to add that this tickmark was half the size of an index fingerprint.


Partner angry


Sep 11, 2007, 2:30 PM
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For your crime, I'll let it slide this time.

But really, do we need tick marks on 6 pitch moderate to easy hard alpine routes? And I am talking about 2" ticks and quite possibly 100 of them in total.

It's cold up there, I'm not going back to count.


thomasribiere


Sep 11, 2007, 2:44 PM
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The answer is no. It must be more a kind of pulsion or motivation than anything else really useful.
Our climbers eyes and cortex should be trained to memorize the shape of the rock for a few seconds, so that when we see a good foothold, we should be able to put the foot on it the move after. Especially when there's already some black ruuber marks on it (extremely frequent on limestone, at least).


fracture


Sep 11, 2007, 6:05 PM
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angry wrote:
Many many times I've come out against tick marks. Everyone says that it's fine as long as they get brushed off.

Tick marks are a beautiful thing. In the context of gymnastic climbing, brushing them off neither is nor should be common practice: you should leave them for the next climber to enjoy.

(But no comment from me on the alpine rehearsed free soloing nonsense...)


dingus


Sep 11, 2007, 6:39 PM
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More of that sport climber respect for his fellow climbers.

We don't pick up our shit hellno! Its some damn good lookin shit. Beautiful shit! We leave it there so you too may enjoy the bounty of our bowels.

Love,
DMT


jt512


Sep 11, 2007, 11:05 PM
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dingus wrote:
More of that sport climber respect for his fellow climbers.

In the sport climbing context, that's exactly what it is. With the reasonable assumption that high-end sport routes will only be climbed by high-end sport climbers, then leaving the tick marks in place is doing the next climber a favor. This is essentially the same argument about draws left hanging. The only people who seem to object are people who don't climb the routes in question.

Jay


vegastradguy


Sep 11, 2007, 11:32 PM
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i never understood tickmarks at anything less than the absolute highest levels of climbing, and even then, only on holds that are difficult to see when making a move.

and tick marks on cracks make zero sense, except maybe in some very discontinuous 5.14 and up thing that requires a perfect jam in a perfect spot or it doesnt go, and that spot is hard to distinguish from another one.

regardless, i agree- clean that shit up- unlike most other impacts we have, leaving chalk all over routes leaves a blatant negative impression on all those other outdoor user groups who have to look at it. (red rocks calico hills being a great example of this- no, folks, the rock is supposed to be red, not white...)

you gotta love potter, though. spends all that time spouting off about how spiritual the climbing experience is, and then leaves a bunch of white shit all over the rock. thanks dean.

its threads like this that make me proud to be one climber who does not contribute to the chalk problem.


wanderlustmd


Sep 12, 2007, 4:54 AM
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Good points here. It really seems simple: clean up your mess. That's it.

In terms of whether or not ticking is a viable practice... we can go all day on that one. I personnally agree with Vegastradguy, but to each his own. The inportant things is to just clean up after yourself out of common courtesy. That's just a no-brainer.

-Matt


carbonrx8


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Three points:

1) I want to let you guys that spout and spout about not using chalk outside know that all your self-important blather ("look at me! I'm using no chalk!") has won over an early convert. I mean really, what was I thinking. Most rock is pretty damn sticky and I am not climbing anything hard. Unless I am sweating and the rock is slick, I save my chalk for plastic.

2) Seems to me that this infatuation with DP and SD is like the climbers version of the US's redonkulus infatuation with the felonious feminine foibles of PH, BS, and LH. Seriously, several folks have chimed in their scorn, yet no one really knows what is going on. (despite the fair logic.) Besides, i got to see delicate arch this summer. All the hypocritical mumbo jumbo aside, I don't see the big deal. Sure it was "against the rules" but have you seen the 20 mile long black skid-mark double track through the desert there from all the hummers? How 'bout all the paved trails? Unsightly. Surely DP left less of a trace there.

3) I had a third point... but lost it amidst the rambling.


granite_grrl


Sep 12, 2007, 5:39 AM
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For me, tick marks are like bad beta.

Your sequence will likely not be my sequnce, they usually screw me up more than they help.


Partner cracklover


Sep 12, 2007, 6:06 AM
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dingus wrote:
More of that sport climber respect for his fellow climbers.

We don't pick up our shit hellno! Its some damn good lookin shit. Beautiful shit! We leave it there so you too may enjoy the bounty of our bowels.

Love,
DMT

Hey Dingus - do you use chalk? Do you clean it up after every climb? Does your shit not stink?

I'm just sayin'...

GO


shanz


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maybe its just me but tick marks never seemed to work for me i never seem to climb the same route the same way every time (i attribute this to goldfish memory) not to mention moves that work for some dont always work for others. so using tick marks never seems to work for me. sure i use chalk but then again i tend to forget to chalk up or re chalk up when my hands are sweating (aka goldfish memory again) cause im too focused on getting up the climb. Maybe tick marks work for some(likely fewer rather than more) i think the debate is something used to let forth some rage on RC due that we arent out there climbing.


(This post was edited by shanz on Sep 12, 2007, 6:46 AM)


Partner angry


Sep 12, 2007, 7:11 AM
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Jay, you can take your "high-end" and stuff it.

You don't climb any harder than many users of this site who would never put a tic on a hold. So don't try to act special. I know you're a robot, it's all logic and numbers to you.

Where's your logic for a ticked up 10c?


dingus


Sep 12, 2007, 7:26 AM
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In reply to:
jt512 wrote:
dingus wrote:
More of that sport climber respect for his fellow climbers.

In the sport climbing context, that's exactly what it is. With the reasonable assumption that high-end sport routes will only be climbed by high-end sport climbers, then leaving the tick marks in place is doing the next climber a favor. This is essentially the same argument about draws left hanging. The only people who seem to object are people who don't climb the routes in question.

Jay

I really don't care Jay, about tick marks, high end sport climbers and all the other things they do for convenience, like leaving their permadraws all over the place. Sport climbing is an urban sport - it brings the city out into the wild.

But don't try to sell it as respect. I'll laugh in your face.

DMT


dingus


Sep 12, 2007, 7:28 AM
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cracklover wrote:
dingus wrote:
More of that sport climber respect for his fellow climbers.

We don't pick up our shit hellno! Its some damn good lookin shit. Beautiful shit! We leave it there so you too may enjoy the bounty of our bowels.

Love,
DMT

Hey Dingus - do you use chalk? Do you clean it up after every climb? Does your shit not stink?

I'm just sayin'...

GO

My shit does not stink. I don't use tick marks, ever. When I leave chalk marks behind I don't pretend I'm doing so out of re cough cough cough resp hahahahahahahah

I'm sorry

r-e-s-p-e-c-t find out what it means to me!

DMT


wonderwoman


Sep 12, 2007, 7:56 AM
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The most tick marks I've ever seen in one place was at Cheakamus Canyon in BC. And I mean EVERYTHING on EVERY CLIMB was tick marked. Any texture, feature or hold, had a big solid white mark on it. It seemed pretty silly and looked so ugly. I could almost imagine some insane school teacher running around with a stick of chalk giving a bad beta lesson.


knieveltech


Sep 12, 2007, 8:04 AM
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granite_grrl wrote:
For me, tick marks are like bad beta.

Your sequence will likely not be my sequnce, they usually screw me up more than they help.

I know exactly what you mean. After a recent trip to the New where two routes and a number of boulder problems I got on had tick marks in ridiculous places (ticked miserable crimper 8 inches away from a nice sidepull, heavily chalked greasy sloper inches away from a bomber hidden hold, etc) I pretty much make it a point to disregard tics as beta.


k.l.k


Sep 12, 2007, 8:15 AM
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jt512 wrote:
dingus wrote:
More of that sport climber respect for his fellow climbers.

In the sport climbing context, that's exactly what it is. With the reasonable assumption that high-end sport routes will only be climbed by high-end sport climbers, then leaving the tick marks in place is doing the next climber a favor. This is essentially the same argument about draws left hanging. The only people who seem to object are people who don't climb the routes in question.

Jay

That depends on your crag and the folks you climb with. Extensive tick-marks are essentially beta-- not a problem if everyone at your crag is incapable of even attempting an on-sight. But if you only do sport routes pre-equipped with tick marks, you're training yourself not to develop your onsight skills at harder levels. Some folks could care less. But others do. Not a problem if you're a 12a climber flailing on her 13a project. But it could be a problem for the 13a climber behind you.


Partner cracklover


Sep 12, 2007, 8:34 AM
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dingus wrote:
cracklover wrote:
dingus wrote:
More of that sport climber respect for his fellow climbers.

We don't pick up our shit hellno! Its some damn good lookin shit. Beautiful shit! We leave it there so you too may enjoy the bounty of our bowels.

Love,
DMT

Hey Dingus - do you use chalk? Do you clean it up after every climb? Does your shit not stink?

I'm just sayin'...

GO

My shit does not stink. I don't use tick marks, ever. When I leave chalk marks behind I don't pretend I'm doing so out of re cough cough cough resp hahahahahahahah

I'm sorry

r-e-s-p-e-c-t find out what it means to me!

DMT

Well read between the lines here, man. If your issue is that tick marks look ugly to non-climbers, they're plenty less visible than the caked-on chalk on many climbs.

So when ye get on your soapbox and cast out the sport-weenies from the temple for being holier-than-thou and thinking their visual impact is a good thing, cast yourself out, too.

Honestly, I really can't get that worked up over tick marks. I don't use 'em, but I'm sure I (and many of you) leave far more visual impact with our chalked up hands.

Mind you, I use a chalk ball and pretty much only chalk at cruxy bits, or when it's very hot. But multiply that by enough climbers, and you get a lot of visual impact in some areas (like the desert).

I just can't help but think that my (and many of you out there) shit stinks way worse than whoever left those tick marks on the diamond.

To the OP: if your point is that you think some climbers are self-absorbed, self-obsessed, and think that their insight is like pearls of wisdom from the mouth of the buddha, and you just want to bring them back down to earth with the rest of us stinky-shit people, well then just come out and say so.

GO


gatrailboy


Sep 12, 2007, 8:58 AM
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I really haven't seen any evidence(in this form) that these marks are left for more than a few days. If anyone here is free soloing 10c then I would be inclined to comment-otherwise I would find something else to talk about. Steph and Dean keep climbing and don't give into the negative. It probably dosen't have anything to do with those guys anyway.


the_alpine


Sep 12, 2007, 9:03 AM
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A similar topic:

I'm not sure how many of you have seen Josh Lowell's new film King Lines yet. In there they travel to a remote region of Venezuela to boulder on amazing rock formations atop Tepui's. Sharma spews his normal one with the rock, loving nature, leave no trace...... BUT THEY CHALK THE SHIT OUT OF EVERY BOULDER THEY CLIMB! Maybe the rains wash it all away, but I tend to think that is not necessarily the case.

I'd be pissed if I walked 3 days through a jungle, topped out a huge formation and was greeted by gobs of chalk.


dingus


Sep 12, 2007, 9:08 AM
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cracklover wrote:
Well read between the lines here, man.

No. I'll leave the inference work to you. I prefer to state this directly - tick marks have NOTHING to do with respect.

They are a convenience and the respect thing is a lame excuse for sloppy behavior.

You won't read me categorizing the use of climbing chalk as respect hahahahahahahaha! That would be ridiculous!

DMT


(This post was edited by dingus on Sep 12, 2007, 9:10 AM)


wzrdgandalf


Sep 12, 2007, 9:24 AM
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angry wrote:
Many many times I've come out against tick marks. Everyone says that it's fine as long as they get brushed off.

Not a bad arguement except that no-one ever brushes them off. In my life, I've never seen a tick mark brushed off by someone who placed one.

My latest example, Pervertical Sanctuary 10c, Longs Peak. It's got more ticks than the Black Canyon in the spring. Not a chalky hold mind you, a big thick tick on every single nub or edge. Ticked like a gym climb.

This is on a 10c (possibly up to 11a depending on who you ask) that doesn't have a hidden or devious move anywhere on it. I'm relatively certain that these ticks were put there by a big name climber who soloed the route last week. Fine, tick the route to keep your career alive (god knows your husband's is in the toilet) but rap the fucking thing and clean up your mess. You are a pro climber, you've got nothing but time. It's not like you don't have the extra half day to tidy up.

If it's not you, sorry. Doesn't change my point, don't tick a route you can't or won't clean.
Man Beth Rodden needs to stop tick marking all over the place. Tongue


petsfed


Sep 12, 2007, 9:34 AM
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If your tick marks look like anything more than you accidentally touched the rock with your finger, you're doin' it wrong. 2 inch lines, circles, the words "good fucking crimp" scrawled on the rock? All of them are wrong.


wonderwoman


Sep 12, 2007, 9:39 AM
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Here's an idea... Everyone in this forum can vow to go chalk free from here on in! You can go first, and since there's nothing to climb in Florida, you can walk the talk when you climb the rock!


Partner baja_java


Sep 12, 2007, 9:56 AM
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actually, you can go chalkfree in CA, AZ, CO, UT, or anywhere

and you don't have to vow. you can just do it


Gmburns2000


Sep 12, 2007, 9:57 AM
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Just a curious noob question: does using my lime-green spray paint to mark all the holds on a 5.4 project count? It doesn't come off easily, but it will over time. Just wondering.


wonderwoman


Sep 12, 2007, 10:05 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
Just a curious noob question: does using my lime-green spray paint to mark all the holds on a 5.4 project count? It doesn't come off easily, but it will over time. Just wondering.

Ah... a true quincy quarries climber!


moose_droppings


Sep 12, 2007, 10:11 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
Just a curious noob question: does using my lime-green spray paint to mark all the holds on a 5.4 project count? It doesn't come off easily, but it will over time. Just wondering.

Great color, it looks as natural as some mosses. Don't worry if it doesn't come off easy.

I prefer bolts instead of tick marks. Everyone can find these and no one complains about them.


Gmburns2000


Sep 12, 2007, 10:14 AM
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wonderwoman wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
Just a curious noob question: does using my lime-green spray paint to mark all the holds on a 5.4 project count? It doesn't come off easily, but it will over time. Just wondering.

Ah... a true quincy quarries climber!

Gotta love how the direct start of Ladder Line is totally mapped out in gold now. I should be able to run right up that sucker. Tongue Tic marks are fun! Yea!


drjghl


Sep 12, 2007, 10:35 AM
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I'm not sure if my idea of a tick mark is the same as everyone else.

Holds will get chalked up from use. These aren't tick marks to me. I think most climbers inspect all features within reach (chalked and nonchalked) before making a move. Holds gets chalked while searching. Inevitable. But marking features for foot placements seems wrong. And this last action is what I think of as ticking.


wmfork


Sep 12, 2007, 12:40 PM
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These were NOT holds that got chalked up from use. In all fairness, most of the tick marks on the route probably won't survive the winter (or a month), but still... It was kind of annoying, but then we also didn't get off-route.


jt512


Sep 12, 2007, 2:40 PM
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vegastradguy wrote:
i never understood tickmarks at anything less than the absolute highest levels of climbing, and even then, only on holds that are difficult to see when making a move.

I don't understand why you think tick marks are understandable at only the highest levels of climbing. Tick marks are most helpful when you are climbing at your limit. That is, it's the relative difficulty of the climbing, and not the absolute difficulty, that is relevant.

On difficult redpoints, you tick holds in order to visually identify them quicker, allowing you to climb the route faster, expending less energy, a crucial determinant of redpoint success. Ticks are especially helpful when the hold is difficult to see (eg, a subtle sweet spot on a hold) or its location is confusing (eg, one hold among several nearby similar-looking holds).

In reply to:
and tick marks on cracks make zero sense, except maybe in some very discontinuous 5.14 and up thing that requires a perfect jam in a perfect spot or it doesnt go, and that spot is hard to distinguish from another one.

Again, it's unclear why you think that this is absolute-difficulty based, rather than relative-difficulty based. On Digital Watch in J-Tree (5.11b-R), I ticked a crucial placement, the only spot in the finger crack where I could place a blue Alien to protect the crux from a ground fall. Had I not been able to find this one exact spot on redpoint, I would have had to place a black Alien instead, not exactly the piece I want between me and death. Although the tick mark was important to me, a 5.14 climber wouldn't have needed it, either because he would have had the experience to easily spot the placement, or he would be satisfied with a black Alien because he would expect not to fall on 5.11b.

Jay


vegastradguy


Sep 12, 2007, 5:05 PM
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jt512 wrote:
vegastradguy wrote:
i never understood tickmarks at anything less than the absolute highest levels of climbing, and even then, only on holds that are difficult to see when making a move.

I don't understand why you think tick marks are understandable at only the highest levels of climbing. Tick marks are most helpful when you are climbing at your limit. That is, it's the relative difficulty of the climbing, and not the absolute difficulty, that is relevant.

personally, i think that if you're redpointing, the route should be so dialed that a tick mark would be unnecessary- tick marks are for projecting at best, and even then i still think they're unnecessary for the most part.



In reply to:
In reply to:
and tick marks on cracks make zero sense, except maybe in some very discontinuous 5.14 and up thing that requires a perfect jam in a perfect spot or it doesnt go, and that spot is hard to distinguish from another one.

Again, it's unclear why you think that this is absolute-difficulty based, rather than relative-difficulty based. On Digital Watch in J-Tree (5.11b-R), I ticked a crucial placement, the only spot in the finger crack where I could place a blue Alien to protect the crux from a ground fall. Had I not been able to find this one exact spot on redpoint, I would have had to place a black Alien instead, not exactly the piece I want between me and death. Although the tick mark was important to me, a 5.14 climber wouldn't have needed it, either because he would have had the experience to easily spot the placement, or he would be satisfied with a black Alien because he would expect not to fall on 5.11b.

Jay
its difficulty based because my perception is that at the highest levels of climbing, the holds are harder to see. combine this with my personal experience on routes up to the .12ish range and there you go.

however, upon further consideration, i think i'll retract my above examples- tick marks are unnecessary- and if you find them necessary, you should 1) re-evaluate your climbing ability and 2) clean up after yourself.

as for your example- if its too hard for you to place gear on...maybe you should wait to climb it when you're stronger.


jt512


Sep 12, 2007, 10:07 PM
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vegastradguy wrote:
jt512 wrote:
vegastradguy wrote:
i never understood tickmarks at anything less than the absolute highest levels of climbing, and even then, only on holds that are difficult to see when making a move.

I don't understand why you think tick marks are understandable at only the highest levels of climbing. Tick marks are most helpful when you are climbing at your limit. That is, it's the relative difficulty of the climbing, and not the absolute difficulty, that is relevant.

personally, i think that if you're redpointing, the route should be so dialed that a tick mark would be unnecessary-

What rational basis, if any, do you have for such a rule? Sounds to me like an arbitrary personal preference that you are attempting to magnify into a moral imperative that everyone "should" follow.

In reply to:
tick marks are for projecting at best...

Says who?

In reply to:
...and even then i still think they're unnecessary for the most part.

Technically, the are unnecessary. But without tick marks you would have to spend more time learning the route...to what advantage?

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
and tick marks on cracks make zero sense, except maybe in some very discontinuous 5.14 and up thing that requires a perfect jam in a perfect spot or it doesnt go, and that spot is hard to distinguish from another one.

Again, it's unclear why you think that this is absolute-difficulty based, rather than relative-difficulty based. On Digital Watch in J-Tree (5.11b-R), I ticked a crucial placement, the only spot in the finger crack where I could place a blue Alien to protect the crux from a ground fall. Had I not been able to find this one exact spot on redpoint, I would have had to place a black Alien instead, not exactly the piece I want between me and death. Although the tick mark was important to me, a 5.14 climber wouldn't have needed it, either because he would have had the experience to easily spot the placement, or he would be satisfied with a black Alien because he would expect not to fall on 5.11b.

its difficulty based because my perception is that at the highest levels of climbing, the holds are harder to see.

Well, they are; but higher level climbers are better at seeing them. I don't need to tick footholds on 5.10 routes, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't help a fledgling 5.10 climber.

In reply to:
tick marks are unnecessary- and if you find them necessary, you should 1) re-evaluate your climbing ability...

Another moral dictum.

In reply to:
as for your example- if its too hard for you to place gear on...maybe you should wait to climb it when you're stronger.

Wow, three "shoulds" in one post! What benefit would I have received by not climbing the route when I did?

Jay


flint


Sep 12, 2007, 11:13 PM
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jt512 wrote:
dingus wrote:
More of that sport climber respect for his fellow climbers.

In the sport climbing context, that's exactly what it is. With the reasonable assumption that high-end sport routes will only be climbed by high-end sport climbers, then leaving the tick marks in place is doing the next climber a favor. This is essentially the same argument about draws left hanging. The only people who seem to object are people who don't climb the routes in question.

Jay

Get off your high fucking horse. Damn, Check the profile, I climb no where near your grade, but if I turn into a total cock sucker at your level, count me out, I will be happy to hand jam my nice 5.10 anyday.

**Plonk** there, I did it for you.


jt512


Sep 12, 2007, 11:27 PM
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flint wrote:
jt512 wrote:
dingus wrote:
More of that sport climber respect for his fellow climbers.

In the sport climbing context, that's exactly what it is. With the reasonable assumption that high-end sport routes will only be climbed by high-end sport climbers, then leaving the tick marks in place is doing the next climber a favor. This is essentially the same argument about draws left hanging. The only people who seem to object are people who don't climb the routes in question.

Jay

Get off your high fucking horse. Damn, Check the profile, I climb no where near your grade, but if I turn into a total cock sucker at your level, count me out, I will be happy to hand jam my nice 5.10 anyday.

**Plonk** there, I did it for you.

Rather than killfile you immediately (though you certainly deserve it), I have to ask about the "thought process" you underwent in deciding from my post that I am on some kind of a "high horse." Are you so insecure about your climbing that the mere mention of hard climbing causes you to make accusations of the poster and call him a "total cock sucker?"

Jay


flint


Sep 13, 2007, 12:25 AM
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In retrospect, I do apologize for the comment, though I feel it semi warranted. I base my assumption on the numerous other posts, along with the ones contained in this thread. I personally do not know you, and would hope, and understand a different mentality being used on the internet than in real life, due to the increasing amount of lack luster knowledge.

To the topic, your posts normally contain a great deal of arrogance that is construed, properly or not, as looking down on those that don't normally climb "high-end sport routes." Two examples, one form your reply are "Are you so insecure about your climbing that the mere mention of hard climbing causes you to make accusations of the poster" and to the original, "The only people who seem to object are people who don't climb the routes in question"

The second quote is rather tame considering some previous posts I have read of yours, but the idea that leaving draws behind for those high-end routes, only affects a small group is extremely narrow minded. I look outside the climbing world, for example, if you were going for a nice weekend and really needed to escape any human presence, than yes, seeing man made goods, whether it be draws or trash would be unwanted. Granted, draws being the lesser of two evils, and the comment sounds extremely impossible, but I know many people that have expressed this issue. Some areas even have regulations against the action.

I simply ask you to consider the thoughts of others on some topics. Obviously you are a very talented climber, one who many people may look up to. I simply would like to point out, that in the grand scheme of life, me sending 5.10's and you sending 5.14 is really not that different, and a little respect for everyone should be a common and shared trait (despite what I have often shown RC.com.)

In response to my insecurity, I feel no need to respond to a comment that can no way be proved, or disproved over an internet forum, we will leave the dick measuring in the men's room


jt512


Sep 13, 2007, 1:59 AM
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flint wrote:
In retrospect, I do apologize for the comment, though I feel it semi warranted.

In that case, I semi-thank you.

In reply to:
I base my assumption...

That admission really ought to end the argument.

In reply to:
To the topic, your posts normally contain a great deal of arrogance...

This is essentially a repetition of your earlier claim, which you have not supported with any objective evidence. Unless you can do so, I maintain that my posts are simply matter of fact statements about common sport climbing practices, and that your interpreting them as "arrogant" is simply a reflection of your own insecurity or ignorance. No, I can't prove that, either, but on the other hand, it wasn't me who called you a "total cock sucker."

In reply to:
...that is construed, properly or not, as looking down on those that don't normally climb "high-end sport routes."

Since I don't climb high-end sport routes, it is difficult to understand how someone could interpret my commenting on the practices of those who climb such routes, as arrogance, unless, once again, they are insecure about their own climbing level. Like I've been saying, I made nothing more than a factual statement about real-world climbing.

In reply to:
Two examples, one form your reply are "Are you so insecure about your climbing that the mere mention of hard climbing causes you to make accusations of the poster"

Having already commented on this twice, I won't do so again.

In reply to:
"The only people who seem to object are people who don't climb the routes in question"

And I stand by that statement, having climbed in some 30 sport climbing areas. There isn't a one in which leaving draws up or using chalk is not a fully accepted practice. In fact, they are nearly universally accepted and uncontroversial practices in sport climbing (parts of the New being a notable exception, apparently).

In reply to:
...but the idea that leaving draws behind for those high-end routes, only affects a small group is extremely narrow minded.

No, it's a simple statement of reality, as opposed to the hypothesizing that you are engaging in.

In reply to:
I look outside the climbing world, for example, if you were going for a nice weekend and really needed to escape any human presence, than yes, seeing man made goods, whether it be draws or trash would be unwanted.

So, when was the last you went for a nice weekend and really needed to escape any human presence, and your experience was ruined by someone having left draws up on a high-end sport route? Never? Ok, then who do you know who this has happened to? No one? Ok, then are you talking reality or just hypothesizing about something that really doesn't occur.

In reply to:
Granted, draws being the lesser of two evils, and the comment sounds extremely impossible, but I know many people that have expressed this issue.

Funny how I'm the one who has been climbing for 20 years, doesn't live in Ohio, sport climbs over 100 days a year outdoors, and has never heard A SINGLE PERSON complain about chalk or project draws.

In reply to:
Some areas even have regulations against the action.

Like 1 area in 1000. And in those areas, which presumably do see a lot of non-climber traffic, those regulations should be respected. But that is hardly an argument against leaving draws up in the other 999 out of 1000 areas where the practice is utterly banal.

In reply to:
I simply ask you to consider the thoughts of others on some topics.

I consider them every time I read them, and usually just end up wondering what planet people are climbing on.

Jay


flint


Sep 13, 2007, 2:43 AM
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Cuting responses to fit your personal agenda, do you work for CNN on the 265 days or so a year that you are not climbing.

In reply to:
This is essentially a repetition of your earlier claim, which you have not supported with any objective evidence. Unless you can do so, I maintain that my posts are simply matter of fact statements about common sport climbing practices..... No, I can't prove that, either

Look at me go.

In reply to:
Since I don't climb high-end sport routes, it is difficult to understand how someone could interpret my commenting on the practices of those who climb such routes

Well, seeing as I never stated that you climb high-end sport routes, I only now question how you are so keen to the understanding and ethical practices of those elite individuals.

In reply to:
And I stand by that statement, having climbed in some 30 sport climbing areas. There isn't a one in which leaving draws up or using chalk is not a fully accepted practice. In fact, they are nearly universally accepted and uncontroversial practices in sport climbing (parts of the New being a notable exception, apparently)

Wow, you admit your wrong within the same topic you know so much about. Not a good argument strategy.

In reply to:
In reply to:...but the idea that leaving draws behind for those high-end routes, only affects a small group is extremely narrow minded.

No, it's a simple statement of reality, as opposed to the hypothesizing that you are engaging in.


Your statement is also a hypothese, unless it can be proven beyond a reasonable dought... need I remind you of the New and their policies again.

In reply to:
Funny how I'm the one who has been climbing for 20 years, doesn't live in Ohio, sport climbs over 100 days a year outdoors, and has never heard A SINGLE PERSON complain about chalk or project draws.

Funny how chalk, and idealy impacts, are what this thread was originaly about. Or is saying chalk is an impact to big of a stretch for you. And, yeah, I live in Ohio, I guess that sways my personal ethics some how, granted I only live there for half of the year.

In reply to:
I consider them every time I read them, and usually just end up wondering what planet people are climbing on.

Come back to ours some time and I will take you out for some trad, or should we bolt those lines and put up some perm. draws so you won't cry to much.

And no response to measuring up, I thought this was a thread hijak/fight, come on, I left you wide open on that one.

j-


jt512


Sep 13, 2007, 3:15 AM
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In reply to:
Cuting responses to fit your personal agenda

That's not even remotely what I did. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for you.

flint wrote:
[snip quite a bit of blatant misleading, desperate, out-of-context quoting]

Come back to ours some time and I will take you out for some trad, or should we bolt those lines and put up some perm. draws so you won't cry to much.

Considering that I've led trad two number grades harder than you have, and have actually done so in some worthwhile areas, I'm going to take a pass on your invitation to climb 5.9 in Ohio.

So, out of three posts, in the first you do nothing but call me names; in the second you show a shred of intelligence; and in the third you show that you are incapable of addressing any of my arguments, and instead resort to childish dishonest debate tactics, proving that the it was the second post that was out of character for you.

Verdict: (1) Grow up. (2) *plonk*

Jay


overlord


Sep 13, 2007, 3:50 AM
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well, i remove my tick mark after finishing a route (not that i use them all the time, only when theres a hidden cruical hold that is hard to tick) and i also remove tick marks that other ppl put up and didnt remove. especially those long ones poiting to an obvious jug on a .9Tongue


flint


Sep 13, 2007, 3:58 AM
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Yes, because asking yourself in a sarcastic tone, "what planet do they climb on" is a relatively adult way of argueing.

Please show one dishonest statement I placed in my third post.

I love that you place the locations you have climbed on the worth while list, of which I have no debate, but neglect to consider anything besides my residentce.

In reply to:
Considering that I've led trad two number grades harder than you have

I believe in my previous post I described how truely important climbing grades are in measuring self worth.

I did apologize for the names, the debate over the marrits of the names is of a different question. Thank you for the complament, and toward my third post, I felt as though I address the issue fully, despite recieving no response from you that would spread a different light on the subject.

My debate topics, childish as they may be, have apperently been used to a level that allowed for no on topic response to the discussion at hand. Leading me to believe that you have idealy come to an understanding of both view points (the ultimate goal, of which the right to decide is yours, and you will not be judged by me for that) or that, and most likely, my debate tactics are stronger than your argument, which is saying a lot, seeing that I have only a child's understanding of the principle.

Verdict: Adults are capable of seeing both sides and drawing a conclusion, children believe they are right from the start.


Partner cracklover


Sep 13, 2007, 6:57 AM
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jt512 wrote:
(2) *plonk*

Jay

Jay, if you killfile everyone who occassionally calls you names, and has trouble making a coherent argument, especially when you're beating them soundly, it's going to be a lonely place for you around here before too long!

GO


vegastradguy


Sep 13, 2007, 7:06 AM
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jt512 wrote:
What rational basis, if any, do you have for such a rule? Sounds to me like an arbitrary personal preference that you are attempting to magnify into a moral imperative that everyone "should" follow.

no rational basis, sheerly personal preference. i climb by a different set of rules than you (surprise, surprise), and, i felt like sharing those rules here.

however, i am not attempting to magnify them into a moral imperative (thats a bit much, i think), i'm simply sharing my thoughts on the subject.


lemon_boy


Sep 13, 2007, 7:43 AM
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usually when i see a picture of an amazng desert crack, i sit and stare at it in awe. i think about the hundreds of desert cracks that i have climbed and wonder how this one compares to them. i wonder where it is, how long it is, what size it is.... i look at the topography in the background and try to figure out if i have been near it before.

when i saw the picture of dean potter on hong kong phooey, i couldn't even see the crack. all i could see was an abortion of 6 inch tick marks all over the fucking place. it seriously made me want to vomit. who the fuck needs to tick a desert crack? it is completely and utterly unnecessary, i don't give a fuck what the grade is. those of you pathetic sheep that will doubtlessly keep sucking dean's cack, whatever he may do, can keep doing so. but it is good to see that there are people out there who don't give privelege to somebody simply because they are in the mags.

jay, i understand your argument for ticks, if they are used in complex face climbing where the exact location of the sweet spot is helpful. however, i disagree with your comment that it is helpful for the next climber. i would say this is actually usually detrimental, as a number of climbers do the route and tick it based on their (often very poor) "beta". this is particularly distracting to people who are trying to onsight the routes that the 'tickers' are desperately dogging up. i imagine that you have robably done a route where you came across a ticked hold and thought 'who was the knucklehead who ticked this hold, it isn't the correct hold to use here."

anyway, as angry said in his first post (i think), it wouldn't be that big of a deal if people cleaned them off, but they never do.


dingus


Sep 13, 2007, 7:53 AM
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Killfile all you want you petty bastards but you PLONKERS suck donkey balls each and every one of you.

Fucking pansies.

DMT


fracture


Sep 13, 2007, 7:56 AM
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jt512 wrote:
vegastradguy wrote:
as for your example- if its too hard for you to place gear on...maybe you should wait to climb it when you're stronger.

Wow, three "shoulds" in one post! What benefit would I have received by not climbing the route when I did?

If you were systematic about it, you would receive the illusion of a moral high ground.

It's... The Rock Conscientious Objector's Way.


lodi5onu


Sep 13, 2007, 8:43 AM
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I placed the dark 2" tick mark on an unnecessary foothold at the crux of World At War at Summersville Lake last weekend. I forgot to brush it off after i finished the climb. Don't use it as it's not in the correct sequence, but i was pissed off and trying lots of different options. Sorry.


justroberto


Sep 13, 2007, 9:01 AM
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lodi5onu wrote:
I placed the dark 2" tick mark on an unnecessary foothold at the crux of World At War at Summersville Lake last weekend.

I'm a big fan of the "mixed" label written in chalk at the base of Orange Dihedral down at Summersville.

Brilliant.

I tried to take it off, but it was a stubborn little bastard...


lodi5onu


Sep 13, 2007, 9:07 AM
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or how about "fuck this climb" on one at bubba city...can't remember the name, but that had to have taken some time and chalk


Partner angry


Sep 13, 2007, 9:22 AM
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I'll bring up a point that the infamous BobD used specifically against me in one of our "ethics" arguement.

Style is how you choose to climb the rock, it only affects you, the climber.

Ethics effects everyone who climbs the rock.


So if "Tickmonster" had rapped the route and cleaned it after the wicked send, his/her style would not have affected me in the least.

Since "Tickmonster" did not clean up the mess, I had no choice but to be affected by this ethic.

Did I have a great time on Pervertical? Hell yes, I rode my bike from 6pm to 2am, drove to boulder at 3am. Was in the parking lot by 5am, did the hike in, climbed the route, got cold, got snowed on, got the onsight, nearly fucked myself on rappel, and slept really well that night.

Did the tick marks take away from a great day. Yes they did. No, they didn't spoil the day, but they affected the climb. I did not consider it a favor.

Now Jay, keep up your arguement. You're going nowhere with it, you're accomplishing nothing. Wanna talk numbers and radness and total bitchin sends cause you're so high end? Bring it.


atpeaceinbozeman


Sep 13, 2007, 9:28 AM
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Tick marks in Big Bend...seem okay to meCrazy

Rise to the occasion, or bring it down to your level?


k.l.k


Sep 13, 2007, 9:41 AM
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jt-- I usually enjoy your posts, possibly because I frequently agree with the positions they set out, but you have a tendency to project your own particular experience ("me and my friends do x here or have found y to be generally true there) as an eternal and universal truth ("all sport climbers do x," "sport climbing is y....."). What you and your partners have been doing at you crags for the past few years is not necessarily representative. But most of the n00bs reading these threads aren't going to understand that nor are they likely to understand that 5.12 is no longer the old standard. They are likely to react at the tone.

Leaving tick marks is not a universally accepted best practice. It may well be best practice at your favorite crags and the ones you have visited elsewhere. It may have become general in socal in the years since I've been gone (it wasn't at the crags i developed). It isn't at Pet Wall or in Steinerne Stadt or at any number of other areas in which i've climbed more recently. Ticks aren't allowed at all in most comps where on-sighting is the goal. And the constant use of tick marks-- or climbing only at pre-tick marked crags--will eventually have unhappy effects on one's skills for on-sighting. If you get the chance to flee the socal chosspiles and go to the Dolomites to try some of the sport classics, you can't count on someone having left tick-marks up Canasla or The Fish.

i do find it easy to believe that the practice of leaving tick-marks has become much more common recently, especially in the U.S. since we don't have many areas with multi-pitch sport and comps are as important as they are in Europe. And the issue has made some noise overseas. One of the nastier rumours about an important solo by a famous German climber was that the route had been prepped with tons of colored tape to mark hand and footholds. I mention this not because I know it to be true, but because the simple fact that it could be used as a nasty rumour suggests that the practice is not universally held to be a respectful contribution to the experience of the greater sport climbing community.


moose_droppings


Sep 13, 2007, 10:13 AM
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Striking that when talking about some bolts it was, pretend their not there, ignore them, don't clip them. But with tic marks, some of those same think they should be removed, not used at all, a nuisance.
Crazy

Some day they'll invent a non straddling fence.


k.l.k


Sep 13, 2007, 10:31 AM
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moose droppings-- yes, a bolt line--and chalked handholds--make a route easier (usually) to read. but it doesn't follow that permanent tickmarks or tape markings on small features are not an additional aid. if they were not, no one would use them let alone debate whether or not they should be removed. there is a reason that comps don't allow competitors to rap the route and tickmark their desired tinies ahead of time. i don't care if folks use tick marks. i use them sometimes. especially on difficult (for me) sections where the footholds are tiny and hard to see and the clock is running. i also erase them afterwards. it's not that big of a deal.

if you are a local at a crag in which almost everyone prefers projects, i don't care if you leave fixed tickmarks (unless it's on land where it could be an access issue). party like its 1999. rub glyco all over your naked body. tick mark your partner's zipper if you have trouble finding it. just understand that once you leave your home crag, and go climb elsewhere, tick mark culture may well be very different from what you are accustomed to. and if you decide to boulder in 'bleau, don't leave tickmarks unless you are looking for a beatdown from angry locals.


justroberto


Sep 13, 2007, 10:31 AM
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lodi5onu wrote:
or how about "fuck this climb" on one at bubba city...can't remember the name, but that had to have taken some time and chalk
Funny, I keep running into this chick up at the gorge that annoyingly and incessantly screams that on every climb, be it some .11 hangdog or a 30 foot .7 jughaul. Although, in all fairness it's more like "fuck this goddamned stupid mutherfucking goddamned mutherfucking piece of shit climb!" God I hate that shit.


(This post was edited by justroberto on Sep 13, 2007, 10:33 AM)


jt512


Sep 13, 2007, 11:51 AM
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cracklover wrote:
jt512 wrote:
(2) *plonk*

Jay

Jay, if you killfile everyone who occassionally calls you names, and has trouble making a coherent argument, especially when you're beating them soundly, it's going to be a lonely place for you around here before too long!

GO

I know. I started out only killfiling the most egregious idiots, but I'm going through a phase where I'm not really interested in reading posts by people who have little if anything useful to contribute. That may well be the majority of users here, and if that's the case, then so be it. I was once shocked when a friend of mine, who was once a major contributor to rec.climbing, informed me that he had been killfiling 75% of posters to that newsgroup. Now I understand it.

Jay


dingus


Sep 13, 2007, 11:56 AM
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jt512 wrote:
cracklover wrote:
jt512 wrote:
(2) *plonk*

Jay

Jay, if you killfile everyone who occassionally calls you names, and has trouble making a coherent argument, especially when you're beating them soundly, it's going to be a lonely place for you around here before too long!

GO

I know. I started out only killfiling the most egregious idiots, but I'm going through a phase where I'm not really interested in reading posts by people who have little if anything useful to contribute. That may well be the majority of users here, and if that's the case, then so be it. I was once shocked when a friend of mine, who was once a major contributor to rec.climbing, informed me that he had been killfiling 75% of posters to that newsgroup. Now I understand it.

Jay

Just leave the plonking bullshit in kindergarten will ya???

OR I'LL NEVER SPEAK TO YOU AGAIN SO THERE!!!

I'M NOT LISTENING!!!111111

NYAH NYAH NYAH NYAH!

Cheers
DMT


healyje


Sep 13, 2007, 12:00 PM
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Ticking is aid for the weak-minded with poor spatial and memory skills. Also, the claim of an onsight of a route previously ticked by someone else would be completely laughable.


jt512


Sep 13, 2007, 12:05 PM
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angry wrote:
Now Jay, keep up your arguement.

I'm not really making an argument, just stating simple facts. Just about everybody who's anybody in this sport uses tick marks, and most sport climbers don't mind climbing a route that has been ticked by someone else -- in fact, they often prefer it. Sport climbing is about doing hard moves, not about the spiritual experience of discovering a small foothold. Trad might be a different story. I erased my tick mark on Digital Watch in J Tree. I don't routinely erase my tick marks at sport crags.

Jay


wmfork


Sep 13, 2007, 4:39 PM
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jt512 wrote:
And I stand by that statement, having climbed in some 30 sport climbing areas. There isn't a one in which leaving draws up or using chalk is not a fully accepted practice. In fact, they are nearly universally accepted and uncontroversial practices in sport climbing (parts of the New being a notable exception, apparently).
By your argument, since people who climb at Sport Park, Boulder Canyon (and maybe other crags) don't have problem with chipped routes, it becomes an uncontroversial practice as well? Why should it surprise anyone that chippers don't have problems with chipping and sporto don't have problem with perma draws and ticks?

I have a number of partners who are put off by the sport climbing ethics enough that they'd choose NOT to go to a sport crag, who otherwise probably wouldn't mind clipping bolts too much.

At any rate, Pervertical is a trad route, and so are climbs in the Creek (though it smells more like sport with cams).


jt512


Sep 13, 2007, 5:09 PM
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wmfork wrote:
jt512 wrote:
And I stand by that statement, having climbed in some 30 sport climbing areas. There isn't a one in which leaving draws up or using chalk is not a fully accepted practice. In fact, they are nearly universally accepted and uncontroversial practices in sport climbing (parts of the New being a notable exception, apparently).
By your argument, since people who climb at Sport Park, Boulder Canyon (and maybe other crags) don't have problem with chipped routes, it becomes an uncontroversial practice as well?

I'm not making even making an argument about draws or chalk, never mind chipping, Einstein.

Jay


wmfork


Sep 13, 2007, 5:43 PM
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jt512 wrote:
I'm not making even making an argument about draws or chalk, never mind chipping, Einstein.
And you can state that 100 times. But when you keep stating facts (and opinions masqueraded as "facts") that only supports one side of an argument, you've implicitly engaged in an argument... unless, of course, if you wish to state your stand on the matter (if you have one at all).


jt512


Sep 13, 2007, 5:47 PM
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wmfork wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I'm not making even making an argument about draws or chalk, never mind chipping, Einstein.
But when you keep stating facts (and opinions masqueraded as "facts") that only supports one side of an argument, you've implicitly engaged in an argument... unless, of course, if you wish to state your stand on the matter (if you have one at all).

Huh?


flint


Sep 13, 2007, 6:50 PM
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jt512 wrote:
cracklover wrote:
jt512 wrote:
(2) *plonk*

Jay

Jay, if you killfile everyone who occassionally calls you names, and has trouble making a coherent argument, especially when you're beating them soundly, it's going to be a lonely place for you around here before too long!

GO

I know. I started out only killfiling the most egregious idiots, but I'm going through a phase where I'm not really interested in reading posts by people who have little if anything useful to contribute. That may well be the majority of users here, and if that's the case, then so be it. I was once shocked when a friend of mine, who was once a major contributor to rec.climbing, informed me that he had been killfiling 75% of posters to that newsgroup. Now I understand it.

Jay

Did jay just killfile himself?

In reply to:
Just about everybody who's anybody in this sport uses tick marks, and most sport climbers don't mind climbing a route that has been ticked by someone else

First point, doughtfuly true, seeing as I have watched videos of everybody who's anybody complaining of ticks. And to your second point, not only ticking sport climbers climb the routes that you ticked.

We are not asking you to change everything you do, just to understand and take into concideration others views on a topic.


ajkclay


Sep 13, 2007, 6:59 PM
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jt512 wrote:
most sport climbers don't mind climbing a route that has been ticked by someone else -- in fact, they often prefer it.
Jay
hmmm, most but not all, what about someone wanting to try for an onsight?

jt512 wrote:
Sport climbing is about doing hard moves, not about the spiritual experience of discovering a small foothold.

Perhaps but this still does not justify taking away the onsight potential from someone else.

The "high-end" arguement does not hold because high-end performance is dependent upon many variables which will determine ability on a periodical and regional basis... not even Graham et. al. climb 5.14+ every day of the year on every style of route imaginable, nor are they capable of it. Therefore it is not unreasonable to imagine that someone may well work a route that they find difficult due to point in a training cycle of style of climb that another may wish to attempt onsight...

So, what's the big deal in cleaning tick marks? Geez, someone spends all that energy trying to get up a route over and over again and then what? They don't have the energy left to rub off some chalk?

Adam

PS I think I was in the killfile years ago for being naughty so this really is for the entertainment of the rest of you standing in the corner with me Wink

Incidently, if you are reading this Jay, it really is quite funny that you act so indignant when someone calls you an ass or whatever, asking what exactly you have said in the thread... You do realise that it would be reasonable to be nervous around Ted Bundy even though he is smiling and seems to be in a happy mood don't you? Maybe take yourself off your killfile and read some of your past posts huh?


atpeaceinbozeman


Sep 14, 2007, 8:13 AM
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Anyone else find this interesting?


jt512 wrote:
Technically, the are unnecessary. But without tick marks you would have to spend more time learning the route...to what advantage?


Perhaps it's about the climbing and not the send?

When I think back on a proud redpoint of my own, I'd rather be able to recall the send, the movement, and the experience the route gave me...


jt512


Sep 14, 2007, 4:01 PM
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atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
Anyone else find this interesting?


jt512 wrote:
Technically, the are unnecessary. But without tick marks you would have to spend more time learning the route...to what advantage?


Perhaps it's about the climbing and not the send?

When I think back on a proud redpoint of my own, I'd rather be able to recall the send, the movement, and the experience the route gave me...

Dude, come on, the hardest red point on your tick list is 5.10a!

Jay


Partner angry


Sep 14, 2007, 4:21 PM
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jt512 wrote:
atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
Anyone else find this interesting?


jt512 wrote:
Technically, the are unnecessary. But without tick marks you would have to spend more time learning the route...to what advantage?


Perhaps it's about the climbing and not the send?

When I think back on a proud redpoint of my own, I'd rather be able to recall the send, the movement, and the experience the route gave me...

Dude, come on, the hardest red point on your tick list is 5.10a!

Jay

How would your reply have changed had I written the same thing?


jt512


Sep 14, 2007, 7:00 PM
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angry wrote:
jt512 wrote:
atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
Anyone else find this interesting?


jt512 wrote:
Technically, the are unnecessary. But without tick marks you would have to spend more time learning the route...to what advantage?


Perhaps it's about the climbing and not the send?

When I think back on a proud redpoint of my own, I'd rather be able to recall the send, the movement, and the experience the route gave me...

Dude, come on, the hardest red point on your tick list is 5.10a!

Jay

How would your reply have changed had I written the same thing?

I would have noted that first you'd said it's not about the send, and then you said it was, in the same post.

Jay


microbarn


Sep 14, 2007, 8:34 PM
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jt512 wrote:
angry wrote:
jt512 wrote:
atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
Anyone else find this interesting?


jt512 wrote:
Technically, the are unnecessary. But without tick marks you would have to spend more time learning the route...to what advantage?


Perhaps it's about the climbing and not the send?

When I think back on a proud redpoint of my own, I'd rather be able to recall the send, the movement, and the experience the route gave me...

Dude, come on, the hardest red point on your tick list is 5.10a!

Jay

How would your reply have changed had I written the same thing?

I would have noted that first you'd said it's not about the send, and then you said it was, in the same post.

Jay


Apply it to yourself, and aim for the center.


moose_droppings


Sep 14, 2007, 8:49 PM
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k.l.k wrote:
moose droppings-- yes, a bolt line--and chalked handholds--make a route easier (usually) to read.

Yea I know that.
I was just saying its funny that some people can tell others to ignore a bolt when they can't ignore a tic mark. A sort of fence straddling to me.


notapplicable


Sep 15, 2007, 10:40 AM
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angry wrote:
Did I have a great time on Pervertical? Hell yes, I rode my bike from 6pm to 2am, drove to boulder at 3am. Was in the parking lot by 5am, did the hike in, climbed the route, got cold, got snowed on, got the onsight, nearly fucked myself on rappel, and slept really well that night.


Are you sure about this? What with the tickmark beta and all.Angelic

You might want to change that to a "flash" on your route log.Tongue


Partner angry


Sep 16, 2007, 2:51 AM
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notapplicable wrote:
angry wrote:
Did I have a great time on Pervertical? Hell yes, I rode my bike from 6pm to 2am, drove to boulder at 3am. Was in the parking lot by 5am, did the hike in, climbed the route, got cold, got snowed on, got the onsight, nearly fucked myself on rappel, and slept really well that night.


Are you sure about this? What with the tickmark beta and all.Angelic

You might want to change that to a "flash" on your route log.Tongue

No, you're right. It was impossible to onsight that route in that condition.

Am I 100% sure I could have done it without the ticks, probably, who cares.

Yes Jay, it is a contradiction. For a route in such a pretty setting that is so far below my max, I'm not worried about the send. But still, the ticks took away from the route. Get it? It's clear to me anyway.


notapplicable


Sep 16, 2007, 5:05 AM
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angry wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
angry wrote:
Did I have a great time on Pervertical? Hell yes, I rode my bike from 6pm to 2am, drove to boulder at 3am. Was in the parking lot by 5am, did the hike in, climbed the route, got cold, got snowed on, got the onsight, nearly fucked myself on rappel, and slept really well that night.


Are you sure about this? What with the tickmark beta and all.Angelic

You might want to change that to a "flash" on your route log.Tongue

No, you're right. It was impossible to onsight that route in that condition.

Am I 100% sure I could have done it without the ticks, probably, who cares.

Yes Jay, it is a contradiction. For a route in such a pretty setting that is so far below my max, I'm not worried about the send. But still, the ticks took away from the route. Get it? It's clear to me anyway.

I wouldnt be the least bit ambivalent about taking pride in climbing a route in good style. Some of my most memorable moments on the rock involve onsite climbing (roped or solo).

I think its a climbers obligation to minimize the impact their activities have on the style inwhich another person chooses or would like to climb. If I were in your shoes I would have been ticked off (pardon the pun) as well.


P.S. Yes I use chalk and yes I am a hypocrite. I am addicted to the white powder but am seeking counseling and beg forgiveness for my transgressions.


camhead


Sep 16, 2007, 3:02 PM
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jt512 wrote:
Technically, the are unnecessary. But without tick marks you would have to spend more time learning the route...to what advantage?


uhhh, to the advantage of your overall onsight ability.

trust me.


paintrain


Sep 16, 2007, 7:16 PM
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Wow. I actually plowed through 5 pages of mostly Jay's spew. Yeah, I know. You are going to killfile me. But, I may be the last person left in the world who doesn't agree with you not already on your list.


-Tick marks are AID. If you can't remember moves after working them to death, then you have smoked too much dope. Just climb in the gym. You will never have to wonder where those pesky holds are ever again.

Otherwise admit that your a bit deficient because you can't remember where a hold you have been on 15x is when you are at your MAX (NOTE: for those of you not climbing over 5.10 who don't understand why you need tick marks on climbs "MAX" is short for "maximum" ).

Tick marks are just an excuse to not pay closer attention and use that almost 10% of your brain that supposedly most folks utilize. It is a weakness in your climbing if you rely on them. Example 1: I am better at open handed holds than crimpers ergo I should train more on crimpers to become stonger at crimpers (I used ergo in a sentence). Example 2: I should concentrate on remembering where holds are so I can climb better without someone on the ground with a laser pointer giving me aid or chalk marking 6 pitches of 5.10 @ 13,000 ft.

Try a little Sudoku or maybe a crossword puzzle a couple times a week and you won't need all those tickmarks. Or maybe just train a little harder.

"Sport climbing" (is neither) - sure there are different ethics with grid bolting, packs of dogs running around and wall to wall fixed draws. It is just a climbing "park". I would appreciate leash laws, porta-jons and trash cans at most sport crags too for that matter.


Leave No Trace
-Some of us who get to out of the way alpine places like the ethic of leave no trace. That applies to the route. Alpine/trad climbing = route finding.

Putting tick marks on a 6 pitch trad route at 13,000 ft just shows "the purest style" possible (note heavy sarcasm and nod to previous accused chalk artist quote about style in which delicate arch was not so purely climbed). If you are that worried about soloing a route that you need to chalk mark the hell out of it, maybe you should rethink your objectives??????

PT.


caughtinside


Sep 16, 2007, 7:49 PM
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paintrain wrote:

-Tick marks are AID.

nah.

-Tick marks are BETA.

Unless BETA and AID have become the same thing?


paintrain


Sep 16, 2007, 8:03 PM
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I will grant you not Aid as in physical aid from gear as in aid climbing, but aid in the sense of assistance.

Beta is a form of aid (ie. assistance as a verb, help as a noun).

That is the difference between an Onsight and a flash. It seems no one really cares about the distinction anymore. It is all about the red point (or "pink point" if you have been climbing for a little while).

PT


atpeaceinbozeman


Sep 18, 2007, 9:20 AM
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jt512 wrote:
atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
Anyone else find this interesting?


jt512 wrote:
Technically, the are unnecessary. But without tick marks you would have to spend more time learning the route...to what advantage?


Perhaps it's about the climbing and not the send?

When I think back on a proud redpoint of my own, I'd rather be able to recall the send, the movement, and the experience the route gave me...

Dude, come on, the hardest red point on your tick list is 5.10a!

Jay

Even if .10a was my hardest tick, which it's not, my point remains unchanged.

For me, it's really about the climbing, not spraying about ratings. YMMV


k.l.k


Sep 18, 2007, 10:36 AM
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Back to the OP: As we enter a world in which prepared solos of longer routes become common, we need to make certain that the style of that solo is made clear. Most of us probably won't care if someone preps a solo beforehand, so long as they clean up afterward and are clear that they prepped the thing. My guess is that the soloist in this case will now have an extremely strong incentive (if they didn't before) to be public about the style in which the route was done.

I wished they'd erased the tick marks, but I'm not sure that the marking itself lessens my respect for the performance. When i first heard about tape-marking for long solos in the Dolos, my first thought was sweaty-palmed disbelief that someone would carefully prep a solo so marginal that they needed tick-marks. I can't even imagine setting off into the death zone on something so limit that I felt I needed the footholds outlined.


jt512


Sep 18, 2007, 10:52 AM
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atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
jt512 wrote:
atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
Anyone else find this interesting?


jt512 wrote:
Technically, the are unnecessary. But without tick marks you would have to spend more time learning the route...to what advantage?


Perhaps it's about the climbing and not the send?

When I think back on a proud redpoint of my own, I'd rather be able to recall the send, the movement, and the experience the route gave me...

Dude, come on, the hardest red point on your tick list is 5.10a!

Jay

Even if .10a was my hardest tick, which it's not, my point remains unchanged.

For me, it's really about the climbing, not spraying about ratings. YMMV

Another reasoning-impaired whiner desperately trying to rationalize stagnant performance.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 18, 2007, 10:53 AM)


crankinv9


Sep 18, 2007, 11:05 AM
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so , I'll add my two cents.

I would have been a little bummed to come across a bunch of tick marks on the Diamond but I wouldn't have let ruin a day in the mountains.

I use them when I need them. Some boulder problems have moves that are so fast and steep, you can't see the hold until the very last second and a tick mark will help with your aim.

I usually use a small dot though, I'm not a fan of the racing stripes or worse yet, the double racing stripe.

I have used them on sport climbs but more often for tricky feet, once again a small dot right on top of the hold that usually gets removed by my shoe rubber.

Yeah, I use tick marks, chalk, spray beta, accept beta and generally laugh while I'm out at the boulders or crag, and I have good time too.

Oh yeah, I usually will remove my tick marks, but I would be lying if I said that I removed them all, sometimes I just forget, sorry.


knieveltech


Sep 18, 2007, 11:30 AM
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jt512 wrote:
atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
jt512 wrote:
atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
Anyone else find this interesting?


jt512 wrote:
Technically, the are unnecessary. But without tick marks you would have to spend more time learning the route...to what advantage?

Perhaps it's about the climbing and not the send?

When I think back on a proud redpoint of my own, I'd rather be able to recall the send, the movement, and the experience the route gave me...

Dude, come on, the hardest red point on your tick list is 5.10a!

Jay

Even if .10a was my hardest tick, which it's not, my point remains unchanged.

For me, it's really about the climbing, not spraying about ratings. YMMV

Another reasoning-impaired whiner desperately trying to rationalize stagnant performance.

Jay

Dude, wtf? Spray much?


jt512


Sep 18, 2007, 11:34 AM
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knieveltech wrote:
jt512 wrote:
atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
jt512 wrote:
atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
Anyone else find this interesting?


jt512 wrote:
Technically, the are unnecessary. But without tick marks you would have to spend more time learning the route...to what advantage?

Perhaps it's about the climbing and not the send?

When I think back on a proud redpoint of my own, I'd rather be able to recall the send, the movement, and the experience the route gave me...

Dude, come on, the hardest red point on your tick list is 5.10a!

Jay

Even if .10a was my hardest tick, which it's not, my point remains unchanged.

For me, it's really about the climbing, not spraying about ratings. YMMV

Another reasoning-impaired whiner desperately trying to rationalize stagnant performance.

Jay

Dude, wtf? Spray much?

Being a no-talent nobody myself, I know better than to spray. I just don't rationalize away my weaknesses with pretenses to moral or spiritual superiority.

Jay


ccharles


Sep 18, 2007, 11:39 AM
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I agree with crankinv9's sentiments. I often use tickmarks when bouldering, mostly chalk dots for small granite crystals that are key footholds. I try to brush them off when I am done. Drawing huge lines and then leaving them on the boulder is definitely a little obnoxious, but there have also been times when I am working on a new route and I am happy to have a pre-existing tick mark revealing a key foot or hand hold that makes working out the sequence a bit faster for me.


burrito


Sep 18, 2007, 11:42 AM
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jt512 wrote:
Another reasoning-impaired whiner desperately trying to rationalize stagnant performance.

Jay

Now that's just the epitome of an objective, fact-based statement if I've ever heard one. Crazy

I don't post much on here, and no, before it even comes up as a "reason" for my various shortcomings, I don't climb very hard either. But I call bullshit on that one.

And I also completely agree with atpeaceinbozeman. How can one truly learn to climb if one isn't forced to use his brain in order to do so? Forgive me for enjoying an intellectual as well as a physical challenge, but I don't want the beta handed to me before I've even tried working it out on my own. (It's like highlighting the correct answer on a multiple choice test or something -- what's the point of even asking the question, in that case?) Maybe that makes my progression slower, or maybe it even makes it stagnant (though I highly doubt it), but I'm cool with that. I'm not here to compete with anyone...


atpeaceinbozeman


Sep 18, 2007, 12:28 PM
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jt512 wrote:
Another reasoning-impaired whiner desperately trying to rationalize stagnant performance.


jt512 wrote:
I just don't rationalize away my weaknesses with pretenses to moral or spiritual superiority.

I must have hit a nerve.

I'm just giving my perspective on ticks, and some reasons why some may not appreciate them as much as yourself.

By defining my 'performance' and 'weaknesses' in terms of climbing hard, it reveals more about yourself than you might have realized.

If that's how you define your climbing, fine. I'm not here to tell you how to enjoy yourself.

Cheers

edited for clarity (thanks shockabuku )


(This post was edited by atpeaceinbozeman on Sep 18, 2007, 12:37 PM)


shockabuku


Sep 18, 2007, 12:34 PM
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atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Another reasoning-impaired whiner desperately trying to rationalize stagnant performance.


jt512 wrote:
I just don't rationalize away my weaknesses with pretenses to moral or spiritual superiority.

I must have (not "of") hit a nerve.

I'm just giving my perspective on ticks, and some reasons why some may not appreciate them as much as yourself.

By defining my 'performance' and 'weaknesses' in terms of climbing hard, it reveals more about yourself than you might have (again) realized.

If that's how you define your climbing, fine. I'm not here to tell you how to enjoy yourself.

Cheers

Bold and italics mine.


tavs


Sep 18, 2007, 1:01 PM
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jt512 wrote:
atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
jt512 wrote:
atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
Anyone else find this interesting?


jt512 wrote:
Technically, the are unnecessary. But without tick marks you would have to spend more time learning the route...to what advantage?


Perhaps it's about the climbing and not the send?

When I think back on a proud redpoint of my own, I'd rather be able to recall the send, the movement, and the experience the route gave me...

Dude, come on, the hardest red point on your tick list is 5.10a!

Jay

Even if .10a was my hardest tick, which it's not, my point remains unchanged.

For me, it's really about the climbing, not spraying about ratings. YMMV

Another reasoning-impaired whiner desperately trying to rationalize stagnant performance.

Jay

Ahh yes, the old "if you give any reason for climbing other than sending hard(er), you must be lying" argument. Thanks for the killfile program, Jay--you're about to become my first.


jt512


Sep 18, 2007, 3:56 PM
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atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Another reasoning-impaired whiner desperately trying to rationalize stagnant performance.


jt512 wrote:
I just don't rationalize away my weaknesses with pretenses to moral or spiritual superiority.

I must have hit a nerve.

I'm just giving my perspective on ticks, and some reasons why some may not appreciate them as much as yourself.

By defining my 'performance' and 'weaknesses' in terms of climbing hard, it reveals more about yourself than you might have realized.

If that's how you define your climbing, fine. I'm not here to tell you how to enjoy yourself.

Cheers

edited for clarity (thanks shockabuku )

Pretty much everybody in every sport tries to get better. You don't see gymnasts saying, I'm happy with an 8 on the parallel bars, because I like the movement. The is primarily a climbing phenomenon, whereby weak climbers pretend that staying weak and climbing at moderate levels is on a higher spiritual plane than trying to actually improve one's climbing. They call the latter "number chasing" in a thinly veiled attempt to make themselves feel better about their own inability or laziness. Your holier-than-thou, "if that's how you define your climbing, blah, blah, blah," is precisely what I'm talking about. Incredibly, you've actually convinced yourself of the moral superiority of mediocre performance. Amazing.

Edit: And now that your grammar has been corrected you change your post and note that it has been "edited for 'clarity'." You can't even be honest with yourself about your writing ability.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 18, 2007, 4:01 PM)


Partner angry


Sep 18, 2007, 4:11 PM
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So why was your post edited Jay?

You make a great point, I LOVE to get better. I fucking love it. In fact, I thrive off of it. Climbing isn't all numbers but god damn, it's great to send something harder than I've sent before. Or to be immersed in a route knowing full well that this, this very moment in time, is the hardest climbing I've ever done. God it's great.

Why do I need tickmarks for that?


jt512


Sep 18, 2007, 4:14 PM
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angry wrote:
So why was your post edited Jay?

Has your reading comprehension deteriorated, too?

Jay


Partner angry


Sep 18, 2007, 4:24 PM
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Yep, I guess it has a little. I didn't read the "edit" just the rest of your nonsense.

You remind of the speech and debate kid in high school. You know the one. He's very self assured and likes to argue every point, whether right or wrong, just to argue. The little bitches would argue that the earth was flat just to hear themselves debate. Great if you're on the team, but life isn't a debate meet.

I only ever found one way to shut them up, "shut your mouth or I'll shut it for you". Crude I know, but I never had to actually shut anyone's mouth. At 5'7" and 125lbs, I was pretty intimidating, let me tell you...

Fuck you and your tick marks. Eat my ass!!


camhead


Sep 18, 2007, 4:44 PM
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Angry, it is a well known fact that only anti-semites go chalkless...


glytch


Sep 18, 2007, 4:46 PM
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angry wrote:
Yep, I guess it has a little. I didn't read the "edit" just the rest of your nonsense.

You remind of the speech and debate kid in high school. You know the one. He's very self assured and likes to argue every point, whether right or wrong, just to argue. The little bitches would argue that the earth was flat just to hear themselves debate. Great if you're on the team, but life isn't a debate meet.

I only ever found one way to shut them up, "shut your mouth or I'll shut it for you". Crude I know, but I never had to actually shut anyone's mouth. At 5'7" and 125lbs, I was pretty intimidating, let me tell you...

Fuck you and your tick marks. Eat my ass!!

Damn, I love this thread.


jt512


Sep 18, 2007, 4:49 PM
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angry wrote:
Yep, I guess it has a little. I didn't read the "edit" just the rest of your nonsense.

You remind of the speech and debate kid in high school. You know the one. He's very self assured and likes to argue every point, whether right or wrong, just to argue.

I don't know why you think that applies to my stating a banal fact about climber using tick marks.

Jay


atpeaceinbozeman


Sep 18, 2007, 5:41 PM
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jt512 wrote:

Pretty much everybody in every sport tries to get better. You don't see gymnasts saying, I'm happy with an 8 on the parallel bars, because I like the movement.

No, I was saying your redpoint gets an 8 because you ticked the holds.

If you reflect on your favorite climb, is it the hardest one you've sent?


jt512


Sep 18, 2007, 5:50 PM
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atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
If you reflect on your favorite climb, is it the hardest one you've sent?

It's within the top few.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 18, 2007, 5:51 PM)


Johnny_Fang


Sep 18, 2007, 5:53 PM
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I've been lurking for about two and a half years now. I check the page several times a day. I've posted maybe... what? Once? Never? Not sure. This thread, though is sooo compelling that I just HAVE to say three things.

First: Yes, tick marks are unsolicited beta and about as welcome as someone walking below you and shouting "Crimper to the right! Crimper to the right! Now gaston!" EVERYONE hates that guy. I mean EVERYONE.

Second: Why is everyone always so mean to Majid when Jay is clearly the biggest ass on here? Majid is just a harmless doofus who is good for some laughs, but Jay... well... Jay seems just plain intentional about his mean spiritedness. His inability to perform in social situations seems almost like Asperger's syndrome or Autism.

Third: I'm bouncing with pride that one of my first posts has earned me a spot on Jay's killfile. Not many people can say that.

And now, back to lurking. I'll post again in two and a half years, maybe.


shockabuku


Sep 18, 2007, 6:29 PM
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After deciding that local ethics should dictate the use of tick marks just like other questions of ethics, I decided to ask the smartest person I know, my 15 year old daughter who is a sport climber (predominantly gym) and boulderer. She said, 'tick marks are great' or something to that effect, and then followed that up with 'but they should be removed because some people don't like them.' How thoughtful. Just for the record she doesn't climb quite as hard as Jay, but she's getting there and she is chasing the numbers.


flint


Sep 18, 2007, 6:37 PM
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jt512 wrote:
angry wrote:
Yep, I guess it has a little. I didn't read the "edit" just the rest of your nonsense.

You remind of the speech and debate kid in high school. You know the one. He's very self assured and likes to argue every point, whether right or wrong, just to argue.

I don't know why you think that applies to my stating a banal fact about climber using tick marks.

Jay

I don't know why you think that applies to my stating an anal fact about climbers using tick marks.

Thought I would join in the editing fun. Unfortunately, Jay won't see this as I have been moved to the killfile corner as well. Damn it is getting crowded.

Edit: Thanks Moose


(This post was edited by flint on Sep 18, 2007, 7:24 PM)


moose_droppings


Sep 18, 2007, 7:02 PM
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flint wrote:
jt512 wrote:
angry wrote:
Yep, I guess it has a little. I didn't read the "edit" just the rest of your nonsense.

You remind of the speech and debate kid in high school. You know the one. He's very self assured and likes to argue every point, whether right or wrong, just to argue.

I don't know why you think that applies to my stating an anal fact about climbers using tick marks.

Jay

Thought I would join in the editing fun. Unfortunately, Jay won't see this as I have been moved to the killfile corner as well. Damn it is getting crowded.

You really ought to add what you changed that someone said. It wouldn't be fair to Jay if some one else thought he had said anal and you just highlighted it. It just helps keeps things straight on down the line for some that maybe didn't read the whole thread.

Anyone else need some popcorn while I'm up?
Smile


(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Sep 18, 2007, 7:03 PM)


jt512


Sep 18, 2007, 7:05 PM
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moose_droppings wrote:
flint wrote:
jt512 wrote:
angry wrote:
Yep, I guess it has a little. I didn't read the "edit" just the rest of your nonsense.

You remind of the speech and debate kid in high school. You know the one. He's very self assured and likes to argue every point, whether right or wrong, just to argue.

I don't know why you think that applies to my stating an anal fact about climbers using tick marks.

Jay

Thought I would join in the editing fun. Unfortunately, Jay won't see this as I have been moved to the killfile corner as well. Damn it is getting crowded.

You really ought to add what you changed that someone said. It wouldn't be fair to Jay if some one else thought he had said anal and you just highlighted it.

Yep. Intentional misquoting "for fun" was explicitly against the Terms of Service on the old site. Flint, please edit or delete your post.

Jay


k.l.k


Sep 18, 2007, 7:15 PM
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Part of the problem here is terms. What do "performance" and numbers" mean? For jt512, they refer to redpoint ability. For atpeaceinbozeman, they refer to onsight ability. Climbing only pre-tickmarked routes may indeed help you speed up your redpoints. Climbing only pre-tickmarked routes will mess up your ability to onsight.

Jt512 is being dogmatic here for effect (or maybe just for fun). Since he is a big proponent of "The Self-Coached Climber," he already understands that climbing and training are highly sport-specific, and that climbing only pre-tickmarked routes trains one to look for and use tickmarks. Since he wants to redpoint projects as quickly as possible, on local crags that are eternally tickmarked, that works pretty well. But he obviously also understands that climbing only on pre-tickmarked routes will weaken one's ability to read natural rock quickly and efficiently without tickmarks, hence reducing one's ability to put up big numbers onsighting. Moreover, since he also understands that working a weakness will do far more for one's abilities than working on a strength, and that most climbers now come from gym backgrounds and have more difficulty with reading natural rock (for footholds or pro placements) than with their movement vocabularies, he also must understand that climbing only pre-tickmarked routes would cut against the training principles that he has upheld elsewhere on this forum.


flint


Sep 18, 2007, 7:35 PM
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jt512 wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
flint wrote:
jt512 wrote:
angry wrote:
Yep, I guess it has a little. I didn't read the "edit" just the rest of your nonsense.

You remind of the speech and debate kid in high school. You know the one. He's very self assured and likes to argue every point, whether right or wrong, just to argue.

I don't know why you think that applies to my stating an anal fact about climbers using tick marks.

Jay

Thought I would join in the editing fun. Unfortunately, Jay won't see this as I have been moved to the killfile corner as well. Damn it is getting crowded.

You really ought to add what you changed that someone said. It wouldn't be fair to Jay if some one else thought he had said anal and you just highlighted it.

Yep. Intentional misquoting "for fun" was explicitly against the Terms of Service on the old site. Flint, please edit or delete your post.

Jay

Yes, on the old site. Are you not the one that was expressing the need for another to question their writing ability. Further more, it was just a joke, lets all play with a lighter heart and a little thicker skin.

j-


microbarn


Sep 18, 2007, 7:36 PM
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jt512 wrote:
Pretty much everybody in every sport tries to get better. You don't see gymnasts saying, I'm happy with an 8 on the parallel bars, because I like the movement. The is primarily a climbing phenomenon, whereby weak climbers pretend that staying weak and climbing at moderate levels is on a higher spiritual plane than trying to actually improve one's climbing. They call the latter "number chasing" in a thinly veiled attempt to make themselves feel better about their own inability or laziness. Your holier-than-thou, "if that's how you define your climbing, blah, blah, blah," is precisely what I'm talking about. Incredibly, you've actually convinced yourself of the moral superiority of mediocre performance. Amazing.

Edit: And now that your grammar has been corrected you change your post and note that it has been "edited for 'clarity'." You can't even be honest with yourself about your writing ability.

Jay

You can't be deluding yourself that much.

Every adult or seniors team I have ever encountered has the mentality of just playing for fun. Sure, they all look to improve, but they don't delude themselves into thinking they will make the olympics next year either. Climbers that don't chase numbers are looking to improve, but they aren't looking to go pro either. Every sport has a similar group that participate for fun.


jt512


Sep 18, 2007, 7:38 PM
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k.l.k wrote:
Part of the problem here is terms. What do "performance" and numbers" mean? For jt512, they refer to redpoint ability. For atpeaceinbozeman, they refer to onsight ability. Climbing only pre-tickmarked routes may indeed help you speed up your redpoints. Climbing only pre-tickmarked routes will mess up your ability to onsight.

Jt512 is being dogmatic here for effect (or maybe just for fun). Since he is a big proponent of "The Self-Coached Climber," he already understands that climbing and training are highly sport-specific, and that climbing only pre-tickmarked routes trains one to look for and use tickmarks. Since he wants to redpoint projects as quickly as possible, on local crags that are eternally tickmarked, that works pretty well. But he obviously also understands that climbing only on pre-tickmarked routes will weaken one's ability to read natural rock quickly and efficiently without tickmarks, hence reducing one's ability to put up big numbers onsighting. Moreover, since he also understands that working a weakness will do far more for one's abilities than working on a strength, and that most climbers now come from gym backgrounds and have more difficulty with reading natural rock (for footholds or pro placements) than with their movement vocabularies, he also must understand that climbing only pre-tickmarked routes would cut against the training principles that he has upheld elsewhere on this forum.

What he said.

Jay


ajkclay


Sep 18, 2007, 7:46 PM
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angry wrote:
Yep, I guess it has a little. I didn't read the "edit" just the rest of your nonsense.

You remind of the speech and debate kid in high school. You know the one. He's very self assured and likes to argue every point, whether right or wrong, just to argue. The little bitches would argue that the earth was flat just to hear themselves debate. Great if you're on the team, but life isn't a debate meet.

I only ever found one way to shut them up, "shut your mouth or I'll shut it for you". Crude I know, but I never had to actually shut anyone's mouth. At 5'7" and 125lbs, I was pretty intimidating, let me tell you...

Fuck you and your tick marks. Eat my ass!!

Fuck man! That's some funny shit right there! (accurate too)

Laugh Adam


ajkclay


Sep 18, 2007, 7:55 PM
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jt512 wrote:
angry wrote:
Yep, I guess it has a little. I didn't read the "edit" just the rest of your nonsense.

You remind of the speech and debate kid in high school. You know the one. He's very self assured and likes to argue every point, whether right or wrong, just to argue.

I don't know why you think that applies to my stating a banal fact about climber using tick marks.

Jay

Jay, more and more I am noticing a trend in your posts:

You become involved in an argument and a point for point quote war ensues...

Then, amazingly when someone tells you that you are a smart-ass know-it-all you protest, feigning ignorance on how this one incident has made people say something so unfair...

Dude, with a history like yours I find it difficult to understand how you think you can defend such a stance... you act exactly the way angry has described in just about every thread I have seen you post...

You may not think you are a smart-ass, but from your post-history and modus-operandi, everyone else does.

... and that's the way it always is with the speech and debate kid in high-school... he thinks that being right about everything will make him really popular when in actual fact it's the reason that everyone else gives him wedgies!

Cheers,

Adam

PS unless someone quotes this, he'll never see it (I'm a JT killfile veteran)


moose_droppings


Sep 18, 2007, 8:08 PM
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ajkclay wrote:
jt512 wrote:
angry wrote:
Yep, I guess it has a little. I didn't read the "edit" just the rest of your nonsense.

You remind of the speech and debate kid in high school. You know the one. He's very self assured and likes to argue every point, whether right or wrong, just to argue.

I don't know why you think that applies to my stating a banal fact about climber using tick marks.

Jay

Jay, more and more I am noticing a trend in your posts:

You become involved in an argument and a point for point quote war ensues...

Then, amazingly when someone tells you that you are a smart-ass know-it-all you protest, feigning ignorance on how this one incident has made people say something so unfair...

Dude, with a history like yours I find it difficult to understand how you think you can defend such a stance... you act exactly the way angry has described in just about every thread I have seen you post...

You may not think you are a smart-ass, but from your post-history and modus-operandi, everyone else does.

... and that's the way it always is with the speech and debate kid in high-school... he thinks that being right about everything will make him really popular when in actual fact it's the reason that everyone else gives him wedgies!

Cheers,

Adam

PS unless someone quotes this, he'll never see it (I'm a JT killfile veteran)


mbg


Sep 18, 2007, 8:11 PM
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(Note to self: no posting after more than one adult beverage.)


(This post was edited by mbg on Sep 18, 2007, 8:35 PM)


Partner macherry


Sep 18, 2007, 8:11 PM
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flint wrote:
jt512 wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
flint wrote:
jt512 wrote:
angry wrote:
Yep, I guess it has a little. I didn't read the "edit" just the rest of your nonsense.

You remind of the speech and debate kid in high school. You know the one. He's very self assured and likes to argue every point, whether right or wrong, just to argue.

I don't know why you think that applies to my stating an anal fact about climbers using tick marks.

Jay

Thought I would join in the editing fun. Unfortunately, Jay won't see this as I have been moved to the killfile corner as well. Damn it is getting crowded.

You really ought to add what you changed that someone said. It wouldn't be fair to Jay if some one else thought he had said anal and you just highlighted it.

Yep. Intentional misquoting "for fun" was explicitly against the Terms of Service on the old site. Flint, please edit or delete your post.

Jay

Yes, on the old site. Are you not the one that was expressing the need for another to question their writing ability. Further more, it was just a joke, lets all play with a lighter heart and a little thicker skin.

j-

Misquoting is not allowed on rc.com............joke or not. Please change your quote flint.


shockabuku


Sep 18, 2007, 8:35 PM
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Re: [macherry] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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macherry wrote:
flint wrote:
jt512 wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
flint wrote:
jt512 wrote:
angry wrote:
Yep, I guess it has a little. I didn't read the "edit" just the rest of your nonsense.

You remind of the speech and debate kid in high school. You know the one. He's very self assured and likes to argue every point, whether right or wrong, just to argue.

I don't know why you think that applies to my stating an anal fact about climbers using tick marks.

Jay

Thought I would join in the editing fun. Unfortunately, Jay won't see this as I have been moved to the killfile corner as well. Damn it is getting crowded.

You really ought to add what you changed that someone said. It wouldn't be fair to Jay if some one else thought he had said anal and you just highlighted it.

Yep. Intentional misquoting "for fun" was explicitly against the Terms of Service on the old site. Flint, please edit or delete your post.

Jay

Yes, on the old site. Are you not the one that was expressing the need for another to question their writing ability. Further more, it was just a joke, lets all play with a lighter heart and a little thicker skin.

j-

Misquoting is not allowed on rc.com............joke or not. Please change your quote flint.

What about quoting someone who you know misquoted someone else?


mtnfr34k


Sep 18, 2007, 11:30 PM
Post #143 of 317 (7762 views)
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Re: [shockabuku] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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I'm more than a little surprised that I agree with Jay on this - ticking is certainly acceptable at most crags that I climb at. And for the record, I climb annually at Smith, Clark Canyon, and Owen River Gorge, where I see it most often. And I've also seen it at Indian Creek, and at several small local crags in Washington and California.
Personally, I'm working on a trad route, and using tick marks to remind myself where gear goes best, since its thin and some placements will have to be blind (meaning I can't visually inspect them until several moves after placing them).
I've never used tick marks placed by others - I've only worked a few routes, but when I do, I have scrubbed any prior ticks and chalk off of holds so that I can figure out the best moves for are for my height and reach, and then leave ticks on the appropriate holds. I can't imagine my SO and I using the same ticks (we're a foot different in height and reach), and I can't imagine climbing onto a route relying on some stranger's ticks to show me the way.
Ticks aren't acceptable? I can remember seeing ticks in the video of Eric Decaria climbing Air Sweden in Moab, Beth Rodden climbing a FA in Smith, Sharma on Realization. Just flip through a mag, and you'll see countless examples of it in adds and photos. Go bouldering, and you'll see it everywhere (I think the word is ubiquitous). In fact, I think the popularity with ticks stemmed from the rise of bouldering (it makes sense, but I'm not certain). Since I'm OK with someone ticking a 6-hold problem in the Buttermilks, it only follows that it will happen on a 60-move bolt line in the Gorge.
I just don't see it being such a problem to deserve the pissing match that has gone on here, but I'm amused to contribute my two cents!Tongue
Chris


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Sep 19, 2007, 6:39 AM
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Re: [jt512] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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Fuck you, Jay. I climb primarily for the love of climbing. Your claim that the love I feel is a delusion, and that climbing is simply about a desire for higher numbers is a slap in the face, and debasement of something you either don't understand, or don't respect.

Improvement is a small reason for why I, and many people I know, climb. If you can't appreciate much beyond that drive for numbers, fine. But don't claim that it's weakness or self-delusion.

GO


microbarn


Sep 19, 2007, 7:18 AM
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Re: [ajkclay] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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ajkclay wrote:
PS unless someone quotes this, he'll never see it (I'm a JT killfile veteran)
Unless I am mistaken, his kill file also erases things in quotes too. So, he still won't see it. I don't know though because I don't use it.

In any case, a quote by someone else in the killfile (me) still won't change things. It would be just as invisible. Smile


Partner macherry


Sep 19, 2007, 7:37 AM
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Re: [cracklover] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
Fuck you, Jay. I climb primarily for the love of climbing. Your claim that the love I feel is a delusion, and that climbing is simply about a desire for higher numbers is a slap in the face, and debasement of something you either don't understand, or don't respect.

Improvement is a small reason for why I, and many people I know, climb. If you can't appreciate much beyond that drive for numbers, fine. But don't claim that it's weakness or self-delusion.

GO

thanks for summing up why i climb....much like why i ski!!!


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Sep 19, 2007, 11:23 AM
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Re: [macherry] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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While you guys have been arguing about this, I went ahead and scrubbed off the tick marks on all of your projects, and then flashed them.


Clean up your ticks.


Partner cracklover


Sep 19, 2007, 2:00 PM
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Re: [sevrdhed] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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By the way, I've been sport climbing a bit more than usual lately. And thanks, Jay, for the useful tips in that venue. Anyway, last time I was at the local sport crag, I did two routes that were pretty hard for me. The easier one I managed to onsight, despite it having very tricky and devious sequences. I enjoyed the climb, and was proud of that onsight. It was not ticked up. The harder climb was all ticked up. There were clearly several tickers, as there was definitely more than one sequence that had been ticked. Again, I had to find my own way, although this time some of the hidden holds were pointed out to me.

I can't really say that the ticks bothered me. Both climbs were just mid-level sport routes, with every hold caked in chalk. Plus, on the second route, it was a bit too hard for me to onsight. But I can appreciate how someone looking to have the experience I'd had on the first route - to work out the moves themselves, might have been distracted by the tick marks on the second climb, and had them blow the onsight, either by being drawn in the wrong direction and falling, or drawn in the right direction and succeeding (but not without beta).

Anyway, I guess I'd care more on a trad route in a pristine setting, like the OP suggests.

GO


golsen


Sep 19, 2007, 2:15 PM
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Re: [cracklover] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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Jay should save his breath for this discussion, he will need it to blow up his date...


fenix83
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Sep 19, 2007, 2:20 PM
Post #150 of 317 (7548 views)
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Re: [jt512] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Pretty much everybody in every sport tries to get better. You don't see gymnasts saying, I'm happy with an 8 on the parallel bars, because I like the movement.

If a gymnast gets an 8 on parallel bars s/he is competitive and therefore by definition chasing numbers in at least that facet of gymnastics, hardly an appropriate comparison to a sport in which a large number of people never compete.

jt512 wrote:
The is primarily a climbing phenomenon, whereby weak climbers pretend that staying weak and climbing at moderate levels is on a higher spiritual plane than trying to actually improve one's climbing. They call the latter "number chasing" in a thinly veiled attempt to make themselves feel better about their own inability or laziness.

Horseshit, "number chasing" is about attitude, not about which number you happen to be chasing. I have met .10 number chasers and .13 number chasers, I have also met some very laid back climbers who climbed at all sorts of grades. IMO a number chaser is a person who tries to improve just for the sake of the grade (and usually the spray), not as a natural part of doing what they love, not to have access to more routes or to a specific climb they want to do.

Your response to a previous poster was something to the effect of "your hardest climb is a 5.10". This, to me, is a number-chasers expression. The grade of the climb has very little, if anything, to do with the intensity of the experience.

jt512 wrote:
Your holier-than-thou, "if that's how you define your climbing, blah, blah, blah," is precisely what I'm talking about. Incredibly, you've actually convinced yourself of the moral superiority of mediocre performance. Amazing.

Do I enjoy progress and improvement in my climbing, yes of course I do. Does climbing at my limit (whatever the limit might be at that point) have a particular allure and reward, definitely. However, the grade of the climb is hardly a defining factor in my opinion of said climb, rarely a reason a choose to climb it and not necessarily correlated to the intensity/enjoyment of the experience (same applies to climbers).

Each person climbs for a different reason, those who climb solely/mostly to "conquer grade" are number chasers (and IMO are missing out on a huge part of the experience), it doesn't mean those of us who don't chase numbers are lazy or mediocre.

-F

PD: As to tick marks, they can be extremely annoying and I rarely find them useful (I've actually been confused by them more times than I have been assisted by them).

Whether you choose to tick or not is your own choice, but in most scenarios I would appreciate you removing your ticks and giving me the same choice.

Granted, if the tick marks are discrete and properly made (not huge sploches, easily removed and not on every damn hold all the way up) I rarely consider them anything more than a nuisance.

-F


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Sep 19, 2007, 2:37 PM
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Re: [ajkclay] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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ajkclay wrote:
jt512 wrote:
angry wrote:
Yep, I guess it has a little. I didn't read the "edit" just the rest of your nonsense.

You remind of the speech and debate kid in high school. You know the one. He's very self assured and likes to argue every point, whether right or wrong, just to argue.

I don't know why you think that applies to my stating a banal fact about climber using tick marks.

Jay

Jay, more and more I am noticing a trend in your posts:

You become involved in an argument and a point for point quote war ensues...

Then, amazingly when someone tells you that you are a smart-ass know-it-all you protest, feigning ignorance on how this one incident has made people say something so unfair...

Dude, with a history like yours I find it difficult to understand how you think you can defend such a stance... you act exactly the way angry has described in just about every thread I have seen you post...

You may not think you are a smart-ass, but from your post-history and modus-operandi, everyone else does.

... and that's the way it always is with the speech and debate kid in high-school... he thinks that being right about everything will make him really popular when in actual fact it's the reason that everyone else gives him wedgies!

Cheers,

Adam

PS unless someone quotes this, he'll never see it (I'm a JT killfile veteran)

I see not much has changed here. ...sigh
rd


sidepull


Sep 19, 2007, 2:53 PM
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Re: [sevrdhed] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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sevrdhed wrote:
While you guys have been arguing about this, I went ahead and scrubbed off the tick marks on all of your projects, and then flashed them.


Clean up your ticks.

Trophy!


jt512


Sep 19, 2007, 3:05 PM
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fenix83 wrote:

Your response to a previous poster was something to the effect of "your hardest climb is a 5.10". This, to me, is a number-chasers expression. The grade of the climb has very little, if anything, to do with the intensity of the experience.

Neither of you 5.10a climbers is in a position to understand why climbers tick holds. That's why I mentioned the previous climbers climbing level, and that's why I'm mentioning yours.

When you are climbing at that level, you'd hardly ever find a tick mark useful. I don't think I ever ticked a hold on a 5.9 or 5.10 route, even when those levels were difficult for me. When you get on harder routes, things change, and tick marks are very helpful in helping to quickly identify your holds, especially obscure footholds or subtle "sweet spots." At the 5.9 and 5.10- levels quickly identifying small holds is usually not a factor for success. Using the holds effectively is, and tick marks won't help you with that. This is so simple and banal that a heated argument like this could only take place here on n00b.com.

Jay


caughtinside


Sep 19, 2007, 3:15 PM
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The biggest tick mark I ever saw was 4" long and located a hidden jug on a 5.6 trad climb. (coincidentally my first trad climb ever) Totally ridiculous.

i have nothing real to add to this silly discussion. I've used ticks, on both sport and trad climbs. My ticks are just a dot of chalk, a quick identifier. Mostly for feet, which means that they 'self-clean' as I step on them.

I have left ticks on a sequence intensive sport climb before. The first thing I did after I sent was remove them all with spit and a brush to make it harder for the next guy. I ain't givin' that beta away! hahahaha


fenix83
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Sep 19, 2007, 3:18 PM
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Re: [jt512] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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Jay,

You ignored the bulk of my post, which was directed at your blanket statement regarding number chasing and the motivation to climb except to find a way to drag my 5.10 climbing ability (which you incorrectly assume is my current ability) into the discussion. My comments on you speaking to a previous posters 5.10 ability had nothing to do with my comments about tick marks, which were added quite a bit further.

However....

jt512 wrote:
fenix83 wrote:

Your response to a previous poster was something to the effect of "your hardest climb is a 5.10". This, to me, is a number-chasers expression. The grade of the climb has very little, if anything, to do with the intensity of the experience.

Neither of you 5.10a climbers is in a position to understand why climbers tick holds. That's why I mentioned the previous climbers climbing level, and that's why I'm mentioning yours.

When you are climbing at that level, you'd hardly ever find a tick mark useful. I don't think I ever ticked a hold on a 5.9 or 5.10 route, even when those levels were difficult for me. When you get on harder routes, things change, and tick marks are very helpful in helping to quickly identify your holds, especially obscure footholds or subtle "sweet spots." At the 5.9 and 5.10- levels quickly identifying small holds is usually not a factor for success. Using the holds effectively is, and tick marks won't help you with that. This is so simple and banal that a heated argument like this could only take place here on n00b.com.

Jay

You are fond of pointing out when people contradict themselves, yet you fall into that trap too... (emphasis added)

jt512 wrote:
vegastradguy wrote:
i never understood tickmarks at anything less than the absolute highest levels of climbing, and even then, only on holds that are difficult to see when making a move.

I don't understand why you think tick marks are understandable at only the highest levels of climbing. Tick marks are most helpful when you are climbing at your limit. That is, it's the relative difficulty of the climbing, and not the absolute difficulty, that is relevant.

On difficult redpoints, you tick holds in order to visually identify them quicker, allowing you to climb the route faster, expending less energy, a crucial determinant of redpoint success. Ticks are especially helpful when the hold is difficult to see (eg, a subtle sweet spot on a hold) or its location is confusing (eg, one hold among several nearby similar-looking holds).

In reply to:
and tick marks on cracks make zero sense, except maybe in some very discontinuous 5.14 and up thing that requires a perfect jam in a perfect spot or it doesnt go, and that spot is hard to distinguish from another one.

Again, it's unclear why you think that this is absolute-difficulty based, rather than relative-difficulty based. (snip)


-F


jt512


Sep 19, 2007, 3:32 PM
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fenix83 wrote:
Jay,

You ignored the bulk of my post, which was directed at your blanket statement regarding number chasing and the motivation to climb except to find a way to drag my 5.10 climbing ability (which you incorrectly assume is my current ability) into the discussion. My comments on you speaking to a previous posters 5.10 ability had nothing to do with my comments about tick marks, which were added quite a bit further.

However....

jt512 wrote:
fenix83 wrote:

Your response to a previous poster was something to the effect of "your hardest climb is a 5.10". This, to me, is a number-chasers expression. The grade of the climb has very little, if anything, to do with the intensity of the experience.

Neither of you 5.10a climbers is in a position to understand why climbers tick holds. That's why I mentioned the previous climbers climbing level, and that's why I'm mentioning yours.

When you are climbing at that level, you'd hardly ever find a tick mark useful. I don't think I ever ticked a hold on a 5.9 or 5.10 route, even when those levels were difficult for me. When you get on harder routes, things change, and tick marks are very helpful in helping to quickly identify your holds, especially obscure footholds or subtle "sweet spots." At the 5.9 and 5.10- levels quickly identifying small holds is usually not a factor for success. Using the holds effectively is, and tick marks won't help you with that. This is so simple and banal that a heated argument like this could only take place here on n00b.com.

Jay

You are fond of pointing out when people contradict themselves, yet you fall into that trap too... (emphasis added)

jt512 wrote:
vegastradguy wrote:
i never understood tickmarks at anything less than the absolute highest levels of climbing, and even then, only on holds that are difficult to see when making a move.

I don't understand why you think tick marks are understandable at only the highest levels of climbing. Tick marks are most helpful when you are climbing at your limit. That is, it's the relative difficulty of the climbing, and not the absolute difficulty, that is relevant.

On difficult redpoints, you tick holds in order to visually identify them quicker, allowing you to climb the route faster, expending less energy, a crucial determinant of redpoint success. Ticks are especially helpful when the hold is difficult to see (eg, a subtle sweet spot on a hold) or its location is confusing (eg, one hold among several nearby similar-looking holds).

In reply to:
and tick marks on cracks make zero sense, except maybe in some very discontinuous 5.14 and up thing that requires a perfect jam in a perfect spot or it doesnt go, and that spot is hard to distinguish from another one.

Again, it's unclear why you think that this is absolute-difficulty based, rather than relative-difficulty based. (snip)


-F

True enough, but I wasn't thinking of climbing at 5.10 or below when I made that statement. Sure, people tick 5.9 handhold's for their girlfriends...

Jay


milominderbinder


Sep 19, 2007, 4:00 PM
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Well, I'll just go ahead and throw my opinion out there, cos why not:

I'm breaking into the 12's, and every time I find tick marks on a route I find it irritating. Part of the enjoyment in climbing for me is figuring everything out for myself, tick marks rob me of that.

They admittedly can allow you to send a route faster, as you don't have to spend as much time wiring the moves, but I just call that laziness. You just don't want to put in the time to really learn the route and its movements.

This last part, figuring out the puzzle that is a route, is in some sense what the whole point is. Short-cuts are for things that I don't like (like homework)...I climb because I find it fun, I don't want the easy way.


jt512


Sep 19, 2007, 4:04 PM
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