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petsfed


Sep 12, 2007, 9:34 AM
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If your tick marks look like anything more than you accidentally touched the rock with your finger, you're doin' it wrong. 2 inch lines, circles, the words "good fucking crimp" scrawled on the rock? All of them are wrong.


wonderwoman


Sep 12, 2007, 9:39 AM
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Here's an idea... Everyone in this forum can vow to go chalk free from here on in! You can go first, and since there's nothing to climb in Florida, you can walk the talk when you climb the rock!


Partner baja_java


Sep 12, 2007, 9:56 AM
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actually, you can go chalkfree in CA, AZ, CO, UT, or anywhere

and you don't have to vow. you can just do it


Gmburns2000


Sep 12, 2007, 9:57 AM
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Just a curious noob question: does using my lime-green spray paint to mark all the holds on a 5.4 project count? It doesn't come off easily, but it will over time. Just wondering.


wonderwoman


Sep 12, 2007, 10:05 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
Just a curious noob question: does using my lime-green spray paint to mark all the holds on a 5.4 project count? It doesn't come off easily, but it will over time. Just wondering.

Ah... a true quincy quarries climber!


moose_droppings


Sep 12, 2007, 10:11 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
Just a curious noob question: does using my lime-green spray paint to mark all the holds on a 5.4 project count? It doesn't come off easily, but it will over time. Just wondering.

Great color, it looks as natural as some mosses. Don't worry if it doesn't come off easy.

I prefer bolts instead of tick marks. Everyone can find these and no one complains about them.


Gmburns2000


Sep 12, 2007, 10:14 AM
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wonderwoman wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
Just a curious noob question: does using my lime-green spray paint to mark all the holds on a 5.4 project count? It doesn't come off easily, but it will over time. Just wondering.

Ah... a true quincy quarries climber!

Gotta love how the direct start of Ladder Line is totally mapped out in gold now. I should be able to run right up that sucker. Tongue Tic marks are fun! Yea!


drjghl


Sep 12, 2007, 10:35 AM
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I'm not sure if my idea of a tick mark is the same as everyone else.

Holds will get chalked up from use. These aren't tick marks to me. I think most climbers inspect all features within reach (chalked and nonchalked) before making a move. Holds gets chalked while searching. Inevitable. But marking features for foot placements seems wrong. And this last action is what I think of as ticking.


wmfork


Sep 12, 2007, 12:40 PM
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These were NOT holds that got chalked up from use. In all fairness, most of the tick marks on the route probably won't survive the winter (or a month), but still... It was kind of annoying, but then we also didn't get off-route.


jt512


Sep 12, 2007, 2:40 PM
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vegastradguy wrote:
i never understood tickmarks at anything less than the absolute highest levels of climbing, and even then, only on holds that are difficult to see when making a move.

I don't understand why you think tick marks are understandable at only the highest levels of climbing. Tick marks are most helpful when you are climbing at your limit. That is, it's the relative difficulty of the climbing, and not the absolute difficulty, that is relevant.

On difficult redpoints, you tick holds in order to visually identify them quicker, allowing you to climb the route faster, expending less energy, a crucial determinant of redpoint success. Ticks are especially helpful when the hold is difficult to see (eg, a subtle sweet spot on a hold) or its location is confusing (eg, one hold among several nearby similar-looking holds).

In reply to:
and tick marks on cracks make zero sense, except maybe in some very discontinuous 5.14 and up thing that requires a perfect jam in a perfect spot or it doesnt go, and that spot is hard to distinguish from another one.

Again, it's unclear why you think that this is absolute-difficulty based, rather than relative-difficulty based. On Digital Watch in J-Tree (5.11b-R), I ticked a crucial placement, the only spot in the finger crack where I could place a blue Alien to protect the crux from a ground fall. Had I not been able to find this one exact spot on redpoint, I would have had to place a black Alien instead, not exactly the piece I want between me and death. Although the tick mark was important to me, a 5.14 climber wouldn't have needed it, either because he would have had the experience to easily spot the placement, or he would be satisfied with a black Alien because he would expect not to fall on 5.11b.

Jay


vegastradguy


Sep 12, 2007, 5:05 PM
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jt512 wrote:
vegastradguy wrote:
i never understood tickmarks at anything less than the absolute highest levels of climbing, and even then, only on holds that are difficult to see when making a move.

I don't understand why you think tick marks are understandable at only the highest levels of climbing. Tick marks are most helpful when you are climbing at your limit. That is, it's the relative difficulty of the climbing, and not the absolute difficulty, that is relevant.

personally, i think that if you're redpointing, the route should be so dialed that a tick mark would be unnecessary- tick marks are for projecting at best, and even then i still think they're unnecessary for the most part.



In reply to:
In reply to:
and tick marks on cracks make zero sense, except maybe in some very discontinuous 5.14 and up thing that requires a perfect jam in a perfect spot or it doesnt go, and that spot is hard to distinguish from another one.

Again, it's unclear why you think that this is absolute-difficulty based, rather than relative-difficulty based. On Digital Watch in J-Tree (5.11b-R), I ticked a crucial placement, the only spot in the finger crack where I could place a blue Alien to protect the crux from a ground fall. Had I not been able to find this one exact spot on redpoint, I would have had to place a black Alien instead, not exactly the piece I want between me and death. Although the tick mark was important to me, a 5.14 climber wouldn't have needed it, either because he would have had the experience to easily spot the placement, or he would be satisfied with a black Alien because he would expect not to fall on 5.11b.

Jay
its difficulty based because my perception is that at the highest levels of climbing, the holds are harder to see. combine this with my personal experience on routes up to the .12ish range and there you go.

however, upon further consideration, i think i'll retract my above examples- tick marks are unnecessary- and if you find them necessary, you should 1) re-evaluate your climbing ability and 2) clean up after yourself.

as for your example- if its too hard for you to place gear on...maybe you should wait to climb it when you're stronger.


jt512


Sep 12, 2007, 10:07 PM
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vegastradguy wrote:
jt512 wrote:
vegastradguy wrote:
i never understood tickmarks at anything less than the absolute highest levels of climbing, and even then, only on holds that are difficult to see when making a move.

I don't understand why you think tick marks are understandable at only the highest levels of climbing. Tick marks are most helpful when you are climbing at your limit. That is, it's the relative difficulty of the climbing, and not the absolute difficulty, that is relevant.

personally, i think that if you're redpointing, the route should be so dialed that a tick mark would be unnecessary-

What rational basis, if any, do you have for such a rule? Sounds to me like an arbitrary personal preference that you are attempting to magnify into a moral imperative that everyone "should" follow.

In reply to:
tick marks are for projecting at best...

Says who?

In reply to:
...and even then i still think they're unnecessary for the most part.

Technically, the are unnecessary. But without tick marks you would have to spend more time learning the route...to what advantage?

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
and tick marks on cracks make zero sense, except maybe in some very discontinuous 5.14 and up thing that requires a perfect jam in a perfect spot or it doesnt go, and that spot is hard to distinguish from another one.

Again, it's unclear why you think that this is absolute-difficulty based, rather than relative-difficulty based. On Digital Watch in J-Tree (5.11b-R), I ticked a crucial placement, the only spot in the finger crack where I could place a blue Alien to protect the crux from a ground fall. Had I not been able to find this one exact spot on redpoint, I would have had to place a black Alien instead, not exactly the piece I want between me and death. Although the tick mark was important to me, a 5.14 climber wouldn't have needed it, either because he would have had the experience to easily spot the placement, or he would be satisfied with a black Alien because he would expect not to fall on 5.11b.

its difficulty based because my perception is that at the highest levels of climbing, the holds are harder to see.

Well, they are; but higher level climbers are better at seeing them. I don't need to tick footholds on 5.10 routes, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't help a fledgling 5.10 climber.

In reply to:
tick marks are unnecessary- and if you find them necessary, you should 1) re-evaluate your climbing ability...

Another moral dictum.

In reply to:
as for your example- if its too hard for you to place gear on...maybe you should wait to climb it when you're stronger.

Wow, three "shoulds" in one post! What benefit would I have received by not climbing the route when I did?

Jay


flint


Sep 12, 2007, 11:13 PM
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jt512 wrote:
dingus wrote:
More of that sport climber respect for his fellow climbers.

In the sport climbing context, that's exactly what it is. With the reasonable assumption that high-end sport routes will only be climbed by high-end sport climbers, then leaving the tick marks in place is doing the next climber a favor. This is essentially the same argument about draws left hanging. The only people who seem to object are people who don't climb the routes in question.

Jay

Get off your high fucking horse. Damn, Check the profile, I climb no where near your grade, but if I turn into a total cock sucker at your level, count me out, I will be happy to hand jam my nice 5.10 anyday.

**Plonk** there, I did it for you.


jt512


Sep 12, 2007, 11:27 PM
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flint wrote:
jt512 wrote:
dingus wrote:
More of that sport climber respect for his fellow climbers.

In the sport climbing context, that's exactly what it is. With the reasonable assumption that high-end sport routes will only be climbed by high-end sport climbers, then leaving the tick marks in place is doing the next climber a favor. This is essentially the same argument about draws left hanging. The only people who seem to object are people who don't climb the routes in question.

Jay

Get off your high fucking horse. Damn, Check the profile, I climb no where near your grade, but if I turn into a total cock sucker at your level, count me out, I will be happy to hand jam my nice 5.10 anyday.

**Plonk** there, I did it for you.

Rather than killfile you immediately (though you certainly deserve it), I have to ask about the "thought process" you underwent in deciding from my post that I am on some kind of a "high horse." Are you so insecure about your climbing that the mere mention of hard climbing causes you to make accusations of the poster and call him a "total cock sucker?"

Jay


flint


Sep 13, 2007, 12:25 AM
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In retrospect, I do apologize for the comment, though I feel it semi warranted. I base my assumption on the numerous other posts, along with the ones contained in this thread. I personally do not know you, and would hope, and understand a different mentality being used on the internet than in real life, due to the increasing amount of lack luster knowledge.

To the topic, your posts normally contain a great deal of arrogance that is construed, properly or not, as looking down on those that don't normally climb "high-end sport routes." Two examples, one form your reply are "Are you so insecure about your climbing that the mere mention of hard climbing causes you to make accusations of the poster" and to the original, "The only people who seem to object are people who don't climb the routes in question"

The second quote is rather tame considering some previous posts I have read of yours, but the idea that leaving draws behind for those high-end routes, only affects a small group is extremely narrow minded. I look outside the climbing world, for example, if you were going for a nice weekend and really needed to escape any human presence, than yes, seeing man made goods, whether it be draws or trash would be unwanted. Granted, draws being the lesser of two evils, and the comment sounds extremely impossible, but I know many people that have expressed this issue. Some areas even have regulations against the action.

I simply ask you to consider the thoughts of others on some topics. Obviously you are a very talented climber, one who many people may look up to. I simply would like to point out, that in the grand scheme of life, me sending 5.10's and you sending 5.14 is really not that different, and a little respect for everyone should be a common and shared trait (despite what I have often shown RC.com.)

In response to my insecurity, I feel no need to respond to a comment that can no way be proved, or disproved over an internet forum, we will leave the dick measuring in the men's room


jt512


Sep 13, 2007, 1:59 AM
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flint wrote:
In retrospect, I do apologize for the comment, though I feel it semi warranted.

In that case, I semi-thank you.

In reply to:
I base my assumption...

That admission really ought to end the argument.

In reply to:
To the topic, your posts normally contain a great deal of arrogance...

This is essentially a repetition of your earlier claim, which you have not supported with any objective evidence. Unless you can do so, I maintain that my posts are simply matter of fact statements about common sport climbing practices, and that your interpreting them as "arrogant" is simply a reflection of your own insecurity or ignorance. No, I can't prove that, either, but on the other hand, it wasn't me who called you a "total cock sucker."

In reply to:
...that is construed, properly or not, as looking down on those that don't normally climb "high-end sport routes."

Since I don't climb high-end sport routes, it is difficult to understand how someone could interpret my commenting on the practices of those who climb such routes, as arrogance, unless, once again, they are insecure about their own climbing level. Like I've been saying, I made nothing more than a factual statement about real-world climbing.

In reply to:
Two examples, one form your reply are "Are you so insecure about your climbing that the mere mention of hard climbing causes you to make accusations of the poster"

Having already commented on this twice, I won't do so again.

In reply to:
"The only people who seem to object are people who don't climb the routes in question"

And I stand by that statement, having climbed in some 30 sport climbing areas. There isn't a one in which leaving draws up or using chalk is not a fully accepted practice. In fact, they are nearly universally accepted and uncontroversial practices in sport climbing (parts of the New being a notable exception, apparently).

In reply to:
...but the idea that leaving draws behind for those high-end routes, only affects a small group is extremely narrow minded.

No, it's a simple statement of reality, as opposed to the hypothesizing that you are engaging in.

In reply to:
I look outside the climbing world, for example, if you were going for a nice weekend and really needed to escape any human presence, than yes, seeing man made goods, whether it be draws or trash would be unwanted.

So, when was the last you went for a nice weekend and really needed to escape any human presence, and your experience was ruined by someone having left draws up on a high-end sport route? Never? Ok, then who do you know who this has happened to? No one? Ok, then are you talking reality or just hypothesizing about something that really doesn't occur.

In reply to:
Granted, draws being the lesser of two evils, and the comment sounds extremely impossible, but I know many people that have expressed this issue.

Funny how I'm the one who has been climbing for 20 years, doesn't live in Ohio, sport climbs over 100 days a year outdoors, and has never heard A SINGLE PERSON complain about chalk or project draws.

In reply to:
Some areas even have regulations against the action.

Like 1 area in 1000. And in those areas, which presumably do see a lot of non-climber traffic, those regulations should be respected. But that is hardly an argument against leaving draws up in the other 999 out of 1000 areas where the practice is utterly banal.

In reply to:
I simply ask you to consider the thoughts of others on some topics.

I consider them every time I read them, and usually just end up wondering what planet people are climbing on.

Jay


flint


Sep 13, 2007, 2:43 AM
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Cuting responses to fit your personal agenda, do you work for CNN on the 265 days or so a year that you are not climbing.

In reply to:
This is essentially a repetition of your earlier claim, which you have not supported with any objective evidence. Unless you can do so, I maintain that my posts are simply matter of fact statements about common sport climbing practices..... No, I can't prove that, either

Look at me go.

In reply to:
Since I don't climb high-end sport routes, it is difficult to understand how someone could interpret my commenting on the practices of those who climb such routes

Well, seeing as I never stated that you climb high-end sport routes, I only now question how you are so keen to the understanding and ethical practices of those elite individuals.

In reply to:
And I stand by that statement, having climbed in some 30 sport climbing areas. There isn't a one in which leaving draws up or using chalk is not a fully accepted practice. In fact, they are nearly universally accepted and uncontroversial practices in sport climbing (parts of the New being a notable exception, apparently)

Wow, you admit your wrong within the same topic you know so much about. Not a good argument strategy.

In reply to:
In reply to:...but the idea that leaving draws behind for those high-end routes, only affects a small group is extremely narrow minded.

No, it's a simple statement of reality, as opposed to the hypothesizing that you are engaging in.


Your statement is also a hypothese, unless it can be proven beyond a reasonable dought... need I remind you of the New and their policies again.

In reply to:
Funny how I'm the one who has been climbing for 20 years, doesn't live in Ohio, sport climbs over 100 days a year outdoors, and has never heard A SINGLE PERSON complain about chalk or project draws.

Funny how chalk, and idealy impacts, are what this thread was originaly about. Or is saying chalk is an impact to big of a stretch for you. And, yeah, I live in Ohio, I guess that sways my personal ethics some how, granted I only live there for half of the year.

In reply to:
I consider them every time I read them, and usually just end up wondering what planet people are climbing on.

Come back to ours some time and I will take you out for some trad, or should we bolt those lines and put up some perm. draws so you won't cry to much.

And no response to measuring up, I thought this was a thread hijak/fight, come on, I left you wide open on that one.

j-


jt512


Sep 13, 2007, 3:15 AM
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In reply to:
Cuting responses to fit your personal agenda

That's not even remotely what I did. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for you.

flint wrote:
[snip quite a bit of blatant misleading, desperate, out-of-context quoting]

Come back to ours some time and I will take you out for some trad, or should we bolt those lines and put up some perm. draws so you won't cry to much.

Considering that I've led trad two number grades harder than you have, and have actually done so in some worthwhile areas, I'm going to take a pass on your invitation to climb 5.9 in Ohio.

So, out of three posts, in the first you do nothing but call me names; in the second you show a shred of intelligence; and in the third you show that you are incapable of addressing any of my arguments, and instead resort to childish dishonest debate tactics, proving that the it was the second post that was out of character for you.

Verdict: (1) Grow up. (2) *plonk*

Jay


overlord


Sep 13, 2007, 3:50 AM
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well, i remove my tick mark after finishing a route (not that i use them all the time, only when theres a hidden cruical hold that is hard to tick) and i also remove tick marks that other ppl put up and didnt remove. especially those long ones poiting to an obvious jug on a .9Tongue


flint


Sep 13, 2007, 3:58 AM
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Yes, because asking yourself in a sarcastic tone, "what planet do they climb on" is a relatively adult way of argueing.

Please show one dishonest statement I placed in my third post.

I love that you place the locations you have climbed on the worth while list, of which I have no debate, but neglect to consider anything besides my residentce.

In reply to:
Considering that I've led trad two number grades harder than you have

I believe in my previous post I described how truely important climbing grades are in measuring self worth.

I did apologize for the names, the debate over the marrits of the names is of a different question. Thank you for the complament, and toward my third post, I felt as though I address the issue fully, despite recieving no response from you that would spread a different light on the subject.

My debate topics, childish as they may be, have apperently been used to a level that allowed for no on topic response to the discussion at hand. Leading me to believe that you have idealy come to an understanding of both view points (the ultimate goal, of which the right to decide is yours, and you will not be judged by me for that) or that, and most likely, my debate tactics are stronger than your argument, which is saying a lot, seeing that I have only a child's understanding of the principle.

Verdict: Adults are capable of seeing both sides and drawing a conclusion, children believe they are right from the start.


Partner cracklover


Sep 13, 2007, 6:57 AM
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jt512 wrote:
(2) *plonk*

Jay

Jay, if you killfile everyone who occassionally calls you names, and has trouble making a coherent argument, especially when you're beating them soundly, it's going to be a lonely place for you around here before too long!

GO


vegastradguy


Sep 13, 2007, 7:06 AM
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jt512 wrote:
What rational basis, if any, do you have for such a rule? Sounds to me like an arbitrary personal preference that you are attempting to magnify into a moral imperative that everyone "should" follow.

no rational basis, sheerly personal preference. i climb by a different set of rules than you (surprise, surprise), and, i felt like sharing those rules here.

however, i am not attempting to magnify them into a moral imperative (thats a bit much, i think), i'm simply sharing my thoughts on the subject.


lemon_boy


Sep 13, 2007, 7:43 AM
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usually when i see a picture of an amazng desert crack, i sit and stare at it in awe. i think about the hundreds of desert cracks that i have climbed and wonder how this one compares to them. i wonder where it is, how long it is, what size it is.... i look at the topography in the background and try to figure out if i have been near it before.

when i saw the picture of dean potter on hong kong phooey, i couldn't even see the crack. all i could see was an abortion of 6 inch tick marks all over the fucking place. it seriously made me want to vomit. who the fuck needs to tick a desert crack? it is completely and utterly unnecessary, i don't give a fuck what the grade is. those of you pathetic sheep that will doubtlessly keep sucking dean's cack, whatever he may do, can keep doing so. but it is good to see that there are people out there who don't give privelege to somebody simply because they are in the mags.

jay, i understand your argument for ticks, if they are used in complex face climbing where the exact location of the sweet spot is helpful. however, i disagree with your comment that it is helpful for the next climber. i would say this is actually usually detrimental, as a number of climbers do the route and tick it based on their (often very poor) "beta". this is particularly distracting to people who are trying to onsight the routes that the 'tickers' are desperately dogging up. i imagine that you have robably done a route where you came across a ticked hold and thought 'who was the knucklehead who ticked this hold, it isn't the correct hold to use here."

anyway, as angry said in his first post (i think), it wouldn't be that big of a deal if people cleaned them off, but they never do.


dingus


Sep 13, 2007, 7:53 AM
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Re: [lemon_boy] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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Killfile all you want you petty bastards but you PLONKERS suck donkey balls each and every one of you.

Fucking pansies.

DMT


fracture


Sep 13, 2007, 7:56 AM
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Re: [jt512] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
vegastradguy wrote:
as for your example- if its too hard for you to place gear on...maybe you should wait to climb it when you're stronger.

Wow, three "shoulds" in one post! What benefit would I have received by not climbing the route when I did?

If you were systematic about it, you would receive the illusion of a moral high ground.

It's... The Rock Conscientious Objector's Way.

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