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lodi5onu


Sep 13, 2007, 8:43 AM
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I placed the dark 2" tick mark on an unnecessary foothold at the crux of World At War at Summersville Lake last weekend. I forgot to brush it off after i finished the climb. Don't use it as it's not in the correct sequence, but i was pissed off and trying lots of different options. Sorry.


justroberto


Sep 13, 2007, 9:01 AM
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lodi5onu wrote:
I placed the dark 2" tick mark on an unnecessary foothold at the crux of World At War at Summersville Lake last weekend.

I'm a big fan of the "mixed" label written in chalk at the base of Orange Dihedral down at Summersville.

Brilliant.

I tried to take it off, but it was a stubborn little bastard...


lodi5onu


Sep 13, 2007, 9:07 AM
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or how about "fuck this climb" on one at bubba city...can't remember the name, but that had to have taken some time and chalk


Partner angry


Sep 13, 2007, 9:22 AM
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I'll bring up a point that the infamous BobD used specifically against me in one of our "ethics" arguement.

Style is how you choose to climb the rock, it only affects you, the climber.

Ethics effects everyone who climbs the rock.


So if "Tickmonster" had rapped the route and cleaned it after the wicked send, his/her style would not have affected me in the least.

Since "Tickmonster" did not clean up the mess, I had no choice but to be affected by this ethic.

Did I have a great time on Pervertical? Hell yes, I rode my bike from 6pm to 2am, drove to boulder at 3am. Was in the parking lot by 5am, did the hike in, climbed the route, got cold, got snowed on, got the onsight, nearly fucked myself on rappel, and slept really well that night.

Did the tick marks take away from a great day. Yes they did. No, they didn't spoil the day, but they affected the climb. I did not consider it a favor.

Now Jay, keep up your arguement. You're going nowhere with it, you're accomplishing nothing. Wanna talk numbers and radness and total bitchin sends cause you're so high end? Bring it.


atpeaceinbozeman


Sep 13, 2007, 9:28 AM
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Tick marks in Big Bend...seem okay to meCrazy

Rise to the occasion, or bring it down to your level?


k.l.k


Sep 13, 2007, 9:41 AM
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jt-- I usually enjoy your posts, possibly because I frequently agree with the positions they set out, but you have a tendency to project your own particular experience ("me and my friends do x here or have found y to be generally true there) as an eternal and universal truth ("all sport climbers do x," "sport climbing is y....."). What you and your partners have been doing at you crags for the past few years is not necessarily representative. But most of the n00bs reading these threads aren't going to understand that nor are they likely to understand that 5.12 is no longer the old standard. They are likely to react at the tone.

Leaving tick marks is not a universally accepted best practice. It may well be best practice at your favorite crags and the ones you have visited elsewhere. It may have become general in socal in the years since I've been gone (it wasn't at the crags i developed). It isn't at Pet Wall or in Steinerne Stadt or at any number of other areas in which i've climbed more recently. Ticks aren't allowed at all in most comps where on-sighting is the goal. And the constant use of tick marks-- or climbing only at pre-tick marked crags--will eventually have unhappy effects on one's skills for on-sighting. If you get the chance to flee the socal chosspiles and go to the Dolomites to try some of the sport classics, you can't count on someone having left tick-marks up Canasla or The Fish.

i do find it easy to believe that the practice of leaving tick-marks has become much more common recently, especially in the U.S. since we don't have many areas with multi-pitch sport and comps are as important as they are in Europe. And the issue has made some noise overseas. One of the nastier rumours about an important solo by a famous German climber was that the route had been prepped with tons of colored tape to mark hand and footholds. I mention this not because I know it to be true, but because the simple fact that it could be used as a nasty rumour suggests that the practice is not universally held to be a respectful contribution to the experience of the greater sport climbing community.


moose_droppings


Sep 13, 2007, 10:13 AM
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Striking that when talking about some bolts it was, pretend their not there, ignore them, don't clip them. But with tic marks, some of those same think they should be removed, not used at all, a nuisance.
Crazy

Some day they'll invent a non straddling fence.


k.l.k


Sep 13, 2007, 10:31 AM
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moose droppings-- yes, a bolt line--and chalked handholds--make a route easier (usually) to read. but it doesn't follow that permanent tickmarks or tape markings on small features are not an additional aid. if they were not, no one would use them let alone debate whether or not they should be removed. there is a reason that comps don't allow competitors to rap the route and tickmark their desired tinies ahead of time. i don't care if folks use tick marks. i use them sometimes. especially on difficult (for me) sections where the footholds are tiny and hard to see and the clock is running. i also erase them afterwards. it's not that big of a deal.

if you are a local at a crag in which almost everyone prefers projects, i don't care if you leave fixed tickmarks (unless it's on land where it could be an access issue). party like its 1999. rub glyco all over your naked body. tick mark your partner's zipper if you have trouble finding it. just understand that once you leave your home crag, and go climb elsewhere, tick mark culture may well be very different from what you are accustomed to. and if you decide to boulder in 'bleau, don't leave tickmarks unless you are looking for a beatdown from angry locals.


justroberto


Sep 13, 2007, 10:31 AM
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lodi5onu wrote:
or how about "fuck this climb" on one at bubba city...can't remember the name, but that had to have taken some time and chalk
Funny, I keep running into this chick up at the gorge that annoyingly and incessantly screams that on every climb, be it some .11 hangdog or a 30 foot .7 jughaul. Although, in all fairness it's more like "fuck this goddamned stupid mutherfucking goddamned mutherfucking piece of shit climb!" God I hate that shit.


(This post was edited by justroberto on Sep 13, 2007, 10:33 AM)


jt512


Sep 13, 2007, 11:51 AM
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cracklover wrote:
jt512 wrote:
(2) *plonk*

Jay

Jay, if you killfile everyone who occassionally calls you names, and has trouble making a coherent argument, especially when you're beating them soundly, it's going to be a lonely place for you around here before too long!

GO

I know. I started out only killfiling the most egregious idiots, but I'm going through a phase where I'm not really interested in reading posts by people who have little if anything useful to contribute. That may well be the majority of users here, and if that's the case, then so be it. I was once shocked when a friend of mine, who was once a major contributor to rec.climbing, informed me that he had been killfiling 75% of posters to that newsgroup. Now I understand it.

Jay


dingus


Sep 13, 2007, 11:56 AM
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jt512 wrote:
cracklover wrote:
jt512 wrote:
(2) *plonk*

Jay

Jay, if you killfile everyone who occassionally calls you names, and has trouble making a coherent argument, especially when you're beating them soundly, it's going to be a lonely place for you around here before too long!

GO

I know. I started out only killfiling the most egregious idiots, but I'm going through a phase where I'm not really interested in reading posts by people who have little if anything useful to contribute. That may well be the majority of users here, and if that's the case, then so be it. I was once shocked when a friend of mine, who was once a major contributor to rec.climbing, informed me that he had been killfiling 75% of posters to that newsgroup. Now I understand it.

Jay

Just leave the plonking bullshit in kindergarten will ya???

OR I'LL NEVER SPEAK TO YOU AGAIN SO THERE!!!

I'M NOT LISTENING!!!111111

NYAH NYAH NYAH NYAH!

Cheers
DMT


healyje


Sep 13, 2007, 12:00 PM
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Ticking is aid for the weak-minded with poor spatial and memory skills. Also, the claim of an onsight of a route previously ticked by someone else would be completely laughable.


jt512


Sep 13, 2007, 12:05 PM
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angry wrote:
Now Jay, keep up your arguement.

I'm not really making an argument, just stating simple facts. Just about everybody who's anybody in this sport uses tick marks, and most sport climbers don't mind climbing a route that has been ticked by someone else -- in fact, they often prefer it. Sport climbing is about doing hard moves, not about the spiritual experience of discovering a small foothold. Trad might be a different story. I erased my tick mark on Digital Watch in J Tree. I don't routinely erase my tick marks at sport crags.

Jay


wmfork


Sep 13, 2007, 4:39 PM
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jt512 wrote:
And I stand by that statement, having climbed in some 30 sport climbing areas. There isn't a one in which leaving draws up or using chalk is not a fully accepted practice. In fact, they are nearly universally accepted and uncontroversial practices in sport climbing (parts of the New being a notable exception, apparently).
By your argument, since people who climb at Sport Park, Boulder Canyon (and maybe other crags) don't have problem with chipped routes, it becomes an uncontroversial practice as well? Why should it surprise anyone that chippers don't have problems with chipping and sporto don't have problem with perma draws and ticks?

I have a number of partners who are put off by the sport climbing ethics enough that they'd choose NOT to go to a sport crag, who otherwise probably wouldn't mind clipping bolts too much.

At any rate, Pervertical is a trad route, and so are climbs in the Creek (though it smells more like sport with cams).


jt512


Sep 13, 2007, 5:09 PM
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wmfork wrote:
jt512 wrote:
And I stand by that statement, having climbed in some 30 sport climbing areas. There isn't a one in which leaving draws up or using chalk is not a fully accepted practice. In fact, they are nearly universally accepted and uncontroversial practices in sport climbing (parts of the New being a notable exception, apparently).
By your argument, since people who climb at Sport Park, Boulder Canyon (and maybe other crags) don't have problem with chipped routes, it becomes an uncontroversial practice as well?

I'm not making even making an argument about draws or chalk, never mind chipping, Einstein.

Jay


wmfork


Sep 13, 2007, 5:43 PM
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jt512 wrote:
I'm not making even making an argument about draws or chalk, never mind chipping, Einstein.
And you can state that 100 times. But when you keep stating facts (and opinions masqueraded as "facts") that only supports one side of an argument, you've implicitly engaged in an argument... unless, of course, if you wish to state your stand on the matter (if you have one at all).


jt512


Sep 13, 2007, 5:47 PM
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wmfork wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I'm not making even making an argument about draws or chalk, never mind chipping, Einstein.
But when you keep stating facts (and opinions masqueraded as "facts") that only supports one side of an argument, you've implicitly engaged in an argument... unless, of course, if you wish to state your stand on the matter (if you have one at all).

Huh?


flint


Sep 13, 2007, 6:50 PM
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jt512 wrote:
cracklover wrote:
jt512 wrote:
(2) *plonk*

Jay

Jay, if you killfile everyone who occassionally calls you names, and has trouble making a coherent argument, especially when you're beating them soundly, it's going to be a lonely place for you around here before too long!

GO

I know. I started out only killfiling the most egregious idiots, but I'm going through a phase where I'm not really interested in reading posts by people who have little if anything useful to contribute. That may well be the majority of users here, and if that's the case, then so be it. I was once shocked when a friend of mine, who was once a major contributor to rec.climbing, informed me that he had been killfiling 75% of posters to that newsgroup. Now I understand it.

Jay

Did jay just killfile himself?

In reply to:
Just about everybody who's anybody in this sport uses tick marks, and most sport climbers don't mind climbing a route that has been ticked by someone else

First point, doughtfuly true, seeing as I have watched videos of everybody who's anybody complaining of ticks. And to your second point, not only ticking sport climbers climb the routes that you ticked.

We are not asking you to change everything you do, just to understand and take into concideration others views on a topic.


ajkclay


Sep 13, 2007, 6:59 PM
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jt512 wrote:
most sport climbers don't mind climbing a route that has been ticked by someone else -- in fact, they often prefer it.
Jay
hmmm, most but not all, what about someone wanting to try for an onsight?

jt512 wrote:
Sport climbing is about doing hard moves, not about the spiritual experience of discovering a small foothold.

Perhaps but this still does not justify taking away the onsight potential from someone else.

The "high-end" arguement does not hold because high-end performance is dependent upon many variables which will determine ability on a periodical and regional basis... not even Graham et. al. climb 5.14+ every day of the year on every style of route imaginable, nor are they capable of it. Therefore it is not unreasonable to imagine that someone may well work a route that they find difficult due to point in a training cycle of style of climb that another may wish to attempt onsight...

So, what's the big deal in cleaning tick marks? Geez, someone spends all that energy trying to get up a route over and over again and then what? They don't have the energy left to rub off some chalk?

Adam

PS I think I was in the killfile years ago for being naughty so this really is for the entertainment of the rest of you standing in the corner with me Wink

Incidently, if you are reading this Jay, it really is quite funny that you act so indignant when someone calls you an ass or whatever, asking what exactly you have said in the thread... You do realise that it would be reasonable to be nervous around Ted Bundy even though he is smiling and seems to be in a happy mood don't you? Maybe take yourself off your killfile and read some of your past posts huh?


atpeaceinbozeman


Sep 14, 2007, 8:13 AM
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Anyone else find this interesting?


jt512 wrote:
Technically, the are unnecessary. But without tick marks you would have to spend more time learning the route...to what advantage?


Perhaps it's about the climbing and not the send?

When I think back on a proud redpoint of my own, I'd rather be able to recall the send, the movement, and the experience the route gave me...


jt512


Sep 14, 2007, 4:01 PM
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atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
Anyone else find this interesting?


jt512 wrote:
Technically, the are unnecessary. But without tick marks you would have to spend more time learning the route...to what advantage?


Perhaps it's about the climbing and not the send?

When I think back on a proud redpoint of my own, I'd rather be able to recall the send, the movement, and the experience the route gave me...

Dude, come on, the hardest red point on your tick list is 5.10a!

Jay


Partner angry


Sep 14, 2007, 4:21 PM
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jt512 wrote:
atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
Anyone else find this interesting?


jt512 wrote:
Technically, the are unnecessary. But without tick marks you would have to spend more time learning the route...to what advantage?


Perhaps it's about the climbing and not the send?

When I think back on a proud redpoint of my own, I'd rather be able to recall the send, the movement, and the experience the route gave me...

Dude, come on, the hardest red point on your tick list is 5.10a!

Jay

How would your reply have changed had I written the same thing?


jt512


Sep 14, 2007, 7:00 PM
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angry wrote:
jt512 wrote:
atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
Anyone else find this interesting?


jt512 wrote:
Technically, the are unnecessary. But without tick marks you would have to spend more time learning the route...to what advantage?


Perhaps it's about the climbing and not the send?

When I think back on a proud redpoint of my own, I'd rather be able to recall the send, the movement, and the experience the route gave me...

Dude, come on, the hardest red point on your tick list is 5.10a!

Jay

How would your reply have changed had I written the same thing?

I would have noted that first you'd said it's not about the send, and then you said it was, in the same post.

Jay


microbarn


Sep 14, 2007, 8:34 PM
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jt512 wrote:
angry wrote:
jt512 wrote:
atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
Anyone else find this interesting?


jt512 wrote:
Technically, the are unnecessary. But without tick marks you would have to spend more time learning the route...to what advantage?


Perhaps it's about the climbing and not the send?

When I think back on a proud redpoint of my own, I'd rather be able to recall the send, the movement, and the experience the route gave me...

Dude, come on, the hardest red point on your tick list is 5.10a!

Jay

How would your reply have changed had I written the same thing?

I would have noted that first you'd said it's not about the send, and then you said it was, in the same post.

Jay


Apply it to yourself, and aim for the center.


moose_droppings


Sep 14, 2007, 8:49 PM
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k.l.k wrote:
moose droppings-- yes, a bolt line--and chalked handholds--make a route easier (usually) to read.

Yea I know that.
I was just saying its funny that some people can tell others to ignore a bolt when they can't ignore a tic mark. A sort of fence straddling to me.

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