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notapplicable


Sep 15, 2007, 10:40 AM
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angry wrote:
Did I have a great time on Pervertical? Hell yes, I rode my bike from 6pm to 2am, drove to boulder at 3am. Was in the parking lot by 5am, did the hike in, climbed the route, got cold, got snowed on, got the onsight, nearly fucked myself on rappel, and slept really well that night.


Are you sure about this? What with the tickmark beta and all.Angelic

You might want to change that to a "flash" on your route log.Tongue


Partner angry


Sep 16, 2007, 2:51 AM
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notapplicable wrote:
angry wrote:
Did I have a great time on Pervertical? Hell yes, I rode my bike from 6pm to 2am, drove to boulder at 3am. Was in the parking lot by 5am, did the hike in, climbed the route, got cold, got snowed on, got the onsight, nearly fucked myself on rappel, and slept really well that night.


Are you sure about this? What with the tickmark beta and all.Angelic

You might want to change that to a "flash" on your route log.Tongue

No, you're right. It was impossible to onsight that route in that condition.

Am I 100% sure I could have done it without the ticks, probably, who cares.

Yes Jay, it is a contradiction. For a route in such a pretty setting that is so far below my max, I'm not worried about the send. But still, the ticks took away from the route. Get it? It's clear to me anyway.


notapplicable


Sep 16, 2007, 5:05 AM
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angry wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
angry wrote:
Did I have a great time on Pervertical? Hell yes, I rode my bike from 6pm to 2am, drove to boulder at 3am. Was in the parking lot by 5am, did the hike in, climbed the route, got cold, got snowed on, got the onsight, nearly fucked myself on rappel, and slept really well that night.


Are you sure about this? What with the tickmark beta and all.Angelic

You might want to change that to a "flash" on your route log.Tongue

No, you're right. It was impossible to onsight that route in that condition.

Am I 100% sure I could have done it without the ticks, probably, who cares.

Yes Jay, it is a contradiction. For a route in such a pretty setting that is so far below my max, I'm not worried about the send. But still, the ticks took away from the route. Get it? It's clear to me anyway.

I wouldnt be the least bit ambivalent about taking pride in climbing a route in good style. Some of my most memorable moments on the rock involve onsite climbing (roped or solo).

I think its a climbers obligation to minimize the impact their activities have on the style inwhich another person chooses or would like to climb. If I were in your shoes I would have been ticked off (pardon the pun) as well.


P.S. Yes I use chalk and yes I am a hypocrite. I am addicted to the white powder but am seeking counseling and beg forgiveness for my transgressions.


camhead


Sep 16, 2007, 3:02 PM
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jt512 wrote:
Technically, the are unnecessary. But without tick marks you would have to spend more time learning the route...to what advantage?


uhhh, to the advantage of your overall onsight ability.

trust me.


paintrain


Sep 16, 2007, 7:16 PM
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Wow. I actually plowed through 5 pages of mostly Jay's spew. Yeah, I know. You are going to killfile me. But, I may be the last person left in the world who doesn't agree with you not already on your list.


-Tick marks are AID. If you can't remember moves after working them to death, then you have smoked too much dope. Just climb in the gym. You will never have to wonder where those pesky holds are ever again.

Otherwise admit that your a bit deficient because you can't remember where a hold you have been on 15x is when you are at your MAX (NOTE: for those of you not climbing over 5.10 who don't understand why you need tick marks on climbs "MAX" is short for "maximum" ).

Tick marks are just an excuse to not pay closer attention and use that almost 10% of your brain that supposedly most folks utilize. It is a weakness in your climbing if you rely on them. Example 1: I am better at open handed holds than crimpers ergo I should train more on crimpers to become stonger at crimpers (I used ergo in a sentence). Example 2: I should concentrate on remembering where holds are so I can climb better without someone on the ground with a laser pointer giving me aid or chalk marking 6 pitches of 5.10 @ 13,000 ft.

Try a little Sudoku or maybe a crossword puzzle a couple times a week and you won't need all those tickmarks. Or maybe just train a little harder.

"Sport climbing" (is neither) - sure there are different ethics with grid bolting, packs of dogs running around and wall to wall fixed draws. It is just a climbing "park". I would appreciate leash laws, porta-jons and trash cans at most sport crags too for that matter.


Leave No Trace
-Some of us who get to out of the way alpine places like the ethic of leave no trace. That applies to the route. Alpine/trad climbing = route finding.

Putting tick marks on a 6 pitch trad route at 13,000 ft just shows "the purest style" possible (note heavy sarcasm and nod to previous accused chalk artist quote about style in which delicate arch was not so purely climbed). If you are that worried about soloing a route that you need to chalk mark the hell out of it, maybe you should rethink your objectives??????

PT.


caughtinside


Sep 16, 2007, 7:49 PM
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paintrain wrote:

-Tick marks are AID.

nah.

-Tick marks are BETA.

Unless BETA and AID have become the same thing?


paintrain


Sep 16, 2007, 8:03 PM
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I will grant you not Aid as in physical aid from gear as in aid climbing, but aid in the sense of assistance.

Beta is a form of aid (ie. assistance as a verb, help as a noun).

That is the difference between an Onsight and a flash. It seems no one really cares about the distinction anymore. It is all about the red point (or "pink point" if you have been climbing for a little while).

PT


atpeaceinbozeman


Sep 18, 2007, 9:20 AM
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jt512 wrote:
atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
Anyone else find this interesting?


jt512 wrote:
Technically, the are unnecessary. But without tick marks you would have to spend more time learning the route...to what advantage?


Perhaps it's about the climbing and not the send?

When I think back on a proud redpoint of my own, I'd rather be able to recall the send, the movement, and the experience the route gave me...

Dude, come on, the hardest red point on your tick list is 5.10a!

Jay

Even if .10a was my hardest tick, which it's not, my point remains unchanged.

For me, it's really about the climbing, not spraying about ratings. YMMV


k.l.k


Sep 18, 2007, 10:36 AM
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Back to the OP: As we enter a world in which prepared solos of longer routes become common, we need to make certain that the style of that solo is made clear. Most of us probably won't care if someone preps a solo beforehand, so long as they clean up afterward and are clear that they prepped the thing. My guess is that the soloist in this case will now have an extremely strong incentive (if they didn't before) to be public about the style in which the route was done.

I wished they'd erased the tick marks, but I'm not sure that the marking itself lessens my respect for the performance. When i first heard about tape-marking for long solos in the Dolos, my first thought was sweaty-palmed disbelief that someone would carefully prep a solo so marginal that they needed tick-marks. I can't even imagine setting off into the death zone on something so limit that I felt I needed the footholds outlined.


jt512


Sep 18, 2007, 10:52 AM
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atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
jt512 wrote:
atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
Anyone else find this interesting?


jt512 wrote:
Technically, the are unnecessary. But without tick marks you would have to spend more time learning the route...to what advantage?


Perhaps it's about the climbing and not the send?

When I think back on a proud redpoint of my own, I'd rather be able to recall the send, the movement, and the experience the route gave me...

Dude, come on, the hardest red point on your tick list is 5.10a!

Jay

Even if .10a was my hardest tick, which it's not, my point remains unchanged.

For me, it's really about the climbing, not spraying about ratings. YMMV

Another reasoning-impaired whiner desperately trying to rationalize stagnant performance.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 18, 2007, 10:53 AM)


crankinv9


Sep 18, 2007, 11:05 AM
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so , I'll add my two cents.

I would have been a little bummed to come across a bunch of tick marks on the Diamond but I wouldn't have let ruin a day in the mountains.

I use them when I need them. Some boulder problems have moves that are so fast and steep, you can't see the hold until the very last second and a tick mark will help with your aim.

I usually use a small dot though, I'm not a fan of the racing stripes or worse yet, the double racing stripe.

I have used them on sport climbs but more often for tricky feet, once again a small dot right on top of the hold that usually gets removed by my shoe rubber.

Yeah, I use tick marks, chalk, spray beta, accept beta and generally laugh while I'm out at the boulders or crag, and I have good time too.

Oh yeah, I usually will remove my tick marks, but I would be lying if I said that I removed them all, sometimes I just forget, sorry.


knieveltech


Sep 18, 2007, 11:30 AM
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jt512 wrote:
atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
jt512 wrote:
atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
Anyone else find this interesting?


jt512 wrote:
Technically, the are unnecessary. But without tick marks you would have to spend more time learning the route...to what advantage?

Perhaps it's about the climbing and not the send?

When I think back on a proud redpoint of my own, I'd rather be able to recall the send, the movement, and the experience the route gave me...

Dude, come on, the hardest red point on your tick list is 5.10a!

Jay

Even if .10a was my hardest tick, which it's not, my point remains unchanged.

For me, it's really about the climbing, not spraying about ratings. YMMV

Another reasoning-impaired whiner desperately trying to rationalize stagnant performance.

Jay

Dude, wtf? Spray much?


jt512


Sep 18, 2007, 11:34 AM
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knieveltech wrote:
jt512 wrote:
atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
jt512 wrote:
atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
Anyone else find this interesting?


jt512 wrote:
Technically, the are unnecessary. But without tick marks you would have to spend more time learning the route...to what advantage?

Perhaps it's about the climbing and not the send?

When I think back on a proud redpoint of my own, I'd rather be able to recall the send, the movement, and the experience the route gave me...

Dude, come on, the hardest red point on your tick list is 5.10a!

Jay

Even if .10a was my hardest tick, which it's not, my point remains unchanged.

For me, it's really about the climbing, not spraying about ratings. YMMV

Another reasoning-impaired whiner desperately trying to rationalize stagnant performance.

Jay

Dude, wtf? Spray much?

Being a no-talent nobody myself, I know better than to spray. I just don't rationalize away my weaknesses with pretenses to moral or spiritual superiority.

Jay


ccharles


Sep 18, 2007, 11:39 AM
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I agree with crankinv9's sentiments. I often use tickmarks when bouldering, mostly chalk dots for small granite crystals that are key footholds. I try to brush them off when I am done. Drawing huge lines and then leaving them on the boulder is definitely a little obnoxious, but there have also been times when I am working on a new route and I am happy to have a pre-existing tick mark revealing a key foot or hand hold that makes working out the sequence a bit faster for me.


burrito


Sep 18, 2007, 11:42 AM
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jt512 wrote:
Another reasoning-impaired whiner desperately trying to rationalize stagnant performance.

Jay

Now that's just the epitome of an objective, fact-based statement if I've ever heard one. Crazy

I don't post much on here, and no, before it even comes up as a "reason" for my various shortcomings, I don't climb very hard either. But I call bullshit on that one.

And I also completely agree with atpeaceinbozeman. How can one truly learn to climb if one isn't forced to use his brain in order to do so? Forgive me for enjoying an intellectual as well as a physical challenge, but I don't want the beta handed to me before I've even tried working it out on my own. (It's like highlighting the correct answer on a multiple choice test or something -- what's the point of even asking the question, in that case?) Maybe that makes my progression slower, or maybe it even makes it stagnant (though I highly doubt it), but I'm cool with that. I'm not here to compete with anyone...


atpeaceinbozeman


Sep 18, 2007, 12:28 PM
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jt512 wrote:
Another reasoning-impaired whiner desperately trying to rationalize stagnant performance.


jt512 wrote:
I just don't rationalize away my weaknesses with pretenses to moral or spiritual superiority.

I must have hit a nerve.

I'm just giving my perspective on ticks, and some reasons why some may not appreciate them as much as yourself.

By defining my 'performance' and 'weaknesses' in terms of climbing hard, it reveals more about yourself than you might have realized.

If that's how you define your climbing, fine. I'm not here to tell you how to enjoy yourself.

Cheers

edited for clarity (thanks shockabuku )


(This post was edited by atpeaceinbozeman on Sep 18, 2007, 12:37 PM)


shockabuku


Sep 18, 2007, 12:34 PM
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atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Another reasoning-impaired whiner desperately trying to rationalize stagnant performance.


jt512 wrote:
I just don't rationalize away my weaknesses with pretenses to moral or spiritual superiority.

I must have (not "of") hit a nerve.

I'm just giving my perspective on ticks, and some reasons why some may not appreciate them as much as yourself.

By defining my 'performance' and 'weaknesses' in terms of climbing hard, it reveals more about yourself than you might have (again) realized.

If that's how you define your climbing, fine. I'm not here to tell you how to enjoy yourself.

Cheers

Bold and italics mine.


tavs


Sep 18, 2007, 1:01 PM
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jt512 wrote:
atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
jt512 wrote:
atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
Anyone else find this interesting?


jt512 wrote:
Technically, the are unnecessary. But without tick marks you would have to spend more time learning the route...to what advantage?


Perhaps it's about the climbing and not the send?

When I think back on a proud redpoint of my own, I'd rather be able to recall the send, the movement, and the experience the route gave me...

Dude, come on, the hardest red point on your tick list is 5.10a!

Jay

Even if .10a was my hardest tick, which it's not, my point remains unchanged.

For me, it's really about the climbing, not spraying about ratings. YMMV

Another reasoning-impaired whiner desperately trying to rationalize stagnant performance.

Jay

Ahh yes, the old "if you give any reason for climbing other than sending hard(er), you must be lying" argument. Thanks for the killfile program, Jay--you're about to become my first.


jt512


Sep 18, 2007, 3:56 PM
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atpeaceinbozeman wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Another reasoning-impaired whiner desperately trying to rationalize stagnant performance.


jt512 wrote:
I just don't rationalize away my weaknesses with pretenses to moral or spiritual superiority.

I must have hit a nerve.

I'm just giving my perspective on ticks, and some reasons why some may not appreciate them as much as yourself.

By defining my 'performance' and 'weaknesses' in terms of climbing hard, it reveals more about yourself than you might have realized.

If that's how you define your climbing, fine. I'm not here to tell you how to enjoy yourself.

Cheers

edited for clarity (thanks shockabuku )

Pretty much everybody in every sport tries to get better. You don't see gymnasts saying, I'm happy with an 8 on the parallel bars, because I like the movement. The is primarily a climbing phenomenon, whereby weak climbers pretend that staying weak and climbing at moderate levels is on a higher spiritual plane than trying to actually improve one's climbing. They call the latter "number chasing" in a thinly veiled attempt to make themselves feel better about their own inability or laziness. Your holier-than-thou, "if that's how you define your climbing, blah, blah, blah," is precisely what I'm talking about. Incredibly, you've actually convinced yourself of the moral superiority of mediocre performance. Amazing.

Edit: And now that your grammar has been corrected you change your post and note that it has been "edited for 'clarity'." You can't even be honest with yourself about your writing ability.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 18, 2007, 4:01 PM)


Partner angry


Sep 18, 2007, 4:11 PM
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So why was your post edited Jay?

You make a great point, I LOVE to get better. I fucking love it. In fact, I thrive off of it. Climbing isn't all numbers but god damn, it's great to send something harder than I've sent before. Or to be immersed in a route knowing full well that this, this very moment in time, is the hardest climbing I've ever done. God it's great.

Why do I need tickmarks for that?


jt512


Sep 18, 2007, 4:14 PM
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angry wrote:
So why was your post edited Jay?

Has your reading comprehension deteriorated, too?

Jay


Partner angry


Sep 18, 2007, 4:24 PM
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Yep, I guess it has a little. I didn't read the "edit" just the rest of your nonsense.

You remind of the speech and debate kid in high school. You know the one. He's very self assured and likes to argue every point, whether right or wrong, just to argue. The little bitches would argue that the earth was flat just to hear themselves debate. Great if you're on the team, but life isn't a debate meet.

I only ever found one way to shut them up, "shut your mouth or I'll shut it for you". Crude I know, but I never had to actually shut anyone's mouth. At 5'7" and 125lbs, I was pretty intimidating, let me tell you...

Fuck you and your tick marks. Eat my ass!!


camhead


Sep 18, 2007, 4:44 PM
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Angry, it is a well known fact that only anti-semites go chalkless...


glytch


Sep 18, 2007, 4:46 PM
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angry wrote:
Yep, I guess it has a little. I didn't read the "edit" just the rest of your nonsense.

You remind of the speech and debate kid in high school. You know the one. He's very self assured and likes to argue every point, whether right or wrong, just to argue. The little bitches would argue that the earth was flat just to hear themselves debate. Great if you're on the team, but life isn't a debate meet.

I only ever found one way to shut them up, "shut your mouth or I'll shut it for you". Crude I know, but I never had to actually shut anyone's mouth. At 5'7" and 125lbs, I was pretty intimidating, let me tell you...

Fuck you and your tick marks. Eat my ass!!

Damn, I love this thread.


jt512


Sep 18, 2007, 4:49 PM
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angry wrote:
Yep, I guess it has a little. I didn't read the "edit" just the rest of your nonsense.

You remind of the speech and debate kid in high school. You know the one. He's very self assured and likes to argue every point, whether right or wrong, just to argue.

I don't know why you think that applies to my stating a banal fact about climber using tick marks.

Jay

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