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Partner rocdaug


Sep 19, 2007, 2:37 PM
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Re: [ajkclay] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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ajkclay wrote:
jt512 wrote:
angry wrote:
Yep, I guess it has a little. I didn't read the "edit" just the rest of your nonsense.

You remind of the speech and debate kid in high school. You know the one. He's very self assured and likes to argue every point, whether right or wrong, just to argue.

I don't know why you think that applies to my stating a banal fact about climber using tick marks.

Jay

Jay, more and more I am noticing a trend in your posts:

You become involved in an argument and a point for point quote war ensues...

Then, amazingly when someone tells you that you are a smart-ass know-it-all you protest, feigning ignorance on how this one incident has made people say something so unfair...

Dude, with a history like yours I find it difficult to understand how you think you can defend such a stance... you act exactly the way angry has described in just about every thread I have seen you post...

You may not think you are a smart-ass, but from your post-history and modus-operandi, everyone else does.

... and that's the way it always is with the speech and debate kid in high-school... he thinks that being right about everything will make him really popular when in actual fact it's the reason that everyone else gives him wedgies!

Cheers,

Adam

PS unless someone quotes this, he'll never see it (I'm a JT killfile veteran)

I see not much has changed here. ...sigh
rd


sidepull


Sep 19, 2007, 2:53 PM
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Re: [sevrdhed] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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sevrdhed wrote:
While you guys have been arguing about this, I went ahead and scrubbed off the tick marks on all of your projects, and then flashed them.


Clean up your ticks.

Trophy!


jt512


Sep 19, 2007, 3:05 PM
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Re: [fenix83] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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fenix83 wrote:

Your response to a previous poster was something to the effect of "your hardest climb is a 5.10". This, to me, is a number-chasers expression. The grade of the climb has very little, if anything, to do with the intensity of the experience.

Neither of you 5.10a climbers is in a position to understand why climbers tick holds. That's why I mentioned the previous climbers climbing level, and that's why I'm mentioning yours.

When you are climbing at that level, you'd hardly ever find a tick mark useful. I don't think I ever ticked a hold on a 5.9 or 5.10 route, even when those levels were difficult for me. When you get on harder routes, things change, and tick marks are very helpful in helping to quickly identify your holds, especially obscure footholds or subtle "sweet spots." At the 5.9 and 5.10- levels quickly identifying small holds is usually not a factor for success. Using the holds effectively is, and tick marks won't help you with that. This is so simple and banal that a heated argument like this could only take place here on n00b.com.

Jay


caughtinside


Sep 19, 2007, 3:15 PM
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Re: [jt512] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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The biggest tick mark I ever saw was 4" long and located a hidden jug on a 5.6 trad climb. (coincidentally my first trad climb ever) Totally ridiculous.

i have nothing real to add to this silly discussion. I've used ticks, on both sport and trad climbs. My ticks are just a dot of chalk, a quick identifier. Mostly for feet, which means that they 'self-clean' as I step on them.

I have left ticks on a sequence intensive sport climb before. The first thing I did after I sent was remove them all with spit and a brush to make it harder for the next guy. I ain't givin' that beta away! hahahaha


fenix83
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Sep 19, 2007, 3:18 PM
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Re: [jt512] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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Jay,

You ignored the bulk of my post, which was directed at your blanket statement regarding number chasing and the motivation to climb except to find a way to drag my 5.10 climbing ability (which you incorrectly assume is my current ability) into the discussion. My comments on you speaking to a previous posters 5.10 ability had nothing to do with my comments about tick marks, which were added quite a bit further.

However....

jt512 wrote:
fenix83 wrote:

Your response to a previous poster was something to the effect of "your hardest climb is a 5.10". This, to me, is a number-chasers expression. The grade of the climb has very little, if anything, to do with the intensity of the experience.

Neither of you 5.10a climbers is in a position to understand why climbers tick holds. That's why I mentioned the previous climbers climbing level, and that's why I'm mentioning yours.

When you are climbing at that level, you'd hardly ever find a tick mark useful. I don't think I ever ticked a hold on a 5.9 or 5.10 route, even when those levels were difficult for me. When you get on harder routes, things change, and tick marks are very helpful in helping to quickly identify your holds, especially obscure footholds or subtle "sweet spots." At the 5.9 and 5.10- levels quickly identifying small holds is usually not a factor for success. Using the holds effectively is, and tick marks won't help you with that. This is so simple and banal that a heated argument like this could only take place here on n00b.com.

Jay

You are fond of pointing out when people contradict themselves, yet you fall into that trap too... (emphasis added)

jt512 wrote:
vegastradguy wrote:
i never understood tickmarks at anything less than the absolute highest levels of climbing, and even then, only on holds that are difficult to see when making a move.

I don't understand why you think tick marks are understandable at only the highest levels of climbing. Tick marks are most helpful when you are climbing at your limit. That is, it's the relative difficulty of the climbing, and not the absolute difficulty, that is relevant.

On difficult redpoints, you tick holds in order to visually identify them quicker, allowing you to climb the route faster, expending less energy, a crucial determinant of redpoint success. Ticks are especially helpful when the hold is difficult to see (eg, a subtle sweet spot on a hold) or its location is confusing (eg, one hold among several nearby similar-looking holds).

In reply to:
and tick marks on cracks make zero sense, except maybe in some very discontinuous 5.14 and up thing that requires a perfect jam in a perfect spot or it doesnt go, and that spot is hard to distinguish from another one.

Again, it's unclear why you think that this is absolute-difficulty based, rather than relative-difficulty based. (snip)


-F


jt512


Sep 19, 2007, 3:32 PM
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fenix83 wrote:
Jay,

You ignored the bulk of my post, which was directed at your blanket statement regarding number chasing and the motivation to climb except to find a way to drag my 5.10 climbing ability (which you incorrectly assume is my current ability) into the discussion. My comments on you speaking to a previous posters 5.10 ability had nothing to do with my comments about tick marks, which were added quite a bit further.

However....

jt512 wrote:
fenix83 wrote:

Your response to a previous poster was something to the effect of "your hardest climb is a 5.10". This, to me, is a number-chasers expression. The grade of the climb has very little, if anything, to do with the intensity of the experience.

Neither of you 5.10a climbers is in a position to understand why climbers tick holds. That's why I mentioned the previous climbers climbing level, and that's why I'm mentioning yours.

When you are climbing at that level, you'd hardly ever find a tick mark useful. I don't think I ever ticked a hold on a 5.9 or 5.10 route, even when those levels were difficult for me. When you get on harder routes, things change, and tick marks are very helpful in helping to quickly identify your holds, especially obscure footholds or subtle "sweet spots." At the 5.9 and 5.10- levels quickly identifying small holds is usually not a factor for success. Using the holds effectively is, and tick marks won't help you with that. This is so simple and banal that a heated argument like this could only take place here on n00b.com.

Jay

You are fond of pointing out when people contradict themselves, yet you fall into that trap too... (emphasis added)

jt512 wrote:
vegastradguy wrote:
i never understood tickmarks at anything less than the absolute highest levels of climbing, and even then, only on holds that are difficult to see when making a move.

I don't understand why you think tick marks are understandable at only the highest levels of climbing. Tick marks are most helpful when you are climbing at your limit. That is, it's the relative difficulty of the climbing, and not the absolute difficulty, that is relevant.

On difficult redpoints, you tick holds in order to visually identify them quicker, allowing you to climb the route faster, expending less energy, a crucial determinant of redpoint success. Ticks are especially helpful when the hold is difficult to see (eg, a subtle sweet spot on a hold) or its location is confusing (eg, one hold among several nearby similar-looking holds).

In reply to:
and tick marks on cracks make zero sense, except maybe in some very discontinuous 5.14 and up thing that requires a perfect jam in a perfect spot or it doesnt go, and that spot is hard to distinguish from another one.

Again, it's unclear why you think that this is absolute-difficulty based, rather than relative-difficulty based. (snip)


-F

True enough, but I wasn't thinking of climbing at 5.10 or below when I made that statement. Sure, people tick 5.9 handhold's for their girlfriends...

Jay


milominderbinder


Sep 19, 2007, 4:00 PM
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Well, I'll just go ahead and throw my opinion out there, cos why not:

I'm breaking into the 12's, and every time I find tick marks on a route I find it irritating. Part of the enjoyment in climbing for me is figuring everything out for myself, tick marks rob me of that.

They admittedly can allow you to send a route faster, as you don't have to spend as much time wiring the moves, but I just call that laziness. You just don't want to put in the time to really learn the route and its movements.

This last part, figuring out the puzzle that is a route, is in some sense what the whole point is. Short-cuts are for things that I don't like (like homework)...I climb because I find it fun, I don't want the easy way.


jt512


Sep 19, 2007, 4:04 PM
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milominderbinder wrote:
This last part, figuring out the puzzle that is a route, is in some sense what the whole point is. Short-cuts are for things that I don't like (like homework)...I climb because I find it fun, I don't want the easy way.

Oddly enough, I think it's exactly the other way around: do what you can to send the route in as few tries as possible, and spend the extra time on your homework.

Jay


knieveltech


Sep 19, 2007, 4:21 PM
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microbarn wrote:
ajkclay wrote:
PS unless someone quotes this, he'll never see it (I'm a JT killfile veteran)
Unless I am mistaken, his kill file also erases things in quotes too. So, he still won't see it. I don't know though because I don't use it.

In any case, a quote by someone else in the killfile (me) still won't change things. It would be just as invisible. Smile

There's a handy way to sidestep that. Remove reference to the poster's name in the start quote tag.


scotchie


Sep 19, 2007, 4:25 PM
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Re: [macherry] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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macherry wrote:
cracklover wrote:
Fuck you, Jay. I climb primarily for the love of climbing. Your claim that the love I feel is a delusion, and that climbing is simply about a desire for higher numbers is a slap in the face, and debasement of something you either don't understand, or don't respect.

Improvement is a small reason for why I, and many people I know, climb. If you can't appreciate much beyond that drive for numbers, fine. But don't claim that it's weakness or self-delusion.

GO

thanks for summing up why i climb....much like why i ski!!!

EXACTLY!!!

Speaking of which... I haven't felt a desire to improve my skiing for years. I enjoy where I'm at.


scotchie


Sep 19, 2007, 4:36 PM
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Re: [mtnfr34k] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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mtnfr34k wrote:
Personally, I'm working on a trad route, and using tick marks to remind myself where gear goes best, since its thin and some placements will have to be blind (meaning I can't visually inspect them until several moves after placing them).
I've never used tick marks placed by others - I've only worked a few routes, but when I do, I have scrubbed any prior ticks and chalk off of holds so that I can figure out the best moves for are for my height and reach, and then leave ticks on the appropriate holds.

Well I don't have any problem with anyone using tickmarks. Just please remove them at the end of the day, unless you know that the person who climbs after you will want them there.

Leaving tickmarks is like leaving litter at the crag plus calling out potentially unwanted beta.

Maybe it doesn't bother you, but it does bother enough other people.


milominderbinder


Sep 19, 2007, 4:41 PM
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Re: [jt512] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
milominderbinder wrote:
This last part, figuring out the puzzle that is a route, is in some sense what the whole point is. Short-cuts are for things that I don't like (like homework)...I climb because I find it fun, I don't want the easy way.

Oddly enough, I think it's exactly the other way around: do what you can to send the route in as few tries as possible, and spend the extra time on your homework.

Jay

Ha, the homework receives the time it needs. But in any case, taking the time to figure out the route hardly demands I neglect the homework. It just means I may have to take more trips to the climb, with the necessary homework breaks between. More trips to the crag make me happy.

Of course, climbing is different to everyone. I climb for the climb, not for the addition to the catalog of 'sent routes.' Tick marks therefore spoil it for me.

The considerate thing to do, then--for those such as yourself that make the marks but enjoy it anyway--is to remove them for people such as myself.


Partner angry


Sep 19, 2007, 5:17 PM
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jt512 wrote:
Neither of you 5.10a climbers is in a position to understand why climbers tick holds. That's why I mentioned the previous climbers climbing level, and that's why I'm mentioning yours.

When you are climbing at that level, you'd hardly ever find a tick mark useful. I don't think I ever ticked a hold on a 5.9 or 5.10 route, even when those levels were difficult for me. When you get on harder routes, things change, and tick marks are very helpful in helping to quickly identify your holds, especially obscure footholds or subtle "sweet spots." At the 5.9 and 5.10- levels quickly identifying small holds is usually not a factor for success. Using the holds effectively is, and tick marks won't help you with that. This is so simple and banal that a heated argument like this could only take place here on n00b.com.

Jay

First, I must say, I effing love this thread. Thanks guys.

Here's the funny part. Jay loves slamming the climbers who don't climb as hard as him in this thread with a basic "when you get better you'll get it" type of statement.

There are 2 if not more posters on this thread who climb EVERY BIT as hard sport and harder trad than Jay who echo the statements of those lowly 5.10 climbers. When called out, he will not mention grades with them, because if he does, his "I'm a badass" arguement loses steam. Those who he's sure he can out-climb he busts their chops readily.

Of the harder climber/posters he just plays dumb and goes after grammer, spelling, or other such nonsense.

I would too. He wouldn't want his whole arguement to crumble with the admission that people (more than just me and camhead) are climbing 5.12 sport, trad, and pushing harder and harder whenever we get the chance. Worse yet, we don't appreciate or use tickmarks.

Remember guys, it's impossible to push 5.12 and up sport or trad, without tickmarks. It's just impossible.


wmfork


Sep 19, 2007, 5:29 PM
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jt512 wrote:
At the 5.9 and 5.10- levels quickly identifying small holds is usually not a factor for success. Using the holds effectively is, and tick marks won't help you with that. This is so simple and banal that a heated argument like this could only take place here on n00b.com.

Jay

I'm sure this is an exercise of futility... But back to the OP.

The route we climbed was called Pervertical Sanctuary. Yes it is rated 10c (or 11a)... for ONE pitch (of a 6 pitch route). It was ticked from bottom to the top, through all the 5.9 pitches.

You can be on your high horses to say tick marks won't help you on a 5.9/5.10-, but the (alleged) pro-climber decided that it'd be helpfully when soloing it.

Now go ahead and state "but I said usually, not always, and not when soloing".


Partner angry


Sep 19, 2007, 5:32 PM
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Ooops, the count just went up to 3. Three that I know of who climb as hard as Jay on this thread, without ticks.

Carry on.


microbarn


Sep 19, 2007, 5:49 PM
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angry wrote:
Ooops, the count just went up to 3. Three that I know of who climb as hard as Jay on this thread, without ticks.

Carry on.

If it weren't for the fact that everyone enjoys a good Jay bashing, this thread would have died a long time ago. The people that do use/like ticks all agree they should be removed.


camhead


Sep 19, 2007, 6:27 PM
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dude, the thing is, it does not matter what a climb is rated; if you are at your limit, it will feel the same. I remember back when I was getting into climbing, annd getting pumped to all hell on the heinous crimps of 10a's!

So, by that logic, it IS all right for any climber to tick, regardless of grade. A 5.14 climber could easily come along to Jay and say "what, you are ticking a 5.12? That's just for HARD climbs."


knieveltech


Sep 19, 2007, 6:29 PM
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microbarn wrote:
angry wrote:
Ooops, the count just went up to 3. Three that I know of who climb as hard as Jay on this thread, without ticks.

Carry on.

If it weren't for the fact that everyone enjoys a good Jay bashing, this thread would have died a long time ago. The people that do use/like ticks all agree they should be removed.

Or they're smart enough to keep their mouth shut and enjoy the show.


jt512


Sep 19, 2007, 6:33 PM
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camhead wrote:
dude, the thing is, it does not matter what a climb is rated; if you are at your limit, it will feel the same. I remember back when I was getting into climbing, annd getting pumped to all hell on the heinous crimps of 10a's!

So, by that logic, it IS all right for any climber to tick, regardless of grade. A 5.14 climber could easily come along to Jay and say "what, you are ticking a 5.12? That's just for HARD climbs."

I basically agree with this, but the nature of the difficulty does change somewhat among grades. It's not surprising that the 5.9 and 5.10a climbers don't, for the most part, understand how advantageous tick marks can be.

Jay


jt512


Sep 19, 2007, 6:39 PM
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angry wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Neither of you 5.10a climbers is in a position to understand why climbers tick holds. That's why I mentioned the previous climbers climbing level, and that's why I'm mentioning yours.

When you are climbing at that level, you'd hardly ever find a tick mark useful. I don't think I ever ticked a hold on a 5.9 or 5.10 route, even when those levels were difficult for me. When you get on harder routes, things change, and tick marks are very helpful in helping to quickly identify your holds, especially obscure footholds or subtle "sweet spots." At the 5.9 and 5.10- levels quickly identifying small holds is usually not a factor for success. Using the holds effectively is, and tick marks won't help you with that. This is so simple and banal that a heated argument like this could only take place here on n00b.com.

Jay

First, I must say, I effing love this thread. Thanks guys.

Here's the funny part. Jay loves slamming the climbers who don't climb as hard as him in this thread with a basic "when you get better you'll get it" type of statement.

There are 2 if not more posters on this thread who climb EVERY BIT as hard sport and harder trad than Jay who echo the statements of those lowly 5.10 climbers.

Well, there always is a minority opinion. The fact is that the vast majority of sport climbers who climb at least 5.12 use tick marks on projects at their limit, a practice that they will continue without the least concern over the enraged opinions of a few outliers posting on this website.

Jay


camhead


Sep 19, 2007, 6:41 PM
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well, at many crags it has obviously gotten to the point of 5.10 climbers seeing tickmarks on hard routes, and thinking "oh, I can do that on my project!" I have seen ticks on 5.9 handcracks in the desert.


flint


Sep 19, 2007, 6:41 PM
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fenix83 wrote:
Jay,

You ignored the bulk of my post, which was directed at your blanket statement regarding number chasing and the motivation to climb except to find a way to drag my 5.10 climbing ability (which you incorrectly assume is my current ability) into the discussion. My comments on you speaking to a previous posters 5.10 ability had nothing to do with my comments about tick marks, which were added quite a bit further.

However....

jt512 wrote:
fenix83 wrote:

Your response to a previous poster was something to the effect of "your hardest climb is a 5.10". This, to me, is a number-chasers expression. The grade of the climb has very little, if anything, to do with the intensity of the experience.

Neither of you 5.10a climbers is in a position to understand why climbers tick holds. That's why I mentioned the previous climbers climbing level, and that's why I'm mentioning yours.

When you are climbing at that level, you'd hardly ever find a tick mark useful. I don't think I ever ticked a hold on a 5.9 or 5.10 route, even when those levels were difficult for me. When you get on harder routes, things change, and tick marks are very helpful in helping to quickly identify your holds, especially obscure footholds or subtle "sweet spots." At the 5.9 and 5.10- levels quickly identifying small holds is usually not a factor for success. Using the holds effectively is, and tick marks won't help you with that. This is so simple and banal that a heated argument like this could only take place here on n00b.com.

Jay

You are fond of pointing out when people contradict themselves, yet you fall into that trap too... (emphasis added)

jt512 wrote:
vegastradguy wrote:
i never understood tickmarks at anything less than the absolute highest levels of climbing, and even then, only on holds that are difficult to see when making a move.

I don't understand why you think tick marks are understandable at only the highest levels of climbing. Tick marks are most helpful when you are climbing at your limit. That is, it's the relative difficulty of the climbing, and not the absolute difficulty, that is relevant.

On difficult redpoints, you tick holds in order to visually identify them quicker, allowing you to climb the route faster, expending less energy, a crucial determinant of redpoint success. Ticks are especially helpful when the hold is difficult to see (eg, a subtle sweet spot on a hold) or its location is confusing (eg, one hold among several nearby similar-looking holds).

In reply to:
and tick marks on cracks make zero sense, except maybe in some very discontinuous 5.14 and up thing that requires a perfect jam in a perfect spot or it doesnt go, and that spot is hard to distinguish from another one.

Again, it's unclear why you think that this is absolute-difficulty based, rather than relative-difficulty based. (snip)


-F

Trophy.

To this statment, Jay had only the Angry discribed response.

j-


(This post was edited by flint on Sep 19, 2007, 6:43 PM)


jt512


Sep 19, 2007, 6:46 PM
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Posts: 21890

Re: [camhead] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
well, at many crags it has obviously gotten to the point of 5.10 climbers seeing tickmarks on hard routes, and thinking "oh, I can do that on my project!" I have seen ticks on 5.9 handcracks in the desert.

Good. Fewer enraged gumbies I have to listen to.

Jay


milominderbinder


Sep 19, 2007, 7:44 PM
Post #174 of 317 (6867 views)
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Registered: Dec 3, 2005
Posts: 84

Re: [jt512] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Well, there always is a minority opinion. The fact is that the vast majority of sport climbers who climb at least 5.12 use tick marks on projects at their limit, a practice that they will continue without the least concern over the enraged opinions of a few outliers posting on this website.

Jay

Now that's a pretty big claim for someone who is usually such a stickler for people having more than anecdotal evidence for making any kind of claim.


jt512


Sep 19, 2007, 7:57 PM
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Re: [milominderbinder] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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milominderbinder wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Well, there always is a minority opinion. The fact is that the vast majority of sport climbers who climb at least 5.12 use tick marks on projects at their limit, a practice that they will continue without the least concern over the enraged opinions of a few outliers posting on this website.

Jay

Now that's a pretty big claim for someone who is usually such a stickler for people having more than anecdotal evidence for making any kind of claim.

No, not really. You get out much?

Jay

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