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dudemanbu


Sep 19, 2007, 8:51 PM
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what's a tick mark?


murf


Sep 19, 2007, 8:54 PM
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The last time I used tic marks, I made sure to remove them. Then I ticked all sorts of other holds that didn't really work ( at least for me ). But that was a project that has sent been sent.

Look, I don't spurt climb much, nor do I climb very hard trad. I would agree with Jay on a few points.

First, I have used tic marks on sequences that require fast movement and subtle use of holds. A hair off and the hold is useless to me. Sometimes if the hold is out of sight a directional tic is useful. When I climb 5.9 I have never needed these sorts of things. I don't know why, perhaps because I'm super rad. I think its much more likely that 5.9 ( and 5.10 ) climbing is just not that subtle.

I've tic'd a crack or too, usually fingers, as again placement is important.

I've always brushed them off.

Regarding 5.12 and above sport climbing in SoCal? I'd take Jay's word of what is commonly done rather than angry, angry's girl, and camhead. Why you might ask? Mostly because he's a 5.12 sport climber that is active in SoCal. Neither of the other 3 cool kids are.

-Murf


murf


Sep 19, 2007, 8:56 PM
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Oh and Angry.... Did you brush off all the tics on PS?


camhead


Sep 19, 2007, 9:02 PM
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damn, yer right, I'm not active in SoCal. What have I been doing with my life?

(camhead hangs his head, sells his rack on ebay, and realizes that his whole life has been a lie.)


Partner angry


Sep 19, 2007, 9:11 PM
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Re: [murf] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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murf wrote:
than angry, angry's girl, and camhead.

Dude, you so called it. Shumin, you're my bitch!!! Now make me a sandwich


murf


Sep 19, 2007, 9:18 PM
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Re: [camhead] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
damn, yer right, I'm not active in SoCal. What have I been doing with my life?

(camhead hangs his head, sells his rack on ebay, and realizes that his whole life has been a lie.)

Yawn ... Weak sauce. Didn't say you weren't worthy of all the praise you so rightly deserve. Most spurt climbers in SoCal realize its a fucking wasteland of hell with no truly good climbers.

Doesn't change the fact that Jay spoke to tic mark use in SoCal, does it? Something that all the self appointed "hard cores du-ads/ettes" in this thread don't have much 1st hand knowledge of.

If you and Angry go back to back you might be able to climb out of this one.

I didn't see anyone in the thread thinks that tic marks should be left long term BTW. Lets make sure, mkay CH? I wouldn't want you to sell that rack too soon. I mean, you're in the prime of your spray here.

Jay, do you think you should clean up your tics after a send?


jt512


Sep 19, 2007, 9:29 PM
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murf wrote:
Jay, do you think you should clean up your tics after a send?

In a sport area, not really. I think most sport climbers would rather have tick marks up than not. In terms of getting the redpoint quicker, they probably do more good than harm. Sport climbing is mainly a redpointing activity, and it should go without saying (though nothing does when arguing with gumbies) that getting a redpoint in fewer tries is desirable (no matter how good the movement is :roll:). Redpointing is not onsighting, and once you've decided to go for a redpoint, you usually want all the beta you can get, and tick marks are just a form of beta.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 19, 2007, 9:31 PM)


flint


Sep 19, 2007, 10:17 PM
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jt512 wrote:
murf wrote:
Jay, do you think you should clean up your tics after a send?

In a sport area, not really. I think most sport climbers would rather have tick marks up than not. In terms of getting the redpoint quicker, they probably do more good than harm. Sport climbing is mainly a redpointing activity, and it should go without saying (though nothing does when arguing with gumbies) that getting a redpoint in fewer tries is desirable (no matter how good the movement is :roll:). Redpointing is not onsighting, and once you've decided to go for a redpoint, you usually want all the beta you can get, and tick marks are just a form of beta.

Jay

And for those that want to onsight? Granted you said that sport climbing is a red-point activity, true or not, but what is the chance of an onsight when the route was pre ticked.


davidji


Sep 19, 2007, 10:25 PM
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Re: [caughtinside] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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caughtinside wrote:
The biggest tick mark I ever saw was 4" long and located a hidden jug on a 5.6 trad climb. (coincidentally my first trad climb ever) Totally ridiculous.
There was a big tick mark on Knapsack Crack the other day. Fun climb, but marginally 5th class, and no harder than some approaches.


dingus


Sep 19, 2007, 11:09 PM
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microbarn wrote:
The people that do use/like ticks all agree they should be removed.

Nope, fracture says leaving his cheat marks on the rock is a sign of RESPECT. J said it too. They rationalize thier laziness, simple as that.

DMT


dingus


Sep 19, 2007, 11:10 PM
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Re: [jt512] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
murf wrote:
Jay, do you think you should clean up your tics after a send?

In a sport area, not really. I think most sport climbers would rather have tick marks up than not.

Rationalization of a champion. A lazy champion.

DMT


ajkclay


Sep 19, 2007, 11:18 PM
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Re: [angry] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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basically, this discussion and ensuing arguments revolve around:
angry wrote:
... a 10c (possibly up to 11a depending on who you ask) that doesn't have a hidden or devious move anywhere on it. I'm relatively certain that these ticks were put there by a big name climber who soloed the route last week.
Further, Angry is:
angry wrote:
... relatively certain that these ticks were put there by a big name climber who soloed the route last week.

Now despite the grade of this climb and the abilities of the climber in question initially there was a:
JT512 wrote:
... reasonable assumption that high-end sport routes will only be climbed by high-end sport climbers, then leaving the tick marks in place is doing the next climber a favor

but then in defence of this stance:
"jt512 wrote:
I don't understand why you think tick marks are understandable at only the highest levels of climbing. Tick marks are most helpful when you are climbing at your limit. That is, it's the relative difficulty of the climbing, and not the absolute difficulty, that is relevant.

... with the further assertion:
jt512 wrote:
... it's unclear why you think that this is absolute-difficulty based, rather than relative-difficulty based

and most certainly that a climber with climbing abilities greater than the grade of the route in question
jt512 wrote:
... wouldn't have needed... (a tick mark*)... because he would have had the experience to easily spot the placement

Now, despite the contention that it is not about grade but rather the relative difficulty
jt512 wrote:
Dude, come on, the hardest red point on your tick list is 5.10a!
it's beginning to become unravelled here we even get a strawman:
jt512 wrote:
You don't see gymnasts saying, I'm happy with an 8 on the parallel bars

...and an ad hominem:
jt512 wrote:
Has your reading comprehension deteriorated, too?

we then get into interesting contradiction to the completely unqualified blanket statements from earlier:
jt512 wrote:
Neither of you 5.10a climbers is in a position to understand why climbers tick holds.

but why Jay?

jt512 wrote:
When you are climbing at that level, you'd hardly ever find a tick mark useful. I don't think I ever ticked a hold on a 5.9 or 5.10 route, even when those levels were difficult for me. When you get on harder routes, things change, and tick marks are very helpful in helping to quickly identify your holds, especially obscure footholds or subtle "sweet spots." At the 5.9 and 5.10- levels quickly identifying small holds is usually not a factor for success. Using the holds effectively is, and tick marks won't help you with that. This is so simple and banal that a heated argument like this could only take place here on n00b.com.

which is defended by the thinly-veiled ad hominem (it's interesting to note we have sexist remarks too):
jt512 wrote:
True enough, but I wasn't thinking of climbing at 5.10 or below when I made that statement. Sure, people tick 5.9 handhold's for their girlfriends...


ummmm yes you were:
jt512 wrote:
I don't need to tick footholds on 5.10 routes, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't help a fledgling 5.10 climber.

Now, of course:
jt512 wrote:
The fact is that the vast majority of sport climbers who climb at least 5.12 use tick marks on projects at their limit"
(emphasis mine)
... but didn't angry already establish this wasn't a limit climb?

So, to conclude... Basically we begin with Angry making a statement about someone ticking a route well below their actual ability and not cleaning them up. A large part of his complaint was that none of these holds were difficult to find.

jt512 then weighs in with contentions that it's not about the grade of the climb but the relative difficulty of the climb to the individual, which theoretically agrees with angry. Essentially jt512 contends that grade and ticks are not grade dependent.

Then, amazingly jt512 opens fire with some great ad-hominem remarks about the climbing grade of his opponents suggesting that despite his previous assertions that grade does not matter with regards to tick-use - for the convenience of his argument it now does and that 5.10 climbers would not understand their use (!)

It gets pretty messy, but really this trainwreck of a character suicide has been brought to you by jt512.

Oh, by the way, to finish we also had this exchange:
jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
... your posts normally contain a great deal of arrogance...

This is essentially a repetition of your earlier claim, which you have not supported with any objective evidence. Unless you can do so, I maintain that my posts are simply matter of fact statements about common sport climbing practices, and that your interpreting them as "arrogant" is simply a reflection of your own insecurity or ignorance.

we get some spray:
jt512 wrote:
Considering that I've led trad two number grades harder than you have...


and:
jt512 wrote:
I started out only killfiling the most egregious idiots, but I'm going through a phase where I'm not really interested in reading posts by people who have little if anything useful to contribute.

plus:
jt512 wrote:
Another reasoning-impaired whiner desperately trying to rationalize stagnant performance.


... I guess that satisfies the burden of proof for the arrogance contention Laugh


Sigh, anyone else for taking up that killfile offer in his sig for ridding rc.com of his arrogant prattling?

Really, it's ironic that the one who most deserves to be killfiled is offering us the ability.

I'm using that link, thanks Jay! Oh, and goodbye!

Cheers Adam Cool




* Brackets mine for clarification.


flint


Sep 19, 2007, 11:34 PM
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Nice Adam. Thanks for the name omit, that way if there is anyone left not on jay's kill fill that will stumble along and quote this master piece of an executive summary, jay will get to make a new and always inventive excuse for his actions.

j-


jt512


Sep 19, 2007, 11:59 PM
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dingus wrote:
jt512 wrote:
murf wrote:
Jay, do you think you should clean up your tics after a send?

In a sport area, not really. I think most sport climbers would rather have tick marks up than not.

Rationalization of a champion. A lazy champion.

DMT

Tick marks help you send the route faster. If I can send the route in two fewer burns because someone left tick marks there, then I'm all for it. There's nothing lazy about it. It's not like I'm going to quit climbing after I get the route in 4 burns instead of 6. I'm starting in on the next project. If you want to accuse me of laziness, then perhaps we should compare the efforts that each of puts into getting stronger, improving his movement on rock, and controlling his body weight first.

Jay


jaybro


Sep 20, 2007, 12:57 AM
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"If I can send the route in two fewer burns because someone left tick marks there, then I'm all for it. There's nothing lazy about it."

How is that in any way, anything but, lazy?

Why not have someone just tell you about the climb? then you don'y even have to go there.


(This post was edited by jaybro on Sep 20, 2007, 1:00 AM)


jt512


Sep 20, 2007, 1:20 AM
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jaybro wrote:
"If I can send the route in two fewer burns because someone left tick marks there, then I'm all for it. There's nothing lazy about it."

How is that in any way, anything but, lazy?

How is it lazy? Well if the idea were to get the route in as many burns as possible, then I guess it would be.

Jay


jaybro


Sep 20, 2007, 1:32 AM
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It's lazy, because you don't bother to work the puzzle yourself. You just follow someone else's beta. You complete a task at somone else's direction. As useful as it can be as a training technique, or to inventory moves for future climbs, it's just a step along the way. The real test doesn't come with used, underlined texts.

though you can learn from them, you don't get original material from clif™ notes.


jt512


Sep 20, 2007, 1:43 AM
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jaybro wrote:
It's lazy, because you don't bother to work the puzzle yourself.

I'm not necessarily interested in working out the entire "puzzle" for myself. I'm interested in getting the redpoint as quickly as possible, and moving on to the next project. REDPOINTING IS NOT ONSIGHT CLIMBING. Tick marks from the last person's ascent is no different from getting verbal beta from the last guy. Beta is not exactly a new phenomenon in this sport. BTW, do you still climb?

In reply to:
The real test doesn't come with used, underlined texts.

"Real" according to whose definition? No one gives a fuck about what guys whose brains have been infected by 30-year-old "climbing ethics" (which were never anything more than Royal Robbins' mental masturbations) think is "real."

Jay


moose_droppings


Sep 20, 2007, 4:44 AM
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jt512 wrote:
I'm interested in getting the redpoint as quickly as possible, and moving on to the next project.

This is like children (self absorbed) that toss their old game once they've been all the way thru it once and go on to the next. Unfortunately there's only so much rock right next to the road for you to bolt up so you don't have to use your burn on the approach.

jt512 wrote:
"Real" according to whose definition? No one gives a fuck about what guys whose brains have been infected by 30-year-old "climbing ethics" (which were never anything more than Royal Robbins' mental masturbations) think is "real."

I'm not going to accuse you of being an ambassador for the sport since its obvious your personal wants are more important than anything else. In fact, your lack of respect assures your lack of deserving any. But you do reinforce the negative attitude many people have toward the new outdoor gymbies. You may have even driven a wider wedge between climbers themselves.
Congrats.


Edited to fix quotes


(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Sep 20, 2007, 4:50 AM)


mojomonkey


Sep 20, 2007, 5:43 AM
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I usually just mark the holds that aren't good so I am not suckered into using them.


wanderlustmd


Sep 20, 2007, 6:12 AM
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^that's a new one


wmfork


Sep 20, 2007, 7:16 AM
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angry wrote:
murf wrote:
than angry, angry's girl, and camhead.

Dude, you so called it. Shumin, you're my bitch!!! Now make me a sandwich
Yeah, I'll make you a turd sandwich... With the way it was worded, camhead sounded like your redheaded step-child.

Now murf, what kind of faggot would carry a brush up an alpine route?


dingus


Sep 20, 2007, 7:18 AM
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jt512 wrote:
Tick marks help you send the route faster. If I can send the route in two fewer burns because someone left tick marks there, then I'm all for it.

I don't care if you tick mark yer terlit dude. But your points in this thread are incredibly funny rationalizations, when it comes to cleaning them up.

Understand... I don't care if you leave brown steamers at the base of every sport crag you visit. I'm justnot buying the crap that you're doing it for the next guy.

DMT


zeke_sf


Sep 20, 2007, 7:27 AM
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mojomonkey wrote:
I usually just mark the holds that aren't good so I am not suckered into using them.

The metolius chalk department thanks you.


murf


Sep 20, 2007, 7:32 AM
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wmfork wrote:
angry wrote:
murf wrote:
than angry, angry's girl, and camhead.

Dude, you so called it. Shumin, you're my bitch!!! Now make me a sandwich
Yeah, I'll make you a turd sandwich... With the way it was worded, camhead sounded like your redheaded step-child.

Now murf, what kind of faggot would carry a brush up an alpine route?

Whoa... Sorry almost missed this one in the fun above.

So can I assume that Angry ( and you I presume ), did nothing to mitigate the marking of this backcountry classic? Other than coming to this bastion of climbosity, rc.com, and make a no-nonsense plea for tic control?

Now if I was so outraged, I think I could have come up with a couple of ways to clean *some* of the marks off. Especially if I had biked 1000 miles, hiked in with extra rocks in my pack for training, climbed it blindfolded and upside down.

Can I sum up a position or two?

Jay: I like tic marks on my hard sport routes. I like when other climbers leave them. Not only that, I do a service to other hard sport climbers and leave mine for posterity.

Angry/ette: I hate tic marks and famous climbers. I hate them so much I rage about them on rc.com. I do not hate them enough to clean them off.


-Murf

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