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dingus


Sep 20, 2007, 7:37 AM
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Horseshit murf.


I hate horseshit on the trail. I occasionally complain about that fact on the internet. I do not clean it up.

Pray for me.

DMT


wmfork


Sep 20, 2007, 7:52 AM
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angry wrote:
a big thick tick on every single nub or edge. Ticked like a gym climb.

Maybe I'm unimaginative (or maybe I was already freezing my balls off), but with no brush or water, what was one suppose to do, start pissing on it? Angry can spray all he wants to, but my sea-level born lung was having a tough time climbing at 14,000ft.

But hey, whatever, lesson learned. I'm carrying a brush to IC this weekend.


murf


Sep 20, 2007, 7:57 AM
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dingus wrote:
Horseshit murf.


I hate horseshit on the trail. I occasionally complain about that fact on the internet. I do not clean it up.

Pray for me.

I've lit a candle at my alter of Horus for you.

Now until the tic marks are made with horseshit, I don't think you have a point.

Nice double entendre.

Was it just me, or did NF of BP have more horseshit than ever? It was like a string of constipated pack animals acquired a spontaneous bowl purgative. I blame Jay for it, of course.


caughtinside


Sep 20, 2007, 8:16 AM
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what a great little thread! I think adam's creepy in depth stalk-dissection takes the cake though! That must have taken half an hour at least!


wanderlustmd


Sep 20, 2007, 8:16 AM
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angry wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Neither of you 5.10a climbers is in a position to understand why climbers tick holds. That's why I mentioned the previous climbers climbing level, and that's why I'm mentioning yours.

When you are climbing at that level, you'd hardly ever find a tick mark useful. I don't think I ever ticked a hold on a 5.9 or 5.10 route, even when those levels were difficult for me. When you get on harder routes, things change, and tick marks are very helpful in helping to quickly identify your holds, especially obscure footholds or subtle "sweet spots." At the 5.9 and 5.10- levels quickly identifying small holds is usually not a factor for success. Using the holds effectively is, and tick marks won't help you with that. This is so simple and banal that a heated argument like this could only take place here on n00b.com.

Jay

First, I must say, I effing love this thread. Thanks guys.

Here's the funny part. Jay loves slamming the climbers who don't climb as hard as him in this thread with a basic "when you get better you'll get it" type of statement.

There are 2 if not more posters on this thread who climb EVERY BIT as hard sport and harder trad than Jay who echo the statements of those lowly 5.10 climbers. When called out, he will not mention grades with them, because if he does, his "I'm a badass" arguement loses steam. Those who he's sure he can out-climb he busts their chops readily.

Of the harder climber/posters he just plays dumb and goes after grammer, spelling, or other such nonsense.

I would too. He wouldn't want his whole arguement to crumble with the admission that people (more than just me and camhead) are climbing 5.12 sport, trad, and pushing harder and harder whenever we get the chance. Worse yet, we don't appreciate or use tickmarks.

Remember guys, it's impossible to push 5.12 and up sport or trad, without tickmarks. It's just impossible.

I'd like to point out that "Angry" is the calmest one in the thread. Wink




He's also right.

But then again, I'm a lowly 5.8 trad climber who doesn't know shit, so Jay I'm going to link to my profile to make it easier for you to piss your infinite wisdom on my lowly achievements.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ername=wanderlustmd;


(This post was edited by wanderlustmd on Sep 20, 2007, 8:17 AM)


golsen


Sep 20, 2007, 8:58 AM
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jt512,

many of us would like to see your point of view, but are unwilling to stick our heads up your a$$.

On a side note if you are only pulling down 5.12 in 2007 you are weaksauce and mine is bigger than yours.


zeke_sf


Sep 20, 2007, 9:38 AM
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wanderlustmd wrote:
angry wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Neither of you 5.10a climbers is in a position to understand why climbers tick holds. That's why I mentioned the previous climbers climbing level, and that's why I'm mentioning yours.

When you are climbing at that level, you'd hardly ever find a tick mark useful. I don't think I ever ticked a hold on a 5.9 or 5.10 route, even when those levels were difficult for me. When you get on harder routes, things change, and tick marks are very helpful in helping to quickly identify your holds, especially obscure footholds or subtle "sweet spots." At the 5.9 and 5.10- levels quickly identifying small holds is usually not a factor for success. Using the holds effectively is, and tick marks won't help you with that. This is so simple and banal that a heated argument like this could only take place here on n00b.com.

Jay

First, I must say, I effing love this thread. Thanks guys.

Here's the funny part. Jay loves slamming the climbers who don't climb as hard as him in this thread with a basic "when you get better you'll get it" type of statement.

There are 2 if not more posters on this thread who climb EVERY BIT as hard sport and harder trad than Jay who echo the statements of those lowly 5.10 climbers. When called out, he will not mention grades with them, because if he does, his "I'm a badass" arguement loses steam. Those who he's sure he can out-climb he busts their chops readily.

Of the harder climber/posters he just plays dumb and goes after grammer, spelling, or other such nonsense.

I would too. He wouldn't want his whole arguement to crumble with the admission that people (more than just me and camhead) are climbing 5.12 sport, trad, and pushing harder and harder whenever we get the chance. Worse yet, we don't appreciate or use tickmarks.

Remember guys, it's impossible to push 5.12 and up sport or trad, without tickmarks. It's just impossible.

I'd like to point out that "Angry" is the calmest one in the thread. Wink




He's also right.

But then again, I'm a lowly 5.8 trad climber who doesn't know shit, so Jay I'm going to link to my profile to make it easier for you to piss your infinite wisdom on my lowly achievements.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ername=wanderlustmd;

Calmer than you are, dude. Calmer than you are.

When's somebody gonna drop the angry tickmark bomz? Enlighten the peeps, spread the rage!

The best idea out of all of this is using horse manure for ticking purposes. Seriously. Then you'd have to think about making that mark, and the smell would be incentive to clean it off. Of course, the horse would have to have a lot of pus in its crap or something for it to show up right....


mtnfr34k


Sep 20, 2007, 10:08 AM
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scotchie wrote:
Maybe it doesn't bother you, but it does bother enough other people.
Scotchie,
I'll certainly keep it mind, but I don't think that it bothers near as many people as you claim. This forum is certainly not representative of the community!
Chris


shockabuku


Sep 20, 2007, 10:24 AM
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mtnfr34k wrote:
This forum is certainly not representative of the community!

Which community, and why not?


shockabuku


Sep 20, 2007, 10:33 AM
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So, between this thread and Dingus' "A Remarkable Statement" thread (http://www.rockclimbing.com/...20statement;#1678644) it's occurred to me that I have never onsighted a route since I've had the beta of either knowing the route goes at some grade or chalk holds or something and that the only real onsight anyway is an FA or one in which you walk up to some piece of rock completely unknowing whether it goes or regardless if someone else has sent it previously.


lemon_boy


Sep 20, 2007, 10:35 AM
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jay,

your assertion that 'the vast majority' of climbers climbing in the 12 range use ticks is absolute bullshit. maybe at new crap city, or your other little crag that is being 'secretly' developed. over the last 20 years i have climbed with probably 30 or more people who have, or are currently climbing at the 5.12 to 5.13 level. there is not one single occasion that i can recall where one of my partners has placed a tick, or declared that ticking a hold would be beneficial. vast majority? give me a fucking break.

second, saying that sport climbing is primarily a redpointing activity is again, for lack of a better term, complete bullshit. i would say that the majority of the people that i know spend probably 75% of their time onsighting and 25% of their time redpointing. but, i guess spending any time onsighting makes them inferior climbers eh?

third, you say that having the holds ticked is beneficial to climbers doing the route. again, i think this is complete bullshit. different people are going to do the route differently. i have several climbing partners who are a lot shorter/smaller than i am, and we ALWAYS do routes quite differently. you act as if tick marks are a community service. get a fucking clue.


mtnfr34k


Sep 20, 2007, 10:37 AM
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shockabuku wrote:
mtnfr34k wrote:
This forum is certainly not representative of the community!

Which community, and why not?

Of the climbing community at large - only 1 or 2 climbers out of every 5 that I have met admit to posting on RC, or CascadeClimbers, or SuperTopo. So while I find these discussions entertaining, enlightening, and educational, I don't believe that the opinions expressed inside represent the much larger climbing community accurately or precisely. So opinions such as scotchie's will influence me the next time I head out to my project, but I'm not going to change my behavior solely based on what I read here over the last few days. I think, most likely, is that I'm going to strike up a conversation with the climbers around me and ask them for their opinions on the question.

And Jay really is an ass. I don't really read any of his posts after the first one in a thread. But I can't bear the idea of killfiling him - or anyone else - because I'm afraid I'll miss something in the conversation.

Chris


knieveltech


Sep 20, 2007, 10:42 AM
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In reply to:
basically, this discussion and ensuing arguments revolve around:
angry wrote:
... a 10c (possibly up to 11a depending on who you ask) that doesn't have a hidden or devious move anywhere on it. I'm relatively certain that these ticks were put there by a big name climber who soloed the route last week.
Further, Angry is:
In reply to:
Angry:... relatively certain that these ticks were put there by a big name climber who soloed the route last week.

Now despite the grade of this climb and the abilities of the climber in question initially there was a:
JT512 wrote:
... reasonable assumption that high-end sport routes will only be climbed by high-end sport climbers, then leaving the tick marks in place is doing the next climber a favor

but then in defence of this stance:
"jt512 wrote:
I don't understand why you think tick marks are understandable at only the highest levels of climbing. Tick marks are most helpful when you are climbing at your limit. That is, it's the relative difficulty of the climbing, and not the absolute difficulty, that is relevant.

... with the further assertion:
jt512 wrote:
... it's unclear why you think that this is absolute-difficulty based, rather than relative-difficulty based

and most certainly that a climber with climbing abilities greater than the grade of the route in question
jt512 wrote:
... wouldn't have needed... (a tick mark*)... because he would have had the experience to easily spot the placement

Now, despite the contention that it is not about grade but rather the relative difficulty
jt512 wrote:
Dude, come on, the hardest red point on your tick list is 5.10a!
it's beginning to become unravelled here we even get a strawman:
jt512 wrote:
You don't see gymnasts saying, I'm happy with an 8 on the parallel bars

...and an ad hominem:
jt512 wrote:
Has your reading comprehension deteriorated, too?

we then get into interesting contradiction to the completely unqualified blanket statements from earlier:
jt512 wrote:
Neither of you 5.10a climbers is in a position to understand why climbers tick holds.

but why Jay?

jt512 wrote:
When you are climbing at that level, you'd hardly ever find a tick mark useful. I don't think I ever ticked a hold on a 5.9 or 5.10 route, even when those levels were difficult for me. When you get on harder routes, things change, and tick marks are very helpful in helping to quickly identify your holds, especially obscure footholds or subtle "sweet spots." At the 5.9 and 5.10- levels quickly identifying small holds is usually not a factor for success. Using the holds effectively is, and tick marks won't help you with that. This is so simple and banal that a heated argument like this could only take place here on n00b.com.

which is defended by the thinly-veiled ad hominem (it's interesting to note we have sexist remarks too):
jt512 wrote:
True enough, but I wasn't thinking of climbing at 5.10 or below when I made that statement. Sure, people tick 5.9 handhold's for their girlfriends...


ummmm yes you were:
jt512 wrote:
I don't need to tick footholds on 5.10 routes, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't help a fledgling 5.10 climber.

Now, of course:
jt512 wrote:
The fact is that the vast majority of sport climbers who climb at least 5.12 use tick marks on projects at their limit"
(emphasis mine)
... but didn't angry already establish this wasn't a limit climb?

So, to conclude... Basically we begin with Angry making a statement about someone ticking a route well below their actual ability and not cleaning them up. A large part of his complaint was that none of these holds were difficult to find.

jt512 then weighs in with contentions that it's not about the grade of the climb but the relative difficulty of the climb to the individual, which theoretically agrees with angry. Essentially jt512 contends that grade and ticks are not grade dependent.

Then, amazingly jt512 opens fire with some great ad-hominem remarks about the climbing grade of his opponents suggesting that despite his previous assertions that grade does not matter with regards to tick-use - for the convenience of his argument it now does and that 5.10 climbers would not understand their use (!)

It gets pretty messy, but really this trainwreck of a character suicide has been brought to you by jt512.

Oh, by the way, to finish we also had this exchange:
jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
... your posts normally contain a great deal of arrogance...

This is essentially a repetition of your earlier claim, which you have not supported with any objective evidence. Unless you can do so, I maintain that my posts are simply matter of fact statements about common sport climbing practices, and that your interpreting them as "arrogant" is simply a reflection of your own insecurity or ignorance.

we get some spray:
jt512 wrote:
Considering that I've led trad two number grades harder than you have...


and:
jt512 wrote:
I started out only killfiling the most egregious idiots, but I'm going through a phase where I'm not really interested in reading posts by people who have little if anything useful to contribute.

plus:
jt512 wrote:
Another reasoning-impaired whiner desperately trying to rationalize stagnant performance.


... I guess that satisfies the burden of proof for the arrogance contention Laugh


Sigh, anyone else for taking up that killfile offer in his sig for ridding rc.com of his arrogant prattling?

Really, it's ironic that the one who most deserves to be killfiled is offering us the ability.

I'm using that link, thanks Jay! Oh, and goodbye!

Cheers Adam Cool




* Brackets mine for clarification.

quoted for posterity, poster indicators stripped to sidestep killfiling (unless Jay has decided to killfile himself, or me for that matter). Definitely a trophy post. It isn't every day you see someone slit someone else's throat on the net quite this effectively. Well played.


(This post was edited by knieveltech on Sep 20, 2007, 10:46 AM)


shockabuku


Sep 20, 2007, 10:45 AM
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shockabuku wrote:
mtnfr34k wrote:
This forum is certainly not representative of the community!

Which community, and why not?

mtnfr34k wrote:
Of the climbing community at large - only 1 or 2 climbers out of every 5 that I have met admit to posting on RC, or CascadeClimbers, or SuperTopo. So while I find these discussions entertaining, enlightening, and educational, I don't believe that the opinions expressed inside represent the much larger climbing community accurately or precisely.


Ok, I can understand that though I can't really say if I agree with it or not. The internet community just might be representative of the population. I'm not pollster so I won't try to say definitively or not.

mtnfr34k wrote:
I think, most likely, is that I'm going to strike up a conversation with the climbers around me and ask them for their opinions on the question.

Sounds reasonable.

mtnfr34k wrote:
And Jay really is an ass. I don't really read any of his posts after the first one in a thread. But I can't bear the idea of killfiling him - or anyone else - because I'm afraid I'll miss something in the conversation.

Noted.


jt512


Sep 20, 2007, 10:46 AM
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moose_droppings wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I'm interested in getting the redpoint as quickly as possible, and moving on to the next project.

This is like children (self absorbed) that toss their old game once they've been all the way thru it once and go on to the next.

A new high watermark for rc.com: A pos(t)er suggests that striving for efficiency at redpointing is a sign of immaturity.

In reply to:
Congrats. You may have even driven a wider wedge between climbers themselves.

And divisiveness, too. Rad! So, let's recap: striving for redpoint efficiency, a value so obvious as to be self-evident, is, according to the posers on this website, lazy, disrespectful, immature, and divisive. Did I miss anything?

Jay


caughtinside


Sep 20, 2007, 10:46 AM
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lemon_boy wrote:
jay,

your assertion that 'the vast majority' of climbers climbing in the 12 range use ticks is absolute bullshit. maybe at new crap city, or your other little crag that is being 'secretly' developed. over the last 20 years i have climbed with probably 30 or more people who have, or are currently climbing at the 5.12 to 5.13 level. there is not one single occasion that i can recall where one of my partners has placed a tick, or declared that ticking a hold would be beneficial. vast majority? give me a fucking break.

I can say I'm pretty surprised by this. Not a single tick? 30 people climbing over .12 and not a single tick?

Surprising!


jt512


Sep 20, 2007, 10:55 AM
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lemon_boy wrote:
jay,

your assertion that 'the vast majority' of climbers climbing in the 12 range use ticks is absolute bullshit. maybe at new crap city, or your other little crag that is being 'secretly' developed. over the last 20 years i have climbed with probably 30 or more people who have, or are currently climbing at the 5.12 to 5.13 level. there is not one single occasion that i can recall where one of my partners has placed a tick, or declared that ticking a hold would be beneficial. vast majority? give me a fucking break.

Well, I've climbed with several hundred people at that level and they all use tick marks - every single one of them. And your argument that I've only climbed at two sport crags is laughable.

In reply to:
third, you say that having the holds ticked is beneficial to climbers doing the route. again, i think this is complete bullshit.

Yeah, who could imagine how having difficult-to-see holds highlighted with chalk could ever make the route easier.

Jay


Johnny_Fang


Sep 20, 2007, 11:20 AM
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Wait--I just saw a video of Sharma and maybe Jay is right. Maybe all the high end dudes DO like tickmarks, and especially like leaving them up for others. Especially important is the last minute of the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH9O4l5_L58


moose_droppings


Sep 20, 2007, 11:24 AM
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jt512 wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I'm interested in getting the redpoint as quickly as possible, and moving on to the next project.

This is like children (self absorbed) that toss their old game once they've been all the way thru it once and go on to the next.

A new high watermark for rc.com: A pos(t)er suggests that striving for efficiency at redpointing is a sign of immaturity.

In reply to:
Congrats. You may have even driven a wider wedge between climbers themselves.

And divisiveness, too. Rad! So, let's recap: striving for redpoint efficiency, a value so obvious as to be self-evident, is, according to the posers on this website, lazy, disrespectful, immature, and divisive. Did I miss anything?

Jay

Yeah, you forgot to insult my mother.

But it is my fault for thinking you might get a clue. Anything goes as long as you require something from it, then its just waste. You know, like the time it would take you to clean up after yourself.


zeke_sf


Sep 20, 2007, 11:36 AM
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This is just as silly as those bolting debates where people get really heated when what they are talking about are different ethics in different areas. Just like those debates, we're talking about something that affects either of these polar opposites, like, 0.05% of the time. I do agree, however, that the white chalk on desert sandstone (tick mark or not) is an issue that has more meat on its bones. Mr. I've Been to 2 Sport Areas, and Mr. I love to Tick Sport Climbs are obviously going to have two very different takes on the main argument. Regardless, the debate has been highly entertaining. So keep it up!


jt512


Sep 20, 2007, 11:40 AM
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moose_droppings wrote:
jt512 wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
jt512 wrote:
I'm interested in getting the redpoint as quickly as possible, and moving on to the next project.

This is like children (self absorbed) that toss their old game once they've been all the way thru it once and go on to the next.

A new high watermark for rc.com: A pos(t)er suggests that striving for efficiency at redpointing is a sign of immaturity.

In reply to:
Congrats. You may have even driven a wider wedge between climbers themselves.

And divisiveness, too. Rad! So, let's recap: striving for redpoint efficiency, a value so obvious as to be self-evident, is, according to the posers on this website, lazy, disrespectful, immature, and divisive. Did I miss anything?

Jay

Yeah, you forgot to insult my mother.

But it is my fault for thinking you might get a clue. Anything goes as long as you require something from it, then its just waste. You know, like the time it would take you to clean up after yourself.

If I cleaned up my tick marks, I'd be depriving the next climber of beta. I'd happily clean up my tick marks if asked to. In the real world, sport climbers like to have beta. I've yet to hear a sport climber complain that chalk makes holds too easy to find.

Jay


moose_droppings


Sep 20, 2007, 11:41 AM
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jt512 wrote:
In reply to:
Congrats. You may have even driven a wider wedge between climbers themselves.

Actualy I said it this way;
In reply to:
You may have even driven a wider wedge between climbers themselves.
Congrats.


And yes, your way of striving for redpoint efficiency is
jt512 wrote:
lazy, disrespectful, immature


microbarn


Sep 20, 2007, 11:48 AM
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Re: [Johnny_Fang] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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Johnny_Fang wrote:
Wait--I just saw a video of Sharma and maybe Jay is right. Maybe all the high end dudes DO like tickmarks, and especially like leaving them up for others. Especially important is the last minute of the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH9O4l5_L58

ZING

maybe jt will understand when he gets up to that level of climbing.


microbarn


Sep 20, 2007, 11:51 AM
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Re: [jt512] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
If I cleaned up my tick marks, I'd be depriving the next climber of beta. I'd happily clean up my tick marks if asked to. In the real world, sport climbers like to have beta. I've yet to hear a sport climber complain that chalk makes holds too easy to find.

Jay

Well perhaps you should stop kill filing them all. There were certainly a few that posted in this thread.


caughtinside


Sep 20, 2007, 11:53 AM
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Re: [microbarn] Sigh, back on the soapbox [In reply to]
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microbarn wrote:
Johnny_Fang wrote:
Wait--I just saw a video of Sharma and maybe Jay is right. Maybe all the high end dudes DO like tickmarks, and especially like leaving them up for others. Especially important is the last minute of the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH9O4l5_L58

ZING

I'm not sure what to make of that video. He says "I hate THIS tick mark" ?? and scrubs it off.

But he uses other holds throughout the climb that are clearly ticked?

maybe jt will understand when he gets up to that level of climbing.

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