than angry, angry's girl, and camhead.

damn, yer right, I'm not active in SoCal. What have I been doing with my life?

(camhead hangs his head, sells his rack on ebay, and realizes that his whole life has been a lie.)

Jay, do you think you should clean up your tics after a send?

In a sport area, not really. I think most sport climbers would rather have tick marks up than not. In terms of getting the redpoint quicker, they probably do more good than harm. Sport climbing is mainly a redpointing activity, and it should go without saying (though nothing does when arguing with gumbies) that getting a redpoint in fewer tries is desirable (no matter how good the movement is :roll:). Redpointing is not onsighting, and once you've decided to go for a redpoint, you usually want all the beta you can get, and tick marks are just a form of beta.

Jay

The biggest tick mark I ever saw was 4" long and located a hidden jug on a 5.6 trad climb. (coincidentally my first trad climb ever) Totally ridiculous.

The people that do use/like ticks all agree they should be removed.

In a sport area, not really. I think most sport climbers would rather have tick marks up than not.

... a 10c (possibly up to 11a depending on who you ask) that doesn't have a hidden or devious move anywhere on it. I'm relatively certain that these ticks were put there by a big name climber who soloed the route last week.

... relatively certain that these ticks were put there by a big name climber who soloed the route last week.

... reasonable assumption that high-end sport routes will only be climbed by high-end sport climbers, then leaving the tick marks in place is doing the next climber a favor

I don't understand why you think tick marks are understandable at only the highest levels of climbing. Tick marks are most helpful when you are climbing at your limit. That is, it's the relative difficulty of the climbing, and not the absolute difficulty, that is relevant.

... it's unclear why you think that this is absolute-difficulty based, rather than relative-difficulty based

... wouldn't have needed... (a tick mark*)... because he would have had the experience to easily spot the placement

Dude, come on, the hardest red point on your tick list is 5.10a!

You don't see gymnasts saying, I'm happy with an 8 on the parallel bars

Has your reading comprehension deteriorated, too?

Neither of you 5.10a climbers is in a position to understand why climbers tick holds.

When you are climbing at that level, you'd hardly ever find a tick mark useful. I don't think I ever ticked a hold on a 5.9 or 5.10 route, even when those levels were difficult for me. When you get on harder routes, things change, and tick marks are very helpful in helping to quickly identify your holds, especially obscure footholds or subtle "sweet spots." At the 5.9 and 5.10- levels quickly identifying small holds is usually not a factor for success. Using the holds effectively is, and tick marks won't help you with that. This is so simple and banal that a heated argument like this could only take place here on n00b.com.

True enough, but I wasn't thinking of climbing at 5.10 or below when I made that statement. Sure, people tick 5.9 handhold's for their girlfriends...

I don't need to tick footholds on 5.10 routes, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't help a fledgling 5.10 climber.

The fact is that the vast majority of sport climbers who climb at least 5.12 use tick marks on projects at their limit"

This is essentially a repetition of your earlier claim, which you have not supported with any objective evidence. Unless you can do so, I maintain that my posts are simply matter of fact statements about common sport climbing practices, and that your interpreting them as "arrogant" is simply a reflection of your own insecurity or ignorance.

Considering that I've led trad two number grades harder than you have...

I started out only killfiling the most egregious idiots, but I'm going through a phase where I'm not really interested in reading posts by people who have little if anything useful to contribute.

Another reasoning-impaired whiner desperately trying to rationalize stagnant performance.

Rationalization of a champion. A lazy champion.

DMT

"If I can send the route in two fewer burns because someone left tick marks there, then I'm all for it. There's nothing lazy about it."

How is that in any way, anything but, lazy?

It's lazy, because you don't bother to work the puzzle yourself.

The real test doesn't come with used, underlined texts.

I'm interested in getting the redpoint as quickly as possible, and moving on to the next project.

"Real" according to whose definition? No one gives a fuck about what guys whose brains have been infected by 30-year-old "climbing ethics" (which were never anything more than Royal Robbins' mental masturbations) think is "real."

Dude, you so called it. Shumin, you're my bitch!!! Now make me a sandwich

Tick marks help you send the route faster. If I can send the route in two fewer burns because someone left tick marks there, then I'm all for it.

I usually just mark the holds that aren't good so I am not suckered into using them.

Yeah, I'll make you a turd sandwich... With the way it was worded, camhead sounded like your redheaded step-child.

Now murf, what kind of faggot would carry a brush up an alpine route?