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marmalade


Oct 5, 2007, 9:56 AM
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Re: [hotgemini] All Cams are the same! [In reply to]
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hotgemini wrote:
billcoe_ wrote:
Well you take gearwhoring to a whole nother lever sir! What are your rope preferences and why?

Fortunately for my bank balance its not mine, I'm quartermaster for a small university rockclimbing club. We just figured that being independant from the usual commercial influences that we might as well run the experiment. I know what ropes have performed well so far, but it wouldn't be fair to cast judgement for perhaps another nine to twelve months once everything has got some kilometrage under its belt. I tried emailing climbing magazine to see if they wanted an article on the results but never got a reply.

So you've got a ton of different ropes, all being used by different people of novice skill, to toprope?

I do not think you will learn very much from your experiment.


billcoe_


Oct 5, 2007, 10:21 AM
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Re: [marmalade] All Cams are the same! [In reply to]
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marmalade wrote:

So you've got a ton of different ropes, all being used by different people of novice skill, to toprope?

I do not think you will learn very much from your experiment.

I disagree, but congrats on your 6th post ever!~


healyje


Oct 5, 2007, 10:29 AM
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All sport climbers are the same [In reply to]
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If all you're doing is clipping a few bolts and you can't discern the differences in handling, elongation in falling, or durability over time, then yeah, all ropes are the same. But, get out and groundup onsight new multipitch trad routes over sharp, loose rock and your perceptions of how ropes function will change dramatically.

Out on that sharp end the notions of twins vs. twin/doubles vs. doubles vs. singles performance, edge resistence, stiffness, and other handling nuances feel like they start acquiring some potentially life-or-death attributes. Bill Coe and I are working on a route now where I've already chopped my lead line once cleaning free on solo lead and have switched from singles to doubles mid-pitch when climbing with one partner on it and on doubles with Bill. What ropes we take on such endeavours matter in spades - both for how they perform and what options they provide us.


healyje


Oct 5, 2007, 10:33 AM
Post #129 of 149 (5372 views)
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Re: [hotgemini] All Cams are the same! [In reply to]
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hotgemini wrote:
billcoe_ wrote:
Well you take gearwhoring to a whole nother lever sir! What are your rope preferences and why?

Fortunately for my bank balance its not mine, I'm quartermaster for a small university rockclimbing club. We just figured that being independant from the usual commercial influences that we might as well run the experiment. I know what ropes have performed well so far, but it wouldn't be fair to cast judgement for perhaps another nine to twelve months once everything has got some kilometrage under its belt. I tried emailing climbing magazine to see if they wanted an article on the results but never got a reply.

Sounds like you probably manage and rotate your ropes quite well, as you should in such a setting - have any retired Mammut Supersafes you want to sell...? Bill knows I'm always on the lookout for a deal on a new lead line...


(This post was edited by healyje on Oct 5, 2007, 10:34 AM)


marmalade


Oct 5, 2007, 10:35 AM
Post #130 of 149 (5368 views)
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Re: [billcoe_] All Cams are the same! [In reply to]
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billcoe_ wrote:
marmalade wrote:

So you've got a ton of different ropes, all being used by different people of novice skill, to toprope?

I do not think you will learn very much from your experiment.

I disagree, but congrats on your 6th post ever!~

Thank you. It wasn't easy, getting post number six. Maybe someday I'll have no life and can get 100 or even 1000!


hiyapokey


Oct 5, 2007, 10:41 AM
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Re: [billcoe_] All Cams are the same! [In reply to]
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billcoe_ wrote:
marmalade wrote:

So you've got a ton of different ropes, all being used by different people of novice skill, to toprope?

I do not think you will learn very much from your experiment.

I disagree, but congrats on your 6th post ever!~

I think your right Bill. I haven't bought my first rope and knowing how 20 ropes stood up to Noobs doing Noob stuff would be really helpful when I do end up buying a rope.


NSFW


Oct 5, 2007, 10:49 AM
Post #132 of 149 (5359 views)
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Re: [marmalade] All Cams are the same! [In reply to]
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marmalade wrote:
billcoe_ wrote:
marmalade wrote:

So you've got a ton of different ropes, all being used by different people of novice skill, to toprope?

I do not think you will learn very much from your experiment.

I disagree, but congrats on your 6th post ever!~

Maybe someday I'll have no life and can get 100 or even 1000!

Sounds like you have the first part covered, now if you can just get your post count up!


justinboening


Oct 5, 2007, 11:50 AM
Post #133 of 149 (5340 views)
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Re: [caughtinside] All Cams are the same! [In reply to]
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caughtinside,

I sympathize with your healthy skepticism; your ignorance, however, and the ignorance of anyone who shares your opinion on differences in rope quality is palpable. Yes, if you're only going on personal experience, it's difficult to say how durable one rope is in relation to the next. After all, do any of you who claim to have an informed opinion keep a rope log and/or climb on the same routes every time you climb? No, we climb under varying conditions. I recognize that my personal experience, no matter what trends I think I've noticed, is moot when it comes to a objective conversation on rope qualities. The close to a decade old rope log at the gym I've been running for the past three years, however, holds some useful feedback. From those records, I can safely say that there is some serious differences in sheath durability between ropes with equal mass and weight per meter from different manufacturers. In fact, one rope, on average, lasts six times as long as another of equal mass and weight per length. I'll give you a hint: the rope doesn't cost six times as much. I'm not a scientist, but we've had this log for quite some time; in fact, our records pre-date your first day climbing. If you're just trolling, good for you. If you really wanted to know, well, I hope you have enough reason in you to soundly consider this non-biased information.


billcoe_


Oct 5, 2007, 12:42 PM
Post #134 of 149 (5322 views)
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Re: [hiyapokey] All Cams are the same! [In reply to]
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hiyapokey wrote:
I think your right Bill. I haven't bought my first rope and knowing how 20 ropes stood up to Noobs doing Noob stuff would be really helpful when I do end up buying a rope.

I agree. Best advice I haven't seen yet on this thread, get a rope bag.

I think for a first rope, asking around at the area you will be climbing primarily at to see what others use may be a good idea. Bigger diameter is good if you are toproping as that wears a rope significantly faster than leading since you are putting full bodyweight on a small radius with every lower, and might have a bunch of lowers including all your buddies hanging around every day you are out. Size matters. There is evidence starting to come out that skinny ropes don't last nearly as long as big ropes (shock!). Same evidence and situation which Joseph brought forward early on with skinny slings as well.

I have lots of ropes of all sorts. From the best doubles in the world, the ultralight Metolius 7.8s to an 11mil Beal, (and lots of stuff and brands inbetween. 9.1 Joker, 9.4 Bluewater dominator, 10.0 and 10.2 Mammuts, 10.5 beal still in the bag waiting for the others to die etc etc *cough* gearwhore*cough* All of them were bought as a good deal on sale or pro deal. All are UiAA rated.

Ya drag out the most appropriate for what you are doing. Say if you want to hang, clean and jug all day, the phat 11mil would be the choice, you want light, fast easy and long route rope, 9.4 bluewater or the doubles if you might need to rap because the marginal rain pattern is about to rear it's ugly head.

An old Tradmaster like Joseph above, he has different needs and desires. Like Caughtinside notes about how he always seems to retire them: he may go the entire rope life with no falls, but chop it with a loose rock as a finale for the ropes life. If and when he falls, it is a totally different characteristic's load on the rope than you will most likely apply.

Joseph use to lead climb, Fa's on gear no less, on a Mammut Supersafe he bought used on ebay of all things. I think he has pretty good confidence about the seller of the rope. I think I may have led on that line as well, probably a reflection of my trust on Joesph. I tend not to trust ropes, especially others ropes, having once seen one break under bodyweight with near tragic results once.

If it's your first rope, buying big is good, make sure you get a rope bag for it, and keep the area's the bag will be ultra clean: especially of battery acid/jumper cable thing. I pull out the mat in my CR-V every time I have any chemical back there, even an herbicide like roundup that doesn't appear to leak out of the container, and wash the mat and clean the area. I clean that space every spring as well. And I'm not by nature a clean person, but it's a critical thing. Have rope bags for all of them. Always.

Realize that in the old days, all lead ropes were 11mil. Period. Everyone led on them, hauled on them, jugged on them: everything. And it was good. They were tested and rated to hold 3 falls. Yet they rarely ever fail. Hardly ever, and it tends to be a chemical that weakens them when they do. There was a recent incident posted on this site where one failed in the rock gym. Testing showed sulfuric acid (battery acid is sulfuric) on the fibers. Dude didn't know how it got on there, but it could have killed someone had the fall occurred in the wrong place.

All ropes now are significantly better than all ropes from back when. Handling and strength. Strength for sure. The 11 mil I have is rated to 18 falls (UIAA fall factor 2 falls) http://books.google.com/...R_ASz7DbAnY#PPA66,M1, and even the little 9.1 holds 5!

So it's probably all good, especially for your first rope. Just get a rope bag.


NSFW


Oct 5, 2007, 12:43 PM
Post #135 of 149 (5316 views)
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Re: [billcoe_] All Cams are the same! [In reply to]
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well damn Filibuster, why don't you tell us what you really feel?


billcoe_


Oct 5, 2007, 12:45 PM
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Last point: Caughtinsides last line in the first post.

The belay matters more than the rope. Soooo true.


sterlingjim


Oct 5, 2007, 12:59 PM
Post #137 of 149 (5302 views)
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Re: [caughtinside] All ropes are the same! [In reply to]
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caughtinside wrote:
Heh.

It's true. I've been climbing for 6 years now, just enough to spout off about my ignorance.

And what I have discovered is that all ropes are THE SAME.

There are only a couple differences. bi-color, diameter and length. Oh yeah, and dry.

What I'm saying is that brand doesn't matter. # of falls doesn't matter. Impact force is a # made up by the travelocity roaming Gnome, denouncer of travel myths. I don't want to hear about elongation, because they all stretch. If they're skinny, they stretch more.

People have their favorite brands. Mammut seems to be the most common favorite brand. It also seems to be the most expensive. Big surprise! I've used mammuts. Nothing special!

I've currently got 4 ropes in active duty, and they're all the same. Sure, I have a favorite, but it's cause its pretty. and skinny. And light. And I climbed with it in Thailand, got some fond memories. But it isn't better than any of my other ropes.

People talk about the 'hand' of a rope. Personally, I couldn't care less. I've used stiff ropes. I've used noodle ropes. My favorites are somewhere in between these extremes, but really I don't care.

I've heard it claimed that some ropes twist easier than other ropes. This is more bullshit. You rigged an anchor wrong, deal with it. I've done it and jacked some ropes. It's fixable.

Anyway, that is my conclusion after years of emprical study and anecdotal research. I buy the cheapest ropes I can find. A good belay is the important thing.

Guess I better start looking for another job.


hotgemini


Oct 6, 2007, 5:01 AM
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Re: [marmalade] All Cams are the same! [In reply to]
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marmalade wrote:
So you've got a ton of different ropes, all being used by different people of novice skill, to toprope?

I do not think you will learn very much from your experiment.

Guh? Top-roping? Where'd I say that? These ropes are used almost exclusively for leading.

A more accurate description would be that we've got a tonne of different ropes which are rotated through a wide range of climbers of varying experience and ability who use them for just about every flavour of rockclimbing on a wide variety of rock-types.

From putting up new multipitch trad routes onsight on the sandstone seacliffs of point perpendicular to jamming up the beautiful rhyolite pillars of frog buttress to smearing granite slabs at boroomba rocks and girraween.

I've already learnt much from this experiment.


billcoe_


Oct 6, 2007, 8:26 AM
Post #139 of 149 (5252 views)
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Re: [hotgemini] All Cams are the same! [In reply to]
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hotgemini wrote:

I've already learnt much from this experiment.

Can you share your knowledge with us?

(Fillibuster averted...narrowly) Wink


healyje


Oct 6, 2007, 6:49 PM
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Re: [hotgemini] All Cams are the same! [In reply to]
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hotgemini wrote:
[Guh? Top-roping? Where'd I say that? These ropes are used almost exclusively for leading.

So, any club-retired Supersafes I can talk you out of...?


PatMcGinn


Oct 6, 2007, 6:59 PM
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Re: [caughtinside] All ropes are the same! [In reply to]
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I suggest you read this...

Rope Attributes

Flexibility:
If a rope is too stiff, knots are difficult to tie and may even untie themselves. If a rope is too loose, this can allow knots to tighten so much when loaded that they cannot be untied.

Water absorption:
Water absorption greatly increases the weight of the rope, reduces its strength, and reduces its ability to absorb impact forces. In cold weather, absorbed water freezes, making the rope stiff and unmanageable (ice crystals also reduce rope strength). Many nylon ropes are treated with a water-repellent coating to help prevent moisture absorption. “Dry” ropes will not saturate immediately when subjected to moisture; therefore, they will remain lighter and stronger than untreated ropes. However, “dry” treatments do not stop water absorption, and treatments wear off over time with rope use. Ropes with tightly woven sheaths absorb water slower than ropes with loosely woven sheaths.

Kinking:
Every rope kinks. Help prevent kinking by properly uncoiling the rope from the coil. Place your arms inside the main coil. Spin your arms, allowing the rope to un-wind. Do not pull the rope; let it unravel as your arms rotate. Further kinking problems are generally due to improper coiling techniques (i.e. loop coils), and rappel devices (i.e. fig. 8’s and Munter hitches).

Hand :
"Hand" describes how a rope feels and handles. Diameter, weave pattern, coatings/treatments, sheath tightness, sheath material, and production quality all help determine a rope's hand.


Single ropes:
Single ropes vary in diameter from 9.8 to 11 millimeters. Thick ropes last longer and usually hold more falls. Small diameter ropes are lighter and easier to clip into protection, making them the preferred choice for high-end lead climbing and glacier travel.

Double ropes (or half ropes):
are used only in pairs. These ropes range from 8.2 to 9 millimeters in diameter. Double ropes may be clipped alternately through the protection, reducing rope drag and decreasing the chances of rope failure over an edge.

Bi-colored ropes:
change colors or sheath patterns at the midpoint. This feature allows you to easily find the center of the rope.

All of these factors go into the making of the ropes.


(This post was edited by PatMcGinn on Oct 6, 2007, 7:00 PM)


hotgemini


Oct 6, 2007, 7:00 PM
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Re: [billcoe_] All Cams are the same! [In reply to]
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I'd love to, but;

a) its definitely still a work in progress, won't have anything reasonably definitive for perhaps 9 months.

b) I'd really like to see it as an article in climbing magazine.

There are some ropes 'missing' from the experiment at this stage. In particular I'd like to get edelweiss emotion, petzl zephyr and the new england (maxim) apex 10.5. I don't mind paying for them they're just not available commercially in australia.


Partner j_ung


Oct 9, 2007, 8:42 AM
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Re: [chossmonkey] All Cams are the same! [In reply to]
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chossmonkey wrote:
j_ung wrote:
artm wrote:
I've onsighted 5.10 trad in approach shoes.

Sorry, fellas, but unless you climb in approach shoes all the time, you're proving my point.
Do you climb in the same pair of shoes all the time?

Obviously approach shoes won't work well with thin cracks. But it is more a question of bulk than fit.

The same with routes with very techy footwork. Its not that they won't stick to those tiny edges. You just can't see where the hell they are under all that shoe.
[image]http://www.climbeasterncanada.com/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif[/image]

Did you just agree with me?

Art, I'm on board with the climber-not-shoe" argument insofar as performance is concerned. After all, folks were climbing far harder than I do now in shoes that are far less sticky. But performance is only one factor. What about fit? I can't get my EEE flippers into any Scarpa and maybe only one or two LaSportivas, but 5.10s and EVOLVs love me. That's a huge Difference (with a capitol D). I can fit into both 5.10 Newtons and Montrail Magnets, but seeing as how the Magnets are far more comfortable, I can dial in on the small stuff with far less pain and I'll pick them any day.

You get what I'm saying? Sure, it's the climber, not the shoe... except when it's the shoe.


Partner artm


Oct 9, 2007, 9:08 AM
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Re: [j_ung] All Cams are the same! [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
chossmonkey wrote:
j_ung wrote:
artm wrote:
I've onsighted 5.10 trad in approach shoes.

Sorry, fellas, but unless you climb in approach shoes all the time, you're proving my point.
Do you climb in the same pair of shoes all the time?

Obviously approach shoes won't work well with thin cracks. But it is more a question of bulk than fit.

The same with routes with very techy footwork. Its not that they won't stick to those tiny edges. You just can't see where the hell they are under all that shoe.
[image]http://www.climbeasterncanada.com/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif[/image]

Did you just agree with me?

Art, I'm on board with the climber-not-shoe" argument insofar as performance is concerned. After all, folks were climbing far harder than I do now in shoes that are far less sticky. But performance is only one factor. What about fit? I can't get my EEE flippers into any Scarpa and maybe only one or two LaSportivas, but 5.10s and EVOLVs love me. That's a huge Difference (with a capitol D). I can fit into both 5.10 Newtons and Montrail Magnets, but seeing as how the Magnets are far more comfortable, I can dial in on the small stuff with far less pain and I'll pick them any day.

You get what I'm saying? Sure, it's the climber, not the shoe... except when it's the shoe.
NO 1Z CLMBR NOT SHOOZ!!!!
Yes Jay, I think we agree on that point. A well fitting shoe is superior to an ill fitting shoe, and that includes approach shoes.
That however was really not my point.
Amongst the group of people I am currently climbing with there is a variety in the choice of footwear, slippers, velcro, lace-ups and all different makes and models.
I usually laugh when I see or hear n00bs asking which shoe will let them climb harder, because we both know NO shoe will increase their climbing performance in and of itself.


tradmanclimbs


Oct 9, 2007, 9:31 AM
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Re: [artm] All Cams are the same! [In reply to]
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JIM. you should definatly keep up the good work. just keep in mind though that while the advanced climber group will appreciate all the bells and whistles the largest market share is going to be more interested in the best price. Yes we want the features but we also want the best price. Sell a good dry rope with a middle mark that lasts at or near the lowest price out there and you will gain the largest market share JMOP


microbarn


Oct 9, 2007, 2:05 PM
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artm wrote:
j_ung wrote:
chossmonkey wrote:
j_ung wrote:
artm wrote:
I've onsighted 5.10 trad in approach shoes.

Sorry, fellas, but unless you climb in approach shoes all the time, you're proving my point.
Do you climb in the same pair of shoes all the time?

Obviously approach shoes won't work well with thin cracks. But it is more a question of bulk than fit.

The same with routes with very techy footwork. Its not that they won't stick to those tiny edges. You just can't see where the hell they are under all that shoe.
[image]http://www.climbeasterncanada.com/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif[/image]

Did you just agree with me?

Art, I'm on board with the climber-not-shoe" argument insofar as performance is concerned. After all, folks were climbing far harder than I do now in shoes that are far less sticky. But performance is only one factor. What about fit? I can't get my EEE flippers into any Scarpa and maybe only one or two LaSportivas, but 5.10s and EVOLVs love me. That's a huge Difference (with a capitol D). I can fit into both 5.10 Newtons and Montrail Magnets, but seeing as how the Magnets are far more comfortable, I can dial in on the small stuff with far less pain and I'll pick them any day.

You get what I'm saying? Sure, it's the climber, not the shoe... except when it's the shoe.
NO 1Z CLMBR NOT SHOOZ!!!!
Yes Jay, I think we agree on that point. A well fitting shoe is superior to an ill fitting shoe, and that includes approach shoes.
That however was really not my point.
Amongst the group of people I am currently climbing with there is a variety in the choice of footwear, slippers, velcro, lace-ups and all different makes and models.
I usually laugh when I see or hear n00bs asking which shoe will let them climb harder, because we both know NO shoe will increase their climbing performance in and of itself.
except for the Women's la sportiva mythos....they have fairy dust in them.


healyje


Oct 9, 2007, 2:17 PM
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Re: [hotgemini] All Cams are the same! [In reply to]
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Bill, I don't think he's going to sell me a rope. Bummer. Then again shipping would probably offset any savings. Oh, well, back to ebay...


billcoe_


Oct 9, 2007, 2:49 PM
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Re: [healyje] All Cams are the same! [In reply to]
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Too bad, you might have been able to fly to Aussieland and pick it up. Real nice there.



Bard Buttress above. Easy but fun route Arapiles.


(This post was edited by billcoe_ on Oct 9, 2007, 2:50 PM)


healyje


Oct 9, 2007, 6:16 PM
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I have been down that a way once, but at the Blue Mountains as opposed to Arapiles. Loved it. Being a sandstone climber, I still consider the Blue Mountains the best climbing on the planet and plan on making it back sometime in the next few years.

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