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Partner j_ung


Sep 27, 2007, 7:11 AM
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] All ropes are the same! [In reply to]
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
Jung, yes some of the pricy dry tratments are better but that is a non issue for a cragging rope. cragging implys single or half pitch. If it rains we rap and go home.
Cragging rope = cheapest rope available or model of prefrence not more than $20 above cheapest price available.
Ice/alpine = cheapest super dry in your targeted weight and diameter range.

There again: all ropes are the same, except when they're not. TongueTongue

Edit: Page turn! Yee-haw! Cool


(This post was edited by j_ung on Sep 27, 2007, 7:12 AM)


cchildre


Sep 27, 2007, 7:31 AM
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Re: [caughtinside] All ropes are the same! [In reply to]
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caughtinside wrote:
potreroed wrote:
I disagree--I've been climbing for 40 years and have owned just about every rope on the market and I think you are wrong. Different ropes handle differently, hold knots differently, wear out differently and kink up differently (you obviously never owned an Esprit Rope from Canada!!)

And, yes, Mammut is my favorite rope.

I believe all of that is superficial and immaterial.

LMAO, how sad.

Every had to yank a stiff 11 mm rope through an auto block? It sucks if yoy haven't...

Try it with a 9.1 Joker, and after 14 pitches, your arms will make it clear.

Try using those skinny ropes with a Gri Gri?
I witnessed a belayer struggle to achieve the necessary friction with just such a set up, who was rewarded with a broken neck, and his climber a broken heel.

Typically, you get what you pay for.


markc


Sep 27, 2007, 7:37 AM
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Re: [tradmanclimbs] All ropes are the same! [In reply to]
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
Jung, yes some of the pricy dry tratments are better but that is a non issue for a cragging rope. cragging implys single or half pitch. If it rains we rap and go home.
Cragging rope = cheapest rope available or model of prefrence not more than $20 above cheapest price available.
Ice/alpine = cheapest super dry in your targeted weight and diameter range.

Again, we're seeing limits put on an argument to give it more weight. The original statement did not refer to context. The thread didn't declare all ropes are the same at the gym, or the crag, etc. It was that all ropes are the same.

I've owned several ropes, and climbed on plenty more. There are differences that may be important to some people and a non-issue for others. There may be contexts that highlight those differences. Much like the OP, my primary concerns are price, diameter, and length. That said, it doesn't make me blind to the differences which I feel less strongly about.

Let's examine this another way. If all ropes of similar diameter and length were the identical price, would you arbitrarily grab any brand? Might you sort through and find the brand that has those subtle differences you prefer? If it's the second, you can't support the original argument.


Partner robdotcalm


Sep 27, 2007, 7:38 AM
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Re: [j_ung] All ropes are the same! [In reply to]
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ę I know the age old argument that all dry treatments wear out so quickly that they might as well all be the same. But nowadays there are differences in dry treatment types to make that argument outdated. Some companies still only apply a coating to the sheath, which is meant to seal the rope from water (this is the old style dry treatment). Others have stepped up to newer methods, like treating individual sheath yarns or treating individual core yarns -- which is vastly superior and doesn't wear out quickly at all. Some tests show that wet ropes can lose up to 70% of their dynamic resistance, and that ropes with treated core yarn resist that effect pretty well. Is that insignificant, too?Ľ

J-ung: do you have any references to these tests? Have they been done on ropes that have had at least a week of climbing on them? Have they been done independently or by the manufacturer trying to sell a dry-treatment? Whatís the loss in strength of a dry-treated rope after itís been exposed to water? Different than that of a comparable untreated rope?

Cheers,
Rob.calm


tradmanclimbs


Sep 27, 2007, 7:45 AM
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Re: [j_ung] All ropes are the same! [In reply to]
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Jay, i totaly agree that all ropes are different but my point is how much money is the difference worth to you provideing the fact that all ropes are safe enough for standard cragging aplications be it sport or trad.

A quick browse through the rope section @ gearexpress.com shows the options for 60m single ropes.

Beal 10.2 dry $177.50 OS* (*out of stock)
Blue water 10.5 Standard $174.00
Edelweis 10.3 dry $119.95
Maxim 10.5dry $154.95 *os
Sterling 9.8 & 10.1 standard $149.95

According to my criteria the beal and bluewater are eliminated outright due to high price. maxim is also eliminated due to larger diameter, heavier and high price. That leaves the Sterling and Edelweis. It would be a harder choice for me now as i have experience with the Edelweis and though the model is diferent I am leary that this one may also be a stiff heavy rope. I didn't look up the specs but if the sterling 10.1 was significantly lighter than the edelweis I would be mighty tempted to spend the extra $30.00 If the sterling was $20.00 cheaper it would be a no brainer!! Bottom line is that price is more important than performance but performance will win over if the price is reasonably in the ball park. Rope makers take note!! Its mostly about the price tag!! Put a good product out at the best price and you will gain the larger market share!!! There is no real brand loyalty beyond the best price to product ratio.


snoopy138


Sep 27, 2007, 7:52 AM
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Re: [caughtinside] All ropes are the same! [In reply to]
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caughtinside wrote:
NSFW wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
shimanilami wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
I see it like biners, nuts, cams, whatever. If it is different, it will feel different at first. But it takes very little time to adjust to the difference and proceed. Any percieved advantages of one over another don't come into play with ropes because they wear out so much faster than the above mentioned gear.

OK, now you've crossed the line. There are more than "perceived advantages" to certain 'biners, nuts and cams. Climbing on Aliens, for instance, will put hair on your chest, while trying to locate HB Offsets will cause you to pull your hair out. (I, for one, am one patchy-haired mofo.)

What's that? You climb Cali granite and don't have the H Beez? Man, that is sad!

[IMG]http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s308/caughtinside_bucket/roflbot-3.jpg[/IMG]

Iím still upset Iím not in that bomb. With all the effort Iíve put in helping to plot your demise I would have thought Iíd earned a place on the list.

Sorry. It seemed mostly like a zeke-art conspiracy, which snoop then joined. You didn't start threatening to kill me until more recently.

H Beez? ...no.

HEL 1Z LNGR 4 U, CI.


Partner j_ung


Sep 27, 2007, 8:08 AM
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Re: [robdotcalm] All ropes are the same! [In reply to]
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robdotcalm wrote:
ę I know the age old argument that all dry treatments wear out so quickly that they might as well all be the same. But nowadays there are differences in dry treatment types to make that argument outdated. Some companies still only apply a coating to the sheath, which is meant to seal the rope from water (this is the old style dry treatment). Others have stepped up to newer methods, like treating individual sheath yarns or treating individual core yarns -- which is vastly superior and doesn't wear out quickly at all. Some tests show that wet ropes can lose up to 70% of their dynamic resistance, and that ropes with treated core yarn resist that effect pretty well. Is that insignificant, too?Ľ

J-ung: do you have any references to these tests? Have they been done on ropes that have had at least a week of climbing on them? Have they been done independently or by the manufacturer trying to sell a dry-treatment? Whatís the loss in strength of a dry-treated rope after itís been exposed to water? Different than that of a comparable untreated rope?

Cheers,
Rob.calm

Here you go, Rob. The study I alluded to was translated from the original done by the Italian Alpine Club.

http://www.singingrock.cz/...35&nLanguageID=2

In reply to:
The presence of water or ice in climbing ropes produces important modifications in their performance, such as:
1. The dynamic resistance of the ropes (i.e. the number of falls held on the Dodero) decreases enormously - down to 30 % of the initial value - when they are soaked with water, be they new or used, normal or waterproofed.

2. After soaking in water a rope becomes 4-5% longer, which can be correlated to the 5-10% increase of the impact force at the first fall on the Dodero machine.

3. The negative effects of water on the dynamic performance of ropes are remarkable even in case of a brief soaking time, even after being splashed under a shower.

4. This behaviour seems to be due to the interaction of water with the crystal structure of the nylon macromolecule (according to literature).

5. Such behaviour lasts as long as the rope is wet, but after drying - in a cool, airy and shady place, as recommended - the rope recovers almost completely its original dynamic performance, even after various soaking/drying cycles.

6. Depending on the drying grade (normal or thorough) the rope can become shorter by 4% to 8%, which seems to be correlated to the decrease by 6-12% of the impact force at the first fall on the Dodero machine.

7. Even in the case of soaked and frozen ropes the dynamic resistance decreases, but less than in wet ropes.

8. Relationship between residual strength and rope diameter: see Appendix 1

In conclusion, a used rope in good conditions, say a rope which can still hold 4-5 falls in the UIAA test on the Dodero machine when dry, might only hold 1 or 2 falls when soaked after a sudden rain fall, as often occurs in the mountains. This may not be too much of a serious problem when climbing in a Kletter-garten, where falls are usually less dangerous and it takes little time to pull the rope down and go home. But mountaineers must demand the maximum security from their rope, even when wet, since it might snap on a rough edge during a fall. This risk is lower when the rope is in good condition. The problem can be less critical when climbing a glacier or an ice-fall, because the ropes are frozen, but even in this case the temperature is very important: if it is goes over 0_C, the rope returns to being wet!

In conclusion, it would be a good idea to change our ropes more often!

Edit: Sorry, I didn't answer all your questions. As for studies showing that dry-treated ropes don't lose that much dynamic resistance, the conclusions above don't address it, but the tables in the study show differences between dry and standard ropes. The dry rope they used is called "ever dry" in the study. However, I have no idea what type of dry treatment that is. Is it a plain old coating? Is it a dry core? I don't know for sure.

I can cite manufacturers who claim dry cores significantly reduce the wet-rope effect, most notably Sterling. Unbiased? No, but I don't believe they would make such a claim if weren't true.


(This post was edited by j_ung on Sep 27, 2007, 8:15 AM)


caughtinside


Sep 27, 2007, 8:09 AM
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Re: [cchildre] All ropes are the same! [In reply to]
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cchildre wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
potreroed wrote:
I disagree--I've been climbing for 40 years and have owned just about every rope on the market and I think you are wrong. Different ropes handle differently, hold knots differently, wear out differently and kink up differently (you obviously never owned an Esprit Rope from Canada!!)

And, yes, Mammut is my favorite rope.

I believe all of that is superficial and immaterial.

LMAO, how sad.

Every had to yank a stiff 11 mm rope through an auto block? It sucks if yoy haven't...

Try it with a 9.1 Joker, and after 14 pitches, your arms will make it clear.

Try using those skinny ropes with a Gri Gri?
I witnessed a belayer struggle to achieve the necessary friction with just such a set up, who was rewarded with a broken neck, and his climber a broken heel.

Typically, you get what you pay for.

Dude yer a moron! You just described a couple unfortunate incidents that are clearly n00b error in choosing the wrong tool (in terms of diameter or belay device) for the job! Who is retarded enough to drag an 11mil rope up a long route? Who is the jackass who can't belay with a skinny rope and puts their partner in danger? Both situations you describe can't be blamed on the rope.


caughtinside


Sep 27, 2007, 8:11 AM
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Re: [docburner] All ropes are the same! [In reply to]
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docburner wrote:
My rope gets me women, your rope gets you Zack. To me the difference is huge, to you probably not so much.

Your rope gets you chicks???

Finally someone I think I might be able to learn something from.

Yeah, I'm stuck with old zeke in the meantime.


Partner j_ung


Sep 27, 2007, 8:19 AM
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Re: [caughtinside] All ropes are the same! [In reply to]
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caughtinside wrote:
docburner wrote:
My rope gets me women, your rope gets you Zack. To me the difference is huge, to you probably not so much.

Your rope gets you chicks???

Finally someone I think I might be able to learn something from.

Yeah, I'm stuck with old zeke in the meantime.

No, not "Zeke." ZACK.




crackers


Sep 27, 2007, 8:21 AM
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Re: [j_ung] All Cams are the same! [In reply to]
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Troll of the Year Award!

I think though that a post "all cams are the same!" would get even more vitriol going...

congrats, caughtinside, you've done masterful work here! Wink


caughtinside


Sep 27, 2007, 8:24 AM
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Re: [j_ung] All ropes are the same! [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
slablizard wrote:
Absolutely....I keep buying dri ropes while I NEVER climbed in the rain...go figure, my point was that at the same amount of use the mammut and the Sterling had completely different outcomes. I can still climb with the older Sterling, while the mammut (overall in better shape, but too stiff) is in the garage...

just my 2c


tradmanclimbs wrote:
Of course they all behave differently but the bottom line is they all catch you in a fall so while you may prefer one rope how much extra money is that prefrence worth to you? Would you compromise a bit of handleing for better price knowing that both ropes are totally safe? For me the cut off point is about $20.00 and then ONLY if the better rope is AMAZEING. So if i can get a 10.0 to 10.3 rope on sale for under $120.00 that is the rope that i will buy. If the only rope in that price range is the Edelweis 10.3 then i may be talked into spewnding and extra 10 or maby even $20.00 to get ANY other rope as i am familiar with how stiff that sucker is. Bottom line though is that I will NOT spend $150 or higher on a single rope if I can help it.

You mean you have discovered that the fattest rope you own is also the most difficult to feed through a grigri?? A scientific breakthrough!!

Dave, I love you (in the I've-never-actually-met-you-except-online, non-romantic way). But you keep ignoring peoples' points here. Slabby just gave you an example of how two ropes' characteristics led to conditions that are different enough that he refuses to use one of them and always picks the other. That seems significant to me.

Here's another difference: dry treatments. Yeah, yeah, I know the age old argument that all dry treatments wear out so quickly that they might as well all be the same. But nowadays there are differences in dry treatment types to make that argument outdated. Some companies still only apply a coating to the sheath, which is meant to seal the rope from water (this is the old style dry treatment). Others have stepped up to newer methods, like treating individual sheath yarns or treating individual core yarns -- which is vastly superior and doesn't wear out quickly at all. Some tests show that wet ropes can lose up to 70% of their dynamic resistance, and that ropes with treated core yarn resist that effect pretty well. Is that insignificant, too?

Even the people who agree with you (including you!) are citing exceptions left and right, all while holding fast to the "all ropes are the same" claim. Okay, so I guess I'll join you... all ropes are the same, except when they're not.

Several edits for clarity and additions. Blush

Hello Jay,

Thanks for the well reasoned response, I even liked the bit where you fluffed my ... uh, ego.

Anyway, I knew the wording of my post would get people riled up, that was half the point. All my previous attempts to get any meaningful rope info failed.

Yeah, I did tease slabby about that mammut. But again, my point. What does his story tell us? That he got one bad mammut? That he got a mammut HE didn't like? Just up thread, potreroed says he's been climbing 40 years, and his FAVORITE ropes are mammut! (and I will go a little further and say that he likely belays with a grigri in the potrero)

So, how am I or anyone else for that matter, supposed to make an INFORMED decision when buying a rope? You don't get to test them out. They all feel more or less the same to me when their in the factory coil. So, like most people, I choose based on price, diameter and weight. Why would I pay $50 more for a rope that is comparable on those characteristics?

Durability is a crap shoot as far as I'm concerned. You can tell a little bit by how tight the sheath weave is, but that's it. Besides, you never really know. My friend had a brand new mammut, first day out a plate sized rock fell right into the rope bag. Nearly gave us the chop, the rope wasn't so lucky. Cut in half!

I can't really speak to dry treatments. I have dry ropes but don't climb when it's wet. Cali, baby!

I'm not saying its dumb to have a favorite rope. I've got 3 ropes I'm actively using right now and sure I have one I like best. But if it were $50 more I wouldn't buy it.

Finally, I'd point to that little study you just posted--right there at the end where it says we should replace our ropes more often. I agree! Ropes are disposable! Why spend $200 on a rope and use it for two years if I can buy two $100 ropes and use them for a year each? That is my strong preference.


caughtinside


Sep 27, 2007, 8:26 AM
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Re: [crackers] All Cams are the same! [In reply to]
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crackers wrote:
Troll of the Year Award!

I think though that a post "all cams are the same!" would get even more vitriol going...

congrats, caughtinside, you've done masterful work here! Wink

heh heh, thanks dude. But, like all good trolls, it's got a large kernel of truth in it.

BTW, got my 30L v1, LOVE IT! That pack is bad ass! I would never say all packs are the same.

Now climbing shoes on the other hand, all the same. THey're all just leather and rubber, right?


Partner drector


Sep 27, 2007, 8:27 AM
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Re: [caughtinside] All ropes are the same! [In reply to]
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caughtinside wrote:
My favorites are somewhere in between these extremes, but really I don't care.

I just want to point out that having a favorite and not caring is a contradiction. Having a favorite means that you do care. But that's a digression.

I've owned a few ropes and I'd have to say that my Bluewater 11mm, which is a total wet needle, and my Sterling 10.2 dry hatever, which is like a piece of dowel, are drastically different. But of course they are not so drastically different that I would choose or buy one over the other. I guess in the end you're absolutely right that they are really all the same!

Dave


caughtinside


Sep 27, 2007, 8:37 AM
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Re: [drector] All ropes are the same! [In reply to]
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drector wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
My favorites are somewhere in between these extremes, but really I don't care.

I just want to point out that having a favorite and not caring is a contradiction. Having a favorite means that you do care. But that's a digression.

Sorry, by favorite here I meant that I have a slight preference. Which you are correct, is different from 'not caring.' WHat I meant was that my preferences are not nearly strong enough to override my much stronger preference to get the less expensive rope.


Partner j_ung


Sep 27, 2007, 8:40 AM
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Re: [caughtinside] All ropes are the same! [In reply to]
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caughtinside wrote:
So, how am I or anyone else for that matter, supposed to make an INFORMED decision when buying a rope? You don't get to test them out. They all feel more or less the same to me when their in the factory coil. So, like most people, I choose based on price, diameter and weight. Why would I pay $50 more for a rope that is comparable on those characteristics?

If I were to buy a rope today, I know exactly what rope I would buy. I'd buy it because other ropes I've used under that brand had qualities I enjoyed and because it has a reputation for durability. Price isn't as huge a factor for me as it might be for others, but if it were, yeah, I could see making a decision based on $$ also. If so, then no, I probably wouldn't buy this particular model.

Is this one of those discussions in which we actually agree, even though we don't realize it?


tradmanclimbs


Sep 27, 2007, 8:47 AM
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get the less expensive rope. BINGO!


tradmanclimbs


Sep 27, 2007, 8:56 AM
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I bet price is a factor for a large part of the user group. everyone knows that mad rock shoes don't have quite the durrability of some of the other name brands but you see a ton of them out there because they are $50.00 cheaper than the competition. ropes are the same deal. i see tons of those cheap edelweis ropes at the crag> I also see a ton of the blue Beal that was on sale last year for $114.95 Price is a factor for most climbers. Any rope company that does not offer a decent 60m rope in the $120.00 range is missing out on a huge portion of the market share INMOP


cchildre


Sep 27, 2007, 8:57 AM
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Re: [caughtinside] All ropes are the same! [In reply to]
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caughtinside wrote:
Dude yer a moron! You just described a couple unfortunate incidents that are clearly n00b error in choosing the wrong tool (in terms of diameter or belay device) for the job! Who is retarded enough to drag an 11mil rope up a long route? Who is the jackass who can't belay with a skinny rope and puts their partner in danger? Both situations you describe can't be blamed on the rope.

Refresh my memory, FOOL! Didn't you start this with the asserrtion that all ropes are the same?

Sitiuations cited, were done so, as to point out how ropes are not all the same. While not the fault of the rope, a different rope could have lessened if not avoided the situations.


I don't know why I even bothered to write this reply. It is probalby outside of your range of understanding. Besides, mom told me that you just can't argue with STUPID!


tradmanclimbs


Sep 27, 2007, 9:02 AM
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texas, your missing the point.. Putting asside matching the right belay divise to the proper rope diameter. What is more important to you given the same rope diamater and length. Brand name or price?


Partner artm


Sep 27, 2007, 9:04 AM
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Re: [caughtinside] All Cams are the same! [In reply to]
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caughtinside wrote:
crackers wrote:
Troll of the Year Award!

I think though that a post "all cams are the same!" would get even more vitriol going...

congrats, caughtinside, you've done masterful work here! Wink

heh heh, thanks dude. But, like all good trolls, it's got a large kernel of truth in it.

BTW, got my 30L v1, LOVE IT! That pack is bad ass! I would never say all packs are the same.

Now climbing shoes on the other hand, all the same. THey're all just leather and rubber, right?
I agree, climbing shoes are all the same.

It's the Climber not the shoe.


Partner j_ung


Sep 27, 2007, 9:21 AM
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artm wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
crackers wrote:
Troll of the Year Award!

I think though that a post "all cams are the same!" would get even more vitriol going...

congrats, caughtinside, you've done masterful work here! Wink

heh heh, thanks dude. But, like all good trolls, it's got a large kernel of truth in it.

BTW, got my 30L v1, LOVE IT! That pack is bad ass! I would never say all packs are the same.

Now climbing shoes on the other hand, all the same. THey're all just leather and rubber, right?
I agree, climbing shoes are all the same.

It's the Climber not the shoe.

Sure... if you completely discount the importance of fit and terrain-appropriate lasts.


k.l.k


Sep 27, 2007, 9:36 AM
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Re: [j_ung] All ropes are the same! [In reply to]
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j-- thanks for posting the link to the cai study. ironically, it partly helps to reinforce at least part of ci's initial claims: the study's conclusions suggest that wet ropes are dramatically weaker than dry ones; that the finding holds as well for dry-treated ropes; and that older ropes absorb water much more readily. so more frequent rope retirement is probably the safest approach. which means that if you are on a limited budget, you're better off buying cheap (and probably non-treated) ropes and retiring them often, than buying an expensive rope and then extending its life.

has anyone read the original? it's an italian study translated into english and posted on a website based in czechoslovakia.


Partner j_ung


Sep 27, 2007, 9:38 AM
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Re: [k.l.k] All ropes are the same! [In reply to]
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It does on the surface. I wish I knew exactly what "ever dry" meant.


vegastradguy


Sep 27, 2007, 9:38 AM
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Re: [j_ung] All Cams are the same! [In reply to]
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this is why jay is my rope reviewer....a job he wont lose anytime soon!

my thought here is that, much like any piece of climbing gear, ropes come down to personal preference. if you have a steady income that allows for new toys, you can be a bit more picky about what you want.

imho, though, some ropes are definitely better than others. i've owned several brands, several models of those brands, and i definitely have a favorite- so much so that future rope purchases will be dictated by that favorite.

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