...it still seems ludicrous that what was once considered and impossibly difficult climb is now the basis for the bottom of the rating scale. Imagine if 5.10 was the bottom of the scale for top roping!

This smells like a troll, but anyway....

Didn't the guy who invented the V-Scale want it to be ridiculously hard? Didn't he want V0 to be closer to the current V6?

Language is arbitrary. Talk to your gymsetters about easier problems, who cares about the grades.

dev

The gym shouldn't cater to gumbies unless they want their gym to be an amusement park instead of a venue for climbing.

If you let a little difficulty get in your way you'll never succeed at anything significant. I suspect that the reason most people don't come back is because they just didn't enjoy it enough. You can always climb with additional holds on your problem until you get there. How do you think all the kids who boulder started out? They certainly didn't jump on the rock climbing V5 and most of them didn't climb 5.10 either. The gym shouldn't cater to gumbies unless they want their gym to be an amusement park instead of a venue for climbing.

umm...climbing is hard best to learn that from the start.

hat's also why you get gyms that invent gym specific bouldering ratings - I've seen P-systems, C-systems, Q-systems. However, the proliferation of new scales gets ridiculous and further dilutes any semblance of coherence. If we adopted your ideas, which aren't bad, then you'd have noobs arguing whether a problem was a v.5 or a v.6. Soon they'd be adding decimal points to every grade.

I'm not trying to be Darwinian here, but difficulty and challenge motivate people and if someone's psyche is so fragile that any failure is paralyzing then they problem shouldn't climb. Do we really want a culture of climbers that are more coddled and protected from failure than we currently are? Do we want a breed a gym climber so protected from psychological insecurity that we re-invent a system? Seems a bit too overprotective.

I am affectionately known in my circles as The Queen of V0.

And in all my reign I have "met" plenty of V0s that were in fact easier than 5.10. Sometimes route setters or guidebook authors call them VB or V0- but sometimes they just don't bother and go with V0. Some V0s are 5.10, and some are ladders. This is where the joy of discovery comes in.

The fact that gyms are coming up with their own systems refers to ego, either on the part of the gym crew or their clientele, and/or business strategy. Set a Z23 and watch the strongboys flail, then say "hey, he couldn't climb MY Z23." Or set a Q1- or whatever, and it's really a 5.6 that all the college boys in their Umbro shorts can do; this makes them buy "semester passes" and they become customers and shoot for the Z23. It's business and ego, not a diss on the Vermin scale- which IS the standard.

And so what if 40% of people can't do a "true" V0? Do we need climbing to be accessible to 100% of the population? Don't those Q1-s make it good enough?

I really think that this is a silly isue to waste your time on. The grading system is probably one of the most debated, least important aspects of climbing. most of my time in the gym I don't even climb the marked routes, and there is always something you can get of the ground on even if it doesn't have tape. Maybea the issue is that you are telling your new climbers "thats of route" and "you can't use that hold" instead of just letting them climb. Besides, I don't think that there needs to be anymore climbers anyways

By your logic we should get rid of all 5.4-5.9 routes and call them 5.10 because of the "joy of discovery". Its a double standard.

To OP, I was unaware that V0 was hard. It is definitely not 5.10 anymore... I've taken lots of people out climbing both inside and out, and I have always been able to find problems for them to do....

No, that's not my logic. It's yours.

Far from a troll just someone who has introduced tons of people to climbing. The ones who dont come back are the ones who who could not get off the ground.

Most gyms around here (So Cal) use VB for problems easier than V0. They usually end up ranging from about 5.8 to 5.9+, with V0- handling easy to mid 5.10.

Not real sure what the “B” in VB stands for, but I’ve heard “Basic”, “Beginner”, and even “Boring” as in “Very Boring.”

I am affectionately known in my circles as The Queen of V0.

And in all my reign I have "met" plenty of V0s that were in fact easier than 5.10. Sometimes route setters or guidebook authors call them VB or V0- but sometimes they just don't bother and go with V0. Some V0s are 5.10, and some are ladders. This is where the joy of discovery comes in.

V-Babe; ie, a girlfriend route.

Jay

Most gyms around here (So Cal) use VB for problems easier than V0. They usually end up ranging from about 5.8 to 5.9+, with V0- handling easy to mid 5.10.

Not real sure what the “B” in VB stands for, but I’ve heard “Basic”, “Beginner”, and even “Boring” as in “Very Boring.”

Maybe this is best illustrated by example. I am going climbing with my girlfriend and three of her friends on Monday. Two of them have never climbed before and the other one has has come with us once before.

The last time we climbed it was up at Valhalla six weeks ago. Same day I tore my tendon grrr. She decided to boulder as it was cheaper and they did not have to learn how to belay. We looked for the easiest V0 in the gym and they took us over to a slab portion on the left side as soon as you come in. However the route was fairly technical and a little reachy and she was not able to get to the top (nor was another friend we brought with us). We told her to nor worry about the route and use any holds however the V0 holds tend to be the best holds anyways. Someone who is having problems getting to the top of a V0 is not gonna find any help by reaching for a V5 hold, heck most V2 holds are going to be no help. At home I stack holds as tightly as possible which is great for teaching new climbers using the rainbow route method. However for those of you who set routes professionally or at your local gym probably know that most gyms space out their routes so that they are evenly distributed across the gym.

But Hey "climbing is hard" someone mentioned earlier. Maybe climbing is not the sport for her. But wait I have the shiny 5.5 route you can try. Both of them made it to the top and one of them flashed the route. She then tried a 5.6 and flashed it as well. Finally she tried a 5.7 and made it most of the way up using open feet.

Please tell me why she is allowed to top rope but not boulder?

Climbing is a sport with a lot of tradition however the elitist attitude that bouldering has to be hard is false. And is SLOWLY changing given the fact that many gyms use alternate climbing scales. There is not reason for every gym not to have X6 routes that are = to 5.6 top rope routes.

Rachael is going to go again. We told her that the gym we are going to (The Rock Club in New Rochelle) has a few bouldering problems that she should be able to do. Last time I was there there were a number of V0- problems that were designed for new climbers.

To all the people that has posted in this thread. Please tell me why it is ok for new climbers to top rope but not boulder. Why are there not bouldering problems specifically designed and graded for new boulders? Its a double standard.

To all the people that has posted in this thread. Please tell me why it is ok for new climbers to top rope but not boulder. Why are there not bouldering problems specifically designed and graded for new boulders? Its a double standard.

This is a perennial problem I have faced in every single gym I have ever climbed in.

New climbers are attracted to bouldering because [there is] less of a learning curve...unless they are extremely athletic they.... are immediately shut down.

This is especially true of new female climbers as they often do not have the upper body strength to power through these moves.

the V scale should be extended below the current V0 grade. The question is how to best go about doing this.

Implementing these changes to the existing grading system would translate into more people climbing!

However there is a large percentage of the population that climbs below 5.10 and therefore does not boulder by definition.

Currently V0's vary in difficulty so widely that they are not a reliable measure of difficulty. This is true even within a given gym I have to climb every single V0 to make sure my friends will not get shut down on it.

For some reason bouldering is not considered climbing. It is extremely elitist.

But Hey "climbing is hard" someone mentioned earlier. Maybe climbing is not the sport for her. But wait I have the shiny 5.5 route you can try. Both of them made it to the top and one of them flashed the route. She then tried a 5.6 and flashed it as well. Finally she tried a 5.7 and made it most of the way up using open feet.

Please tell me why she is allowed to top rope but not boulder?

To all the people that has posted in this thread. Please tell me why it is ok for new climbers to top rope but not boulder. Why are there not bouldering problems specifically designed and graded for new boulders? Its a double standard.

Please tell me why she is allowed to top rope but not boulder?

Why are there not bouldering problems specifically designed and graded for new boulders? Its a double standard.

This is a classic example of the stigma associated with climbing V0- or VB. Imagine if all the 5.5-5.9 routes in the gym were rated 5.B and were considered "babe" routes. Compound this with the fact that there are only allowed to be a token amount of the "newbie" routes. Its just not even imaginable since a large portion of the climbing population climb these grades. If any gym decided to implement this climbers would be up in arms. Here I am suggesting the reverse open up the 5.5-5.9 ie the X5-X9 routes in the bouldering section with a good amount of each grade and watch the influx of new climbers as life long top ropers give bouldering a serious go. In addition people like my friend Rachael, and Nicole, Hanna, Guy, Alejandro, Shannon, Erin, Danielle (to name a few) will be more likely to come back and have fun. And that is the bottom line. Its all about HAVING FUN.

Adding a scale below V0 that corresponds to 5.5-5.9 is good for the sport. There is no denying it. The more people that climb the better!

Just use the established ratings already in place.

If it's 5.5 - rate it 5.5.

5.7 = 5.7 and so on.

Once you get up to mid to hard 5.10 the traditional V-scale (V0 and above) can take over.

if its too hard then use some of the other holds with different colored tape on it, until you can make the move that is spitting you off.

cmon now... don't tell me you are getting shut down by a little piece of tape...

The bouldering police get you for that. You also cannot, under any circumstances, do a single move on a route graded 5.X without being tied into a rope - not even if you just do the moves up to the bouldering height limit. It just isn't done.

Bouldering is meant to be hard nasty agro stuff workers at any gym should tell new people what different parts of the gym are all about "stick to the green tape" and its all good

Everyone needs to read John Shermans book. And then realize that gyms are completely different than climbing outside.

Everyone has a different opinion as to how the "community" should be. Every gym is full of different attitudes toward what is acceptable inflation or deflation of consistent grades for the area that the gym is located. I have spent many hours in many gyms around the country and they all offer something different.

I know that for myself V0 can be a very wide range of difficulties. You can't compare sport climbing grades with bouldering grades. They really don't relate. I've been on 5.8's that I guarantee you had no move harder than a V0 on it but gave me a run for my money based on its explotation of my climbing weakness (crack climbing).

Most gyms are dead vertical or overhung thus increasing the difficulty for any new climber. What shurafa is asking cant happen. Most bouldering areas CAN'T make the climbs any easier. If you can't climb a gently overhanging ladder you shouldn't be in the climbing gym bouldering in the first place. Most gyms I've been in have bouldering problems in the V0 and VB range that are horribly easier than climbing a ladder.

Climbing isn't good for people who don't have some type of athletic ability. You can't expect (or ask) the climbing community to ever be consistent. Its never going to happen. Climbing is very very elitist and it always will be. Especially in gyms. I think gyms are far less consistent that grades outdoors.

As the poster above intimates, for some gyms, based on the structures they built, it may not be possible.

? Huh? I'm only an elitist when picking out the correct word s for my posts. Got panties on the brain crack? That's cool.

Though I still am not sure whether you were for or against the OP and whether or not you agree or not with rx_7. I still think this is a waste and it amuses me that this thing has gotten 60+ responses.

This thread is funny and strangely reminiscent of "Question 52":

"Deinde quaeritur de loco Angeli. Et circa hoc quaeruntur tria. Primo, utrum Angelus sit in loco. Secundo, utrum possit esse in pluribus locis simul. Tertio, utrum plures Angeli possint esse in eodem loco."

I get to be the first to agree with the OP on this. I started out bouldering because I'm too shy to find a belay partner. After two years of climbing I find V0- is tough and have only done a couple clean. It sucks to go up to a VB and not be able to get started. I have always had to work hard to get little in athletics. So I guess by everyone's answers I should just sit on the couch and get fat like I was doing two years ago. Some folks probably will flame me for agreeing with the OP, but who cares. I have learned to really enjoy bouldering and am glad that some gyms had the sense enough to set some easier routes. I see a direct corrolation of how much business a gym does to the diversity of their routes.

My gym sets V0s very close to how they set their 5.10s on top ropes. They use the 5.7-5.9 nominclature to show the easier routes. They just switched to this and I think its great. I like the idea of X5-X9 better because it makes the statement that this is a bouldering route and will probably take some kind of specialist skill to complete the problem be it power, balance, toe jams, drop knees etc. For all of you that can't handle change. You should read "Who Moved My Cheese".

For those who say just climb rainbow. I know from experience that climbing rainbow doesn't work most of the time. Its fun to complete a climb as marked from a real sit start. I'm glad the gym I started at had auto belays and bouldering comp routes less than 50 or I wouldn't have come back. To those of you that say you don't want me because I'm not a good climber, there are other things about me that make me valuable to the community.

When a community integrates diversity it succeeds. The gym is where begginers go to learn this great sport. There's nothing wrong with having good feelings about an accomplishment while at the same time keeping it real. V0 should look like the crux on a modern 5.10 route. Make some routes harder and rate them V1-14. Make some routes easier and rate them X1-9.

There's my rant I feel better now.

What I'm saying is there should be a place for everyone in the sport. I realize that the elite group usually lead the way in a sport. The problem is that it is discouraging to flail away on 10 V0s before you come to one that you have a chance on. Any nOOb could climb an X3 or at least make a valid attempt at it even if he/she was climbing out of a wheel chair. I want to be able to aspire to climbing V10 so V10s should be available too. The problem with the grading system is that they forgot about the unskilled when they made it. If they had X3-9 then V0 would not need to have such a range and thereby as in your soccer analogy the goal post won't be widened as it is now. That's what the OP is saying and this is how it "affects the rest of us". Your V7 gets easier because V0 has to be 5.5 like as well as 5.10 like. So someone says man the V1 is waaay harder than the V0 it must be a V3. Eventually the whole system gets diluted except at the highest grades. As well as scaring away potential climbing advocates.

The problem with the grading system is that they forgot about the unskilled when they made it.

What I'm saying is there should be a place for everyone in the sport. I realize that the elite group usually lead the way in a sport. The problem is that it is discouraging to flail away on 10 V0s before you come to one that you have a chance on. Any nOOb could climb an X3 or at least make a valid attempt at it even if he/she was climbing out of a wheel chair. I want to be able to aspire to climbing V10 so V10s should be available too. The problem with the grading system is that they forgot about the unskilled when they made it. If they had X3-9 then V0 would not need to have such a range and thereby as in your soccer analogy the goal post won't be widened as it is now. That's what the OP is saying and this is how it "affects the rest of us". Your V7 gets easier because V0 has to be 5.5 like as well as 5.10 like. So someone says man the V1 is waaay harder than the V0 it must be a V3. Eventually the whole system gets diluted except at the highest grades. As well as scaring away potential climbing advocates.

(of course your feelings will probably still be hurt when you realize that only send above 7C or so end up on the front page and there's no section for gym problems). ?)

I get to be the first to agree with the OP on this. I started out bouldering because I'm too shy to find a belay partner. After two years of climbing I find V0- is tough and have only done a couple clean. It sucks to go up to a VB and not be able to get started. I have always had to work hard to get little in athletics. So I guess by everyone's answers I should just sit on the couch and get fat like I was doing two years ago. Some folks probably will flame me for agreeing with the OP, but who cares. I have learned to really enjoy bouldering and am glad that some gyms had the sense enough to set some easier routes. I see a direct corrolation of how much business a gym does to the diversity of their routes.

My gym sets V0s very close to how they set their 5.10s on top ropes. They use the 5.7-5.9 nominclature to show the easier routes. They just switched to this and I think its great. I like the idea of X5-X9 better because it makes the statement that this is a bouldering route and will probably take some kind of specialist skill to complete the problem be it power, balance, toe jams, drop knees etc. For all of you that can't handle change. You should read "Who Moved My Cheese".

For those who say just climb rainbow. I know from experience that climbing rainbow doesn't work most of the time. Its fun to complete a climb as marked from a real sit start. I'm glad the gym I started at had auto belays and bouldering comp routes less than 50 or I wouldn't have come back. To those of you that say you don't want me because I'm not a good climber, there are other things about me that make me valuable to the community.

When a community integrates diversity it succeeds. The gym is where begginers go to learn this great sport. There's nothing wrong with having good feelings about an accomplishment while at the same time keeping it real. V0 should look like the crux on a modern 5.10 route. Make some routes harder and rate them V1-14. Make some routes easier and rate them X1-9.

There's my rant I feel better now.

What I'm saying is there should be a place for everyone in the sport. I realize that the elite group usually lead the way in a sport. The problem is that it is discouraging to flail away on 10 V0s before you come to one that you have a chance on. Any nOOb could climb an X3 or at least make a valid attempt at it even if he/she was climbing out of a wheel chair. I want to be able to aspire to climbing V10 so V10s should be available too. The problem with the grading system is that they forgot about the unskilled when they made it. If they had X3-9 then V0 would not need to have such a range and thereby as in your soccer analogy the goal post won't be widened as it is now. That's what the OP is saying and this is how it "affects the rest of us". Your V7 gets easier because V0 has to be 5.5 like as well as 5.10 like. So someone says man the V1 is waaay harder than the V0 it must be a V3. Eventually the whole system gets diluted except at the highest grades. As well as scaring away potential climbing advocates.

I think you've confused "leading the community" with "emergent acceptance." You'll note that he isn't on here promoting his system - it's simply been adopted.

Your best bet is to start a 8a.nu card - the french system starts much lower than the V scale (of course your feelings will probably still be hurt when you realize that only send above 7C or so end up on the front page and there's no section for gym problems). Get all your friends to start 8a cards, start spraying french grades at your local crag and gym and soon everyone who's delicate ego has been damaged by the hate mongering of V0 will have their revenge. (why is there no smiley with devil horns?)

EXACTLY

In an ideal world I would love to see a convergence of ALL of the current grading systems into a single unified system.

oh cmon dingus...

YOU MOO TOO!

awesome story

so that face i take it was 5.7 slab? how long was that pitch?

On another note we’re going to start using “E” grades. I’ve long thought of something similar, but this isn’t my original, it’s take from routesetter.com. Basically it’s a new boulder problem grading system for the easy climbs below VO. Presently we’ve lumped them all into the vague “VO-“ group.

Instead we’ll start to use E grades with E9 being the equivalent of 5.9, E8 of 5.8 and so on. Many people come into the gym having never climbed before and are disappointed to learn that they can’t just hop on the ropes. We direct them often to the bouldering area and this grading system will make it easier for them and for the rest of us just looking to do easier problems. This will take some getting used to, but please be patient; in the long run it’ll make for a better system.

Well, like it or not, looks like the OP is getting his way. A new system is catching on.

I'm a routesetter at the local gym. Just got an email from the manager, that said, in part:


GO

Ironically 30+ years ago boulder problems at the lower end of the scale were often grdaed with a YDS grdae. Gabe - find a Hammond Pond guidebook from the 70's for reference. The John Gill Scale (B1-B3) was reserved for harder stuff - beyond the reach of most mortals.

What goes around comes around.

just to put it out there A V0 is a 5.11a...

There is a real legitimate need for this system. I am glad that it is catching on. Now the key will be to standardize it so that it makes sense when you go from one gym to another. I have been using the Yosemite Decimal system at the gyms I set at with bouldering problems ranging from 5.4-5.9. This is equivalent to X4-X9 (or E4-E9 ect..). The bottom line is you want a brand new climber to be able to come into a gym and hop on a route and be able to find a route that they are able to climb.

Its an exciting time to be a climber! The industry is evolving all the time.

or thats just how the scale goes one of the two...