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billl7
Mar 20, 2008, 4:16 AM
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A couple of escape-the-belay session are coming up here with an all-volunteer organization. And thoughts turn to a belay backup should the student lose rope control during the exercise. Likely, there is a myriad of ways to do the backup and attached is one of them.
How bad/good is it? What other backup belay config would be better? Why use live human for victims anyway? All comments welcome (well, almost all - this is the wild wild west after all).
Bill L
instructions
diagram
(This post was edited by billl7 on Feb 1, 2012, 2:13 PM)
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truckyme
Mar 20, 2008, 5:53 AM
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why not let them learn it on the ground first and then let them do it "for real?"
escaping a belay (safely) isn't the simplest of things when you aren't used to the procedure.
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billl7
Mar 20, 2008, 12:25 PM
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truckyme wrote: why not let them learn it on the ground first and then let them do it "for real?"
truckyme wrote: escaping a belay (safely) isn't the simplest of things when you aren't used to the procedure.
Bill L
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billl7
Mar 20, 2008, 12:38 PM
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Separately, I received a comment about how to connect the static line to the top rope. It was ...
In reply to: A prussik cord attached to the top rope on the belay 'arm' would give you instant adjustability. Clip that to the secondary belay line with lockers. Easily derigged and yet another demonstration of the amazing prussik!
In reply to: I agree. With a prussik, adjusting the connection point would be smooth. On the other hand, literature generally indicates to always back up a prussik. Given the exercise, I think we should view this connection as a primary. One could use two prussiks at that point. Still, various literature about the prussiking-up-a-rope exercise indicates to periodically back up them up (e.g., figure 8's on bytes clipped to harness). Given this, I've come to view an unattended/unweighted prussik with suspicion.
If folks have additional comments on this then I'd like to hear about it.
Bill L
(This post was edited by billl7 on Mar 20, 2008, 1:00 PM)
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jestering
Mar 20, 2008, 1:22 PM
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When I learned we rigged up a "toprope" over the branch of a tree and weighted it with a couple of jugs of water. Not as massive as a human being, but with big containers it's certainly enough to keep it under load. It was very good practice, and it helped me to learn in a hurry.
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bigfatrock
Mar 20, 2008, 1:28 PM
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The only reason you would need to escape the belay is to play a joke on your friend and leave him up on a route. Or to take a piss.
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swaghole
Mar 20, 2008, 1:57 PM
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In reply to: The only reason you would need to escape the belay is to play a joke on your friend and leave him up on a route. Or to take a piss.
What about rescue scenarios? You need to escape the belay for most rescue scenarios. It's part of the basics.
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billl7
Mar 20, 2008, 2:12 PM
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jestering wrote: When I learned we rigged up a "toprope" over the branch of a tree and weighted it with a couple of jugs of water. Not as massive as a human being, but with big containers it's certainly enough to keep it under load. It was very good practice, and it helped me to learn in a hurry.
Bill L
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stefanohatari
Mar 20, 2008, 2:26 PM
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We do this routinely in our Top Rope Site Management class. The easiest way to back up the belayer is to set up a 'belayed rappel' using what we call a 'Marge Simpson', after the diagram we took this from in Rock and Ice a couple years back.
In short, the climber is tied in and on belay, but is also on a single-strand rappel (on the other end of the same rope). He lowers, puts his weight on the belay, backs himself up on the rappel side with a prussik, and hangs out to watch the show.
We find realistic live weight exercises on-site to be a critical part of the learning curve. The 'belayed rappel' makes it safe(r).
Maybe someone recalls which issue of Rock and Ice this was in.
Steve
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chilli
Mar 20, 2008, 2:59 PM
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billl7 wrote: jestering wrote: When I learned we rigged up a "toprope" over the branch of a tree and weighted it with a couple of jugs of water. Not as massive as a human being, but with big containers it's certainly enough to keep it under load. It was very good practice, and it helped me to learn in a hurry. Good point - then a backup belay is not needed although I think it is desirable to have them eventually get to the 'full load'. Bill L
i'd have to agree about the weights thing. when i learned to escape a belay and other rescue techniques, we never bothered weighting the rope with a person, we just used a big weighted block. granted it wasn't the weight of a person, but it was enough that we couldn't just walk around all willy-nilly while conected to the weight. i would think that would suffice just fine for practice, and negate the need for backup belay.
edit (addition): we DID use people to weight the ropes for bringing up a second on z-pulley/3:1, but the safety concern wasn't as great with that rig
(This post was edited by chilli on Mar 20, 2008, 3:01 PM)
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billl7
Mar 20, 2008, 5:38 PM
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This does pretty quickly get off into a discussion about acceptable risk.
For using a person for the weight, is the risk acceptable for the benefit of doing the exercise under 'full load'? ... given that the person is, say, 15 feet off the deck, hanging statically, and might fall a couple feet onto a tied-off backup belay.
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altelis
Mar 20, 2008, 5:56 PM
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From my experience of being taught this skill and having taught many this skill, here is my suggestion:
Teach escaping the belay from belay from the top directly off the harness situation. There are a few reasons this works well:
1) There is a LOT more weight on the belayer- this makes the situation a little more stressful and it also makes rope management more important. You definitely don't want weighted strands running over your leg or over a non-weighted strand you need access to. If you can successfully and quickly escape the belay from here escaping from a standing from below or belay off the anchor from above will be a piece of cake.
2)Setting up a backup is so simple. have the "dummy" tie into both ends of the same rope. One side is the belay and the other is the backup. Have the belayer lower the dummy/victim down a dozen or so feet. Depending on the skills of the belayer just feed out the backup strand or attach it via grigri or munter directly to the anchor (or a separate anchor if this produces too much cluster). Once the victim is at the desired height, put a little slack in the rope to account for the inevitable slip that will occur (1-2 ft should be PLENTY) and tie off the belay on the backup strand with munter mule. If anything goes wrong they are covered and one rope is plenty long enough and this produces the least amount of cluster
3)depending on the skills you want to teach you can very easily transition directly from escaping the belay to haul systems
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irregularpanda
Mar 20, 2008, 6:10 PM
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billl7 wrote: Separately, I received a comment about how to connect the static line to the top rope. It was ... In reply to: A prussik cord attached to the top rope on the belay 'arm' would give you instant adjustability. Clip that to the secondary belay line with lockers. Easily derigged and yet another demonstration of the amazing prussik! My thoughts are ... In reply to: I agree. With a prussik, adjusting the connection point would be smooth. On the other hand, literature generally indicates to always back up a prussik. Given the exercise, I think we should view this connection as a primary. One could use two prussiks at that point. Still, various literature about the prussiking-up-a-rope exercise indicates to periodically back up them up (e.g., figure 8's on bytes clipped to harness). Given this, I've come to view an unattended/unweighted prussik with suspicion. If folks have additional comments on this then I'd like to hear about it. Bill L
To put it succinctly my view on escaping belays is this: there are two ways to do it. The fast way (prusik) and the right way (everything else).
There are so many other ways to escape the belay, and many of them (in real life) must be done one handed, at least until your hands are free. My question is this: if your students are still giving belays with a backup belayer, then why are they learning to escape a belay already? Are you with the mountaineers?
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billl7
Mar 20, 2008, 7:07 PM
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irregularpanda, Your quote from me about prussiks has nothing to do with actually escaping the belay while the first part of your response does. (?)
No, I am not with the mountaineers. Is that good or bad? Probably hard for either one of us to say.
As part of the sessions, students transission from having their belays backed up to not - although you are getting pretty far off topic.
Bill L
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shockabuku
Mar 20, 2008, 7:09 PM
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billl7 wrote: ...this is the wild wild west after all). Bill L
Yes it is. Sometimes I even miss it.
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majid_sabet
Mar 20, 2008, 7:38 PM
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How could you escape a belay if your belayer gets hit by a rock and locks the rope on his GG while you were leading a pitch with several protection in place and now you are hanging on your last protection, 80 feet up under some nasty roof?
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shockabuku
Mar 20, 2008, 8:37 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: How could you escape a belay if your belayer gets hit by a rock and locks the rope on his GG while you were leading a pitch with several protection in place and now you are hanging on your last protection, 80 feet up under some nasty roof?
I'm sure you'll tell me a better answer, but I guess off the top of my head I'll use my Ti bloc and a prussik made out of my nut tool leash to ascend up to my last piece, tie an eight on a bight in the slack I just created, clip it into my belay loop so that I'm now clipped in as close to the pro as possible, regain my last position on the roof, pull the gear and fall. Then do it all over again until I've downclimbed to my belayer.
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winkwinklambonini
Mar 20, 2008, 10:34 PM
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shockabuku wrote: majid_sabet wrote: How could you escape a belay if your belayer gets hit by a rock and locks the rope on his GG while you were leading a pitch with several protection in place and now you are hanging on your last protection, 80 feet up under some nasty roof? I'm sure you'll tell me a better answer, but I guess off the top of my head I'll use my Ti bloc and a prussik made out of my nut tool leash to ascend up to my last piece, tie an eight on a bight in the slack I just created, clip it into my belay loop so that I'm now clipped in as close to the pro as possible, regain my last position on the roof, pull the gear and fall. Then do it all over again until I've downclimbed to my belayer.
Don't fall with a biner as your attachment, I'd tie a bowline with a bight with the slack.
But, even better, if you have gear, supplement that piece to make an anchor and descend the rope with prussiks.
(This post was edited by winkwinklambonini on Mar 20, 2008, 10:39 PM)
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billl7
Mar 20, 2008, 11:40 PM
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altelis, Escaping the belay from above sounds like the ultimate way to do the test. And I agree with the 1 to 2 feet slack in the backup belay being plenty.
Bill L
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majid_sabet
Mar 20, 2008, 11:54 PM
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shockabuku wrote: majid_sabet wrote: How could you escape a belay if your belayer gets hit by a rock and locks the rope on his GG while you were leading a pitch with several protection in place and now you are hanging on your last protection, 80 feet up under some nasty roof? I'm sure you'll tell me a better answer, but I guess off the top of my head I'll use my Ti bloc and a prussik made out of my nut tool leash to ascend up to my last piece, tie an eight on a bight in the slack I just created, clip it into my belay loop so that I'm now clipped in as close to the pro as possible, regain my last position on the roof, pull the gear and fall. http://Then do it all over again until I've downclimbed to my belayer.
Your system will work but I do not like the idea of taking stuff out if you do not need it plus you could shock your system
Another option
Climb up to the last pro then beef if up if possible. Use your shoe laces for the prussic, tie a fig 8 of the last pro , get yourself out of the fig 8 run your rap gear (assuming you got few feet of slack). Rap down to the next pro, by pass it but leave it there with rope running thru it. Continue till you reach belayer.
If for any reason the top piece comes off, it will fall in to the lower piece but you are still attached to the system.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Mar 20, 2008, 11:55 PM)
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hugepedro
Mar 21, 2008, 12:06 AM
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Any time I've taught self rescue or crevasse extraction I just hang a pack. It sucks for the “dummy” to hang in the harness that long, and if the student effs up the falling pack makes for a nice object lesson.
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billl7
Mar 21, 2008, 3:44 AM
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Scenarios I have seen for a different exercise but with a similar difference:
In a simulated catch-the-falling-leader exercise, the rock was maybe 40 pounds and most every relatively inexperienced belayer could manage a 'surprise' fall quite well.
Later in the same day, the same set of students assumed different upper-belay positions while a climber below would take maybe 3 or 4 foot falls. It was not uncommon to see a poorly positioned belayer get jacked around a bit.
Bill L
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irregularpanda
Mar 21, 2008, 10:24 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: shockabuku wrote: majid_sabet wrote: How could you escape a belay if your belayer gets hit by a rock and locks the rope on his GG while you were leading a pitch with several protection in place and now you are hanging on your last protection, 80 feet up under some nasty roof? I'm sure you'll tell me a better answer, but I guess off the top of my head I'll use my Ti bloc and a prussik made out of my nut tool leash to ascend up to my last piece, tie an eight on a bight in the slack I just created, clip it into my belay loop so that I'm now clipped in as close to the pro as possible, regain my last position on the roof, pull the gear and fall. http://Then do it all over again until I've downclimbed to my belayer. Your system will work but I do not like the idea of taking stuff out if you do not need it plus you could shock your system Another option Climb up to the last pro then beef if up if possible. Use your shoe laces for the prussic, tie a fig 8 of the last pro , get yourself out of the fig 8 run your rap gear (assuming you got few feet of slack). Rap down to the next pro, by pass it but leave it there with rope running thru it. Continue till you reach belayer. If for any reason the top piece comes off, it will fall in to the lower piece but you are still attached to the system.
This is an excellent question as this is a very likely situation in certain rock types. However, Majid, your answer is misleading. I'm assuming you use the prussik to simply back up yourself and prevent falls.
Secondly, why tie and 8-on-a-bight, simply to untie it 2 minutes later? Most of the time, I would use the simplest solution possible to prevent unnecessary confusion. Also, how are you rappelling off a tensioned line? Clarify please.
I would climb to the pro under the roof, beef it up to real anchor status, and then tie 2 prussiks. (decision point: do you have 2 ropes or 1? Do you have less than half of the rope out or more than half?) If I had 2 ropes, and more than half of the rope out, then I would be forced to leave 1 behind  . Tie this rope to the anchor using an 8-on-a-bight, and this rope will be descended using the 2 prussiks. The other rope could simply be dropped to the belayer or just be unclipped from every piece of pro as you go. If you are lucky enough to have less than half the rope out, then you could simply lower yourself on the same prussiks, but let the rope run through the anchor. Then you'd be able to pull the rope. This is one reason I use twin ropes.
Then comes a complicated rescue.... cow tail anyone? Also, I usually climb with partners who have helmets, it's kinda a rule on multi pitch climbs.
(This post was edited by irregularpanda on Mar 21, 2008, 10:26 PM)
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billl7
Mar 21, 2008, 11:35 PM
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edit: [snip]
Tried this out for several practice sessions and it worked very well.
(This post was edited by billl7 on Jun 7, 2008, 2:30 PM)
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billl7
Feb 1, 2012, 2:14 PM
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Edited the original post to clarify (?) the instructions and added a diagram.
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rgold
Feb 1, 2012, 4:27 PM
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I think there is a hidden issue worth discussing. Bill mentions students screw up tying the mule knot and drop the leader. The real problem is the mule knot, especially as used in the American version of the belay escape, in which the belay strand has to be pushed through the device locker and the mule knot is then tied around the loaded rope above the device.
This protocol gives plenty of opportunity to fumble and loose control of the belay. A few practice session under highly controlled circumstances will not make someone competent to do this under all the pressures, psychological and environmental, of a real scenario.
The solution is a much older technique that is much better: four wraps of the rope around the thigh and boom---you are hands-free and ready to install a prussik. It is much harder---I'd say nearly impossible---to fumble this, making it a far better protocol for emergency situations. It is also faster and easier and there is nothing to remember under stress. I've never understood why this isn't the standard method taught.
If the belayer is disturbed by the tendency of the wraps to fall down the leg under the weight of a hanging rope, the free end of the rope can be brought up over the head and dropped on the opposite shoulder
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billl7
Feb 1, 2012, 5:01 PM
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rgold wrote: The solution is a much older technique that is much better: four wraps of the rope around the thigh and boom---you are hands-free and ready to install a prussik. It is much harder---I'd say nearly impossible---to fumble this, making it a far better protocol for emergency situations. It is also faster and easier and there is nothing to remember under stress. I've never understood why this isn't the standard method taught.
Some of the veterans I climb with also use the above technique. Up until now I've been dismissing it as introducing a lot of unnecessary slack because eventually the leg will have to be unwrapped to truly escape the belay. ... the amount of slack being an issue if wishing to avoid relying on a prusik/kleimheist/etc. by itself.
Of course, the slack needn't be the entire remaining rope since a backup knot can be anchored in close proximity to the mule knot or leg wrap. At the same time, with the latter, one probably needs even more slack to allow getting the leg out of the leg wrap.
I understand about the fumbling of the mule knot. While I think it is practical to learn to do it in a way that makes fumbling very unlikely, you make a good point about whether being under stress might undo the previous learning as it often does in us humans.
Any thoughts about whether the additional slack of the leg wrap is significant enough to seek to mitigate?
Note: I do think in practice sessions that folks should learn to work wtih the mule knot since the leg wrap is not an option in applications outside of escaping the belay. I'm mainly thinking of self-rescue techniques where a tied-off munter might be needed at a top anchor while descending.
Bill
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rgold
Feb 1, 2012, 6:29 PM
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Bill, I'm not sure what you mean about slack. When unwrapping, you grab the rope above your thigh, the section between the thigh and the device. Unwrapping is done almost entirely by leg action, spinning the rope off the thigh. Absolutely no slack is released into the system.
Actually, this is yet another argument for the leg-wrap method. The mule knot is typically popped open, which releases an uncontrolled foot or so of slack. There is no such release with the leg wrap, so no potential for the leader to drop hard onto the prussik.
Although the leg wrap, as far as I can tell, is superior in every way to mule lock-offs, the British method, in which the locking off is done on the solid side of the belay device biner rather than on the loaded rope above the device, strikes me as being easier to remember, quicker to set up, and having less fumble potential.
Perhaps there is some confusion about purpose? The leg wrap is used simply to get hands-free. Eventually, the leader's rope will have to be anchored to something, and that anchor has to be a munter mule. Fumbling is not an issue for that knot, however, since there are other things holding the leader's rope.
Might I wander off-topic a bit and mention that before one starts an escape process, one ought to decide whether the best thing to do is to lower the leader? The first priority should be to get the leader out of a hanging position. Self-rescue training seems to focus on processes that will, in the field under the kinds of difficult circumstances one could reasonably expect, leave the leader hanging for a very long period of time. This is dangerous and very possibly fatal for a leader in shock or semi-conscious or worse.
I think there is a distinct danger that a person under stress in an emergency situation will hang the leader up there forever doing all the things they were taught to do when by far the best thing would have been to lower the leader back to the ledge, if possible.
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billl7
Feb 1, 2012, 6:56 PM
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rgold wrote: Bill, I'm not sure what you mean about slack. When unwrapping, you grab the rope above your thigh, the section between the thigh and the device. Unwrapping is done almost entirely by leg action, spinning the rope off the thigh. Absolutely no slack is released into the system.
Ah, I think I see how this could work. From the beginning: leg wrap, put in something else to take the load to the anchor, re-grab and brake with the section between thigh and device, unwrap the leg, and one-handedly tie the brake rope off short to the anchor with something load releasable (prolly munter mule). Edit: well, the brake hand could probably assist with a finger or two.
rgold wrote: Actually, this is yet another argument for the leg-wrap method. The mule knot is typically popped open, which releases an uncontrolled foot or so of slack. There is no such release with the leg wrap, so no potential for the leader to drop hard onto the prussik.
In practice, the mule knot is pretty forgiving in this situation. Once the overhand backup is released, the mule knot gives out some of that rope (assuming there's not a lot of slack in what takes the load and there shouldn't need to be since a prusik can be slid up).
rgold wrote: Although the leg wrap, as far as I can tell, is superior in every way to mule lock-offs, the British method, in which the locking off is done on the solid side of the belay device biner rather than on the loaded rope above the device, strikes me as being easier to remember, quicker to set up, and having less fumble potential.
British method?
rgold wrote: Perhaps there is some confusion about purpose? The leg wrap is used simply to get hands-free. Eventually, the leader's rope will have to be anchored to something, and that anchor has to be a munter mule. Fumbling is not an issue for that knot, however, since there are other things holding the leader's rope.
Agree that fumbling is not an issue for that one. Typically, for me, it's a prusik to the load strand linked to the anchor by a mariners' knot or a munter mule.
I'll respond to the harness-hang syndrome in a minute.
Bill L
(This post was edited by billl7 on Feb 1, 2012, 7:09 PM)
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billl7
Feb 1, 2012, 7:08 PM
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rgold wrote: Might I wander off-topic a bit and mention that before one starts an escape process, one ought to decide whether the best thing to do is to lower the leader? The first priority should be to get the leader out of a hanging position.
Totally agree. Not expressed here is the usual pre-exercise discussion about simply lowering the leader to the deck or ledge when there is enough rope as very likely the best first thing to do.
rgold wrote: Self-rescue training seems to focus on processes that will, in the field under the kinds of difficult circumstances one could reasonably expect, leave the leader hanging for a very long period of time. This is dangerous and very possibly fatal for a leader in shock or semi-conscious or worse.
I can see that. Sometimes, also, I think we try to fit in as many techniques as possible in one exercise because there isn't another opportunity in the current "schedule". Maybe the answer is to either change the "schedule" or reduce the content.
rgold wrote: I think there is a distinct danger that a person under stress in an emergency situation will hang the leader up there forever doing all the things they were taught to do when by far the best thing would have been to lower the leader back to the ledge, if possible.
Agreed.
Thanks for putting a lot of value into this thread.
Bill L
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j_ung
Feb 1, 2012, 8:46 PM
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swaghole wrote: In reply to: The only reason you would need to escape the belay is to play a joke on your friend and leave him up on a route. Or to take a piss. What about rescue scenarios? You need to escape the belay for most rescue scenarios. It's part of the basics.
Even in rescue scenarios, I can't think of one reason to ever escape a toprope belay under load, not when you can just lower the victim to the ground.
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Howard70
Feb 1, 2012, 9:15 PM
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j_ung wrote: Even in rescue scenarios, I can't think of one reason to ever escape a toprope belay under load, not when you can just lower the victim to the ground.
In the exercises Bill originally described the scenario is escaping the belay when a leader takes a fall with more than half the rope out. Lowering won't reach the belay ledge. At least that was what we emulated we I was Bill's student.
Howard
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j_ung
Feb 1, 2012, 9:20 PM
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Howard70 wrote: j_ung wrote: Even in rescue scenarios, I can't think of one reason to ever escape a toprope belay under load, not when you can just lower the victim to the ground. In the exercises Bill originally described the scenario is escaping the belay when a leader takes a fall with more than half the rope out. Lowering won't reach the belay ledge. At least that was what we emulated we I was Bill's student. Howard
Ah, thanks for the clarification.
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MFC
Feb 1, 2012, 9:23 PM
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Re: escaping the belay
In a rescue scenario escaping the belay is not always necessary or even prudent.
Going "hands free" is obviously the first physical step in a rescue, but depending on your next course of action, you may not need to escape the belay to perform a rescue.
Marc Chauvin has an excellent article on his website that details the steps necessary for various scenarios in rescuing the 2nd.
www.chauvinguides.com/selfrescue/selfstart.cfm
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billl7
Feb 2, 2012, 1:43 PM
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Registered: Oct 13, 2005
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Heresy! 
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billl7
Feb 2, 2012, 2:26 PM
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I checked it out and totally agree that a redirected belay greatly simplifies assisting an injured climber. Still, for me, just because I can escape the belay more easily doesn't mean I'll choose to always redirect.
Bill L
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