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shermanr6


Apr 23, 2008, 12:20 AM
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Twisted bolts
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http://bolt-products.com/Glue-inBoltDesign.htm

Could these be the wave of the future? They claim to be much stronger than other designs. Opinions?


acorneau


Apr 23, 2008, 1:17 PM
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Re: [shermanr6] Twisted bolts [In reply to]
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shermanr6 wrote:
Could these be the wave of the future? They claim to be much stronger than other designs. Opinions?

Their "Studs" look kind of limp to me...


UnsureLaugh


chossmonkey


Apr 23, 2008, 3:55 PM
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They have very impressive specs for pull out strength.

Here is a link to the actual bolt page http://www.bolt-products.com/ProtectionBolts.htm

And a pic of the bolts.




majid_sabet


Apr 23, 2008, 4:07 PM
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They look great for emergency rap if you have no bolt kit or if you reach a rap station where the rap bolts are missing and you got nothing else .


chossmonkey


Apr 23, 2008, 4:26 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
They look great for emergency rap if you have no bolt kit or if you reach a rap station where the rap bolts are missing and you got nothing else .
They are glue-ins except for the limp penis ones, those are studs for use when bolting.


shockabuku


Apr 23, 2008, 4:37 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
They look great for emergency rap if you have no bolt kit or if you reach a rap station where the rap bolts are missing and you got nothing else .

Majid, maybe you should add some of these to your bottle of webbing with a quick kit of glue, drill, and hammer.Sly


majid_sabet


Apr 23, 2008, 4:39 PM
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I think you could twist them in for a one time use without glue.


wanlessrm


Apr 23, 2008, 5:19 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
I think you could twist them in for a one time use without glue.
Really?
Why only one time?


majid_sabet


Apr 23, 2008, 5:40 PM
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wanlessrm wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
I think you could twist them in for a one time use without glue.
Really?
Why only one time?

There has been few times where I rap and missed the rap hanger or for some reasons the rap bolts were gone and I had to jug back up .A bolt/hanger like this would be a great tool cause you could twist it and rap on it.

of course I would leave a note next to it that says " this SOL rap bolt was placed by Majid and do not use it or you will die".


shockabuku


Apr 23, 2008, 5:56 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
wanlessrm wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
I think you could twist them in for a one time use without glue.
Really?
Why only one time?

There has been few times where I rap and missed the rap hanger or for some reasons the rap bolts were gone and I had to jug back up .A bolt/hanger like this would be a great tool cause you could twist it and rap on it.

of course I would leave a note next to it that says " this SOL rap bolt was placed by Majid and do not use it or you will die".

I think you could just leave a note that said "Majid" and that would be good enough!Wink


Valarc


Apr 23, 2008, 5:57 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
I think you could twist them in for a one time use without glue.

uhhh... wtf??


jt512


Apr 23, 2008, 7:41 PM
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Valarc wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
I think you could twist them in for a one time use without glue.

uhhh... wtf??

Majid is just being modest. He knows that most of us don't have his SuperMajid strength.

Jay


billcoe_


Apr 24, 2008, 7:36 AM
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chossmonkey wrote:
They have very impressive specs for pull out strength.

Here is a link to the actual bolt page http://www.bolt-products.com/ProtectionBolts.htm

And a pic of the bolts.

[image]http://www.bolt-products.com/images/6mmbolts.gif[/image]


They look to be the strongest cheapest stainless steel combo for limestone and weak rock bolted routes. It's what most of Europe is starting to use, there is like 2500 installed in Kaylmos Greece with good results, and they've tested them at the Red and found them better as well. The reality, hoever, of staring at a 6mm piece of rod (@1/4 " us), is a different breed of cat though. Falling on it can elongate the "hanger" part of the bolt without reduction in strength, something else which would take some getting use to as well.

Majid is kidding, the hole gets drilled oversized to accommodate the glue, there is no hole you would have a drill for to archive even a 1 time result of this holding. You need specifically engineered Construction Epoxy like the Hilty ty500 or the Ultrabond 1300. Simpson makes a 2 part epoxy you can get at home depot that has the specs as well. Hole cleanliness and sizing is critical! Furthermore, using Gorilla brand duct tape with an X cut in it for the Bueller bolt to fit in just to keep the glue in until it drys looks to be the way to go as well.


truello


Apr 24, 2008, 7:42 AM
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Rick Weber tested a few of these at Animal Crackers Wall in Muir Valley. He claims they're stronger than the hangers we're used to.

Stronger or not they feel like you're clipping into a paper clip. That's a good thing though, they're much lower profile.


chossmonkey


Apr 24, 2008, 8:34 AM
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billcoe_ wrote:
Majid is kidding, the hole gets drilled oversized to accommodate the glue, there is no hole you would have a drill for to archive even a 1 time result of this holding. You need specifically engineered Construction Epoxy like the Hilty ty500 or the Ultrabond 1300. Simpson makes a 2 part epoxy you can get at home depot that has the specs as well. Hole cleanliness and sizing is critical! Furthermore, using Gorilla brand duct tape with an X cut in it for the Bueller bolt to fit in just to keep the glue in until it drys looks to be the way to go as well.
Jim (the guy making them) says because of the twist design you don' t need to oversize the hole.This makes them suited to steep routes since they aren't as likely to creep out as the glue is curing. He says you also can get away with acrylic glue instead of expensive epoxies and still get super high load values. Though you would still need to make sure you are using the correct type of glue.



My biggest concern would be deformation on steeper routes, but I haven't heard of it being a problem.


majid_sabet


Apr 24, 2008, 8:59 AM
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The only way you can truly tell if these are stronger is by setting up a static anchor and then pull them with a puller and compare the data from load cell to other similar type bolts.

I like the idea that they are both screw and hanger as one piece where you could just screw them in to a hole and rap if the hole is deep enough on a SOL situation where you got no drill kit.


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Apr 24, 2008, 9:00 AM)


flint


Apr 24, 2008, 9:14 AM
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Pull results from the Red...

http://www.redriverclimbing.com/...highlight=glue+bolts

j-


marde


Apr 24, 2008, 12:40 PM
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chossmonkey wrote:
...

My biggest concern would be deformation on steeper routes, but I haven't heard of it being a problem.

As bolts like that (without the twists) are pretty much the standard in Germany I can tell you there's no problem about that.
And at least in the Frankenjura you see climbers falling on steep and very steep routes on the same bolts the whole day.
No problem even after years.


gunkiemike


Apr 24, 2008, 5:09 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
I like the idea that they are both screw and hanger as one piece where you could just screw them in to a hole and rap if the hole is deep enough on a SOL situation where you got no drill kit.

You still need the glue. And 24 hours to wait.

Or maybe you think these are for ICE CLIMBING...yea, that's explains your confused replies.


stymingersfink


Apr 24, 2008, 8:32 PM
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gunkiemike wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
I like the idea that they are both screw and hanger as one piece where you could just screw them in to a hole and rap if the hole is deep enough on a SOL situation where you got no drill kit.

You still need the glue. And 24 hours to wait.

Or maybe you think these are for ICE CLIMBING...yea, that's explains your confused replies.
I wonder how the hole in the rock he's going to screw them into (without a drill kit) ended up being found in just the right place, never mind being just the right SIZE.


majid_sabet


Apr 24, 2008, 8:37 PM
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flint wrote:
Pull results from the Red...

http://www.redriverclimbing.com/...highlight=glue+bolts

j-

woo, 5500 lbs and still holding !!

At 1000 pounds the bolt stretched a tiny bit, crumbling a little rock at the entrance to the bolt hole. At about 2200 pounds, a piece of the rock around the bolt hole entrance broke away to a depth of about 1/2 inch, again caused by deformation of the bolt. At 3500 pounds, the pump bypass valve kicked in, requiring harder pumping to increase the force. The loop on the bolt stretched but never lost its shape where the shackle attached. The shackle is shaped similarly to a carabiner on a quickdraw.

At 5660 pounds (25+ kiloNewtons), I stopped the test. The bolt was intact and the epoxy in the hole was holding solid. Only about 3/4 inch of the epoxy around the 5.5 inch length of bolt shank had broken away when the rock around the hole failed. This left almost 5 inches of epoxied shank in the hole. After the initial test, I relieved the pressure and cranked it back up again to 5660 pounds and let it sit under load for about a half hour.


billcoe_


Apr 27, 2008, 7:57 PM
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Yeah, the real impressive part is that the Red is reputed to have real soft rock. This is not Granite or Basalt, in fact I think it's softer then most sandstones and limestones isn't it?

As far as the glue goes, the 2 part epoxy is better than i part acrylic: like everywhere. However, what is interesting is that different places have results. In Swinburne South Africa, they tested a wide range of adhesives, and found that Upat
Ampoules (Quartz aggreggate, Epoxy acrylate resin with Hardener in a glass capsule) worked the best, better even than Hilti HY-150, which is a strong 2 part epoxy. That rock is substantially soft.

http://www.saclimb.co.za/...andstone_report.html

Here's some links to more info on the Bueller style twist bolts, and some U-bolt info in Australia. With U-bolts, spacing and thread depth are very important. This guy did his masters thesis on it so it's very good, but still leaves some holes in the data.

http://climbargolis.com/Glue-inBoltDesign.htm

http://www.chockstone.org/...SandstoneBolting.pdf


vertical_planar


May 29, 2008, 6:27 AM
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billcoe_ wrote:
there is like 2500 installed in Kaylmos Greece with good results

Absolutely not true. There is not a single bolt like these installed in Kalymnos. At least not one I am aware of after numerous visits in the island
Moreover, the latest UIAA standard on bolts and hangers specificaly states that these bolts are not certified and has a picture of these with a big X upon it.
Check your facts before sperading false information


Partner j_ung


May 29, 2008, 6:37 AM
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stymingersfink wrote:
gunkiemike wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
I like the idea that they are both screw and hanger as one piece where you could just screw them in to a hole and rap if the hole is deep enough on a SOL situation where you got no drill kit.

You still need the glue. And 24 hours to wait.

Or maybe you think these are for ICE CLIMBING...yea, that's explains your confused replies.
I wonder how the hole in the rock he's going to screw them into (without a drill kit) ended up being found in just the right place, never mind being just the right SIZE.

Majid M.O.: Talk out of your ass, then backpedal, qualify and re-qualify when you're called out. Resist being "wrong" at all costs. That way, even when you're right, people don't believe you.


marde


May 29, 2008, 7:27 AM
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vertical_planar wrote:
Moreover, the latest UIAA standard on bolts and hangers specificaly states that these bolts are not certified and has a picture of these with a big X upon it.
Check your facts before sperading false information
you refer to that?
http://www.theuiaa.org/...A123_RockAnchors.pdf
i guess.

do you know why that is, because there is no further description or reason why that design is xed out.


0x2102


May 29, 2008, 8:20 AM
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majid_sabet wrote:
of course I would leave a note next to it that says " this SOL rap bolt was placed by Majid and do not use it or you will die".

So, you could use it and survive, but someone else would die?


chossmonkey


May 29, 2008, 10:19 AM
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vertical_planar wrote:
billcoe_ wrote:
there is like 2500 installed in Kaylmos Greece with good results

Absolutely not true. There is not a single bolt like these installed in Kalymnos. At least not one I am aware of after numerous visits in the island
Moreover, the latest UIAA standard on bolts and hangers specificaly states that these bolts are not certified and has a picture of these with a big X upon it.
Check your facts before sperading false information

There are thousands of them in Argolis region of Greece.

They are not the same design as the "X"ed bolts on the UIAA page.

Whether they are UIAA certified yet is rather irrelevant. They are stronger than anything else on the market This is from their website, "All our products exceed the relevant European standard EN959 and are so certified."


vertical_planar


May 29, 2008, 11:44 PM
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marde wrote:
do you know why that is, because there is no further description or reason why that design is xed out.

No. I can tell you for sure that the guy who sellls the bolts has bolted some crags in Greece around 2000. In a magazine publication back then he stated that "he plans to certify his bolts to UIAA standards" That never happened. He either didn't bother or tried and failed.


(This post was edited by vertical_planar on May 29, 2008, 11:56 PM)


vertical_planar


May 29, 2008, 11:54 PM
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chossmonkey wrote:
Whether they are UIAA certified yet is rather irrelevant. They are stronger than anything else on the market This is from their website, "All our products exceed the relevant European standard EN959 and are so certified."

EN959 is provided by the manufacturer of the bolts himself and is not subjected to any external audit. UIAA certification is provided by an independent body (UIAA in this case). If you trust the manufacturer more than UIAA thats fine- but I dont see how the UIIA cert is irrelevant. On the contrary

As for the bolts instaled in Argolida, they are exacty the design shown in the UIAA standard. The bolts on the site are a later design (he does not sell the ones installed in argolida any more for some reason- maybe because they used to bend when you simply put body weight on them). There is only one (relatively) new crag in Argolis (in Katafiki ravine) where he installed the new bolts.


miklaw


May 30, 2008, 1:03 AM
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The rock at The Red is very good compared to Australian Blue Mountains sandstone. We have found that 8mm or less ringbolts (both single shaft welded "P" bolts and double shaft bolts similar to this), tho heaps strong, tend to fatigue badly. Every fall breaks a bit of rock off the edge of the hole and you end up with a crater. Fine for good rock though.
mikl


vterinme


Jun 1, 2008, 4:24 PM
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Ahhh, the only thing Majid has screwed is his mother...

Why oh why did she waste all that money on his child birth..

In the end they are bolts.... if you're worried climb trad and do the walk off...


billcoe_


Jun 23, 2008, 10:05 PM
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vertical_planar wrote:
billcoe_ wrote:
there is like 2500 installed in Kaylmos Greece with good results

Absolutely not true. There is not a single bolt like these installed in Kalymnos. At least not one I am aware of after numerous visits in the island
Moreover, the latest UIAA standard on bolts and hangers specificaly states that these bolts are not certified and has a picture of these with a big X upon it.
Check your facts before sperading false information

Well thanks for the heads up: that's why I always post the link: so i can toss it back in folks faces:-). However, when someone revamps their web site......I'm pretty sure that I earlier read dude said that, however, thanks for pointing it out, as I cannot find that exact quote on his site. He does have gaping holes in his data for sure! Big time. And now he has a bunch of new information since he is apparently now selling the SS twisted glue-in bolts and has some interesting testing info which is new as well. The testing info, WHICH SHOWS THAT A WELL CLEANED HOLE TESTS TO 34KG, want to see the exact quote ? God forbid I'm "sperading specificaly" bad info by quoting what I have read. I do appreciate you adding to the knowledge base though. Thanks.

Here I will quote verbatim, the link is already above:

"Bolt Products Glue-In Bolts.

You may have noticed that for our own glue-ins we give much better results than this, a minimum is 35kN and in reasonable rock we achieve around 50kN at which point the bolt breaks. In fact in an independant test a bolt was still holding 31,4kN when testing was stopped with only 42mm of embedment. The bolt was glued in using an epoxy rated at 12,4N/mm² in a 12,7mm (½") hole which with this depth should only hold to 20,78kN.
Obviously either the formula gives incorrect results or there is something special about our bolts.
The answer lies in the unique structure of Bolt Products bolts which allow us to use both mechanical and chemical fastening. Not only does the twisted leg design give outstanding mechanical keying for the glue but a wedging effect is induced internally in the bolt when you try to extract it. As the two legs are not joined at their lower end they slide across each other and wedge into place, roviding an additional mechanical effect along with the normal glue.
To demonstrate this action we have tested a number of bolts dry fitted without any glue.
The photographs and results below are from tests in a granite block until it disintegrated. We then moved to a softish concrete block and achieved an amazing 33,84kN with an 8mm rod bolt.



The bolt top right is a 6mm rod 80mm long bolt radially tested in a granite block to 19.8kN when it extracted.


The large bolt in the centre is a 8mm rod X 150mm long bolt radially tested in a soft concrete block which held 33,8kN.


The bolt lower left is a 6mm rod 100mm long bolt also tested in concrete to 18kN at failure.

Axial tests we have performed give values of around 60% of the radial tests."

Anyway, if you have knowledge that this is Fed up, please step forward immediately! I see that he indicates that the DAV insists U-bolts are not utilized, but i appears he indicates unthreaded ones are the issue, and that he did not test standard threaded U-bolts at all.
___________________________________________________
Next:

hotgemini wrote:
I too have misgivings about the South African tests, very small sample sizes, bad practice hole sizing (same size as anchor), insufficient cure time, oddly designed and undersize anchors. All they really demonstrated was that poor bolting leads to poor bolts. But I guess research has to start somewhere.

As for non-mixing epoxy, it is a pretty academic discussion. If you started sticking in a bolt and noticed that the glue wasn't mixing properly, you'd be a fool to continue.

The big dig anchor failures was attributed to creep, which is where a material is subjected to a constant high (eg. a significant percentage of its yield strength) load (and usually temperature but obviously not in the big dig case) which does not apply to climbing anchors.

A bolting colleague of mine just made an incredibly ingenious rig, its a modified set of (large) bolt cutters, he's added rollers onto the pivots of the bolt cutters allowing him to use it to both cut the 10mm stainless and neatly and repeatedly bend U bolts with a 50mm leg spacing, very quickly by hand. That still leaves the task of grinding, notching and washing the U bolts so its not quite the field deployable bolt factory it might first appear.


-Adam.

*Like you Adam, I think that the South African tests had holes in it, but so does the Aussie's Masters thesis!

*The non-mixing of epoxy is somewhat assuaged by starting by squirting a test patch into some plastic and then doing the anchor. Later, if the test patch didn't firm up, re-do the anchor. It is a poor method, but the best out there currently.

*Short version of the big dig failure: they not only substituted a fast cure Epoxy material thinking it would be better as they were injecting it into vertical overhead holes (which was as you say not tested or rated for "creep"), it was also freezing cold, often below the recommended install temp and the roof was dripping water at the time.

* For homemade u-bolts, I think the key to the strength is getting the epoxy keyed into it. So a shallow grind won't work well. Commercially available threads were extensivly tested on the Australian guys masters thesis, and worked very effectively as long as one pays attention to the sizing as well as the thread depth/keying issue.

* The Uiaa link Vertical Planer shows does not exclude or show a TWISTED bolt, but a different version, not twisted and with extremely short threads, that has the X on it. That is not to say that the twisted version is UIAA approved, but I'd climb and fall on them all day long based on the 2 independent parties semi-unofficial testing.

But that's me.


Take care all!


vertical_planar


Jun 24, 2008, 7:15 AM
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billcoe_ wrote:
* The Uiaa link Vertical Planer shows does not exclude or show a TWISTED bolt, but a different version, not twisted and with extremely short threads, that has the X on it. That is not to say that the twisted version is UIAA approved, but I'd climb and fall on them all day long based on the 2 independent parties semi-unofficial testing.

But that's me.

dude since you seem to prefer unoffical info here's a piece of it:
The sketch was added in the UIAA standard specifically to indicate the unsuitability of the Argolis bolts.

Take it or leave it, your pick


billcoe_


Jun 24, 2008, 8:09 AM
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Ok Ok, I'll take it!


billcoe_


Jun 24, 2008, 8:11 AM
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Take it for now, however, Chossmonkeys post above is in direct conflict with your info.

Anyone else have any knowledge on this?


c4c


Jun 24, 2008, 8:40 AM
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Those things look like they are made out of a coat hanger!


chossmonkey


Jun 29, 2008, 7:21 PM
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vertical_planar wrote:
billcoe_ wrote:
* The Uiaa link Vertical Planer shows does not exclude or show a TWISTED bolt, but a different version, not twisted and with extremely short threads, that has the X on it. That is not to say that the twisted version is UIAA approved, but I'd climb and fall on them all day long based on the 2 independent parties semi-unofficial testing.

But that's me.

dude since you seem to prefer unoffical info here's a piece of it:
The sketch was added in the UIAA standard specifically to indicate the unsuitability of the Argolis bolts.

Take it or leave it, your pick
Are you sure it isn't specifically for the unsutability of the thousands of Buler bolts (in the drawing) in use all over the world?


USnavy


Jul 3, 2008, 8:38 AM
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bigo


Jul 4, 2008, 9:31 AM
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In reply to:
I do not believe those are not UIAA certified

So do you think the UIAA certifies these bolts or not?

Also, the sketch indicating 'no multi-strand bolts' is only referenced in section 2.2.4 - "bolts in coastal environments". It would be an extrapolation to say that the UIAA doesn't certify a multi strand bolt under any circumstances based on the above reference. It may be that the UIAA would certify a multy strand bolt in an inland environment.


(This post was edited by bigo on Jul 14, 2008, 10:15 AM)


sungam


Jul 26, 2008, 9:25 AM
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j_ung wrote:
stymingersfink wrote:
gunkiemike wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
I like the idea that they are both screw and hanger as one piece where you could just screw them in to a hole and rap if the hole is deep enough on a SOL situation where you got no drill kit.

You still need the glue. And 24 hours to wait.

Or maybe you think these are for ICE CLIMBING...yea, that's explains your confused replies.
I wonder how the hole in the rock he's going to screw them into (without a drill kit) ended up being found in just the right place, never mind being just the right SIZE.

Majid M.O.: Talk out of your ass, then backpedal, qualify and re-qualify when you're called out. Resist being "wrong" at all costs. That way, even when you're right, people don't believe you.
Oh noes, dude!
Now he's gunna think you're stalking him and he'll start a thread about putting his angry snake in your stick-hole!!!!


sungam


Jul 26, 2008, 9:26 AM
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stymingersfink wrote:
gunkiemike wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
I like the idea that they are both screw and hanger as one piece where you could just screw them in to a hole and rap if the hole is deep enough on a SOL situation where you got no drill kit.

You still need the glue. And 24 hours to wait.

Or maybe you think these are for ICE CLIMBING...yea, that's explains your confused replies.
I wonder how the hole in the rock he's going to screw them into (without a drill kit) ended up being found in just the right place, never mind being just the right SIZE.
Well, if he get's someone else to drill a hole right next to his armchair, he'll be able to use it 24/7


sungam


Jul 26, 2008, 9:26 AM
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shockabuku wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
of course I would leave a note next to it that says " this SOL rap bolt was placed by Majid and do not use it or you will die".

I think you could just leave a note that said "Majid" and that would be good enough!Wink
Now this thread is just full of funny shit!


JimTitt


Aug 8, 2008, 12:21 AM
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As manufacturer of these bolts I would like to clarify a few points.

There are none of these bolts in Kalymnos.

There are 2620 of these fitted in the Argolis and a few other locations in Greece. These have a larger eye than we currently produce. The eye size was reduced as it was seen that inexperienced climbers tended to grab the bolt rather than concentrate on climbing the route and I did not wish to encourage "moral weakness". The bolts with a smaller eye in Katafyki Ravine were made and installed by an Austrian climber.

The bolts were tested in 2000 to EN959 by an independent testing laboratory in Italy and passed but at that time I had no plans to sell them.

The UIAA do not certify products. They allow products to carry the UIAA Safety Label if they are certified by an approved testing laboratory as meeting their standards and on receipt of a yearly fee (currently €1000).

The UIAA Safety Label is considered an irrelevance by rock anchor manufacturers, no manufacturer has applied for the label for a glue-in or bolt-in bolt under the new or old standard.
You can use the search facility on the UIAA website to obtain a list of products conforming to UIAA123. It is extremely short.

The UIAA standard 123 which is referred to was a draft version posted on their website in error (don´t ask!) and will be removed in September.
From the UIAA, 23-06-2008:-
"Sorry, we have not yet update on the website the UIAA Standards on Rock Anchors. In the next new version the requirements you mention will be withdrawn. The new version will be on the website after our general meeting in September in Prag. Note that in this new version the only difference between UIAA 123 and EN 959:2007 (new version) will the requirements on 4.1.Materials, where UIAA 123 will require just stainless steel has it was specified in the previous version EN 959:1996. best regards , Jean-Franck Charlet."
If you wish to confirm this you can mail to safetylabel@uiaa.ch

Bolt Products twisted leg bolts have been independently tested to EN959:2007 by the worlds leading test laboratory, TÜV Sud in Munich. This is also the only UIAA approved test facility for rock anchors. The tests were performed by Dr Volker Kron, leader of the sports equipment testing division and member of the UIAA Safety Commision.
The smallest bolt we sell (6mm rod X 80mm long) was tested using polyester with a cure time of 40 minutes. Axial load was 30kN, radial 34kN. The standard calls for 15kN and 25kN.
If anyone would like a copy of the test report then feel free to mail me, or you may independently search the TÜV open archive to read it.

As has been pointed out Rick Weber has been unable to extract his test bolts, additionally independent tests by the British Mountaineering Council have had the same result in that they have been unable to pull out any of their series of test bolts. This speaks for itself.

We claim to manufacture the strongest bolts in the world and for good reason. Currently our best axial pull (straight out) is 102,8kN (23,109 lbf) for an 8mm rod Sea Water series bolt made from 1:4462 duplex stainless steel, tested in granite using polyester.

Some customers are happy with 6mm rod, others prefer 8mm, the ratio of bolts produced is around 40:60. We experimentally produced a 4mm rod bolt which passed EN959 but even I thought it was scary!

Bolt Products twisted leg bolts received the 2008 European Outdoor Industry Silver Award for innovation in climbing equipment at the OutDoor Exhibition in Freidrichshaven. The link is http://www.ifdesign.de/beitragsdetails_d.html?beitrag_id=42037


Jim Titt
Bolt Products, Germany


chossmonkey


Aug 8, 2008, 4:42 AM
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^^Clicky^^


chossmonkey


Aug 8, 2008, 4:47 AM
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Thanks for posting Jim.


Is there a N.A. distributer? I read something about Rick wanting someone down at the Red to be the distributer. Has this happened or do these bolts need to be ordered and shipped from Europe still?


JimTitt


Aug 8, 2008, 10:24 AM
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No, we still don´t have a distributor and have to ship individual orders to the U.S. which is not really ideal, not so much the shipping time which is around 10 days but the cost for smaller orders. I have talked with a few companies but got no real response so if you know anyone I would be very interested.

Jim


stymingersfink


Aug 8, 2008, 10:28 AM
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JimTitt wrote:
No, we still don´t have a distributor and have to ship individual orders to the U.S. which is not really ideal, not so much the shipping time which is around 10 days but the cost for smaller orders. I have talked with a few companies but got no real response so if you know anyone I would be very interested.

Jim
Question: On an average annual basis, how many of those things total do you ship to the N.A continent?


Wavebolt


Oct 26, 2011, 11:23 AM
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stymingersfink wrote:
JimTitt wrote:
No, we still don´t have a distributor and have to ship individual orders to the U.S. which is not really ideal, not so much the shipping time which is around 10 days but the cost for smaller orders. I have talked with a few companies but got no real response so if you know anyone I would be very interested.

Jim
Question: On an average annual basis, how many of those things total do you ship to the N.A continent?

Sorry to revive an old thread, but Wave Bolts (http://www.wavebolt.com) are a new and superior alternative to all other glue in bolt designs. Three major advantages: unlike all other designs they will not slide out of a hole before the adhesive sets, they are made in the US and ready to ship, and they are less expensive than others! Check out the website for more info.


JimTitt


Oct 27, 2011, 12:14 AM
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Wavebolt wrote:

Sorry to revive an old thread, but Wave Bolts (http://www.wavebolt.com) are a new and superior alternative to all other glue in bolt designs. Three major advantages: unlike all other designs they will not slide out of a hole before the adhesive sets, they are made in the US and ready to ship, and they are less expensive than others! Check out the website for more info.

Bolt Products Twisted Leg Bolts are interference fit for the last 20mm before the eye to prevent them sliding out. They have been like this for more than 10 years.
They also have considerably higher dry (no glue) extraction resistance than Wavebolts in both radial and axial testing.

Before making advertising claims one is well advised to check, incorrect claims reduce the credibility of the company and its products. That you consider your bolts `the best´is natural but others may for example think that the SeaWater series of bolts we manufacture from 1.4462 Duplex stainless steel are superior in both strength (100kN) and corrosion resistance.

Jim Titt
Bolt Products


Wavebolt


Oct 27, 2011, 3:22 AM
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JimTitt wrote:
Wavebolt wrote:

Sorry to revive an old thread, but Wave Bolts (http://www.wavebolt.com) are a new and superior alternative to all other glue in bolt designs. Three major advantages: unlike all other designs they will not slide out of a hole before the adhesive sets, they are made in the US and ready to ship, and they are less expensive than others! Check out the website for more info.

Bolt Products Twisted Leg Bolts are interference fit for the last 20mm before the eye to prevent them sliding out. They have been like this for more than 10 years.
They also have considerably higher dry (no glue) extraction resistance than Wavebolts in both radial and axial testing.

Before making advertising claims one is well advised to check, incorrect claims reduce the credibility of the company and its products. That you consider your bolts `the best´is natural but others may for example think that the SeaWater series of bolts we manufacture from 1.4462 Duplex stainless steel are superior in both strength (100kN) and corrosion resistance.

Jim Titt
Bolt Products

Jim,
Your bolts are great, represent a significant advancement over other company's designs, and in fact I have used many over the last few years. However, we do believe our product to be superior to yours, especially in the three claims I made in the above post. I have placed more than one hundred of your bolts just in steep routes and roofs (and many more on slabs), and not once did I have one bolt stay in the rock on its own prior to the adhesive setting or without putting tape over it or some other trick. Certainly I could not clip into into immediately after placement to 'stay in' to the wall. Wave Bolts do this with ease. Second, we feel it is an advantage - for the US market at least - that Wave Bolts are made in the USA and are ready to ship. This leads to my third claim that Wave Bolts are less expensive than other similar products. I have heard that you have been extremely generous with donations and special pricing, but any retail pricing that I have ever seen is more expensive than our price (and ours are substantially less expensive than other companies).

There is no doubt that your SeaWater series would return higher strength ratings than the results we have seen with Wave Bolts. However, it is not an "apples to apples" comparison. From what I can tell, your SeaWater bolts would be a better comparison to our 5/8th inch bolt, which we have not been able to test anywhere near its limits because we simply do not have access to strong enough testing equipment. Note that I did make any specific claims about direct strength comparisons, because at the high numbers that both of our products would yield the strength is just as much if not more affected by the adhesive and medium (type of rock, etc.) than the actual piece of metal in the hole.

So, to be clear, I did not mean to attack you or your product. From what I can tell it appears you aren't even trying to be a major "player" in the US market. And as I said, I think your products are better than those offered by the standard companies. However, I think Wave Bolts have advantages over yours, and therefore are superior.


JimTitt


Oct 27, 2011, 4:02 AM
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patto


Oct 27, 2011, 4:21 AM
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JimTitt wrote:
Normally companies discuss matters privately since there are considerable disadvatages in doing this publicly,

I think due to this reason. Both of you should be restrained in further posting.


For what its worth I personally think previous posts by both JimTitt and Wavebolt were well crafted and endeared respect towards the poster (and thus their product). It would be a pity to see thing change if open disagreements continue.


(It should be noted though that I don't think consumers are naive enough to believe on face value alone, self proclamations that one's own product is the best, better or superior. )


JimTitt


Oct 27, 2011, 5:36 AM
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Well put and thanks.

I have been in personal contact with Wavebolt and for this reason have deleted my previous post. I believe we can continue to co-exist and mutually prosper in the future and I´m happy to say if I ever get the opportunity I will be pleased to fall off onto one of their bolts in the full anticipation it will hold even my weight!

Jim


Partner philbox
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Oct 27, 2011, 2:19 PM
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I support what patto says and I also support the resolution that Jim Titt has brokered. Nice work all.


rtwilli4


Oct 27, 2011, 3:38 PM
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Nice work all?

I don't support what's gone on here at all. Wavebolt came on this site and spammed an old post, making a direct claim that their product was better. What's worse, the poster claimed not to have been attacking JT. Yea... right. Then why did he search out this old post and say that his product was better than Jim's? It's unprofessional, and disrespectful.


shotwell


Oct 28, 2011, 10:18 AM
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rtwilli4 wrote:
Nice work all?

I don't support what's gone on here at all. Wavebolt came on this site and spammed an old post, making a direct claim that their product was better. What's worse, the poster claimed not to have been attacking JT. Yea... right. Then why did he search out this old post and say that his product was better than Jim's? It's unprofessional, and disrespectful.

Worse yet, the dry fit testing that Isaac claimed ONLY the Wavebolt could have is quoted for the Titt bolt in this thread. Not classy at all. The Wavebolt and Titt bolt are both great products. That said, Isaac's advertising has determined what I will spend my money on.


mattm


Nov 17, 2011, 9:46 AM
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shotwell wrote:
rtwilli4 wrote:
Nice work all?

I don't support what's gone on here at all. Wavebolt came on this site and spammed an old post, making a direct claim that their product was better. What's worse, the poster claimed not to have been attacking JT. Yea... right. Then why did he search out this old post and say that his product was better than Jim's? It's unprofessional, and disrespectful.

Worse yet, the dry fit testing that Isaac claimed ONLY the Wavebolt could have is quoted for the Titt bolt in this thread. Not classy at all. The Wavebolt and Titt bolt are both great products. That said, Isaac's advertising has determined what I will spend my money on.
Gotta 3rd the above comments. I'm disappointed in how Wave Bolt has gone about "introducing" their product to market. I've personally interacted with Jim via email (he was helping me with a garage project of mine. I think he knew I'd find the work a PITA and just buy more of his bolts.) Jim's a class act in my book. WaveBolt has, in contrast, gone about it's business in a less than classy way.

I posted a review of BOTH bolts here:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2549307#2549307

To be frank, it's a bit disingenuous for WaveBolt to claim that the Titt bolt falls out without getting into specifics. Particularly when, as a manufacturer, they SHOULD know the specifics. What I mean is a Titt Bolt is made for a 12mm (euro standard) hole. It WILL have a friction fit when used with a hole it was designed for (you need a 12mm bit as Jim pointed out. In the US of course, we will likely use a 1/2in bit (12.7mm) which the Titt bolt does not have an interference fit with. Let's compare apple to apples as WaveBolt suggests.

If you read my review, it's also clear that Titt bolts DO have a US distributor whom I've purchased from on numerous occasions.


(This post was edited by mattm on Nov 18, 2011, 7:55 PM)


billcoe_


Nov 18, 2011, 3:23 PM
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I'd rather see the debate publicly occur. In fact, we all benefit from the reduced prices and improved features that competition brings.

See?




LOL! Seriously, thanks to all for the discourse.


Kinobi


Dec 16, 2011, 12:20 PM
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Interesting topic.

OT:
I am a climber since 20 years.
I bolt since 20 years.
I sell bolts hangers (not in the USA) since 5 years.

I am strongly against glue ins, simply because they are a hassle to place.. The misplacement factor is very high.
But beside that... I took my old 10 years draws and pulled them. They all broke at 17 kN.
I wonder what a glue in, as strong as 30 kN is made for, if most of draws, break at 20 kN.
Hey, my stainless hangers broke at minumum 29 kN, but still, what are they made for that strong if 20 kN will be more than plenty...
Ciao
E


(This post was edited by Kinobi on Dec 16, 2011, 12:30 PM)


acorneau


Dec 16, 2011, 1:59 PM
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Kinobi wrote:
I am strongly against glue ins, simply because they are a hassle to place.. The misplacement factor is very high.
But beside that... I took my old 10 years draws and pulled them. They all broke at 17 kN.
I wonder what a glue in, as strong as 30 kN is made for, if most of draws, break at 20 kN.
Hey, my stainless hangers broke at minumum 29 kN, but still, what are they made for that strong if 20 kN will be more than plenty...
Ciao
E


It's not necessarily the one-time pull strength of a hanger, but the repeated abuse it can take before becoming deformed and/or weakened.

In my local climbing gym we have some nice beefy Fixe hangers and a few thinner off-brand hangers. All the Fixe hangers are in great shape and look exactly as they did when purchased 10+ years ago.

The thinner/newer hangers have all bent and started to loose their shape, causing many of them to rotate downward and orient the draw perpendicular to the wall instead of flat against it.

Sure, a lot of hardware we use is much stronger than it needs to be for a single fall, but will it keep it's shape and keeping working over the long haul? That's the real question.


Kinobi


Dec 16, 2011, 10:42 PM
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Yes. I may agree with you.
Decent gear last forever.
Crap gear last less.
But, what's the sense to argue about "strong" or "stronger" or "strongest" when is just useless in real world and with repeated multiple many falls?
Ciao,
E


acorneau


Dec 17, 2011, 5:55 PM
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Kinobi wrote:
Yes. I may agree with you.
Decent gear last forever.
Crap gear last less.
But, what's the sense to argue about "strong" or "stronger" or "strongest" when is just useless in real world and with repeated multiple many falls?
Ciao,
E


Obviously no gear lasts forever, and when it fails it may just hurt or kill someone.


Kinobi


Dec 17, 2011, 11:08 PM
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Almost forever.
We took out some bolt hangers that were placed about 21 years ago. The more suspect had extimate about 250000 falls on that hanger. At least.
You fall with the hanger about 10 cm below the foot.
It had still 17 kN strenght. No idea of the strenght of the bolt. About 9 meters from ground.
Ciao,
R


USnavy


Dec 18, 2011, 3:26 AM
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Kinobi wrote:
Almost forever.
We took out some bolt hangers that were placed about 21 years ago. The more suspect had extimate about 250000 falls on that hanger. At least.
You fall with the hanger about 10 cm below the foot.
It had still 17 kN strenght. No idea of the strenght of the bolt. About 9 meters from ground.
Ciao,
R
I have seen a quick link deteriorate to the point of needing replacement in only 30 days. We have had grade 316 stainless steel shackles fail in 11 months. I have seen fixed draws that are only one year old with so much wear that it was literally unsafe to use them anymore. Nothing lasts forever, or anywhere near it. Hangers have an exceptional life span in non-corrosive environments, but the majority of other climbing gear will wear at a noticeable rate if its used regularly.

I also question that your hanger caught over 250,000 falls. Assuming the route was climbed every single day of every year across that 21 year span, we are talking about an average of 33 lead falls per day. Even on a classic trade route at a major sport crag, thats way above average. Even if we are talking about a gym, I still very strongly doubt you have 250,000 falls on any hanger.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Dec 22, 2011, 1:02 AM)


Kinobi


Dec 18, 2011, 5:29 AM
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USnavy wrote:
I also question that your hanger caught over 250,000 falls. Assuming the route was climbed every single day of every year across that 21 year span, we are talking about an average of 33 lead falls per day. Even on a classic trade route at a major sport crag, thats way above average. Even if we are talking about a gym, I still very strongly doubt you have 250,000 falls on any hanger.

Sorry, zero counting wrong. 25000.
For the season of the cliff, we calculate about 10 falls a day.
Average.
Still, pretty high number. Hanger were steel Kong. Not SS.
Best,
E


mattm


Dec 21, 2011, 7:36 AM
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Kinobi wrote:
Interesting topic.

OT:
I am a climber since 20 years.
I bolt since 20 years.
I sell bolts hangers (not in the USA) since 5 years.
What hangers?

In reply to:
I am strongly against glue ins, simply because they are a hassle to place.. The misplacement factor is very high.
So you're against Glue Ins because they're a hassle to YOU? I've found that if you get your systems dialed, they're only marginally more difficult to place with most of your time difference found in cleaning the hole properly. The misplacement factor is slightly higher but those using glue ins probably know what they're doing and have done their homework. Misplacements with other bolts can occur as well and given that most people just yank on a bolt to tighten rather that using a torque wrench I'd argue the misplacement factor isn't as different as you think...

In reply to:
I wonder what a glue in, as strong as 30 kN is made for, if most of draws, break at 20 kN.
Hey, my stainless hangers broke at minumum 29 kN, but still, what are they made for that strong if 20 kN will be more than plenty...
Tests were done with smaller glue ins by JimT that were smaller and still met the UIAA minimum but people didn't like. I'd guess they "looked" weak to people and hence were rejected. As USnavy points out, gear exposed to the elements that does not get replaced regularly needs to have higher safety factors (strength) than your webbing that you can swap out as needed. Gear breaks. Biners snap, webbing cuts etc etc. You need to over engineer the fixed pro to account for such X-Factors.

The biggest thing you're missing here is that glue ins work in softer rock better than anything else. In softer rock NOTHING is stronger than a glue in.

Why do you even care that the bolts are much stronger? What negative is there from having them be massively strong? It's not like you're carrying the bolts with you on each lead.


Kinobi


Dec 21, 2011, 1:08 PM
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I have some questions for you:

a) how many glue-ins have you placed? Equipping, not re-equipping.
a.1) have you ever tried to equip a route with Glue ins in a overhanging scenario?
b) have you ever seen 1 (one) EN 959 anchor broke in a real situation? If yes, where and when. EN 959 means 10 mm stainless bolt and stainless hanger. Try to avoid examples on places next to the sea, where the kind of stainless is the problem.
c) this is easy: how many glue ins have you seen poorly placed (moving)? 10, 100, 1000?

I believe that "overbuilding" is just overbuilding. Yes, right, from USA, I expect you have a different perspective than European.
Maybe you are not aware that there area very different kind of bolts. What we use in climbing is the cheapest thing a human being can buy, which might not be the best pick for the specific rock.
To see EN 959 norm you can go here.
http://kinobi.forumup.it/viewtopic.php?t=12&mforum=kinobi
You need to be registered to see links and photos.

Ciao,
E


(This post was edited by Kinobi on Dec 21, 2011, 1:11 PM)


mattm


Dec 21, 2011, 1:58 PM
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Kinobi wrote:
I have some questions for you:

a) how many glue-ins have you placed? Equipping, not re-equipping.
a.1) have you ever tried to equip a route with Glue ins in a overhanging scenario?
b) have you ever seen 1 (one) EN 959 anchor broke in a real situation? If yes, where and when. EN 959 means 10 mm stainless bolt and stainless hanger. Try to avoid examples on places next to the sea, where the kind of stainless is the problem.
c) this is easy: how many glue ins have you seen poorly placed (moving)? 10, 100, 1000?

I believe that "overbuilding" is just overbuilding. Yes, right, from USA, I expect you have a different perspective than European.
Maybe you are not aware that there area very different kind of bolts. What we use in climbing is the cheapest thing a human being can buy, which might not be the best pick for the specific rock.
To see EN 959 norm you can go here.
http://kinobi.forumup.it/viewtopic.php?t=12&mforum=kinobi
You need to be registered to see links and photos.

Ciao,
E

Emanuele,

Regardless of what I've done (you have no doubt done more) what is your point?

You don't like glue ins because they require more work? Ok.
I do not mind the extra work.

you don't like them because they are stronger than they need to be? Why is that BAD?

I use many different types of bolts. I choose the appropriate style needed for the project. I use through bolts (wedge) , 5-pieces and glue ins.

You seem to want to make a point but have not made it yet.


kennoyce


Dec 21, 2011, 2:31 PM
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Kinobi wrote:
I have some questions for you:

a) how many glue-ins have you placed? Equipping, not re-equipping.
a.1) have you ever tried to equip a route with Glue ins in a overhanging scenario?
b) have you ever seen 1 (one) EN 959 anchor broke in a real situation? If yes, where and when. EN 959 means 10 mm stainless bolt and stainless hanger. Try to avoid examples on places next to the sea, where the kind of stainless is the problem.
c) this is easy: how many glue ins have you seen poorly placed (moving)? 10, 100, 1000?

I just wanted to quickly answer your questions.

a) I've only ever placed 1 glue in and that was just because I wanted to give it a try.
a.1) no, it was on vertical rock.
b) no, I've never seen a 10mm (3/8") stainless bolt or hanger break
c) 0, I've never seen a single glue in that was moving.

I would like to add a d) being how many poorly placed mechanical bolts have you seen (i.e. spinners) and that number is certainly in the hundreds. This doesn't mean that the bolts were placed poorly to begin with, but with use they loosen up and become spinners (which reduces the strength of the placement), of course you can always argue that they can just be tightened down again, but then the chance of overtorquing them just becomes greater and greater.

Personally I bolt with mechanical bolts and hangers because of the convenience but I do think that glue-ins are vastly superior when installed correctly.

On another note, I don't think that either the tit-bolt or the wave-bolt is superior to the other, they both have their pros and cons, but I would certainly buy the tit-bolts over the wave bolts simply because of the way that wave-bolt has advertised themselves (and not just in this thread).


Kinobi


Dec 21, 2011, 10:39 PM
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mattm wrote:
...

Ok.
My point is that mechanical bolts are overall better than glue ins. Their advantages pass the avantages of glue ins.
Such as price, convenience to place, safety in placement, easier to remove/hide, you place then "once" and it's done almost forever. Not to say, that if for some reasons (spinning) you need to maintainance something, you can, while with Glue Ins you can do nothing

Of course I would make more money if I would sell also Glue ins, but they are not as good as Mechanical bolts for the points above.
Bottom line, once I get to know about one (1) EN 959 anchor broken or pulled, I will may be change my mind.

Just in places where I have been, to let you know the scale of the issue:
- Albega, about 250 Glue ins moving. It's in a lot german websites.
- Sardinia, Giardino Gallico and Cala Fuili, about a dozen.
- Arco Massone classica. This is interesting. The place has been rebolted by Goverment by certified alpine guides including one guide that has placed something like 3500 anchors. They placed some glue ins with Hilti Glue. In the morning they checked and one cardridge of glue did not work. The other glue did work, and had serial number one digit higher than previous glue: which means either packed one nano second before, o on the following batch of producton, They called the technicial of Hilti,he drove there, and he openend the arms and said "no idea". Lessons learned: nobody know if the placement is good as long as you check.

Ciao, and Marry Chiristman to all of you.
E


acorneau


Dec 22, 2011, 7:23 AM
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Kinobi wrote:
Bottom line, once I get to know about one (1) EN 959 anchor broken or pulled, I will may be change my mind.

A climber died in Australia when a bolt ripped out in a fall and his rope was cut on a sharp rock:

http://www.onsight.com.au/news-blog/articles/36/nicks-accident-what-happened

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQt4AbQmJjE

Unsure


Oh, and here's a Ushba titanium glue-in that broke:

http://www.erockonline.com/...amp;hl=lonesome+dove


(This post was edited by acorneau on Dec 22, 2011, 7:30 AM)


Kinobi


Dec 22, 2011, 7:49 AM
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Sorry.
They were 8 mm bolts double expansion.
Not En 959.
I was very clear in my post.
It is anyway intersting to evaluate the dinamics of accident and the kind of rock. And wonder, why nobody did opened a route there before.
Shit happens, and the issue were not the bolts.
Ciao,
E


(This post was edited by Kinobi on Dec 22, 2011, 7:50 AM)


mattm


Dec 22, 2011, 12:56 PM
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First, I hope none of this sounds argumentative. I am not trying to be disparaging. Good, well thought out discussion on anchors is important. You have made some points below so now we can discuss them.

Kinobi wrote:
My point is that mechanical bolts are overall better than glue ins. Their advantages pass the avantages of glue ins.
Such as price, convenience to place, safety in placement, easier to remove/hide, you place then "once" and it's done almost forever.
I'll try and hit them point by point.

Price: I depends on what you're comparing them too. In the USA, both Bühler-Style bolts cost around $5.50. Adding in other glue costs it probably works out to $6.50 when you are efficient. That's for SS in either 304(A2) or 316(A4).
304SS QUALITY wedge bolts can be found for $1 but that's not common. Add a SS hanger ($3) and you're at $4. So a wedge bolt CAN beat a glue-in on price.
SS Powers 5-Pieces START at $4.60 and go up from there. So with a $3 hanger the glue in is already cheaper. In softer rock where we'll use a 1/2in x 3.75in 5-piece you're talking $8.80 + $3 hanger = $11.80 so TWICE the cost of a Glue In. Ouch. So price wise, only the Wedge bolt combo can beat a glue-in most of the time.

Convenience: Not going to argue here, Wedges and 5-Pieces are easier to place (wedges being the easiest). Like I said before though, depending on WHAT type of bolting you're doing you can get pretty good at glue-ins.

safety in placement: Not sure how you would qualify this one. Well placed in good rock, ANY of the bolts listed will be fine.

easier to remove/hide, you place then "once" and it's done almost forever 5-Pieces are "easier" to remove and/or hide. In NA, there's a big emphasis on trying to re-use the same hole if at all possible. Only the 5-Piece (or Triplex) makes this possible. Both the Wedge and Glue-In are pretty much non-removeable. Like you said though, with proper SS (A2 and A4) that MIGHT not be a big deal. I haven't seen any lifespan studies on 304 or 316SS though.

In reply to:
Not to say, that if for some reasons (spinning) you need to maintainance something, you can, while with Glue Ins you can do nothing
Both Wedges and 5-Pieces can have spinners. In fact, there's been some recent talk about 5-Pieces being more spinner prone and more compromised when they do spin than the wedge. That's over on ST somewhere...
Can you be more specific about loose or spinning Glue Ins? Are you talking about the older style SINGLE shaft bolts like Fixe or Petzl make (and can certainly spin if not notched and recessed) or more modern Bühler style bolts with two legs that help prevent rotation? I don't use single shaft glue ins for these reasons. ONLY Bühler style for me (Titt or Wave).


In reply to:
Of course I would make more money if I would sell also Glue ins, but they are not as good as Mechanical bolts for the points above.
Bottom line, once I get to know about one (1) EN 959 anchor broken or pulled, I will may be change my mind.
Are we talking about a PROPERLY installed EN 959 anchor? One where it was torqued to spec with a proper hanger? If so then I think you KNOW that it's unlikely to occur. Now, if we're talking about failures of bolts that SHOULD have been installed correctly, but weren't, there are several (R&I 12/11 accident @ NRG). This could easily be the case for ANY bolt anchor though. A wedge installed in soft rock that doesn't reach torque. A 5-Piece that's OVER torqued and is dangerously close to shearing off (easy to do when 12 ft-lbs is a spec!) and Glue Ins where the glue isn't mixed right, hole cleaned etc. ALL of these bolts are dependent on a skilled installer to ensure they meet minimum standards.

Your hangers look pretty nice. Why the change to made in Austria vs Made in Italy? Hard for me to tell via Google Translate.



In reply to:
Just in places where I have been, to let you know the scale of the issue:
- Albega, about 250 Glue ins moving. It's in a lot german websites.
- Sardinia, Giardino Gallico and Cala Fuili, about a dozen.
- Arco Massone classica. This is interesting. The place has been rebolted by Goverment by certified alpine guides including one guide that has placed something like 3500 anchors. They placed some glue ins with Hilti Glue. In the morning they checked and one cardridge of glue did not work. The other glue did work, and had serial number one digit higher than previous glue: which means either packed one nano second before, o on the following batch of producton, They called the technicial of Hilti,he drove there, and he openend the arms and said "no idea". Lessons learned: nobody know if the placement is good as long as you check.

Obviously, there are issues with glue ins as well. Nothing is perfect. Are the loose bolts all single shaft? Was the Hilti Glue issue a mixing problem? Seems questionable that the Hilti rep would just SHRUG and say no idea. That's a MAJOR issue for a MAJOR manufacturer.


I think most of this boils down to THERE IS NO ONE ANSWER and quality discussions of the positives and negatives of each bolt solution are beneficial in the long run to the community as a whole.

Thanks for the chat Kinobi! Enjoy the holidays.


Kinobi


Dec 22, 2011, 10:52 PM
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Dear MattM,

I have no wish to convince anyone.
I have wish to educate equippers and climbers.
Equippers are the foundament of our sport.
Equippers and new openeres must be helped in any way and in any means by people selling gear.
Unfrortunately most bolting gear does it for profit.
As you find out my hangers, you can find out who I am, which is not important anyway. Selling this gear is less than 0.5% of my turnover: i do it for, fun not for money.
As a still high level climber and frequent equipper I sell most (and give out for free 10% of turnover) to equippers for NEW Routes.

In Europe my bolts plus hanger AISI 304 cost 2.5 euro VAT/ taxes included (Italy, is 21%). Which is about the same as my main competitor (RAUMER). Cost of Glue ins, without glue, is about the same, a bit more. You need to add glue.

But price is a minimal part of the deal. Once you equipp a route, if you do it in normal eviroment, and you use stainless gear, it's done forever. I faced that, at least in the routes I open, it's impratical, close to impossible, to use glue ins in "opening". A normal EN959 (bolt and hanger in Stainless) once placed decently, is plenty for a few generations of climbers. Glue ins are usually for RE-bolting of normal steel. So you need to calculate the cost of old and new gear. Glue isn, here, cost twice as much. And they stay a hassle to place.
Two holes, etc, are not a significant deal if everything is fixed the first time. There is no need of re-bolting.
Yes it cost more to bolt it once, but it's cheaper in the long run (not to say enviromental...)

If installation is NOT done properly, bolts or glue ins are a mess. It's easier to install properly a bolt than a glue ins. We do not use in Europe the 5 pieces units. Basically for price reasons or heritage. I feel that also rock has its part.

The difference between the two hangers, is that the former one is not produced anymore since 3 years.
And...
The new one is thiker, stronger, EN959, tested one each 500 produced, bigger, production batch numbered.
With former producer I faced some "issues" in quality (most of old were AISI 316) and "commercial exclusivity". With new producer I feel I offer a better product at the same price.

Glue ins psinner were Fixe and RAUMER (yes old style).
Nobody uses PEtzl here since nobody can afford them.

Ciao, Merry Xmas, we are bolting a 150 routes places may be I post a photo...
E


Kinobi


Dec 23, 2011, 7:44 AM
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Just in case.
It was posted a couple of days ago.
E
http://www.pukli.it/EXTRA/Attenzione.htm


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