Could these be the wave of the future? They claim to be much stronger than other designs. Opinions?

They look great for emergency rap if you have no bolt kit or if you reach a rap station where the rap bolts are missing and you got nothing else .

They look great for emergency rap if you have no bolt kit or if you reach a rap station where the rap bolts are missing and you got nothing else .

I think you could twist them in for a one time use without glue.

Really?
Why only one time?

There has been few times where I rap and missed the rap hanger or for some reasons the rap bolts were gone and I had to jug back up .A bolt/hanger like this would be a great tool cause you could twist it and rap on it.

of course I would leave a note next to it that says " this SOL rap bolt was placed by Majid and do not use it or you will die".

I think you could twist them in for a one time use without glue.

uhhh... wtf??

They have very impressive specs for pull out strength.

Here is a link to the actual bolt page http://www.bolt-products.com/ProtectionBolts.htm

And a pic of the bolts.

[image]http://www.bolt-products.com/images/6mmbolts.gif[/image]

Majid is kidding, the hole gets drilled oversized to accommodate the glue, there is no hole you would have a drill for to archive even a 1 time result of this holding. You need specifically engineered Construction Epoxy like the Hilty ty500 or the Ultrabond 1300. Simpson makes a 2 part epoxy you can get at home depot that has the specs as well. Hole cleanliness and sizing is critical! Furthermore, using Gorilla brand duct tape with an X cut in it for the Bueller bolt to fit in just to keep the glue in until it drys looks to be the way to go as well.

...

My biggest concern would be deformation on steeper routes, but I haven't heard of it being a problem.

I like the idea that they are both screw and hanger as one piece where you could just screw them in to a hole and rap if the hole is deep enough on a SOL situation where you got no drill kit.

You still need the glue. And 24 hours to wait.

Or maybe you think these are for ICE CLIMBING...yea, that's explains your confused replies.

Pull results from the Red...

http://www.redriverclimbing.com/...highlight=glue+bolts

j-

there is like 2500 installed in Kaylmos Greece with good results

I wonder how the hole in the rock he's going to screw them into (without a drill kit) ended up being found in just the right place, never mind being just the right SIZE.

Moreover, the latest UIAA standard on bolts and hangers specificaly states that these bolts are not certified and has a picture of these with a big X upon it.
Check your facts before sperading false information

of course I would leave a note next to it that says " this SOL rap bolt was placed by Majid and do not use it or you will die".

Absolutely not true. There is not a single bolt like these installed in Kalymnos. At least not one I am aware of after numerous visits in the island
Moreover, the latest UIAA standard on bolts and hangers specificaly states that these bolts are not certified and has a picture of these with a big X upon it.
Check your facts before sperading false information

do you know why that is, because there is no further description or reason why that design is xed out.

Whether they are UIAA certified yet is rather irrelevant. They are stronger than anything else on the market This is from their website, "All our products exceed the relevant European standard EN959 and are so certified."

Absolutely not true. There is not a single bolt like these installed in Kalymnos. At least not one I am aware of after numerous visits in the island
Moreover, the latest UIAA standard on bolts and hangers specificaly states that these bolts are not certified and has a picture of these with a big X upon it.
Check your facts before sperading false information

I too have misgivings about the South African tests, very small sample sizes, bad practice hole sizing (same size as anchor), insufficient cure time, oddly designed and undersize anchors. All they really demonstrated was that poor bolting leads to poor bolts. But I guess research has to start somewhere.

As for non-mixing epoxy, it is a pretty academic discussion. If you started sticking in a bolt and noticed that the glue wasn't mixing properly, you'd be a fool to continue.

The big dig anchor failures was attributed to creep, which is where a material is subjected to a constant high (eg. a significant percentage of its yield strength) load (and usually temperature but obviously not in the big dig case) which does not apply to climbing anchors.

A bolting colleague of mine just made an incredibly ingenious rig, its a modified set of (large) bolt cutters, he's added rollers onto the pivots of the bolt cutters allowing him to use it to both cut the 10mm stainless and neatly and repeatedly bend U bolts with a 50mm leg spacing, very quickly by hand. That still leaves the task of grinding, notching and washing the U bolts so its not quite the field deployable bolt factory it might first appear.


-Adam.

* The Uiaa link Vertical Planer shows does not exclude or show a TWISTED bolt, but a different version, not twisted and with extremely short threads, that has the X on it. That is not to say that the twisted version is UIAA approved, but I'd climb and fall on them all day long based on the 2 independent parties semi-unofficial testing.

But that's me.

dude since you seem to prefer unoffical info here's a piece of it:
The sketch was added in the UIAA standard specifically to indicate the unsuitability of the Argolis bolts.

Take it or leave it, your pick

I do not believe those are not UIAA certified

Majid M.O.: Talk out of your ass, then backpedal, qualify and re-qualify when you're called out. Resist being "wrong" at all costs. That way, even when you're right, people don't believe you.

I wonder how the hole in the rock he's going to screw them into (without a drill kit) ended up being found in just the right place, never mind being just the right SIZE.

I think you could just leave a note that said "Majid" and that would be good enough!

The link is http://www.ifdesign.de/...tml?beitrag_id=42037

No, we still don´t have a distributor and have to ship individual orders to the U.S. which is not really ideal, not so much the shipping time which is around 10 days but the cost for smaller orders. I have talked with a few companies but got no real response so if you know anyone I would be very interested.

Jim

Question: On an average annual basis, how many of those things total do you ship to the N.A continent?

Sorry to revive an old thread, but Wave Bolts (http://www.wavebolt.com) are a new and superior alternative to all other glue in bolt designs. Three major advantages: unlike all other designs they will not slide out of a hole before the adhesive sets, they are made in the US and ready to ship, and they are less expensive than others! Check out the website for more info.

Bolt Products Twisted Leg Bolts are interference fit for the last 20mm before the eye to prevent them sliding out. They have been like this for more than 10 years.
They also have considerably higher dry (no glue) extraction resistance than Wavebolts in both radial and axial testing.

Before making advertising claims one is well advised to check, incorrect claims reduce the credibility of the company and its products. That you consider your bolts `the best´is natural but others may for example think that the SeaWater series of bolts we manufacture from 1.4462 Duplex stainless steel are superior in both strength (100kN) and corrosion resistance.

Jim Titt
Bolt Products

Normally companies discuss matters privately since there are considerable disadvatages in doing this publicly,

Nice work all?

I don't support what's gone on here at all. Wavebolt came on this site and spammed an old post, making a direct claim that their product was better. What's worse, the poster claimed not to have been attacking JT. Yea... right. Then why did he search out this old post and say that his product was better than Jim's? It's unprofessional, and disrespectful.

Worse yet, the dry fit testing that Isaac claimed ONLY the Wavebolt could have is quoted for the Titt bolt in this thread. Not classy at all. The Wavebolt and Titt bolt are both great products. That said, Isaac's advertising has determined what I will spend my money on.

I am strongly against glue ins, simply because they are a hassle to place.. The misplacement factor is very high.
But beside that... I took my old 10 years draws and pulled them. They all broke at 17 kN.
I wonder what a glue in, as strong as 30 kN is made for, if most of draws, break at 20 kN.
Hey, my stainless hangers broke at minumum 29 kN, but still, what are they made for that strong if 20 kN will be more than plenty...
Ciao
E

Yes. I may agree with you.
Decent gear last forever.
Crap gear last less.
But, what's the sense to argue about "strong" or "stronger" or "strongest" when is just useless in real world and with repeated multiple many falls?
Ciao,
E

Almost forever.
We took out some bolt hangers that were placed about 21 years ago. The more suspect had extimate about 250000 falls on that hanger. At least.
You fall with the hanger about 10 cm below the foot.
It had still 17 kN strenght. No idea of the strenght of the bolt. About 9 meters from ground.
Ciao,
R

I also question that your hanger caught over 250,000 falls. Assuming the route was climbed every single day of every year across that 21 year span, we are talking about an average of 33 lead falls per day. Even on a classic trade route at a major sport crag, thats way above average. Even if we are talking about a gym, I still very strongly doubt you have 250,000 falls on any hanger.

Interesting topic.

OT:
I am a climber since 20 years.
I bolt since 20 years.
I sell bolts hangers (not in the USA) since 5 years.

I am strongly against glue ins, simply because they are a hassle to place.. The misplacement factor is very high.

I wonder what a glue in, as strong as 30 kN is made for, if most of draws, break at 20 kN.
Hey, my stainless hangers broke at minumum 29 kN, but still, what are they made for that strong if 20 kN will be more than plenty...

I have some questions for you:

a) how many glue-ins have you placed? Equipping, not re-equipping.
a.1) have you ever tried to equip a route with Glue ins in a overhanging scenario?
b) have you ever seen 1 (one) EN 959 anchor broke in a real situation? If yes, where and when. EN 959 means 10 mm stainless bolt and stainless hanger. Try to avoid examples on places next to the sea, where the kind of stainless is the problem.
c) this is easy: how many glue ins have you seen poorly placed (moving)? 10, 100, 1000?

I believe that "overbuilding" is just overbuilding. Yes, right, from USA, I expect you have a different perspective than European.
Maybe you are not aware that there area very different kind of bolts. What we use in climbing is the cheapest thing a human being can buy, which might not be the best pick for the specific rock.
To see EN 959 norm you can go here.
http://kinobi.forumup.it/viewtopic.php?t=12&mforum=kinobi
You need to be registered to see links and photos.

Ciao,
E

I have some questions for you:

a) how many glue-ins have you placed? Equipping, not re-equipping.
a.1) have you ever tried to equip a route with Glue ins in a overhanging scenario?
b) have you ever seen 1 (one) EN 959 anchor broke in a real situation? If yes, where and when. EN 959 means 10 mm stainless bolt and stainless hanger. Try to avoid examples on places next to the sea, where the kind of stainless is the problem.
c) this is easy: how many glue ins have you seen poorly placed (moving)? 10, 100, 1000?

...

Bottom line, once I get to know about one (1) EN 959 anchor broken or pulled, I will may be change my mind.

My point is that mechanical bolts are overall better than glue ins. Their advantages pass the avantages of glue ins.
Such as price, convenience to place, safety in placement, easier to remove/hide, you place then "once" and it's done almost forever.

Not to say, that if for some reasons (spinning) you need to maintainance something, you can, while with Glue Ins you can do nothing

Of course I would make more money if I would sell also Glue ins, but they are not as good as Mechanical bolts for the points above.
Bottom line, once I get to know about one (1) EN 959 anchor broken or pulled, I will may be change my mind.

Just in places where I have been, to let you know the scale of the issue:
- Albega, about 250 Glue ins moving. It's in a lot german websites.
- Sardinia, Giardino Gallico and Cala Fuili, about a dozen.
- Arco Massone classica. This is interesting. The place has been rebolted by Goverment by certified alpine guides including one guide that has placed something like 3500 anchors. They placed some glue ins with Hilti Glue. In the morning they checked and one cardridge of glue did not work. The other glue did work, and had serial number one digit higher than previous glue: which means either packed one nano second before, o on the following batch of producton, They called the technicial of Hilti,he drove there, and he openend the arms and said "no idea". Lessons learned: nobody know if the placement is good as long as you check.