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JimTitt


Oct 27, 2011, 4:02 AM
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patto


Oct 27, 2011, 4:21 AM
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Re: [JimTitt] Twisted bolts [In reply to]
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JimTitt wrote:
Normally companies discuss matters privately since there are considerable disadvatages in doing this publicly,

I think due to this reason. Both of you should be restrained in further posting.


For what its worth I personally think previous posts by both JimTitt and Wavebolt were well crafted and endeared respect towards the poster (and thus their product). It would be a pity to see thing change if open disagreements continue.


(It should be noted though that I don't think consumers are naive enough to believe on face value alone, self proclamations that one's own product is the best, better or superior. )


JimTitt


Oct 27, 2011, 5:36 AM
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Re: [patto] Twisted bolts [In reply to]
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Well put and thanks.

I have been in personal contact with Wavebolt and for this reason have deleted my previous post. I believe we can continue to co-exist and mutually prosper in the future and I´m happy to say if I ever get the opportunity I will be pleased to fall off onto one of their bolts in the full anticipation it will hold even my weight!

Jim


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Oct 27, 2011, 2:19 PM
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Re: [JimTitt] Twisted bolts [In reply to]
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I support what patto says and I also support the resolution that Jim Titt has brokered. Nice work all.


rtwilli4


Oct 27, 2011, 3:38 PM
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Re: [philbox] Twisted bolts [In reply to]
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Nice work all?

I don't support what's gone on here at all. Wavebolt came on this site and spammed an old post, making a direct claim that their product was better. What's worse, the poster claimed not to have been attacking JT. Yea... right. Then why did he search out this old post and say that his product was better than Jim's? It's unprofessional, and disrespectful.


shotwell


Oct 28, 2011, 10:18 AM
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Re: [rtwilli4] Twisted bolts [In reply to]
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rtwilli4 wrote:
Nice work all?

I don't support what's gone on here at all. Wavebolt came on this site and spammed an old post, making a direct claim that their product was better. What's worse, the poster claimed not to have been attacking JT. Yea... right. Then why did he search out this old post and say that his product was better than Jim's? It's unprofessional, and disrespectful.

Worse yet, the dry fit testing that Isaac claimed ONLY the Wavebolt could have is quoted for the Titt bolt in this thread. Not classy at all. The Wavebolt and Titt bolt are both great products. That said, Isaac's advertising has determined what I will spend my money on.


mattm


Nov 17, 2011, 9:46 AM
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Re: [shotwell] Twisted bolts [In reply to]
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shotwell wrote:
rtwilli4 wrote:
Nice work all?

I don't support what's gone on here at all. Wavebolt came on this site and spammed an old post, making a direct claim that their product was better. What's worse, the poster claimed not to have been attacking JT. Yea... right. Then why did he search out this old post and say that his product was better than Jim's? It's unprofessional, and disrespectful.

Worse yet, the dry fit testing that Isaac claimed ONLY the Wavebolt could have is quoted for the Titt bolt in this thread. Not classy at all. The Wavebolt and Titt bolt are both great products. That said, Isaac's advertising has determined what I will spend my money on.
Gotta 3rd the above comments. I'm disappointed in how Wave Bolt has gone about "introducing" their product to market. I've personally interacted with Jim via email (he was helping me with a garage project of mine. I think he knew I'd find the work a PITA and just buy more of his bolts.) Jim's a class act in my book. WaveBolt has, in contrast, gone about it's business in a less than classy way.

I posted a review of BOTH bolts here:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2549307#2549307

To be frank, it's a bit disingenuous for WaveBolt to claim that the Titt bolt falls out without getting into specifics. Particularly when, as a manufacturer, they SHOULD know the specifics. What I mean is a Titt Bolt is made for a 12mm (euro standard) hole. It WILL have a friction fit when used with a hole it was designed for (you need a 12mm bit as Jim pointed out. In the US of course, we will likely use a 1/2in bit (12.7mm) which the Titt bolt does not have an interference fit with. Let's compare apple to apples as WaveBolt suggests.

If you read my review, it's also clear that Titt bolts DO have a US distributor whom I've purchased from on numerous occasions.


(This post was edited by mattm on Nov 18, 2011, 7:55 PM)


billcoe_


Nov 18, 2011, 3:23 PM
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Re: [mattm] Twisted bolts [In reply to]
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I'd rather see the debate publicly occur. In fact, we all benefit from the reduced prices and improved features that competition brings.

See?




LOL! Seriously, thanks to all for the discourse.


Kinobi


Dec 16, 2011, 12:20 PM
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Re: [patto] Twisted bolts [In reply to]
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Interesting topic.

OT:
I am a climber since 20 years.
I bolt since 20 years.
I sell bolts hangers (not in the USA) since 5 years.

I am strongly against glue ins, simply because they are a hassle to place.. The misplacement factor is very high.
But beside that... I took my old 10 years draws and pulled them. They all broke at 17 kN.
I wonder what a glue in, as strong as 30 kN is made for, if most of draws, break at 20 kN.
Hey, my stainless hangers broke at minumum 29 kN, but still, what are they made for that strong if 20 kN will be more than plenty...
Ciao
E


(This post was edited by Kinobi on Dec 16, 2011, 12:30 PM)


acorneau


Dec 16, 2011, 1:59 PM
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Re: [Kinobi] Twisted bolts [In reply to]
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Kinobi wrote:
I am strongly against glue ins, simply because they are a hassle to place.. The misplacement factor is very high.
But beside that... I took my old 10 years draws and pulled them. They all broke at 17 kN.
I wonder what a glue in, as strong as 30 kN is made for, if most of draws, break at 20 kN.
Hey, my stainless hangers broke at minumum 29 kN, but still, what are they made for that strong if 20 kN will be more than plenty...
Ciao
E


It's not necessarily the one-time pull strength of a hanger, but the repeated abuse it can take before becoming deformed and/or weakened.

In my local climbing gym we have some nice beefy Fixe hangers and a few thinner off-brand hangers. All the Fixe hangers are in great shape and look exactly as they did when purchased 10+ years ago.

The thinner/newer hangers have all bent and started to loose their shape, causing many of them to rotate downward and orient the draw perpendicular to the wall instead of flat against it.

Sure, a lot of hardware we use is much stronger than it needs to be for a single fall, but will it keep it's shape and keeping working over the long haul? That's the real question.


Kinobi


Dec 16, 2011, 10:42 PM
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Re: [acorneau] Twisted bolts [In reply to]
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Yes. I may agree with you.
Decent gear last forever.
Crap gear last less.
But, what's the sense to argue about "strong" or "stronger" or "strongest" when is just useless in real world and with repeated multiple many falls?
Ciao,
E


acorneau


Dec 17, 2011, 5:55 PM
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Re: [Kinobi] Twisted bolts [In reply to]
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Kinobi wrote:
Yes. I may agree with you.
Decent gear last forever.
Crap gear last less.
But, what's the sense to argue about "strong" or "stronger" or "strongest" when is just useless in real world and with repeated multiple many falls?
Ciao,
E


Obviously no gear lasts forever, and when it fails it may just hurt or kill someone.


Kinobi


Dec 17, 2011, 11:08 PM
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Re: [acorneau] Twisted bolts [In reply to]
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Almost forever.
We took out some bolt hangers that were placed about 21 years ago. The more suspect had extimate about 250000 falls on that hanger. At least.
You fall with the hanger about 10 cm below the foot.
It had still 17 kN strenght. No idea of the strenght of the bolt. About 9 meters from ground.
Ciao,
R


USnavy


Dec 18, 2011, 3:26 AM
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Re: [Kinobi] Twisted bolts [In reply to]
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Kinobi wrote:
Almost forever.
We took out some bolt hangers that were placed about 21 years ago. The more suspect had extimate about 250000 falls on that hanger. At least.
You fall with the hanger about 10 cm below the foot.
It had still 17 kN strenght. No idea of the strenght of the bolt. About 9 meters from ground.
Ciao,
R
I have seen a quick link deteriorate to the point of needing replacement in only 30 days. We have had grade 316 stainless steel shackles fail in 11 months. I have seen fixed draws that are only one year old with so much wear that it was literally unsafe to use them anymore. Nothing lasts forever, or anywhere near it. Hangers have an exceptional life span in non-corrosive environments, but the majority of other climbing gear will wear at a noticeable rate if its used regularly.

I also question that your hanger caught over 250,000 falls. Assuming the route was climbed every single day of every year across that 21 year span, we are talking about an average of 33 lead falls per day. Even on a classic trade route at a major sport crag, thats way above average. Even if we are talking about a gym, I still very strongly doubt you have 250,000 falls on any hanger.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Dec 22, 2011, 1:02 AM)


Kinobi


Dec 18, 2011, 5:29 AM
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USnavy wrote:
I also question that your hanger caught over 250,000 falls. Assuming the route was climbed every single day of every year across that 21 year span, we are talking about an average of 33 lead falls per day. Even on a classic trade route at a major sport crag, thats way above average. Even if we are talking about a gym, I still very strongly doubt you have 250,000 falls on any hanger.

Sorry, zero counting wrong. 25000.
For the season of the cliff, we calculate about 10 falls a day.
Average.
Still, pretty high number. Hanger were steel Kong. Not SS.
Best,
E


mattm


Dec 21, 2011, 7:36 AM
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Re: [Kinobi] Twisted bolts [In reply to]
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Kinobi wrote:
Interesting topic.

OT:
I am a climber since 20 years.
I bolt since 20 years.
I sell bolts hangers (not in the USA) since 5 years.
What hangers?

In reply to:
I am strongly against glue ins, simply because they are a hassle to place.. The misplacement factor is very high.
So you're against Glue Ins because they're a hassle to YOU? I've found that if you get your systems dialed, they're only marginally more difficult to place with most of your time difference found in cleaning the hole properly. The misplacement factor is slightly higher but those using glue ins probably know what they're doing and have done their homework. Misplacements with other bolts can occur as well and given that most people just yank on a bolt to tighten rather that using a torque wrench I'd argue the misplacement factor isn't as different as you think...

In reply to:
I wonder what a glue in, as strong as 30 kN is made for, if most of draws, break at 20 kN.
Hey, my stainless hangers broke at minumum 29 kN, but still, what are they made for that strong if 20 kN will be more than plenty...
Tests were done with smaller glue ins by JimT that were smaller and still met the UIAA minimum but people didn't like. I'd guess they "looked" weak to people and hence were rejected. As USnavy points out, gear exposed to the elements that does not get replaced regularly needs to have higher safety factors (strength) than your webbing that you can swap out as needed. Gear breaks. Biners snap, webbing cuts etc etc. You need to over engineer the fixed pro to account for such X-Factors.

The biggest thing you're missing here is that glue ins work in softer rock better than anything else. In softer rock NOTHING is stronger than a glue in.

Why do you even care that the bolts are much stronger? What negative is there from having them be massively strong? It's not like you're carrying the bolts with you on each lead.


Kinobi


Dec 21, 2011, 1:08 PM
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Re: [mattm] Twisted bolts [In reply to]
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I have some questions for you:

a) how many glue-ins have you placed? Equipping, not re-equipping.
a.1) have you ever tried to equip a route with Glue ins in a overhanging scenario?
b) have you ever seen 1 (one) EN 959 anchor broke in a real situation? If yes, where and when. EN 959 means 10 mm stainless bolt and stainless hanger. Try to avoid examples on places next to the sea, where the kind of stainless is the problem.
c) this is easy: how many glue ins have you seen poorly placed (moving)? 10, 100, 1000?

I believe that "overbuilding" is just overbuilding. Yes, right, from USA, I expect you have a different perspective than European.
Maybe you are not aware that there area very different kind of bolts. What we use in climbing is the cheapest thing a human being can buy, which might not be the best pick for the specific rock.
To see EN 959 norm you can go here.
http://kinobi.forumup.it/viewtopic.php?t=12&mforum=kinobi
You need to be registered to see links and photos.

Ciao,
E


(This post was edited by Kinobi on Dec 21, 2011, 1:11 PM)


mattm


Dec 21, 2011, 1:58 PM
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Re: [Kinobi] Twisted bolts [In reply to]
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Kinobi wrote:
I have some questions for you:

a) how many glue-ins have you placed? Equipping, not re-equipping.
a.1) have you ever tried to equip a route with Glue ins in a overhanging scenario?
b) have you ever seen 1 (one) EN 959 anchor broke in a real situation? If yes, where and when. EN 959 means 10 mm stainless bolt and stainless hanger. Try to avoid examples on places next to the sea, where the kind of stainless is the problem.
c) this is easy: how many glue ins have you seen poorly placed (moving)? 10, 100, 1000?

I believe that "overbuilding" is just overbuilding. Yes, right, from USA, I expect you have a different perspective than European.
Maybe you are not aware that there area very different kind of bolts. What we use in climbing is the cheapest thing a human being can buy, which might not be the best pick for the specific rock.
To see EN 959 norm you can go here.
http://kinobi.forumup.it/viewtopic.php?t=12&mforum=kinobi
You need to be registered to see links and photos.

Ciao,
E

Emanuele,

Regardless of what I've done (you have no doubt done more) what is your point?

You don't like glue ins because they require more work? Ok.
I do not mind the extra work.

you don't like them because they are stronger than they need to be? Why is that BAD?

I use many different types of bolts. I choose the appropriate style needed for the project. I use through bolts (wedge) , 5-pieces and glue ins.

You seem to want to make a point but have not made it yet.


kennoyce


Dec 21, 2011, 2:31 PM
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Re: [Kinobi] Twisted bolts [In reply to]
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Kinobi wrote:
I have some questions for you:

a) how many glue-ins have you placed? Equipping, not re-equipping.
a.1) have you ever tried to equip a route with Glue ins in a overhanging scenario?
b) have you ever seen 1 (one) EN 959 anchor broke in a real situation? If yes, where and when. EN 959 means 10 mm stainless bolt and stainless hanger. Try to avoid examples on places next to the sea, where the kind of stainless is the problem.
c) this is easy: how many glue ins have you seen poorly placed (moving)? 10, 100, 1000?

I just wanted to quickly answer your questions.

a) I've only ever placed 1 glue in and that was just because I wanted to give it a try.
a.1) no, it was on vertical rock.
b) no, I've never seen a 10mm (3/8") stainless bolt or hanger break
c) 0, I've never seen a single glue in that was moving.

I would like to add a d) being how many poorly placed mechanical bolts have you seen (i.e. spinners) and that number is certainly in the hundreds. This doesn't mean that the bolts were placed poorly to begin with, but with use they loosen up and become spinners (which reduces the strength of the placement), of course you can always argue that they can just be tightened down again, but then the chance of overtorquing them just becomes greater and greater.

Personally I bolt with mechanical bolts and hangers because of the convenience but I do think that glue-ins are vastly superior when installed correctly.

On another note, I don't think that either the tit-bolt or the wave-bolt is superior to the other, they both have their pros and cons, but I would certainly buy the tit-bolts over the wave bolts simply because of the way that wave-bolt has advertised themselves (and not just in this thread).


Kinobi


Dec 21, 2011, 10:39 PM
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Re: [mattm] Twisted bolts [In reply to]
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mattm wrote:
...

Ok.
My point is that mechanical bolts are overall better than glue ins. Their advantages pass the avantages of glue ins.
Such as price, convenience to place, safety in placement, easier to remove/hide, you place then "once" and it's done almost forever. Not to say, that if for some reasons (spinning) you need to maintainance something, you can, while with Glue Ins you can do nothing

Of course I would make more money if I would sell also Glue ins, but they are not as good as Mechanical bolts for the points above.
Bottom line, once I get to know about one (1) EN 959 anchor broken or pulled, I will may be change my mind.

Just in places where I have been, to let you know the scale of the issue:
- Albega, about 250 Glue ins moving. It's in a lot german websites.
- Sardinia, Giardino Gallico and Cala Fuili, about a dozen.
- Arco Massone classica. This is interesting. The place has been rebolted by Goverment by certified alpine guides including one guide that has placed something like 3500 anchors. They placed some glue ins with Hilti Glue. In the morning they checked and one cardridge of glue did not work. The other glue did work, and had serial number one digit higher than previous glue: which means either packed one nano second before, o on the following batch of producton, They called the technicial of Hilti,he drove there, and he openend the arms and said "no idea". Lessons learned: nobody know if the placement is good as long as you check.

Ciao, and Marry Chiristman to all of you.
E


acorneau


Dec 22, 2011, 7:23 AM
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Kinobi wrote:
Bottom line, once I get to know about one (1) EN 959 anchor broken or pulled, I will may be change my mind.

A climber died in Australia when a bolt ripped out in a fall and his rope was cut on a sharp rock:

http://www.onsight.com.au/news-blog/articles/36/nicks-accident-what-happened

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQt4AbQmJjE

Unsure


Oh, and here's a Ushba titanium glue-in that broke:

http://www.erockonline.com/...amp;hl=lonesome+dove


(This post was edited by acorneau on Dec 22, 2011, 7:30 AM)


Kinobi


Dec 22, 2011, 7:49 AM
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Sorry.
They were 8 mm bolts double expansion.
Not En 959.
I was very clear in my post.
It is anyway intersting to evaluate the dinamics of accident and the kind of rock. And wonder, why nobody did opened a route there before.
Shit happens, and the issue were not the bolts.
Ciao,
E


(This post was edited by Kinobi on Dec 22, 2011, 7:50 AM)


mattm


Dec 22, 2011, 12:56 PM
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First, I hope none of this sounds argumentative. I am not trying to be disparaging. Good, well thought out discussion on anchors is important. You have made some points below so now we can discuss them.

Kinobi wrote:
My point is that mechanical bolts are overall better than glue ins. Their advantages pass the avantages of glue ins.
Such as price, convenience to place, safety in placement, easier to remove/hide, you place then "once" and it's done almost forever.
I'll try and hit them point by point.

Price: I depends on what you're comparing them too. In the USA, both Bühler-Style bolts cost around $5.50. Adding in other glue costs it probably works out to $6.50 when you are efficient. That's for SS in either 304(A2) or 316(A4).
304SS QUALITY wedge bolts can be found for $1 but that's not common. Add a SS hanger ($3) and you're at $4. So a wedge bolt CAN beat a glue-in on price.
SS Powers 5-Pieces START at $4.60 and go up from there. So with a $3 hanger the glue in is already cheaper. In softer rock where we'll use a 1/2in x 3.75in 5-piece you're talking $8.80 + $3 hanger = $11.80 so TWICE the cost of a Glue In. Ouch. So price wise, only the Wedge bolt combo can beat a glue-in most of the time.

Convenience: Not going to argue here, Wedges and 5-Pieces are easier to place (wedges being the easiest). Like I said before though, depending on WHAT type of bolting you're doing you can get pretty good at glue-ins.

safety in placement: Not sure how you would qualify this one. Well placed in good rock, ANY of the bolts listed will be fine.

easier to remove/hide, you place then "once" and it's done almost forever 5-Pieces are "easier" to remove and/or hide. In NA, there's a big emphasis on trying to re-use the same hole if at all possible. Only the 5-Piece (or Triplex) makes this possible. Both the Wedge and Glue-In are pretty much non-removeable. Like you said though, with proper SS (A2 and A4) that MIGHT not be a big deal. I haven't seen any lifespan studies on 304 or 316SS though.

In reply to:
Not to say, that if for some reasons (spinning) you need to maintainance something, you can, while with Glue Ins you can do nothing
Both Wedges and 5-Pieces can have spinners. In fact, there's been some recent talk about 5-Pieces being more spinner prone and more compromised when they do spin than the wedge. That's over on ST somewhere...
Can you be more specific about loose or spinning Glue Ins? Are you talking about the older style SINGLE shaft bolts like Fixe or Petzl make (and can certainly spin if not notched and recessed) or more modern Bühler style bolts with two legs that help prevent rotation? I don't use single shaft glue ins for these reasons. ONLY Bühler style for me (Titt or Wave).


In reply to:
Of course I would make more money if I would sell also Glue ins, but they are not as good as Mechanical bolts for the points above.
Bottom line, once I get to know about one (1) EN 959 anchor broken or pulled, I will may be change my mind.
Are we talking about a PROPERLY installed EN 959 anchor? One where it was torqued to spec with a proper hanger? If so then I think you KNOW that it's unlikely to occur. Now, if we're talking about failures of bolts that SHOULD have been installed correctly, but weren't, there are several (R&I 12/11 accident @ NRG). This could easily be the case for ANY bolt anchor though. A wedge installed in soft rock that doesn't reach torque. A 5-Piece that's OVER torqued and is dangerously close to shearing off (easy to do when 12 ft-lbs is a spec!) and Glue Ins where the glue isn't mixed right, hole cleaned etc. ALL of these bolts are dependent on a skilled installer to ensure they meet minimum standards.

Your hangers look pretty nice. Why the change to made in Austria vs Made in Italy? Hard for me to tell via Google Translate.



In reply to:
Just in places where I have been, to let you know the scale of the issue:
- Albega, about 250 Glue ins moving. It's in a lot german websites.
- Sardinia, Giardino Gallico and Cala Fuili, about a dozen.
- Arco Massone classica. This is interesting. The place has been rebolted by Goverment by certified alpine guides including one guide that has placed something like 3500 anchors. They placed some glue ins with Hilti Glue. In the morning they checked and one cardridge of glue did not work. The other glue did work, and had serial number one digit higher than previous glue: which means either packed one nano second before, o on the following batch of producton, They called the technicial of Hilti,he drove there, and he openend the arms and said "no idea". Lessons learned: nobody know if the placement is good as long as you check.

Obviously, there are issues with glue ins as well. Nothing is perfect. Are the loose bolts all single shaft? Was the Hilti Glue issue a mixing problem? Seems questionable that the Hilti rep would just SHRUG and say no idea. That's a MAJOR issue for a MAJOR manufacturer.


I think most of this boils down to THERE IS NO ONE ANSWER and quality discussions of the positives and negatives of each bolt solution are beneficial in the long run to the community as a whole.

Thanks for the chat Kinobi! Enjoy the holidays.


Kinobi


Dec 22, 2011, 10:52 PM
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Re: [mattm] Twisted bolts [In reply to]
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Dear MattM,

I have no wish to convince anyone.
I have wish to educate equippers and climbers.
Equippers are the foundament of our sport.
Equippers and new openeres must be helped in any way and in any means by people selling gear.
Unfrortunately most bolting gear does it for profit.
As you find out my hangers, you can find out who I am, which is not important anyway. Selling this gear is less than 0.5% of my turnover: i do it for, fun not for money.
As a still high level climber and frequent equipper I sell most (and give out for free 10% of turnover) to equippers for NEW Routes.

In Europe my bolts plus hanger AISI 304 cost 2.5 euro VAT/ taxes included (Italy, is 21%). Which is about the same as my main competitor (RAUMER). Cost of Glue ins, without glue, is about the same, a bit more. You need to add glue.

But price is a minimal part of the deal. Once you equipp a route, if you do it in normal eviroment, and you use stainless gear, it's done forever. I faced that, at least in the routes I open, it's impratical, close to impossible, to use glue ins in "opening". A normal EN959 (bolt and hanger in Stainless) once placed decently, is plenty for a few generations of climbers. Glue ins are usually for RE-bolting of normal steel. So you need to calculate the cost of old and new gear. Glue isn, here, cost twice as much. And they stay a hassle to place.
Two holes, etc, are not a significant deal if everything is fixed the first time. There is no need of re-bolting.
Yes it cost more to bolt it once, but it's cheaper in the long run (not to say enviromental...)

If installation is NOT done properly, bolts or glue ins are a mess. It's easier to install properly a bolt than a glue ins. We do not use in Europe the 5 pieces units. Basically for price reasons or heritage. I feel that also rock has its part.

The difference between the two hangers, is that the former one is not produced anymore since 3 years.
And...
The new one is thiker, stronger, EN959, tested one each 500 produced, bigger, production batch numbered.
With former producer I faced some "issues" in quality (most of old were AISI 316) and "commercial exclusivity". With new producer I feel I offer a better product at the same price.

Glue ins psinner were Fixe and RAUMER (yes old style).
Nobody uses PEtzl here since nobody can afford them.

Ciao, Merry Xmas, we are bolting a 150 routes places may be I post a photo...
E


Kinobi


Dec 23, 2011, 7:44 AM
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Re: [Kinobi] Twisted bolts [In reply to]
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Just in case.
It was posted a couple of days ago.
E
http://www.pukli.it/EXTRA/Attenzione.htm

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