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SLACKLINE FAILURE! ! !
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Partner slacklinejoe


Apr 25, 2008, 8:01 PM
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Re: [jt512] SLACKLINE FAILURE! ! ! [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Why do you guys use carabiners instead of quick links, which can be wrench tightened.

Jay
Quicklinks are usually too narrow to allow clean loading of 1" webbing unless you get the very large ones. This especially becomes problematic if you are making a primitive tensioning system trying to use it as a makeshift pulley. In addition you still have the issue of having to manually thread everything instead of clipping or carrying a wrench every time you setup. If you were to make that trade off 50kn rap rings would be a better option.

That said, steel carabiners are an excellent compromise as they offer higher strength as well as the convenience of clipping and they are even lower friction than aluminum (according to the SAR reports I've read). Most people however aren't willing to dedicate such spendy equipment.

Tri-loading and not checking gates are the most common reason for slackline biner failure - and those are really caused by inattention or insufficent knowledge on the rigger's part making more of a human error issue.

I agree with Jim, this looks like an open gate failure. Most likely it was an old biner with a stickey gate, it wasn't fully closed when loaded and thus it failed, probably even at it's rated open strength.


(This post was edited by slacklinejoe on Apr 27, 2008, 2:17 PM)


majid_sabet


Apr 27, 2008, 10:05 AM
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Re: [slacklinejoe] SLACKLINE FAILURE! ! ! [In reply to]
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slacklinejoe wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Why do you guys use carabiners instead of quick links, which can be wrench tightened.

Jay
Quicklines are usually too narrow to allow clean loading of 1" webbing unless you get the very large ones. This especially becomes problematic if you are making a primitive tensioning system trying to use it as a makeshift pulley. In addition you still have the issue of having to manually thread everything instead of clipping or carrying a wrench every time you setup. If you were to make that trade off 50kn rap rings would be a better option.

That said, steel carabiners are an excellent compromise as they offer higher strength as well as the convenience of clipping and they are even lower friction than aluminum (according to the SAR reports I've read). Most people however aren't willing to dedicate such spendy equipment.

Tri-loading and not checking gates are the most common reason for slackline biner failure - and those are really caused by inattention or insufficent knowledge on the rigger's part making more of a human error issue.

I agree with Jim, this looks like an open gate failure. Most likely it was an old biner with a stickey gate, it wasn't fully closed when loaded and thus it failed, probably even at it's rated open strength.

my $20 says that even due biner failed due to an open gate, what really caused the gate to fail was side loading the biner which caused the elbow to open up allowing gate to miss the locking notch.


petsfed


Apr 27, 2008, 10:49 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] SLACKLINE FAILURE! ! ! [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
slacklinejoe wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Why do you guys use carabiners instead of quick links, which can be wrench tightened.

Jay
Quicklines are usually too narrow to allow clean loading of 1" webbing unless you get the very large ones. This especially becomes problematic if you are making a primitive tensioning system trying to use it as a makeshift pulley. In addition you still have the issue of having to manually thread everything instead of clipping or carrying a wrench every time you setup. If you were to make that trade off 50kn rap rings would be a better option.

That said, steel carabiners are an excellent compromise as they offer higher strength as well as the convenience of clipping and they are even lower friction than aluminum (according to the SAR reports I've read). Most people however aren't willing to dedicate such spendy equipment.

Tri-loading and not checking gates are the most common reason for slackline biner failure - and those are really caused by inattention or insufficent knowledge on the rigger's part making more of a human error issue.

I agree with Jim, this looks like an open gate failure. Most likely it was an old biner with a stickey gate, it wasn't fully closed when loaded and thus it failed, probably even at it's rated open strength.

my $20 says that even due biner failed due to an open gate, what really caused the gate to fail was side loading the biner which caused the elbow to open up allowing gate to miss the locking notch.

Which is no doubt exacerbated by the often unpredictable stretch-relax cycles in a slack line. I doubt it is completely poor sling placement, although I use ovals to counteract that.


ja1484


Apr 27, 2008, 12:00 PM
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Re: [jt512] SLACKLINE FAILURE! ! ! [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Why do you guys use carabiners instead of quick links, which can be wrench tightened.

Jay


The question I usually pose is "why do you guys slackline, because it's not climbing and therefore I couldn't give a crap about it?"

But then, I guess some people out there have fun slacklining. If they want, I guess.


jt512


Apr 27, 2008, 12:19 PM
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Re: [ja1484] SLACKLINE FAILURE! ! ! [In reply to]
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ja1484 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Why do you guys use carabiners instead of quick links, which can be wrench tightened.

Jay


The question I usually pose is "why do you guys slackline, because it's not climbing and therefore I couldn't give a crap about it?"

But then, I guess some people out there have fun slacklining. If they want, I guess.

I should have prefaced my question with, "The lameness of the activity notwithstanding...."

Jay


funkystumpy


Apr 27, 2008, 7:09 PM
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Re: [jt512] SLACKLINE FAILURE! ! ! [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
ja1484 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Why do you guys use carabiners instead of quick links, which can be wrench tightened.

Jay


The question I usually pose is "why do you guys slackline, because it's not climbing and therefore I couldn't give a crap about it?"

But then, I guess some people out there have fun slacklining. If they want, I guess.

I should have prefaced my question with, "The lameness of the activity notwithstanding...."

Jay

If it is so lame then why are you spending your time perusing the slackline forums? Do you two look for ways to put other people's interests down? To me that is worse than spending time on a "lame" activity.

~Funky


jt512


Apr 27, 2008, 7:19 PM
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Re: [funkystumpy] SLACKLINE FAILURE! ! ! [In reply to]
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funkystumpy wrote:
jt512 wrote:
ja1484 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Why do you guys use carabiners instead of quick links, which can be wrench tightened.

Jay


The question I usually pose is "why do you guys slackline, because it's not climbing and therefore I couldn't give a crap about it?"

But then, I guess some people out there have fun slacklining. If they want, I guess.

I should have prefaced my question with, "The lameness of the activity notwithstanding...."

Jay

If it is so lame then why are you spending your time perusing the slackline forums? Do you two look for ways to put other people's interests down? To me that is worse than spending time on a "lame" activity.

Try and follow along, Einstein.

Jay


chalkfree


Apr 27, 2008, 7:28 PM
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Re: [jt512] SLACKLINE FAILURE! ! ! [In reply to]
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At what point did we all decide not to play nice?

Anyhow, seems like the method of failure is pretty obvious, however simpler solutions are available.

One could for instance tape the gates shut at the nose. But I'm planning on doing any such thing. The reason I feel that all these precautions are a bit over the top is the scenario here, a 250+ lbs person on a line tightened with a 5:1 pulley is just begging to fail. Majid as silly as he sometimes is is right about looking at the degree of the angle formed, but he's looking in the wrong spot, he ought to be looking at the angle in the center of the line, where with a big fella and a tight line the breaking strength of our gear can be exceeded pretty fast.

On a highline this would of course be a bit different, but for my everyday slackline I'm only worried about failure involving over-tensioning.


jt512


Apr 27, 2008, 7:38 PM
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Re: [chalkfree] SLACKLINE FAILURE! ! ! [In reply to]
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chalkfree wrote:
At what point did we all decide not to play nice?

When some hypersensitive idiot couldn't recognize a joke.

Jay


ja1484


Apr 27, 2008, 8:11 PM
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The internet is serious bidness.


taydude


Apr 27, 2008, 8:20 PM
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Re: [petsfed] SLACKLINE FAILURE! ! ! [In reply to]
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How tight was that thing that it would whip at the slacker?! I've got a sort of shitty setup that my mom bought me for christmas. So it doesn't have carabiners just a ratchet and a friction camming type device you're supposed to use to take the ratchet off the line. Well going by their instructions I set it up and first walk the cam fails and i hit the ground. No gun shot though and no swollen ankle.


fitzontherocks


Apr 27, 2008, 8:24 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] SLACKLINE FAILURE! ! ! [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
By just looking at the way you guys rig, there are so many problems with your systems and looks like most of you follow each other on wrong rigging tips.

You're the first and only person to show a rigged setup.


Partner slacklinejoe


Apr 27, 2008, 8:34 PM
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Re: [taydude] SLACKLINE FAILURE! ! ! [In reply to]
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taydude wrote:
Well going by their instructions I set it up and first walk the cam fails and i hit the ground.
Just a hunch but it sounds like you loaded the cam buckle backwards, even if it was some weird hardware failure I'm sure if you contact them they could get it fixed for you and clear up any issues you might have.


petsfed


Apr 27, 2008, 9:30 PM
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Re: [chalkfree] SLACKLINE FAILURE! ! ! [In reply to]
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chalkfree wrote:
The reason I feel that all these precautions are a bit over the top is the scenario here, a 250+ lbs person on a line tightened with a 5:1 pulley is just begging to fail. Majid as silly as he sometimes is is right about looking at the degree of the angle formed, but he's looking in the wrong spot, he ought to be looking at the angle in the center of the line, where with a big fella and a tight line the breaking strength of our gear can be exceeded pretty fast.

On a highline this would of course be a bit different, but for my everyday slackline I'm only worried about failure involving over-tensioning.

The mechanical advantage has no impact on the breaking strength of the line, realistically. Its not like you'd load the anchor with only 250+ or so if you used a 1:1 system, its the same no matter what tightening system you use. I use an (ideally) 9:1 system and we've had 300+ pounders on the line without failure. The key was that no gates ever opened up and we had a very simple tie off that stretched a bit.

Next warm day I'll take some pictures and post up.


taydude


Apr 27, 2008, 9:43 PM
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Re: [slacklinejoe] SLACKLINE FAILURE! ! ! [In reply to]
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lol no it's loaded properly but bouncing made the spring loading cam piece give way or the friction was not enough to hold the tension. either way im not too concerned as i'm going to cut the webbing off of the gear it came with and buy some biners soon.


funkystumpy


Apr 28, 2008, 10:16 AM
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jt512 wrote:
chalkfree wrote:
At what point did we all decide not to play nice?

When some hypersensitive idiot couldn't recognize a joke.

Jay

I apologize for not recognizing some joke that my sense of humor/knowledge base didn't pick up on, but there was no need to call me a hypersensitive idiot. I have seen far too many posts by you and [edit: jal1484], where you slam someone for not much reason at all or for something that you two could have very easily ignored.


(This post was edited by funkystumpy on Apr 28, 2008, 10:40 AM)


jt512


Apr 28, 2008, 10:26 AM
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Re: [funkystumpy] SLACKLINE FAILURE! ! ! [In reply to]
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funkystumpy wrote:
jt512 wrote:
chalkfree wrote:
At what point did we all decide not to play nice?

When some hypersensitive idiot couldn't recognize a joke.

Jay

I apologize for not recognizing some joke that my sense of humor/knowledge base didn't pick up on, but there was no need to call me a hypersensitive idiot. I have seen far too many posts by you and jt512, where you slam someone for not much reason at all or for something that you two could have very easily ignored.

Are you sure there's no reason to call you a hypersensitive idiot?

Jay


funkystumpy


Apr 28, 2008, 10:38 AM
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jt512 wrote:
funkystumpy wrote:
jt512 wrote:
chalkfree wrote:
At what point did we all decide not to play nice?

When some hypersensitive idiot couldn't recognize a joke.

Jay

I apologize for not recognizing some joke that my sense of humor/knowledge base didn't pick up on, but there was no need to call me a hypersensitive idiot. I have seen far too many posts by you and jt512, where you slam someone for not much reason at all or for something that you two could have very easily ignored.

Are you sure there's no reason to call you a hypersensitive idiot?

Jay

Yeah, pretty sure. I am also pretty sure that I don't really feel like wasting my time on a stupid argument with you. Adios


dynosore


Apr 28, 2008, 10:42 AM
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Steel biners: a few extra bucks
Hospital bills: thousands

Not a hard choice....


live2climb


Apr 28, 2008, 10:58 AM
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dynosore wrote:
Steel biners: a few extra bucks
Hospital bills: thousands

Not a hard choice....

wrong steel can break as well my freind
more like
setting up a line with hevel mettle = death
setting up a line with soft points slack hitches and nothing that is not webbing = some one who know how to set up a slack line = do your homework


funkystumpy


Apr 28, 2008, 11:04 AM
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Back to OP:
I think Majid has a good point about wrapping towels or t-shirts around any hardware being used to help prevent projectiles.


Partner slacklinejoe


Apr 28, 2008, 11:22 AM
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live2climb wrote:
wrong steel can break as well my freind
more like
setting up a line with hevel mettle = death
setting up a line with soft points slack hitches and nothing that is not webbing = some one who know how to set up a slack line = do your homework

While technically it's true that steel can break I've yet to hear of a single instance where a slackline has broken a steel carabiner. Even the cross load strength of steel is usually higher than the webbing strength.

I have however received lots of mentions of soft pointing destroying the lines via nylon on nylon friction. Most folks rely on prussic style techniques to hold the line, which works on relatively small lines but can easily damage the line on tighter systems.

Soft pointing is a good skill to learn but it has limitations - many a highline has ended up melted due to soft pointing techniques.

Hard pointing is far more prefered in my books - generally having the line sewn for the gap or using a climbing grade harness buckle to adjust your main line's length to a perfect fit. You may still have hardware in your anchors but no tensioning systems. The main difference is avoiding nylon-on-nylon at all costs while still removing the tensioning system. I've personally melted through a surf line in one day with nylon-on-nylon friction. It actually melts the webbing together in a rather interesting display of physics.

I've actually made some nifty little tools to do just that where you have no nylon-on-nylon, no carabiners and only a couple ounces of metal to do it.


(This post was edited by slacklinejoe on Apr 28, 2008, 11:30 AM)


Partner slacklinejoe


Apr 28, 2008, 11:32 AM
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Re: [funkystumpy] SLACKLINE FAILURE! ! ! [In reply to]
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funkystumpy wrote:
Back to OP:
I think Majid has a good point about wrapping towels or t-shirts around any hardware being used to help prevent projectiles.
I can't think that a t-shirt will do much other than obscure checking your rigging. Maybe it would reduce impact or keep shards from flying outwards but I can't think it'd reduce the momentum of parts flinging at your ankles by much. I could totally be wrong on it though, I'm not willing to field test it.

However if you have excess webbing on your main line an extra loop around the tree and a quick mule hitch/trucker's hitch/whatever next to the tensioning system towards the center of the line would give you a "safety" if you screwed something up.


(This post was edited by slacklinejoe on Apr 28, 2008, 11:34 AM)


Partner devkrev


Apr 28, 2008, 11:43 AM
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This is a good reason why I don't slackline, I would hate to lose out on climbing because I injured myself messing around, or got a massive brain injury from flying bits of aluminum.













Plus I suck at it.
dev


petsfed


Apr 28, 2008, 11:49 AM
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The current set up I use has an ellington holding the line tight, then a separate tensioning system to get it tight. I pull the ellington tight and then I can reset the tensioning system. The downside is that it thrashes my line something awful in the area that the webbing stacks. Is it any easier to use regular buckles, or a cam buckle, or am I just gonna have to adjust to a line with melt streaks on it?

My main concern is having a crazy cluster fuck when I go to take the tensioning system off.

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