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mhix13


May 14, 2008, 8:02 AM
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Girth Hitch Application
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Thanks for all the responses to the stopper question. Here's another for you. When getting cams, hexes, tricams, stoppers, etc. some come with a short sling/dyneema loop and some come with just a wire.

1) If it's just a wire loop would it be acceptable to girth hitch a sling to extend it to save a carabiner (ie to save weight by needing fewer carabiners)?

2) If the piece is pre-slung and you still want to extend it, would it be ill-advised to girth a sling to the short sling already there in order to save a carabiner like above?


dutyje


May 14, 2008, 8:04 AM
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1. No
2. Yes


coastal_climber


May 14, 2008, 8:07 AM
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dutyje wrote:
1. No
2. Yes

I'll second this.



>Cam


shrug7


May 14, 2008, 8:25 AM
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coastal_climber wrote:
dutyje wrote:
1. No
2. Yes

I'll second this.



>Cam

Third...


ggdillon


May 14, 2008, 8:38 AM
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And an additional comment: If you need to extend the wired stopper because any 'biner attached to it would be loaded over edge, an acceptable solution might be to 'girth hitch' (it actually ends up looking like a square knot) another wired stopper's wire to the first stopper and then clip that with a 'biner (hard to explain, but get two stoppers and it's easy to see how it works).


Gmburns2000


May 14, 2008, 8:40 AM
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shrug7 wrote:
coastal_climber wrote:
dutyje wrote:
1. No
2. Yes

I'll second this.



>Cam

Third...

In the words of the famous Onion interview of James Kilts...FIFTH


mhix13


May 14, 2008, 9:31 AM
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I'm guessing not to do it with the wire in case it's (the wire itself) frayed and the metal burs can compromise the sling?

Why not girth hitch it with another sling?


majid_sabet


May 14, 2008, 9:33 AM
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mhix13 wrote:
I'm guessing not to do it with the wire in case it's (the wire itself) frayed and the metal burs can compromise the sling?

Why not girth hitch it with another sling?

GH slings to sling is a bad idea.


jermanimal


May 14, 2008, 9:38 AM
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Sling to sling is not good, here is some testing...

Look for...November 9, 2006 Connecting Two Slings Together
http://www.bdel.com/...p_archive.php#030907

It is about half way down.

It was mentioned above, it you are in a pinch, a weak sling to sling connection is better then no pro.


coastal_climber


May 14, 2008, 9:38 AM
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majid_sabet wrote:
mhix13 wrote:
I'm guessing not to do it with the wire in case it's (the wire itself) frayed and the metal burs can compromise the sling?

Why not girth hitch it with another sling?

GH slings to sling is a bad idea.

Wasn't there a case of a sling being cut because it was girth hitched to another? I think the info was on this site.


>Cam


shrug7


May 14, 2008, 9:48 AM
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http://www.rockclimbing.com/...rum.cgi?post=1473045

That thread maybe?


majid_sabet


May 14, 2008, 9:50 AM
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coastal_climber wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
mhix13 wrote:
I'm guessing not to do it with the wire in case it's (the wire itself) frayed and the metal burs can compromise the sling?

Why not girth hitch it with another sling?

GH slings to sling is a bad idea.

Wasn't there a case of a sling being cut because it was girth hitched to another? I think the info was on this site.


>Cam

I am telling you, pull test has shown that GHing is bad idea if GH is been loaded in a fall.


Gmburns2000


May 14, 2008, 9:54 AM
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majid_sabet wrote:
coastal_climber wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
mhix13 wrote:
I'm guessing not to do it with the wire in case it's (the wire itself) frayed and the metal burs can compromise the sling?

Why not girth hitch it with another sling?

GH slings to sling is a bad idea.

Wasn't there a case of a sling being cut because it was girth hitched to another? I think the info was on this site.


>Cam

I am telling you, pull test has shown that GHing is bad idea if GH is been loaded in a fall.

Alright Majid, now that there is a precedent, it is time for you to take a fall with two slings GH'd to each other to show us why it is a bad idea.



























PS - I'm kidding.


mhix13


May 14, 2008, 10:17 AM
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Wow great info on that link! Thanks man!


therat


May 14, 2008, 10:26 AM
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mhix13 wrote:

Wow great info on that link! Thanks man!

Second.


esoteric1


May 14, 2008, 10:38 AM
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heres an idea, go buy freedom of the hills,( its a pretty comprehensive book) or hire a guide for a few days...


majid_sabet


May 14, 2008, 10:51 AM
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coastal_climber wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
mhix13 wrote:
I'm guessing not to do it with the wire in case it's (the wire itself) frayed and the metal burs can compromise the sling?

Why not girth hitch it with another sling?

GH slings to sling is a bad idea.

Wasn't there a case of a sling being cut because it was girth hitched to another? I think the info was on this site.


>Cam

yes

I think I even have the photos from a dude who GH two trad anchors. One leg of the master point failed due to GHing. I'll see if I could find that photo and post it.


mhix13


May 14, 2008, 11:25 AM
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esoteric1 wrote:
heres an idea, go buy freedom of the hills,( its a pretty comprehensive book) or hire a guide for a few days...

I have freedom of the hills... reading athe very short blurb about the girth hitch gave me the idea. it doesn't mention anything about what not to use it for.

As per the guide... money is a limiting factor for me right now and when there's a community on here with lots of experience why not ask all of you guys questions?

some people like to be Obi-Won_Canobis with noobs Wink


jestering


May 14, 2008, 11:32 AM
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mhix13 wrote:
when there's a community on here with lots of experience why not ask all of you guys questions?

Stick around for a while, and you'll see why not.


coastal_climber


May 14, 2008, 1:06 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
coastal_climber wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
mhix13 wrote:
I'm guessing not to do it with the wire in case it's (the wire itself) frayed and the metal burs can compromise the sling?

Why not girth hitch it with another sling?

GH slings to sling is a bad idea.

Wasn't there a case of a sling being cut because it was girth hitched to another? I think the info was on this site.


>Cam

yes

I think I even have the photos from a dude who GH two trad anchors. One leg of the master point failed due to GHing. I'll see if I could find that photo and post it.

Please be sure to illustrate.


>Cam


tolman_paul


May 14, 2008, 5:43 PM
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And to answer your questions as how to properly deal with those issues:

If there is no sling on the cam, either send it in to someone to have one sewn on, loop it with a sewn sling (not girth hitched, doubled up) or clip the sling with a biner.

Use a runner with biners on both ends to extend a piece.

While you have to carry the extra weight of the biners, the extra weight isn't a bad thing at the placement, and will often help keep the placement in place vs being pulled out from rope drag.

Girth hitches dramatically decrease the strength of webbing, and are very difficult if not impossible to remove when loaded. The only climbing use I can think of for a girth hitch is slinging a knob or flake to keep the runner from being pulled off.


stymingersfink


May 14, 2008, 5:59 PM
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tolman_paul wrote:
The only climbing use I can think of for a girth hitch is slinging a knob or flake to keep the runner from being pulled off.
Debatable, but sometimes even then a clove will work as good or better, depending on how much cling material you've got to work with.


knudenoggin


May 25, 2008, 3:25 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
coastal_climber wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
mhix13 wrote:
Why not girth hitch it with another sling?
GH slings to sling is a bad idea.
Wasn't there a case of a sling being cut because it was girth hitched to another? I think the info was on this site.
Cam
yes
I think I even have the photos from a dude who GH two trad anchors. One leg of the master point failed due to GHing. I'll see if I could find that photo and post it.
Absolute rubbish!
Some might not have read the factual rebuttals to the old, suspended-reason
ranting over imagined girth-hitching-skinny-slings dangers,
but I know you have, MS, and you were called down on this by both me
and one GH'd-slings tester, Maldaly.
The URLink to the Mammut investigative report of the now infamous John
Sherman sling-cut case has been posted several times.
The BDEL testing should be reassuring, too, although, unfortunately,
in only one, accidental case, did the usual GH geometry obtain.

It should also be possible to get (much?) better results of tying a sling to
wire, but obviously not in the usual method(s). Perhaps that's something
Aric will check out.

*kN*


sky7high


May 31, 2008, 11:02 PM
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Ever read the little instruction manual that comes with your stoppers? (I'm asuming BD, since you call them stoppers)




Thought so.

I suggest you go read it online at http://www.bdel.com even if they're not BD nuts


dta95b7r


Jun 1, 2008, 5:05 AM
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I would just like to add that if you are going to girth hitch two slings together just make sure you don't mix spectra and dyneema slings.


dutyje


Jun 1, 2008, 4:59 PM
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dta95b7r wrote:
I would just like to add that if you are going to girth hitch two slings together just make sure you don't mix spectra and dyneema slings.

I thought it was don't mix nylon and perlon slings... or maybe it was horse-hair and pubic-hair slings... I can never remember.


dta95b7r


Jun 1, 2008, 5:38 PM
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I think you are correct sir. I remember hearing about nylon being cut by a dyneema sling.


dutyje


Jun 2, 2008, 5:54 AM
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dta95b7r wrote:
I think you are correct sir. I remember hearing about nylon being cut by a dyneema sling.

Hmm.. that's not what I said. You had said not to mix Dyneema and Spectra slings. My post was a subtle way of pointing out that Dyneema and Spectra are the same material. They are just different brand names.

That's why I said "Nylon and Perlon" -- they are the same thing. Perlon is a brand name of nylon used in cords.


anonymouse


Jun 2, 2008, 6:36 AM
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Ok guys, I can't believe this thread has gone on this long without this link being posted:

http://www.bdel.com/...p_archive.php#110906

So while we all agree that the girth hitch is not the best hitch to use, there is absolutely no truth to the idea that a girth hitched (dyneema or otherwise) sling could actually cut another sling. Let's all try and put that myth to rest.

Edit: If you don't read all the way to the bottom, you might get the very wrong impression that a smaller sling does actually cut a larger one. The pull tests only show that they reduce the overall strength, not that they do something as dramatic as cut the sling. Be sure to make it all the way through to see the pictures of Sherman's cut sling, and the failure mode of a pulled sling.


(This post was edited by anonymouse on Jun 2, 2008, 6:40 AM)


Partner j_ung


Jun 2, 2008, 7:29 AM
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majid_sabet wrote:
coastal_climber wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
mhix13 wrote:
I'm guessing not to do it with the wire in case it's (the wire itself) frayed and the metal burs can compromise the sling?

Why not girth hitch it with another sling?

GH slings to sling is a bad idea.

Wasn't there a case of a sling being cut because it was girth hitched to another? I think the info was on this site.


>Cam

yes

I think I even have the photos from a dude who GH two trad anchors. One leg of the master point failed due to GHing. I'll see if I could find that photo and post it.

If you're talking about the John-Sherman Mammut Dyneema break, Mammut disputes the report. Their official response was that the sling was probably already damaged prior to its break. FWIW, though, I agree that girth hitching runners together is far from optimum. And girth hitching a runner to a stopper a wire is a recipe for disaster. If you must connect a sling to a stopper wire without a biner, doubling the sling through the wire is far superior. And even then, you should probably pick the thickest sling on your rack.


adatesman


Jun 2, 2008, 7:49 AM
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Partner j_ung


Jun 2, 2008, 7:56 AM
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adatesman wrote:
j_ung wrote:
FWIW, though, I agree that girth hitching runners together is far from optimum. And girth hitching a runner to a stopper a wire is a recipe for disaster. If you must connect a sling to a stopper wire without a biner, doubling the sling through the wire is far superior. And even then, you should probably pick the thickest sling on your rack.

Actually, knudeNoggin and I have been kicking this around a bit over email lately and I'm hoping to get something put together for The Lab sometime soon. The quick version is that he found this site which shows slings attached to cable with friction knots (looks to be a via ferrata application). kN's thought is that girth hitching to wires will cut the cord fairly easily, but maybe using a friction knot (as used on that site) might yield better results.

Some quick and dirty testing on the pile of 5' core stands sitting in the workshop (~factor 1, 50 pounds of weight) was giving me breaking strengths of ~240 lb-force for loops of core strand made from a pair of strands attached with butterfly bends (they'd break at one of the knots). Girth hitching a loop to the wire from a stopper would give ~140 lb-force and failure was at the girth hitch. Quite interestingly, using a 5 wrap sheet bend gave ~250 lb-force breaking strength for the two drops I tried it with. Failure came at the point where the strands made their first full turn around the wires at the top of the stack of wraps and both ends of the loop severed (two cuts... the GH had only one cut).

Given the fragile nature of core strands and the apparent possibility of obtaining full strength when attached to a wire, it looks to me like this is worth further investigation.

-a.

I suppose that's sort of interesting, but even if it bears fruit, it stills impractical for trad protection, if for no other reason than that it would take a long time and two hands to rig.


knudenoggin


Jun 4, 2008, 9:50 AM
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j_ung wrote:
If you're talking about the John-Sherman Mammut Dyneema break, Mammut disputes the report. Their official response was that the sling was probably already damaged prior to its break. . . .
I previously answered this above, and yet someone apparently missed that?
And, no, Mammut did NOT suspect prior damage--thanks for the URLink to their
report, but many will (continue) to ignore reading that and recall only what is
posted here, so let me post Mammut's conclusion:

Mammut believes that the broken sling in question was cut by a sharp object.
...
The most plausible scenario, borne out by the linear characteristics of the break and location of the break outside the knot, is that the sling was cut with a very sharp object.


And THAT points Mr. Sherman's problem in an entirely different direction.

But, no doubt, in a couple weeks or ... , we'll again see someone posting that
skinny slings of HMPE can easily be cut or do the cutting ... .
(And maybe we'll still be finding WMD & prior Al Queada in Iraq, as long as Cheney
lives.)

Unsure


fulton


Jun 4, 2008, 11:07 AM
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Never girth hitch anything to a wire.

When girth hitched, webbing's strength is reduced up to %60.
If you make a habit of girth hitching your cam slings and falling on them they will become worn.

Spectra does not do well when knotted or hitched in general (of course it will hold, but again, its a wear issue [see below]):


(BD has done all the tests as far as connecting slings together sans biners:
http://www.bdel.com/...p_archive.php#110906
This is a great resource which I am sure many of you are already familiar with)

The other thing to consider is that your second will have to remove the gear and, hopefully, re-rack it to some extent before they arrive at the belay. If the cam doesn't have a biner on it then the second will have a difficult time of being orderly.
Especailly when swapping leads, the second wants to be able to remove the cam (and draw) and rack them on their own harness the way they like it for the next lead, thus minimizing time during change overs.

You know, climbing is often about compromise and finding solutions for the situation you are in at the moment--sometimes a girth hitch will be advantageous over using a biner, such as an alternative to having a biner rub against an edge and potentially open the gate. And sometimes you will want to conserve your biners for later, and sometimes you will want to conserve weight, though with light weight biners that practice has gone by the way side.

In many cases, you can make a "basket" instead of uisng a girth hitch. Baskets actually double the holding power of the sling, whereas a girth hitch reduces it a good bit. The basket technique is often used by riggers, who are more concerned with overall strength of a system, not rope drag.


knudenoggin


Jun 9, 2008, 3:35 PM
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fulton wrote:
Spectra does not do well when knotted or hitched in general (of course it will hold, but again, its a wear issue [see below]):
[image]...
Geesh, could you not even get more than ONE post distant from the refutation
of your insinuation???!!
That is a photo of a CUT sling, not one doing poorly when knotted.
You must take the cake ... !

Unsure


Forums : Climbing Disciplines : Trad Climbing

 


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