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Which Would You Fall On?
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Partner oldsalt


Jun 2, 2008, 7:22 PM
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Which Would You Fall On?
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I placed the nut in the hole and my partner Jimmy critiqued it. (I'll give the critique below.)

Jimmy slung the horn and said that the nut was not trustworthy. I am curious... which would you prefer to fall on, if you had to choose only one placement, and why?

A little about Sand Rock: Sand Rock has sandstone and various forms of igneous rock, formed with heat and pressure. The place looks like masses of conglomerates with shells and sand, packed around poured blocks and odd shapes of harder rock.

The harder stuff forms horns and crowns that have been exposed by weathering over the years. I have slung horns in the past and will again, but I worry about the slings getting worn or even cut if they work against the rock.

Jimmy's Critique (Jimmy, let me know if I messed this up):

The thin piece with the hole that I used to feed the cable through cannot be trusted. It is brittle and too thin. The sling is safer because it is securely hitched to a larger piece of rock.


healyje


Jun 2, 2008, 7:27 PM
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If there was nothing else I'd take the nut - but in this case in an either / or situation I'd take the slung horn every time. if I was worried about the sling on the horn I'd do both and make the nut sacrificial loading a bit before the horn.


taydude


Jun 2, 2008, 7:34 PM
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I think i would have looked for options in that crack to the left, unless that horn is really thick( it looks a little thin to me :/ hard to tell in the picture ). the nut placement looks scary, did you give that a good yank? it looks like it could snap right off.


coastal_climber


Jun 2, 2008, 7:34 PM
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Same as Healyje. The stopper has practically no surface contact, putting the load on a small part of the rock. The slung chickenhead = bomber, (depending on rock quality).

Plus you sort of answered your own question:

oldsalt wrote:
The thin piece with the hole that I used to feed the cable through cannot be trusted. It is brittle and too thin. The sling is safer because it is securely hitched to a larger piece of rock.


>Cam


doz


Jun 2, 2008, 7:39 PM
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I would not want to take a whip on that nut. I agree with your bro about it being to thin, and from the rock type/description it makes it even more dodgy in my mind. But, I am looking at a photo not at the actual rock, hard to be to definitive. As to the sling as far as I can tell it looks like a much better choice. If you are worried about thrashing the sling get a few 1 tubular nylon slings they are tough.

Doz


coastal_climber


Jun 2, 2008, 7:40 PM
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Those BD sewn slings are pretty solid, and durable.


>Cam


GeneralBenson


Jun 2, 2008, 7:59 PM
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I guess my answer would be, why not both? If they're both dodgy, then throw them both in. It looks like neither one is dependant on the other, so it's sort of redundant. I'm also assuming that what looks like an obvious crack to the left, is really just a dark shadow and the thing in front of it is just a flake?


coolcat83


Jun 2, 2008, 8:14 PM
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horn. but you get points for creativity on the nut, why not equalize them both if they are independantly sketchy? also was there nothing in the crack? looks like a possible tricam placement. maybe sling through the hole if it's smooth? would put different forces on the rock (more distributed less chance of boring through?), depending on things that i can't see from the photo might be an option too.


socalclimber


Jun 2, 2008, 8:15 PM
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Hmmm. I wouldn't be in any hurry to judge either of these placements based on the photo above. Especially since you can't really see anything.

I do have to question what was wrong with sticking a cam in that crack on the right. Did you not have enough or the right gear?


Partner oldsalt


Jun 2, 2008, 8:43 PM
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socalclimber wrote:
I do have to question what was wrong with sticking a cam in that crack on the right. Did you not have enough or the right gear?

Right on, socal!

In the conversation/exchange with Jimmy apres climbing, the light went on in my head, and I will be a better gear leader for it. Up until then when I looked for a placement, I zeroed in on the first protectable feature and stopped there. I didn't even realize that I was doing it.

I spotted the hole and my entire focus shifted to that placement. I zipped the curve hex in and thought, "What a neat placement."

I now realize that I need to spot several, if not all, possibilities and target the best for that point in the climb. If I am sketched, the first one might be really attractive. Sometimes, that is the best choice - the one you can get in. I was far from sketched on this 5.6, so I can only plead temporary placement blindness.

Blindness be gone!


knieveltech


Jun 2, 2008, 9:19 PM
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C, none of the above? The thread-through with the nut definitely looks cool but fragile, more like something nifty to leave for your 2nd to chuckle at and clean than actual pro. The chickenhead looks pretty bomber, but what about the horizontal to the left? That looks plenty deep enough for a nice cam (when in doubt, cram a #1 link cam in and keep trucking), tricam, or maybe a hex placement (depending on how kinky you are). The thing on the right looks like a shallow flare, not much of a crack to work with there.


bender


Jun 2, 2008, 9:30 PM
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jimmey right,
the sling relies on 20 to 3o times more mass of that walls stone as compared to that wire

nonethe less that sling could be improved with a bit of cinching up


majid_sabet


Jun 2, 2008, 9:32 PM
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18 kn of webbing around a rock vs a 7 kn of nut in a hole

you do the math


gt29905


Jun 2, 2008, 9:36 PM
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Which route is this?


Upperlimits


Jun 3, 2008, 8:01 AM
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I'll take the sling everytime. I'd take it over anything else there and I'd fall on it all day long without a worry.

That nut is completely sketchy in sandstone. In Granite it might pass. In sandstone it's going to make that rock explode and blow if you fall on it.

I always prefer a slung chickenhead over anything else. Simple and cheap pro. 22kn. It's hard to beat that.

Stay safe,
Upperlimits


sungam


Jun 3, 2008, 8:21 AM
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majid_sabet wrote:
18 kn of webbing around a rock vs a 7 kn of nut in a hole

you do the math
don't be silly, major. niether placement woulhold anywhere near that force, nor would you create it. I've whipped onto a size 1 bd micro wire (2kn) 3 times in a row and it never broke, and I way over 200lbs.

-MagnuS


reg


Jun 3, 2008, 8:23 AM
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hindsight being 20/20 - looks like the hex would have worked in the horizontal as well as it seems to open as one looks left. my first thought was why not both - doesn't look like you were hangin by a pinky lock and had to move. R


jman


Jun 3, 2008, 8:53 AM
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If I had to choose only one I'd take the horn. Assuming this is high enough where the majority of load from a fall is vertical, IMO there just seems to be more rock at the horn to withstand the force.


scotty1974


Jun 3, 2008, 9:02 AM
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It's a little tough to tell from the photo, but I probably would avoid having that 'biner edged on the rock like that. In a perfect world I wouldn't want to whip and be the one in a million chance biner failure. So I would go with the horn or the crack on the right.


majid_sabet


Jun 3, 2008, 9:14 AM
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sungam wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
18 kn of webbing around a rock vs a 7 kn of nut in a hole

you do the math
don't be silly, major. niether placement woulhold anywhere near that force, nor would you create it. I've whipped onto a size 1 bd micro wire (2kn) 3 times in a row and it never broke, and I way over 200lbs.


-MagnuS

I did not say if they can hold that much forces or not but wire vs webbing ( like what he shows). webbing wins every time.


jt512


Jun 3, 2008, 9:34 AM
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majid_sabet wrote:
18 kn of webbing around a rock vs a 7 kn of nut in a hole

you do the math

Ok, but should I divide or subtract?

Jay


jt512


Jun 3, 2008, 9:37 AM
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sungam wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
18 kn of webbing around a rock vs a 7 kn of nut in a hole

you do the math
don't be silly, major. niether placement woulhold anywhere near that force, nor would you create it. I've whipped onto a size 1 bd micro wire (2kn) 3 times in a row and it never broke, and I way over 200lbs.

You can unquestionably generate 7 kN of force on an anchor in a lead fall.

Jay


dingus


Jun 3, 2008, 9:43 AM
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socalclimber wrote:
Hmmm. I wouldn't be in any hurry to judge either of these placements based on the photo above. Especially since you can't really see anything.

Exactly my thoughts.

If the horn was bomber though, I'd go with that (general rule of thumb, not that horn in particular).

I like to save my nuts, nawmean?

Besides, slinging natural pro is just plain fuggin COOL MAN.

DMT


dingus


Jun 3, 2008, 9:47 AM
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oldsalt wrote:
Blindness be gone!

I've always found tunnel vision tendency was strongly influenced by fear and anxeity.

One of the little fear management techniques Arno Illgner speaks about is sorta like... stand up straight, chin up, chest out, eyes open, face relaxed, BE OPEN TO YOUR ENVIRONMENT, be accepting of what you see.'

Or something like that. You get the gist. Opening yourself up to the possibilities in spite of your fears is friggin hard to do.

I would suggest this will be an on-going issue for the rest of your climbing career. When you feel yourself tense and scared, that is when you are most likely to tunnel vision and ignore the wider possibilities around you... when just the opposite is what is necessary.

Cheers
DMT


saxfiend


Jun 3, 2008, 9:49 AM
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Hi Steve -- as you've already surmised, there's plenty enough options for pro just within the narrow frame of the photo that the captured hex was the least desirable. I love placements like that when the rock is solid, but in this case I think your partner is right, it could well have snapped off.

Regarding your concerns about the sling getting worn or cut, it doesn't appear likely to me. However, instead of tying the overhand you have here (or is it a figure 8?), I probably would have girth-hitched the sling around the horn and snugged it up to minimize movement and rubbing. If you've got it extended properly, it's not going to experience such stress anyway.

gt29905 wrote:
Which route is this?
It's got to be Knob Wall (5.6); fun route, eats pro.

JL


redpoint73


Jun 3, 2008, 9:57 AM
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majid_sabet wrote:

I did not say if they can hold that much forces or not but wire vs webbing ( like what he shows). webbing wins every time.

That's not what he shows at all.

I'll take the slung horn anytime. The nut is being held by a very small bridge of rock, and probably not very strong.


krusher4


Jun 3, 2008, 10:05 AM
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on sandstone I would take the horn.


gt29905


Jun 3, 2008, 10:11 AM
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Thanks for answering.Wink


climb_eng


Jun 3, 2008, 11:22 AM
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jman wrote:
If I had to choose only one I'd take the horn. Assuming this is high enough where the majority of load from a fall is vertical, IMO there just seems to be more rock at the horn to withstand the force.

I'd like somebody with a bit of experience to speak to this, but I've always been nervous using horns and huecos as pro. When using a nut, or a cam the rock must take a lot of compressive force, but a relatively low tensile force. On the other hand with a horn, I picture a lot more sheer stress and tensile stress in the rock, and a lower amount of compressive stress.

Well, hard materials such a stone are FAR more likely to fail in sheer/tension then in compression. Isn't therefore your risk that you'll pull the horn off much higher then your risk that a good piece of pro will fail? Is it not the way the rock is stressed rather then the amount of rock that matters?


Partner cracklover


Jun 3, 2008, 11:29 AM
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I'd drop the biggest hex on my rack into the top of that slot on the right and just keep on chugging. Looks like a picture-perfect hex placement.

If all my hexes were too small, I'd thread the horn.

Third choice - cam in one of those cracks.

GO


bigredscowboy


Jun 3, 2008, 11:43 AM
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CAMP Tri-Cam in the horizontal.


majid_sabet


Jun 3, 2008, 11:48 AM
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jt512 wrote:
sungam wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
18 kn of webbing around a rock vs a 7 kn of nut in a hole

you do the math
don't be silly, major. niether placement woulhold anywhere near that force, nor would you create it. I've whipped onto a size 1 bd micro wire (2kn) 3 times in a row and it never broke, and I way over 200lbs.

You can unquestionably generate 7 kN of force on an anchor in a lead fall.

Jay

so getting back to your question

In reply to:
Ok, but should I divide or subtract?

if you could generate 7 kn during fall and your best nut is rated to let's say 10 kn then we subtract 7kn from 18 and I go for the webbing on any days.


fulton


Jun 3, 2008, 12:11 PM
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The horn looks good, but the rigging is sloppy. I'm glad to see you didn't girth hitch the horn, but I'd use the "basket" technique with a 'draw on it instead of knotting webbing. The basket technique will also double the amount of material against the rock -- it will not make it more redundant, just distributed different--better I think.

And clearly, with the crack and the horn right next to the nut placement, it is comparatively junk.


russwalling


Jun 3, 2008, 12:12 PM
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I think someone should place a bolt there. Neither placement looks as good as a big shiny bolt.


knieveltech


Jun 3, 2008, 12:35 PM
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russwalling wrote:
I think someone should place a bolt there. Neither placement looks as good as a big shiny bolt.

Only in WV...


dr_feelgood


Jun 3, 2008, 1:25 PM
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Clip a screamer to either one and I'll whip onto them.


morlebeke


Jun 3, 2008, 1:35 PM
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how can anyone want to trust that nut placement? someone had it right before, it's a joke to place that for your second to laugh at. with such a thin bridge, and like the _eng said earlier rock is great in compression similar to concrete, but you're not only shearing that bridge but putting bending moments in so that'll crack before you even get above that piece if you fell on it I'd guess. maybe it's thicker than it looks... but the highest stress area will be in the bottom of the cross section of that bridge in tensile load only. there's a reason they put steel in a concrete bridge, for the tensile strength.

I'd also girth hitch the horn, quicker more than anything, and simple to clean.


AlexCV


Jun 3, 2008, 1:37 PM
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bigredscowboy wrote:
CAMP Tri-Cam in the horizontal.

My thought exactly. Looks like Anything blue to red could fit and it's nicely featured.


climb_eng


Jun 3, 2008, 1:49 PM
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morlebeke wrote:
how can anyone want to trust that nut placement? someone had it right before, it's a joke to place that for your second to laugh at. with such a thin bridge, and like the _eng said earlier rock is great in compression similar to concrete, but you're not only shearing that bridge but putting bending moments in so that'll crack before you even get above that piece if you fell on it I'd guess. maybe it's thicker than it looks... but the highest stress area will be in the bottom of the cross section of that bridge in tensile load only. there's a reason they put steel in a concrete bridge, for the tensile strength.

I'd also girth hitch the horn, quicker more than anything, and simple to clean.

I wasn't really commenting on THAT nut placement. I was thinking more generally. Given a GOOD nut to a horn, I'd just much rather trust the nut.


MikeSaint


Jun 3, 2008, 1:53 PM
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dr_feelgood wrote:
Clip a screamer to either one and I'll whip onto them.

Those very words came to my mind before anything.

Laugh


knieveltech


Jun 3, 2008, 2:02 PM
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Re: [MikeSaint] Which Would You Fall On? [In reply to]
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MikeSaint wrote:
dr_feelgood wrote:
Clip a screamer to either one and I'll whip onto them.

Those very words came to my mind before anything.

Laugh

LaughLaughLaugh

We need to get some screamers and head out to Moore's then. I think I remember spotting similar features on the far left side of the 1st pitch of Sentinel.

Edited to add: if you die, do I get your rack?


(This post was edited by knieveltech on Jun 3, 2008, 2:03 PM)


socalclimber


Jun 3, 2008, 9:15 PM
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Re: [oldsalt] Which Would You Fall On? [In reply to]
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"I now realize that I need to spot several, if not all, possibilities and target the best for that point in the climb. If I am sketched, the first one might be really attractive. Sometimes, that is the best choice - the one you can get in. I was far from sketched on this 5.6, so I can only plead temporary placement blindness. "

Glad you are "seeing the light". Dingus hit on the tunnel vision problem. I think it should be expanded beyound a bit. One of the things I do when I lead is to take advantage of the easier spots on a route. If I have a good stance, I stop, take a breather, and then do my best to try and evaluate what's coming up. This includes gear I might want ready without searching for it, where the route goes, loose rock or bad flakes etc. Also, I get the added advantage that I get to rest. The last thing in the world you want is to be tired, scared, and desperate regreting that you didn't take a break when you had the chance. That's when tunnel vision can really set in.

Good for you on taking the time to do some analysis on your gear placements.

Robert








Blindness be gone!


curt


Jun 3, 2008, 10:43 PM
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Re: [healyje] Which Would You Fall On? [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
If there was nothing else I'd take the nut - but in this case in an either / or situation I'd take the slung horn every time. if I was worried about the sling on the horn I'd do both and make the nut sacrificial loading a bit before the horn.

Agreed.

Curt


spoon


Jun 3, 2008, 11:33 PM
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Re: [oldsalt] Which Would You Fall On? [In reply to]
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You're all wrong. The obvious solution, as any 13 year old gym bred sport climber can tell you, is to just clip that hole directly with a nice short quick draw. Ideally it would be wiregate to minimize gate whiplash. I mean come on people, safety first.


yokese


Jun 4, 2008, 12:17 AM
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Re: [oldsalt] Which Would You Fall On? [In reply to]
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If the answer has to be one or the other (no hexes, tricams, cams, bolts, screamers, equalization, ladders, pads, etc), I'll choose the horn any time, even rigged as depicted.


evanwish


Jun 4, 2008, 4:25 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Which Would You Fall On? [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
18 kn of webbing around a rock vs a 7 kn of nut in a hole

you do the math

i'm not suggesting anything here... just wondering...
how strong is the "Jammed knot" trick??


Partner happiegrrrl


Jun 17, 2008, 6:35 AM
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Re: [AlexCV] Which Would You Fall On? [In reply to]
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AlexCV wrote:
bigredscowboy wrote:
CAMP Tri-Cam in the horizontal.

My thought exactly. Looks like Anything blue to red could fit and it's nicely featured.

Me too. I'd a gone for my brown tricam first, judging from the photo, saving Lucky Red for later. But Dingus is right; there's something satisfying about lassoing rock.


bigfatrock


Jun 25, 2008, 1:09 PM
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Re: [oldsalt] Which Would You Fall On? [In reply to]
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I am pretty new to trad, but I would definitely take that horn as long as it didn't sound hollow. But as some indicated it does look like there is a place in the crack to the right and the horizontal to the left.


getout87


Jun 25, 2008, 1:28 PM
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Re: [bigfatrock] Which Would You Fall On? [In reply to]
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Just don't fall and you don't have to worry about it. Wink


stymingersfink


Jun 25, 2008, 9:17 PM
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Re: [getout87] Which Would You Fall On? [In reply to]
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know what I'd do?


stymingersfink


Jun 25, 2008, 9:17 PM
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Re: [getout87] Which Would You Fall On? [In reply to]
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I'd avoid the slung horn in favor of a PTFTW.


stymingersfink


Jun 25, 2008, 9:17 PM
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Re: [getout87] Which Would You Fall On? [In reply to]
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'Course, a better option would be to...


stymingersfink


Jun 25, 2008, 9:18 PM
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Re: [getout87] Which Would You Fall On? [In reply to]
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NOT FALL.


gallagher


Jun 25, 2008, 9:35 PM
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Re: [oldsalt] Which Would You Fall On? [In reply to]
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you would have been better served by the sling in any sort of fall! i'm not sure i would even trust the nut for body weight. although i have done this same sort of thing on granite twice i backed up the piece both times and i had much more rock to deal with in the nut placement. remember, redundency is the key to safety. the only thing that could have been done better with the sling would have been to tie the knot so the sling was tighter around the horn. but with out being there and seeing the situation first hand my opinion shouldn't hold too much weight. however on second glance why not a tri-cam or flex sten cam in the horizontal right below it? the nut is the worst possibe point of protection in the picture


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