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Rafajaman
Jun 22, 2008, 12:54 PM
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I was climbing the other day on 'Bears Reach 5.7, East Wall, Lover's Leap, California' when I stood up and my cams hooked on an under cling flake causing my gear loop to RIP OUT of the stitching, throwing my cams 300 ft. to the deck. The move was not dynamic, but rather a static hight step. I would expect climbing harnesses to be better built than this, especially coming from Black Diamond. The harness was a cheaper model ( roughly $50) and only 8 months old. Is this a manufacturing error or a poor design? Not sure.
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RJVoss
Jun 22, 2008, 12:56 PM
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Write a letter to BD and tell them you werent satisfied with their product. Show them the pictures. Odds are, you will get a new harness and some stickers!
Edit: Maybe even some new cams
(This post was edited by RJVoss on Jun 22, 2008, 12:57 PM)
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angry
Jun 22, 2008, 1:00 PM
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I've seen it on trango harnesses that were popular about 10 years ago.
I use Petzl harnesses and the plastic gear loops state something like 5kg on them. That's definately enough to hold cams but not so strong it's unbreakable.
I'm personally not a fan of the Metlious Safe-Tech harness but you would never break it's gear loops.
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josephgdawson
Jun 22, 2008, 1:23 PM
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You must have one hell of a high step!
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minexploration
Jun 22, 2008, 1:26 PM
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I have a BD harness that did the same thing. I have since cut all the loops off of it and use it for a TR harness when friends come to town.
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maldaly
Jun 22, 2008, 3:15 PM
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One more reason to use a gear sling ;-)
We've recently beefed up the gear loops on our harnesses for just this reason.
I'm sure BD will take care of you.
Mal
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WVUCLMBR
Jun 22, 2008, 3:55 PM
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I love that if you say the words "Trango" Malcolm appears as if by magic.
If only all companies had a rc.com rep........
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maldaly
Jun 22, 2008, 3:59 PM
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Every time Trango is mentioned on this forum it sets one of my old mercury fillings to vibrating. I can't ignore it and the only way to make it go away is to post up.
I hate it!!!
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angry
Jun 22, 2008, 4:00 PM
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Like Beatlejuice?
Trango Trango Trango....
Malcolm knows better than to defend or promote his products on this board. He tells it like it is and spreads info. If it convinces you to buy something, well that's your problem.
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stagg54
Jun 22, 2008, 4:14 PM
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angry wrote: Like Beatlejuice? Trango Trango Trango.... Malcolm knows better than to defend or promote his products on this board. He tells it like it is and spreads info. If it convinces you to buy something, well that's your problem.
I've met Mal a couple times at the New River Rendezvous. He seems like a real straight talker. Real nice guy.
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spikeddem
Jun 22, 2008, 7:07 PM
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It says right on the gear loops that they are rated to 0 kN.
Some harnesses have gear loops that are rated to 10 kN . . . at least I'm pretty sure I recall climbing with someone that had them rated to 10 kN. I don't remember what company it was.
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naitch
Jun 22, 2008, 8:16 PM
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spikeddem wrote: It says right on the gear loops that they are rated to 0 kN. Some harnesses have gear loops that are rated to 10 kN . . . at least I'm pretty sure I recall climbing with someone that had them rated to 10 kN. I don't remember what company it was.
It's the Metolius Safe-Tech that Angry mentioned up-thread
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justroberto
Jun 24, 2008, 10:12 AM
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stagg54 wrote: angry wrote: Like Beatlejuice? Trango Trango Trango.... Malcolm knows better than to defend or promote his products on this board. He tells it like it is and spreads info. If it convinces you to buy something, well that's your problem. I've met Mal a couple times at the New River Rendezvous. He seems like a real straight talker. Real nice guy.
We once had a bachelor party for Mal. He ate the entire cake before we could tell him there was a stripper in it.
His poop is used as currency in Argentina and he is the father of every kid on this rc.com. Malcolm Daly is a son of a bitch!
Edited for relevancy:
I've always been a little suspicious of the rubber gear loops on my two bd harnesses. The mental image of half my gear falling off mid-climb makes me stop every time i feel a cam lobe catch on a feature.
(This post was edited by justroberto on Jun 24, 2008, 10:18 AM)
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altelis
Jun 24, 2008, 10:19 AM
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i love how a thread started about how a bd harness gear loop broke turns into a list of accolades for mal/trango.......
says a lot about mal, or a lot about people's trust in bd that a running rant wasn't started....etiher way, weird, huh?
makes you go "mmm"?
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WVUCLMBR
Jun 24, 2008, 10:24 AM
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Kinda creepy, but I posted this pic on myspace and one of our friends said "I didn't know your dad lost his leg".....
I was adopted @ birth and have never met my parents....are you my daddy Mal? and if so can I have my allowance for the last 29 years?
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stymingersfink
Jun 24, 2008, 10:30 AM
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WVUCLMBR wrote: Kinda creepy, but I posted this pic on myspace and one of our friends said "I didn't know your dad lost his leg"..... I was adopted @ birth and have never met my parents....are you my daddy Mal? and if so can I have my allowance for the last 29 years?
...would you have, Mal?
...Mal?
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zeke_sf
Jun 24, 2008, 10:56 AM
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maldaly wrote: One more reason to use a gear sling ;-)
That's what I was thinking!
Although, I tend to place gear on my harness when cleaning, so I'd be in the same boat.
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sidepull
Jun 24, 2008, 11:12 AM
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As mentioned, I'm sure if you brought this to BD's attention that they'll "take care of you." That said, if you're climbing and your harness catches on an undercling wouldn't you rather that the gear loop breaks? The alternative is that you pull yourself off the rock right? Moreover, how common is it that someone executes a high step that forces their gear loop into an undercling? It just sounds really clumsy and noobish to me. Of course, I wasn't there so all I can go on are postings, harmless little postings.
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WVUCLMBR
Jun 24, 2008, 11:18 AM
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You idiot....hookers get paid for sex....my momma was just a slut. And it would have been in Pittsburgh, late summer 1978.
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phillygoat
Jun 24, 2008, 12:04 PM
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angry wrote: I'm personally not a fan of the Metlious Safe-Tech harness but you would never break it's gear loops.
Hey Angry- out of curiosity, what don't you like about the Safe-Tech?
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Rafajaman
Jun 24, 2008, 12:22 PM
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Yeah, I haven't clocked in years of climbing yet. However, if you saw the route you might understand how easy it is to get cams caught ( there are undercling flakes everywhere). Maybe I should rack my cams on the back loops instead of the front ones, or just use a gear sling as several of you have suggested . I returned my harness to the gym I bought it from and have been refunded. I now have a Misty Mountain harness. We'll see what BD has to say about the cams.....
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Gmburns2000
Jun 24, 2008, 12:42 PM
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Rafajaman wrote: Yeah, I haven't clocked in years of climbing yet. However, if you saw the route you might understand how easy it is to get cams caught ( there are undercling flakes everywhere). Maybe I should rack my cams on the back loops instead of the front ones, or just use a gear sling as several of you have suggested . I returned my harness to the gym I bought it from and have been refunded. I now have a Misty Mountain harness. We'll see what BD has to say about the cams.....
I was just on that route a little more than a week or so. I can totally see gear getting caught on all the weird shapes on the flakes. I'm not sure where the high-step would have come from, but even if one did a lieback on the third pitch I could see gear getting caught on the other side of the flake. Bummer about that. You'll like the Misty harness. They make good stuff (not that BD doesn't).
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dingus
Jun 24, 2008, 1:01 PM
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angry wrote: Like Beatlejuice? Trango Trango Trango.... Malcolm knows better than to defend or promote his products on this board. He tells it like it is and spreads info. If it convinces you to buy something, well that's your problem.
Mal is a stand up guy. He's of the mold Chris Harmston used to fill on the old rec.climbing. The guy from Omega Pacific seems to be a stand up guy too.
I appreciate gear mfgs who don't turn every post into a sales pitch and post up what is in effect insider information to the benefit of us all.
Thanks Malcom.
Oh, once decending from Charlotte Dome I butt scootched to the edge of a ledge and then hopped down to a sloping exfoliation slab maybe 5 feet lower.
Only a rear loop of my Misty Mtn harness caught on some knob or something. Suddenly I was dangling there off the back of my harness, 3 feet off the ground. Then just as suddently the thing broke. Some slings went flying and so did I. Luckily my cat-like reflexes (since slowed to slug-like pulsations) prevented me from tumbling down many hundreds of feet of ever steepening exfoliation slab.
Ever since I've been a lot more aware of those gear loops and their strength (and propensity to get hung up on things).
My first couple of harnesses had no gear loops kids! They used to be considered somewhat superfulous, then a luxury and now they are a given.
Go figger.
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Jun 24, 2008, 1:02 PM)
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hafilax
Jun 24, 2008, 1:21 PM
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j_ung wrote: angry wrote: I'm personally not a fan of the Metlious Safe-Tech harness but you would never break it's gear loops. I'm reasonably certain that I'm not going to tie into a gear loop anytime soon, but I bought one years back when I was setting a lot of routes in the local gym. Before then, I had this hideous mental image of holding a bucketful of holds on a gear loop, hearing a pop and getting a bird-s-eye view of 20lbs of plastic braining some hapless little kid. I still use one, but more for its adjustability. That whole 3-D thing works well for me.
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majid_sabet
Jun 24, 2008, 1:25 PM
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I broke gear loop twice while climbing causing all the gear to fall on the ground. On both times I stepped in to a sling of some sort that was hanging from the back of my harness. At least a few times, I stepped in to prussic loop that was on a biner near the center of my harness. Now, I keep all hanging slings short and no more than 10 inches long when coiled. Loosing lead climbing gear on multi-pitch is a disaster and not to mention that it could also hit the belayer.
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sidepull
Jun 24, 2008, 1:46 PM
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Let me clarify my point.
I would have no problem if BD refunded you for the harness, but I would not expect them to refund you for the cams and if they do it's only because they are way nicer than they should be. This sounds like user error more than gear failure. Imagine if I tied something expensive to a gear loop (diamond ring, camera, limited edition star wars action figure with light saber stealthily hidden inside forearm, etc.) - if my climbing made the gear loop catch onto the wall and I then continued to move until the loop broke I'd have a hard time blaming the company for the damaged goods (poor young skywalker - that is why he fails).
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getout87
Jun 24, 2008, 1:50 PM
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sidepull wrote: Let me clarify my point. I would have no problem if BD refunded you for the harness, but I would not expect them to refund you for the cams and if they do it's only because they are way nicer than they should be. This sounds like user error more than gear failure. Imagine if I tied something expensive to a gear loop (diamond ring, camera, limited edition star wars action figure with light saber stealthily hidden inside forearm, etc.) - if my climbing made the gear loop catch onto the wall and I then continued to move until the loop broke I'd have a hard time blaming the company for the damaged goods (poor young skywalker - that is why he fails).
I completely agree. That is pretty dang preposterous to even bring that up with them, I'm pretty sure you will immediately get DB'ed by BD for that one.
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glytch
Jun 24, 2008, 2:11 PM
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sidepull wrote: Let me clarify my point. I would have no problem if BD refunded you for the harness, but I would not expect them to refund you for the cams and if they do it's only because they are way nicer than they should be. This sounds like user error more than gear failure. Imagine if I tied something expensive to a gear loop (diamond ring, camera, limited edition star wars action figure with light saber stealthily hidden inside forearm, etc.) - if my climbing made the gear loop catch onto the wall and I then continued to move until the loop broke I'd have a hard time blaming the company for the damaged goods (poor young skywalker - that is why he fails).
... kindasorta. I see your point re: other objects on gear loops, and I wouldn't go so far as to say that BD is necessarily liable for full damages to the cams, but I don't think that it's totally out of the question to ask. After all, the loops we're talking about are gear loops, designed to have gear attached to them as ya climb. If they fail during their intended usage within the bounds of reasonable force applications, then they're not functioning as advertised...
it's a fine line, of course... how much force is "normal" for a full set of cams + some nuts to apply to a gear loop as you climb? hard to say, but if the loops rip with 20 or 30 lbs of force ( 2x the designed load), then I'd say the manufacturer is partially (or fully) responsible. I assume the force in this case was substantially higher, but until it's clear that an abnormally large force was applied, I don't think BD is fully off the hook. This isn't a totally benign failure - losing half of a rack could be life-threatening in certain circumstances, not to mention the damage the falling gear could cause.
getting back into it,
cheers,
g
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getout87
Jun 24, 2008, 2:15 PM
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glytch wrote: sidepull wrote: Let me clarify my point. I would have no problem if BD refunded you for the harness, but I would not expect them to refund you for the cams and if they do it's only because they are way nicer than they should be. This sounds like user error more than gear failure. Imagine if I tied something expensive to a gear loop (diamond ring, camera, limited edition star wars action figure with light saber stealthily hidden inside forearm, etc.) - if my climbing made the gear loop catch onto the wall and I then continued to move until the loop broke I'd have a hard time blaming the company for the damaged goods (poor young skywalker - that is why he fails). ... kindasorta. I see your point re: other objects on gear loops, and I wouldn't go so far as to say that BD is necessarily liable for full damages to the cams, but I don't think that it's totally out of the question to ask. After all, the loops we're talking about are gear loops, designed to have gear attached to them as ya climb. If they fail during their intended usage within the bounds of reasonable force applications, then they're not functioning as advertised... it's a fine line, of course... how much force is "normal" for a full set of cams + some nuts to apply to a gear loop as you climb? hard to say, but if the loops rip with 20 or 30 lbs of force ( 2x the designed load), then I'd say the manufacturer is partially (or fully) responsible. I assume the force in this case was substantially higher, but until it's clear that an abnormally large force was applied, I don't think BD is fully off the hook. This isn't a totally benign failure - losing half of a rack could be life-threatening in certain circumstances, not to mention the damage the falling gear could cause. getting back into it, cheers, g
The gear loops are made to haul gear up a route, thus they are built strong enough for the gear. Not the weight of the gear + the downward force that stepping up may apply to it if something gets hung.
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stymingersfink
Jun 24, 2008, 2:16 PM
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glytch wrote: sidepull wrote: Let me clarify my point. I would have no problem if BD refunded you for the harness, but I would not expect them to refund you for the cams and if they do it's only because they are way nicer than they should be. This sounds like user error more than gear failure. Imagine if I tied something expensive to a gear loop (diamond ring, camera, limited edition star wars action figure with light saber stealthily hidden inside forearm, etc.) - if my climbing made the gear loop catch onto the wall and I then continued to move until the loop broke I'd have a hard time blaming the company for the damaged goods (poor young skywalker - that is why he fails). ... kindasorta. I see your point re: other objects on gear loops, and I wouldn't go so far as to say that BD is necessarily liable for full damages to the cams, but I don't think that it's totally out of the question to ask. After all, the loops we're talking about are gear loops, designed to have gear attached to them as ya climb. If they fail during their intended usage within the bounds of reasonable force applications, then they're not functioning as advertised... it's a fine line, of course... how much force is "normal" for a full set of cams + some nuts to apply to a gear loop as you climb? hard to say, but if the loops rip with 20 or 30 lbs of force ( 2x the designed load), then I'd say the manufacturer is partially (or fully) responsible. I assume the force in this case was substantially higher, but until it's clear that an abnormally large force was applied, I don't think BD is fully off the hook. This isn't a totally benign failure - losing half of a rack could be life-threatening in certain circumstances, not to mention the damage the falling gear could cause. getting back into it, cheers, g
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sidepull
Jun 24, 2008, 3:38 PM
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PS - it's worth observing that the OP took pains to note that the high step was static, not dynamic. If so, once the cam caught, why not just reverse the move? Why keep stepping? Or did the gear loop fail immediately when the cam became caught?
(i need to add more star wars jokes in my posts - i'm getting to be old and gruntled on this board).
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billcoe_
Jun 24, 2008, 3:51 PM
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phillygoat wrote: angry wrote: I'm personally not a fan of the Metlious Safe-Tech harness but you would never break it's gear loops. Hey Angry- out of curiosity, what don't you like about the Safe-Tech?
I have a Waldo, the big beefy Metolius and it F*ing rules! Phillygoat, I have the Thai guidebook you loaned me ready to return, (I bought a new one so I wouldn't stick the pages together on yours) lets hook up.
One more point: why the hell put the cumberson things on the side at all if you're going to use a gear sling and/or they don't hold up?
Malcom, how about removable gearslings on harnesses? Routes like Epinephrine in Red Rocks or the Steck Salethe call out for a streamlined harness. In the olden times folks often just used a swami to achieve this effect.
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ptlong
Jun 24, 2008, 5:06 PM
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I've always been a little suspicious of those molded plastic gear loops. I've also got a cheap BD harness (kind of a piece of shit) but the loops are plastic tubing over nylon that is stitched into the harness. I think they're stronger.
A gear sling over the shoulder can be dropped in a fall... or just dropped.
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dingus
Jun 24, 2008, 5:50 PM
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ptlong wrote: A gear sling over the shoulder can be dropped in a fall... or just dropped.
Or even better, handed to your partner!
DMT
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russwalling
Jun 24, 2008, 7:20 PM
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FISH Harness story: A guy sent me a long letter once about how he was retreating off of the Leaning Tower, at night, etc. Did the raps to the ground with the haul bag clipped into his device etc..... on the ground, it seems his harness had spun around a bit and in setting it up in the dark he was rapping off of his GEAR LOOP, not the belay loop. RAPPING WITH A HAUL BAG CONNECTED ONLY TO HIS GEAR LOOP!!!!!!! Holy cow!
Just a story, not a plug, and don't F'n order anything because Bill Coe will kick my ass if I'm making anything except his stuff that is way late... oh yeah, and Malcolm is FANTASTIC! He is the real deal. All hail Malcolm!!!
In fact, just in case any of you got the idea you might want to order a FISH Harness... I just discontinued them. Nothing to see here... move along.....
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marde
Jun 25, 2008, 7:52 AM
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billcoe_ wrote:
Malcom, how about removable gearslings on harnesses? Routes like Epinephrine in Red Rocks or the Steck Salethe call out for a streamlined harness. In the olden times folks often just used a swami to achieve this effect.
that's already available
http://www.edelrid.de/...d=253&Itemid=347
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dingus
Jun 25, 2008, 8:02 AM
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russwalling wrote: FISH Harness story: A guy sent me a long letter once about how he was retreating off of the Leaning Tower, at night, etc. Did the raps to the ground with the haul bag clipped into his device etc..... on the ground, it seems his harness had spun around a bit and in setting it up in the dark he was rapping off of his GEAR LOOP, not the belay loop. RAPPING WITH A HAUL BAG CONNECTED ONLY TO HIS GEAR LOOP!!!!!!! Holy cow! Just a story, not a plug, and don't F'n order anything because Bill Coe will kick my ass if I'm making anything except his stuff that is way late... oh yeah, and Malcolm is FANTASTIC! He is the real deal. All hail Malcolm!!! In fact, just in case any of you got the idea you might want to order a FISH Harness... I just discontinued them. Nothing to see here... move along.....
That man Scuffy B, Mr. Smooth on the OWs has been seen of recent sportin a stylish and functonal FISH pack. I'm jealous.
DMT
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Arrogant_Bastard
Jun 25, 2008, 1:00 PM
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j_ung wrote: I'm reasonably certain that I'm not going to tie into a gear loop anytime soon, but I bought one years back when I was setting a lot of routes in the local gym. Before then, I had this hideous mental image of holding a bucketful of holds on a gear loop, hearing a pop and getting a bird-s-eye view of 20lbs of plastic braining some hapless little kid.
Hmmmm, good point. Note to self: wear my BD harness whenever I route set in the gym.
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Rafajaman
Jun 27, 2008, 12:33 PM
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In reply to: Thanks for bringing that up sidepull. Yes it was a static highstep. And yes, the harness loop broke IMMEDIATELY. I didn't even have a split second warning to reverse the move which I obviously would have done. That is why I was surprised that it broke so easily. Also, I didn't write the letter to BD and ask for cams. My gym (where I purchased the harness) sent it back with a note explaining what happened, not asking for a new cams.
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IclimbNAKED
Jul 6, 2008, 8:01 PM
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I have a Petzl harness that is so minimalist that you may forget it has any loops at all. Next best thing, heyyyyy?
I've been reading about this 5kg business, and it all seems very foreign to me. My harness' gear loops are sewn on quite intensely... I still wouldn't be foolish and tie anything into it, but at the same time I don't think they'd rip if I got them caught on anything and then moved with force. I think I'd just get jarred and quickly realize what my lack of awareness was doing for myself.
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mushroom
Jul 17, 2008, 2:09 PM
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I try to make a habits of doing a full look over of my harness before I head out to go climbing. In reality, this is usually just before I head out on a trip, like when I'm packing my bag and getting my gear together, not an everyday thing.
1. look at the belay loop and make sure there are no nicks and the stitching is intact
2. look at the stitching for the gear loops to make sure they are fully attached
3. look at the whole of the piece of webbing that makes up the swami belt for the same things I look for on the belay loop
4. look over the webbing that makes up the leg loops and make sure it isn't dangling by threads
I suppose that if you just stepped up hard enough you could have ripped all the stitching in one go, but it would seem more likely that dragging your harness during some chimney action or something had started mashing the stitching. It goes without saying (but I'll say it just in case) that you just gotta 100% remember that your gear catches on everything all the time and always move with control otherwise you could end up without a rack and out a whole bunch of money.
you're to blame. I don't mean to diss you or anything, but you gotta be responsible about not ripping your gear loops off, they aren't made to be indestructible. If you don't want to worry about them, and/or you find pleasure in offwidths, chimneys, and other ways of dragging your body along the rock then buy a safety tech harness. And as majid said, losing your gear at the wrong place and time could be very dangerous to your health.
<3 Nick
edit: trying to make myself comprehendable
(This post was edited by mushroom on Jul 17, 2008, 3:44 PM)
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