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BD harness gear loop broke; cams fell.
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majid_sabet


Jun 24, 2008, 1:25 PM
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Re: [dingus] BD harness gear loop broke; cams fell. [In reply to]
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I broke gear loop twice while climbing causing all the gear to fall on the ground. On both times I stepped in to a sling of some sort that was hanging from the back of my harness. At least a few times, I stepped in to prussic loop that was on a biner near the center of my harness. Now, I keep all hanging slings short and no more than 10 inches long when coiled. Loosing lead climbing gear on multi-pitch is a disaster and not to mention that it could also hit the belayer.


sidepull


Jun 24, 2008, 1:46 PM
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Re: [Rafajaman] BD harness gear loop broke; cams fell. [In reply to]
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Let me clarify my point.

I would have no problem if BD refunded you for the harness, but I would not expect them to refund you for the cams and if they do it's only because they are way nicer than they should be. This sounds like user error more than gear failure. Imagine if I tied something expensive to a gear loop (diamond ring, camera, limited edition star wars action figure with light saber stealthily hidden inside forearm, etc.) - if my climbing made the gear loop catch onto the wall and I then continued to move until the loop broke I'd have a hard time blaming the company for the damaged goods (poor young skywalker - that is why he fails).


getout87


Jun 24, 2008, 1:50 PM
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Re: [sidepull] BD harness gear loop broke; cams fell. [In reply to]
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sidepull wrote:
Let me clarify my point.

I would have no problem if BD refunded you for the harness, but I would not expect them to refund you for the cams and if they do it's only because they are way nicer than they should be. This sounds like user error more than gear failure. Imagine if I tied something expensive to a gear loop (diamond ring, camera, limited edition star wars action figure with light saber stealthily hidden inside forearm, etc.) - if my climbing made the gear loop catch onto the wall and I then continued to move until the loop broke I'd have a hard time blaming the company for the damaged goods (poor young skywalker - that is why he fails).

I completely agree. That is pretty dang preposterous to even bring that up with them, I'm pretty sure you will immediately get DB'ed by BD for that one.


glytch


Jun 24, 2008, 2:11 PM
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Re: [sidepull] BD harness gear loop broke; cams fell. [In reply to]
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sidepull wrote:
Let me clarify my point.

I would have no problem if BD refunded you for the harness, but I would not expect them to refund you for the cams and if they do it's only because they are way nicer than they should be. This sounds like user error more than gear failure. Imagine if I tied something expensive to a gear loop (diamond ring, camera, limited edition star wars action figure with light saber stealthily hidden inside forearm, etc.) - if my climbing made the gear loop catch onto the wall and I then continued to move until the loop broke I'd have a hard time blaming the company for the damaged goods (poor young skywalker - that is why he fails).


... kindasorta. I see your point re: other objects on gear loops, and I wouldn't go so far as to say that BD is necessarily liable for full damages to the cams, but I don't think that it's totally out of the question to ask. After all, the loops we're talking about are gear loops, designed to have gear attached to them as ya climb. If they fail during their intended usage within the bounds of reasonable force applications, then they're not functioning as advertised...

it's a fine line, of course... how much force is "normal" for a full set of cams + some nuts to apply to a gear loop as you climb? hard to say, but if the loops rip with 20 or 30 lbs of force ( 2x the designed load), then I'd say the manufacturer is partially (or fully) responsible. I assume the force in this case was substantially higher, but until it's clear that an abnormally large force was applied, I don't think BD is fully off the hook. This isn't a totally benign failure - losing half of a rack could be life-threatening in certain circumstances, not to mention the damage the falling gear could cause.

getting back into it,
cheers,
g


getout87


Jun 24, 2008, 2:15 PM
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Re: [glytch] BD harness gear loop broke; cams fell. [In reply to]
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glytch wrote:
sidepull wrote:
Let me clarify my point.

I would have no problem if BD refunded you for the harness, but I would not expect them to refund you for the cams and if they do it's only because they are way nicer than they should be. This sounds like user error more than gear failure. Imagine if I tied something expensive to a gear loop (diamond ring, camera, limited edition star wars action figure with light saber stealthily hidden inside forearm, etc.) - if my climbing made the gear loop catch onto the wall and I then continued to move until the loop broke I'd have a hard time blaming the company for the damaged goods (poor young skywalker - that is why he fails).


... kindasorta. I see your point re: other objects on gear loops, and I wouldn't go so far as to say that BD is necessarily liable for full damages to the cams, but I don't think that it's totally out of the question to ask. After all, the loops we're talking about are gear loops, designed to have gear attached to them as ya climb. If they fail during their intended usage within the bounds of reasonable force applications, then they're not functioning as advertised...

it's a fine line, of course... how much force is "normal" for a full set of cams + some nuts to apply to a gear loop as you climb? hard to say, but if the loops rip with 20 or 30 lbs of force ( 2x the designed load), then I'd say the manufacturer is partially (or fully) responsible. I assume the force in this case was substantially higher, but until it's clear that an abnormally large force was applied, I don't think BD is fully off the hook. This isn't a totally benign failure - losing half of a rack could be life-threatening in certain circumstances, not to mention the damage the falling gear could cause.

getting back into it,
cheers,
g

The gear loops are made to haul gear up a route, thus they are built strong enough for the gear. Not the weight of the gear + the downward force that stepping up may apply to it if something gets hung.


stymingersfink


Jun 24, 2008, 2:16 PM
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Re: [glytch] BD harness gear loop broke; cams fell. [In reply to]
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glytch wrote:
sidepull wrote:
Let me clarify my point.

I would have no problem if BD refunded you for the harness, but I would not expect them to refund you for the cams and if they do it's only because they are way nicer than they should be. This sounds like user error more than gear failure. Imagine if I tied something expensive to a gear loop (diamond ring, camera, limited edition star wars action figure with light saber stealthily hidden inside forearm, etc.) - if my climbing made the gear loop catch onto the wall and I then continued to move until the loop broke I'd have a hard time blaming the company for the damaged goods (poor young skywalker - that is why he fails).


... kindasorta. I see your point re: other objects on gear loops, and I wouldn't go so far as to say that BD is necessarily liable for full damages to the cams, but I don't think that it's totally out of the question to ask. After all, the loops we're talking about are gear loops, designed to have gear attached to them as ya climb. If they fail during their intended usage within the bounds of reasonable force applications, then they're not functioning as advertised...

it's a fine line, of course... how much force is "normal" for a full set of cams + some nuts to apply to a gear loop as you climb? hard to say, but if the loops rip with 20 or 30 lbs of force ( 2x the designed load), then I'd say the manufacturer is partially (or fully) responsible. I assume the force in this case was substantially higher, but until it's clear that an abnormally large force was applied, I don't think BD is fully off the hook. This isn't a totally benign failure - losing half of a rack could be life-threatening in certain circumstances, not to mention the damage the falling gear could cause.

getting back into it,
cheers,
g
wrong. if the gear loop just spontaneously disintegrated maybe, but high-stepping forcefully while your gear is hung up falls more into the line of "User Error" in my book. Learn from it, don't do it again. The fact that they are willing to replace a harness damaged by "user error" says something, but give a man enough rope...


sidepull


Jun 24, 2008, 3:38 PM
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Re: BD harness gear loop broke; cams fell. [In reply to]
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PS - it's worth observing that the OP took pains to note that the high step was static, not dynamic. If so, once the cam caught, why not just reverse the move? Why keep stepping? Or did the gear loop fail immediately when the cam became caught?

(i need to add more star wars jokes in my posts - i'm getting to be old and gruntled on this board).


billcoe_


Jun 24, 2008, 3:51 PM
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Re: [phillygoat] BD harness gear loop broke; cams fell. [In reply to]
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phillygoat wrote:
angry wrote:
I'm personally not a fan of the Metlious Safe-Tech harness but you would never break it's gear loops.

Hey Angry- out of curiosity, what don't you like about the Safe-Tech?

I have a Waldo, the big beefy Metolius and it F*ing rules! Phillygoat, I have the Thai guidebook you loaned me ready to return, (I bought a new one so I wouldn't stick the pages together on yours) lets hook up.

One more point: why the hell put the cumberson things on the side at all if you're going to use a gear sling and/or they don't hold up?


Malcom, how about removable gearslings on harnesses?
Routes like Epinephrine in Red Rocks or the Steck Salethe call out for a streamlined harness. In the olden times folks often just used a swami to achieve this effect.


ptlong


Jun 24, 2008, 5:06 PM
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Re: [billcoe_] BD harness gear loop broke; cams fell. [In reply to]
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I've always been a little suspicious of those molded plastic gear loops. I've also got a cheap BD harness (kind of a piece of shit) but the loops are plastic tubing over nylon that is stitched into the harness. I think they're stronger.

A gear sling over the shoulder can be dropped in a fall... or just dropped.


dingus


Jun 24, 2008, 5:50 PM
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Re: [ptlong] BD harness gear loop broke; cams fell. [In reply to]
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ptlong wrote:
A gear sling over the shoulder can be dropped in a fall... or just dropped.

Or even better, handed to your partner!

DMT


russwalling


Jun 24, 2008, 7:20 PM
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Re: [dingus] BD harness gear loop broke; cams fell. [In reply to]
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FISH Harness story: A guy sent me a long letter once about how he was retreating off of the Leaning Tower, at night, etc. Did the raps to the ground with the haul bag clipped into his device etc..... on the ground, it seems his harness had spun around a bit and in setting it up in the dark he was rapping off of his GEAR LOOP, not the belay loop. RAPPING WITH A HAUL BAG CONNECTED ONLY TO HIS GEAR LOOP!!!!!!! Holy cow!

Just a story, not a plug, and don't F'n order anything because Bill Coe will kick my ass if I'm making anything except his stuff that is way late... oh yeah, and Malcolm is FANTASTIC! He is the real deal. All hail Malcolm!!!

In fact, just in case any of you got the idea you might want to order a FISH Harness... I just discontinued them. Nothing to see here... move along.....


marde


Jun 25, 2008, 7:52 AM
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Re: [billcoe_] BD harness gear loop broke; cams fell. [In reply to]
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billcoe_ wrote:


Malcom, how about removable gearslings on harnesses?
Routes like Epinephrine in Red Rocks or the Steck Salethe call out for a streamlined harness. In the olden times folks often just used a swami to achieve this effect.

that's already available
http://www.edelrid.de/...d=253&Itemid=347


dingus


Jun 25, 2008, 8:02 AM
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Re: [russwalling] BD harness gear loop broke; cams fell. [In reply to]
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russwalling wrote:
FISH Harness story: A guy sent me a long letter once about how he was retreating off of the Leaning Tower, at night, etc. Did the raps to the ground with the haul bag clipped into his device etc..... on the ground, it seems his harness had spun around a bit and in setting it up in the dark he was rapping off of his GEAR LOOP, not the belay loop. RAPPING WITH A HAUL BAG CONNECTED ONLY TO HIS GEAR LOOP!!!!!!! Holy cow!

Just a story, not a plug, and don't F'n order anything because Bill Coe will kick my ass if I'm making anything except his stuff that is way late... oh yeah, and Malcolm is FANTASTIC! He is the real deal. All hail Malcolm!!!

In fact, just in case any of you got the idea you might want to order a FISH Harness... I just discontinued them. Nothing to see here... move along.....

That man Scuffy B, Mr. Smooth on the OWs has been seen of recent sportin a stylish and functonal FISH pack. I'm jealous.

DMT


Arrogant_Bastard


Jun 25, 2008, 1:00 PM
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Re: [j_ung] BD harness gear loop broke; cams fell. [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
I'm reasonably certain that I'm not going to tie into a gear loop anytime soon, but I bought one years back when I was setting a lot of routes in the local gym. Before then, I had this hideous mental image of holding a bucketful of holds on a gear loop, hearing a pop and getting a bird-s-eye view of 20lbs of plastic braining some hapless little kid.

Hmmmm, good point. Note to self: wear my BD harness whenever I route set in the gym.


billcoe_


Jun 26, 2008, 11:25 AM
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Re: [russwalling] BD harness gear loop broke; cams fell. [In reply to]
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russwalling wrote:
FISH Harness story:

FISH: accept no other. Thanks for remembering me BTW.



Damn I just plain forgot you made those great harness's Russ, I know someone who could use one, I'll send him along next time I see him. He's got like a 20 + year old one which he thinks is a Wild Country, that looks exactly like your Wall Harness. It may be one of yours.

Certainly not the Todd Skinner model, it still looks good after all these years and this guy is out and getting mileage on rock all the time.


(This post was edited by billcoe_ on Jun 26, 2008, 11:27 AM)


Rafajaman


Jun 27, 2008, 12:33 PM
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Re: [sidepull] BD harness gear loop broke; cams fell. [In reply to]
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In reply to:

Thanks for bringing that up sidepull. Yes it was a static highstep. And yes, the harness loop broke IMMEDIATELY. I didn't even have a split second warning to reverse the move which I obviously would have done. That is why I was surprised that it broke so easily. Also, I didn't write the letter to BD and ask for cams. My gym (where I purchased the harness) sent it back with a note explaining what happened, not asking for a new cams.


IclimbNAKED


Jul 6, 2008, 8:01 PM
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Re: [billcoe_] BD harness gear loop broke; cams fell. [In reply to]
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I have a Petzl harness that is so minimalist that you may forget it has any loops at all. Next best thing, heyyyyy?

I've been reading about this 5kg business, and it all seems very foreign to me. My harness' gear loops are sewn on quite intensely... I still wouldn't be foolish and tie anything into it, but at the same time I don't think they'd rip if I got them caught on anything and then moved with force. I think I'd just get jarred and quickly realize what my lack of awareness was doing for myself.


mushroom


Jul 17, 2008, 2:09 PM
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Re: [Rafajaman] BD harness gear loop broke; cams fell. [In reply to]
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I try to make a habits of doing a full look over of my harness before I head out to go climbing. In reality, this is usually just before I head out on a trip, like when I'm packing my bag and getting my gear together, not an everyday thing.

1. look at the belay loop and make sure there are no nicks and the stitching is intact
2. look at the stitching for the gear loops to make sure they are fully attached
3. look at the whole of the piece of webbing that makes up the swami belt for the same things I look for on the belay loop
4. look over the webbing that makes up the leg loops and make sure it isn't dangling by threads

I suppose that if you just stepped up hard enough you could have ripped all the stitching in one go, but it would seem more likely that dragging your harness during some chimney action or something had started mashing the stitching. It goes without saying (but I'll say it just in case) that you just gotta 100% remember that your gear catches on everything all the time and always move with control otherwise you could end up without a rack and out a whole bunch of money.

you're to blame. I don't mean to diss you or anything, but you gotta be responsible about not ripping your gear loops off, they aren't made to be indestructible. If you don't want to worry about them, and/or you find pleasure in offwidths, chimneys, and other ways of dragging your body along the rock then buy a safety tech harness. And as majid said, losing your gear at the wrong place and time could be very dangerous to your health.

<3 Nick

edit: trying to make myself comprehendable


(This post was edited by mushroom on Jul 17, 2008, 3:44 PM)

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