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NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!!
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jaablink


Aug 8, 2008, 7:47 AM
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NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!!
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New bolts on an easily trad protect able wall below a crack. This is already a touchy area for access and this climb in particular is easily protectable using passive means. Therefore, I am going to clip them before they draw further attention. A difficult to protect face climb would be more appropriate to place bolt protection, a crack climb is inappropriate for bolting especially in an area that is mostly trad climbed. Also, before bolting, it is standard etiquette to gain permission from landowners or are developers as bolts are essentially defacement. This is an friendly FYI for someone who is obviously a novice.


troutboy


Aug 8, 2008, 8:29 AM
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Re: [jaablink] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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jaablink wrote:
Therefore, I am going to clip them before they draw further attention.

I think you mean chopped.


jaablink wrote:
This is an friendly FYI for someone who is obviously a novice.

Clipped vs chopped. Novice ? Pot----->Kettle.

Or maybe you're just so pissed you had a brain freeze. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to you on this.

TS


jaablink


Aug 8, 2008, 8:47 AM
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Re: [troutboy] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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Never has it been my strong suit. (writing) -but yes, Infuriated , you get the gist.


fresh


Aug 8, 2008, 8:52 AM
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Re: [jaablink] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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jaablink wrote:
I am going to clip them before they draw further attention.
hahahaha... sorry for being a d-bag by pointing this out for the second time, but it's just such a marvelous typo.

out of curiosity, what area?


jaablink


Aug 8, 2008, 9:14 AM
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Re: [fresh] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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They were placed on a line I often solo in NEPA


debaser655321


Aug 8, 2008, 9:15 AM
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Re: [jaablink] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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Before you chop bolts talk to the person that put up the bolts. Is this their route, did they have the FA? If someone retro bolted the route, ask if they spoke to the FA climber or if they would like their hangers back. Don't do anything if those are not your bolts on your route.


Valarc


Aug 8, 2008, 9:20 AM
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Re: [jaablink] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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Chopping without gathering more information is just as much of a douchebag move as bolting without gathering more information.

Don't start a bolt war just because you are pissed off - talk to the locals, find out who had the FA, ask if they approved the bolts. Hell, even talk to the land managers and see if they approved any bolting on the property.


jaablink


Aug 8, 2008, 9:28 AM
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Re: [debaser655321] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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 I have the FA. I spent years cleaning this wall , I know every hold , hole, bump.....on it.I now solo it often, as well as every rout on the entire wall for training instead of going to a gym.


the_climber


Aug 8, 2008, 9:34 AM
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Re: [jaablink] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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Had the same thing happen last year on a crag we developed.
If like us you ar ethe FA/Developer of the crag, Time to pull the crowbar out.


jaablink


Aug 8, 2008, 9:35 AM
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Re: [Valarc] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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they were not approved... i did check with the grounds keeper who's son i saved from drowning 2 years ago....i am a local....the local gear shop where the owner and i grew up together and all the other locals are looking and listening to find the bolter....


tedman


Aug 8, 2008, 9:50 AM
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Re: [jaablink] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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So I feel like this is a troll, but I'll bite. Who gives a flying fuck? i really dont understand why everyone seems to get their knickers in a twist when people bolt things. If you really dont like the bolts, then dont use them, its as simple as that. Other people who might not be as experienced or have the $ for a rack right now will appreciate them I'm sure. And please, dont spew the line about bolts being unsightly, I don't believe it for a second. Do you get all puffed up when you see some stuck gear? 'OMG ITS UGLY< I MUST REMOVE IT FOR THE FENG SHWAY OF THE ROUTEZ!'. No, of course you dont, you remove it because you are a greedy bastard who wants it for himself (and who wouldnt?). Unless I'm missing something (and I could be, because I'm not a grizzled 40 year climbing veteran), the only reason people get all pissed off is because the elite and exclusive trad club that had all rights to unbolted lines now has to _share_. holy flying dogshit! people not as dedicated as me arn't allowed on my lines! get off gumby! You must have a swinging dick this long to get on my trad route!

Get over yourself! does it really detract from your massive ego that sport climbers can now enjoy the same routes? are you that fucking selfish?

And yes, I do climb trad. Not as hard as my sport grade but I've only been at it for the summer. So yeah, I do both.


crimpandgo


Aug 8, 2008, 9:53 AM
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Re: [tedman] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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tedman wrote:
So I feel like this is a troll, but I'll bite. Who gives a flying fuck? i really dont understand why everyone seems to get their knickers in a twist when people bolt things. If you really dont like the bolts, then dont use them, its as simple as that. Other people who might not be as experienced or have the $ for a rack right now will appreciate them I'm sure. And please, dont spew the line about bolts being unsightly, I don't believe it for a second. Do you get all puffed up when you see some stuck gear? 'OMG ITS UGLY< I MUST REMOVE IT FOR THE FENG SHWAY OF THE ROUTEZ!'. No, of course you dont, you remove it because you are a greedy bastard who wants it for himself (and who wouldnt?). Unless I'm missing something (and I could be, because I'm not a grizzled 40 year climbing veteran), the only reason people get all pissed off is because the elite and exclusive trad club that had all rights to unbolted lines now has to _share_. holy flying dogshit! people not as dedicated as me arn't allowed on my lines! get off gumby! You must have a swinging dick this long to get on my trad route!

Get over yourself! does it really detract from your massive ego that sport climbers can now enjoy the same routes? are you that fucking selfish?

And yes, I do climb trad. Not as hard as my sport grade but I've only been at it for the summer. So yeah, I do both.

Hmmm your post sounds more like TROLL ... actually Tongue


jrathfon


Aug 8, 2008, 10:20 AM
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Re: [tedman] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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tedman wrote:
So I feel like this is a troll, but I'll bite. Who gives a flying fuck? i really dont understand why everyone seems to get their knickers in a twist when people bolt things. If you really dont like the bolts, then dont use them, its as simple as that. Other people who might not be as experienced or have the $ for a rack right now will appreciate them I'm sure. And please, dont spew the line about bolts being unsightly, I don't believe it for a second. Do you get all puffed up when you see some stuck gear? 'OMG ITS UGLY< I MUST REMOVE IT FOR THE FENG SHWAY OF THE ROUTEZ!'. No, of course you dont, you remove it because you are a greedy bastard who wants it for himself (and who wouldnt?). Unless I'm missing something (and I could be, because I'm not a grizzled 40 year climbing veteran), the only reason people get all pissed off is because the elite and exclusive trad club that had all rights to unbolted lines now has to _share_. holy flying dogshit! people not as dedicated as me arn't allowed on my lines! get off gumby! You must have a swinging dick this long to get on my trad route!

Get over yourself! does it really detract from your massive ego that sport climbers can now enjoy the same routes? are you that fucking selfish?

And yes, I do climb trad. Not as hard as my sport grade but I've only been at it for the summer. So yeah, I do both.

i'll bite, so we should just add handi-cap access to all pristine areas, mountains, etc. so that all can appreciate spoiled beauty?

we should also dumb down challenges for the less committed in the sport? if someone reallllllly wants and/or needs to climb a line, they will find a way (buy a rack, borrow a rack, etc.) or, they will just find another line or crag.

bolts and fixed gear are defacements. ask a non-climbing nature enthusiast what they think of about all the chalk, hanging draws, bolts, tat, cliff-top and bottom erosion. then ask a private land-owner how they feel about the bolts added to their property when they gave no such permission.

climbing on private property is a priviledge, not a right. you should always behave as such. if you disagree, then you should not be granted this priviledge.

p.s. mine's longer.


jaablink


Aug 8, 2008, 10:22 AM
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Re: [tedman] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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the wall is no more than 60’ in its high spot. IT CAN be top roped. Or if you have the balls and are confident and competent in your ability SOLO IT....
I have my own bolts. I don‘t need someone else’s that will be destroyed when I yank them. In the past I have been contracted to develop private crags in the area (beautiful face red rock in old queries) I replace old unsafe face climb bolts, "on request" by the original developer who does not have time to do it himself because is working on new project outside the area.
As for gear , I have my own.
Go fish


curtis_g


Aug 8, 2008, 10:26 AM
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Re: [crimpandgo] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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crimpandgo wrote:
tedman wrote:
So I feel like this is a troll, but I'll bite. Who gives a flying fuck? i really dont understand why everyone seems to get their knickers in a twist when people bolt things. If you really dont like the bolts, then dont use them, its as simple as that. Other people who might not be as experienced or have the $ for a rack right now will appreciate them I'm sure. And please, dont spew the line about bolts being unsightly, I don't believe it for a second. Do you get all puffed up when you see some stuck gear? 'OMG ITS UGLY< I MUST REMOVE IT FOR THE FENG SHWAY OF THE ROUTEZ!'. No, of course you dont, you remove it because you are a greedy bastard who wants it for himself (and who wouldnt?). Unless I'm missing something (and I could be, because I'm not a grizzled 40 year climbing veteran), the only reason people get all pissed off is because the elite and exclusive trad club that had all rights to unbolted lines now has to _share_. holy flying dogshit! people not as dedicated as me arn't allowed on my lines! get off gumby! You must have a swinging dick this long to get on my trad route!

Get over yourself! does it really detract from your massive ego that sport climbers can now enjoy the same routes? are you that fucking selfish?

And yes, I do climb trad. Not as hard as my sport grade but I've only been at it for the summer. So yeah, I do both.

Hmmm your post sounds more like TROLL ... actually Tongue


Agreed, he sounds like the troll. It's rare that a case like this surfaces on rc.com, but this dude has the FA and developed a lot of the crag, it sounds like. He talked to the land owner and no one wants the bolts there. They were unwelcome bolts to begin with.

Sounds like case closed to me. It's your FA and you talked to the land owner and have other locals' consensus. Done deal.


delila99


Aug 8, 2008, 10:41 AM
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Re: [jrathfon] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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there's very little trad climbing in Bosnia, mainly because the rock is inaccessible due to mine fields.. (there's one crag right outside of sarajevo, and cliffs near Pale where trad climbing is possible)

i am so not qualified to say anything here, but the whole animosity between trad & sport climbers baffles me a bit. maybe i'm naive, but i'm in awe of all climbers who climb hard, sport or trad. trad climbers are friggin' badasses (it takes an inordinate amount of guts to place your own gear, trust it, and climb hard)... but so are sport climbers with their gymnastic feats... i dunno... hats off to both... it's be nice if people weren't so elitist, that's all...

just my 2c...


tedman


Aug 8, 2008, 10:43 AM
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Re: [jrathfon] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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Heres my point, why do YOU care if less committed climbers now have access? How does that degrade from YOUR experience? And if bolting a line makes it so a wheelchair bound climber can get up it, then hell yes bolt it!! I'd love to see that and be cheering them the fuck on the whole time!

Chalk, bolts, hanging draws (I'm assuming you mean the exceedingly few permanent draws installed on routes and not project draws). Seriously, defacements? thats your main point? The erosion, I'll give you that. Better access=more people=more erosion. But is that really YOUR reason for not liking bolts on your favorite trad route? Sure seems like we are worried about it getting popular, and we dont like to share now do we?

And ok, the 12guage wielding land owners do have a right to what goes on on their property, this is amerika, fuck yeah! so trespassing is still trespassing. But really, if we take away all the popularity that bolting would bring to classic routes, all the property owners' angst, when you see a bolt on your trad line, what are the real reasons that you get pissed? Is it really the tree hugging hippie in each of us whose spirit is dampend because of the bruising to mother nature's fragile essence, or is it our ego that cant stand the thought that we put in all this work to be able to climb this route this way, and now some punkass 12 year old with a rope and a bunch of draws can now do the same thing in a much less committing fasion?


jrathfon


Aug 8, 2008, 10:46 AM
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Re: [delila99] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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the case is not a question of elitism or trad vs. sport. it's violation of first ascent ethics, a route, private property, and land owner relations. with no ethics, we could just blow the cliff up or cover it in trash or graffiti. dumbing everything down would lead no trad climbing. both mediums exist for their intended purposes, and typically can coexist in harmony. however there is a time and a place for both styles. in this case, there was no style, just blatant disregard for an area. i would not consider soloing as a viable ascent option, but the OP said the gear is reasonable, not to mention its a trad crag with it's own set of local ethics, and there are truly the ones that matter.


patmay81


Aug 8, 2008, 10:50 AM
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damn, sounds like any climbing in Bosnia is badass! Low ball bouldering around mine fields is way more ballsy than even the hardest most runout trad climb!


shockabuku


Aug 8, 2008, 10:56 AM
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Re: [troutboy] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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troutboy wrote:
jaablink wrote:
Therefore, I am going to clip them before they draw further attention.

I think you mean chopped.


jaablink wrote:
This is an friendly FYI for someone who is obviously a novice.

Clipped vs chopped. Novice ? Pot----->Kettle.

Or maybe you're just so pissed you had a brain freeze. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to you on this.

TS

Hey, maybe he meant clipped like in the Sopranos. Like whacked, hit, you know, killed.


jrathfon


Aug 8, 2008, 10:57 AM
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Re: [tedman] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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You advocated adding bolts for increased access. I was merely pointing out that your logic can be extended. If we are going to add bolts to trad lines so that all can enjoy, then why don't we add handi-capped access to remote alpine waterfalls? how about everest? (wait, no, that's been done) my point was merely, how come you, mr. elitist sporto, (look i can put you on your high horse and call you elitist as well), need your routes to be bolted in order to climb, that's mighty elitist requiring all of your routes to have bolts, why not save some lines for people who prefer other styles? maybe the trad climbers aren't as sporty and gymnastic as you, and maybe they can't pull down as hard. should we deny them of routes so you can have your precious bolted lines?

of course not, it's silly either way to claim routes in honor of a style. styles coexist, some crags have been developed as one or the other, there are typically many good reasons, no placements, an abundance of placements, loose rock, run-outs, etc. what does matter is the local community. what style do they prefer? what style is the accepted style at the crag? that's what to follow.

why don't i just walk into a gym and say that my accepted style is slopers, and change all routes i want to climb to be all slopers, then yell elitists at the crimp fanatics who all get their crotchety panties in a twist. i know, cause that's dumb. i walked into a scene where i am not part of the community and changed pre-established things to meet my needs, who is elitist?


jaablink


Aug 8, 2008, 10:58 AM
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It is because of people with your attitude that create climbing access issues. The lack of traditional ethics. You are probably one of them who hangdog and rest on the gear (take !Take! take!). Its ground up and leave no trace here as it is in many other places too. Putting a bolt on an easy trad protect-able line is criminal. Thank God there are a great deal more climbers who hold value to a true traditional ethic.


delila99


Aug 8, 2008, 11:10 AM
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In reply to:
damn, sounds like any climbing in Bosnia is badass! Low ball bouldering around mine fields is way more ballsy than even the hardest most runout trad climb!

Smile we actually did have to navigate around a minefield on our last bouldering adventure. fun times...

this discussion is best left to those qualified... i surely am not...

play nice kids Tongue


jrathfon


Aug 8, 2008, 11:14 AM
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delila99 wrote:
In reply to:
damn, sounds like any climbing in Bosnia is badass! Low ball bouldering around mine fields is way more ballsy than even the hardest most runout trad climb!

Smile we actually did have to navigate around a minefield on our last bouldering adventure. fun times...

this discussion is best left to those qualified... i surely am not...

play nice kids Tongue

at least it's arid there right?

check out our last month (this will only make sense today):

http://radar.weather.gov/radar.php?rid=ENX&product=NCR&overlay=11101111&loop=yes

thunderstorms, thunderstorms, thunderstorms! woosah! we've already gotten our years supply of rain and then some, it's only the beginning of august!


Valarc


Aug 8, 2008, 11:17 AM
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jrathfon wrote:
the case is not a question of elitism or trad vs. sport. it's violation of first ascent ethics, a route, private property, and land owner relations.

I haven't decided yet whether I agree with that statement in general, but in this case I would almost certainly say it's a question of EGO.

If the OP spends any more time spraying about soloing that cliff, he's going to turn into a skunk.


jrathfon


Aug 8, 2008, 11:49 AM
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Valarc wrote:
jrathfon wrote:
the case is not a question of elitism or trad vs. sport. it's violation of first ascent ethics, a route, private property, and land owner relations.

I haven't decided yet whether I agree with that statement in general, but in this case I would almost certainly say it's a question of EGO.

If the OP spends any more time spraying about soloing that cliff, he's going to turn into a skunk.

i am sorry, but i will absolutely never agree with a bolt next to a crack. a bolt's lifetime? 25 years, the crack's lifetime? however long that rock is there. why drill a hole that can never be fixed when you can simply place gear there, then take it with you when you're done? cause you're too cheap?

why do you not subsribe to leave-no-trace ethics as much as you can? not living to this example is like not recycling, denying global-warming, driving an SUV for commuting on a highway cause it looks cool, leaving lights on in an unoccupied house or room, littering.

nice shiny safe bolts on every line would be sterile and boring, sure it'd be convenient and safe. so would a 7-11 in your front yard.

why don't we make doctorates easy enough for everyone to get? why don't we level all hills so nobody has to work to get to the top?

get off your high horse and stop calling everyone elitist, in that situation the only elitist is the name thrower.

and yes, blabbing about soloing does not make you cool. but throwing a bolt next to a crack is also very lame.


jaablink


Aug 8, 2008, 12:01 PM
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Solos came last.I cleaned them. I top roped them first . Then trad , now I have climbed each line hundreds if not thousands of times. Instead of all the cumbersome gear I just solo it all and every move feels like a 7(maybe 7 is my max grade gym boy). Its like good morning weight training routine - Perfect & precise weight training(perfect practice makes perfect… J ). Much better than a gym .

Its raining here now. This afternoon they are coming out. I’m pissed ,the locals are pissed, and this is causing drama between the owners and the climbers, as I know both sides well. When the bolter is identified , the community here will deal with him. (problem : unwanted bolts by above parties…. solution : remove bolts and fill holes)

I am just putting it out there. Hoping this post is read before someone else has the bright idea to do something stupid like this again. (((lines that can be protected by passive means should be done so…. Bolts on faces that are otherwise unprotect -able “X” are acceptable only by rules and ethics of that area. Sport has its own areas around here. The bolts were expert placed and are maintained , the lines are all with few exceptions and the walls are in general face. So even the sport crags lack bolts on the crack line. This is a common ethic in the area)))Learn to Respect common ethics


billcoe_


Aug 8, 2008, 12:07 PM
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Do it.

Tedman, come back after you turn 13.


joeforte


Aug 8, 2008, 12:08 PM
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Re: [jaablink] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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Where is this crack located?


jaablink


Aug 8, 2008, 12:20 PM
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Re: [joeforte] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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why have you been bolting?


shockabuku


Aug 8, 2008, 12:29 PM
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Re: [joeforte] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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joeforte wrote:
Where is this crack located?

tedman's back yard?


Valarc


Aug 8, 2008, 12:38 PM
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Re: [shockabuku] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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I'd just like to say I find the words being put into my mouth to be quite hilarious.

I've not really formed an opinion on either side of the debate yet - I see some points that bolt haters make, and I understand some of the arguments made by people who want to bolt the shit out of everything. I think some bolt advocates are being sissies who want to bring everything down to their levels and have no respect for history, and I think some bolt haters are elitist douchebags who stand in a big circle and jerk each other off.

In general, I think it's too complicated an issue to form a simple opinion, and so I find it quite entertaining when people on either side of the debate assign such an opinion to me for the sake of arguing.


tedman


Aug 8, 2008, 12:58 PM
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Re: [jaablink] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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I still dont see what stops you from climbing the line without using the bolts. No one is forcing you to use them, and its not like they get in the way if they are placed halfway intelligently. Having bolts does not stop anyone from climbing from a purely trad perspective. If they get distracted by the bolts and end up clipping a few because they were sketched out, well thats their own fault for not having enough focus and willpower to complete the climb in the traditional way they intended (if that is the case).

And if you are going to use slippery slopes with me, then as far as your leave no trace, well then shouldnt you just not be climbing at all? you erode the poor earth every time you make an approach, you polish each hand and foothold every time you use them. Holy christ, eventually every mountain everywhere will be nothing more than polished lumps of worthless goo!

No, its all about whats acceptible to each individual. All I'm trying to argue is that most people bitching and moaning about new bolts are doing so from a purely selfish standpoint. They dont want people who have put in less effort than them to be able to attain the same climbs. Yes they bitch and moan about erosion and asthetics and all that crap, but really for 92% of them, they are saying this because thats what was said to them, and it sounds good-they can keep the gumbies away from themselves AND not admit to being a selfish asshole. Now they are in the elite trad club and want to be just like daddy tradpants who taught them everything, so they continue spewing the lines without actually stopping to consider if thats how they truely feel themselves. Yes, these lines might even be partly true, just like your last girlfriend ended things because she felt like maintaining a long distance relationship was too hard (and it was), but most of it came from the fact that she couldnt stand the sight of you anymore and would rather be sucking on johnies dick instead. What did she tell you and herself? well the distance thing of course, who wants to admit to themselves or anyone else that they are a selfish prick?

Now of course I dont expect anyone here to, clearly everyone who slightly identifies with this has raised shields and loaded torpedoes, and maybe even fired a few (really? 13? cmon, you can do better, this is the internet!). And I guess its my fault for coming off so strong, but it just gets me when people spew forth massive loads of crap and everyone just kind of goes 'oh he sounds like he knows what hes doing, I'll just agree'. F-that.

And no, I'm not a gym rat or a sport boy. I climb it all and love all of it (except bouldering, dunno, just dont get it). I love trad and plan to do a ton more. I also love sport, its great when you want to push grades without having to worry so much about bodily harm. I also climb at the gym because, well, I work, so I cant get out in the middle of the week.

So no really, please enlighten me if I am wrong. Tell me why, REALLY why, you or I should be enraged at the sight of bolts next to a perfect crack.


Partner lwilson


Aug 8, 2008, 1:06 PM
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Re: [tedman] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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tedman wrote:
but most of it came from the fact that she couldnt stand the sight of you anymore and would rather be sucking on johnies dick instead.

A little off the subject...but really, you could have made your point with a better example, or even better choice of words. Just saying. Ok, back to everyone bitching about bolts....


fresh


Aug 8, 2008, 1:09 PM
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Re: [Valarc] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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the only reason I can see for having ethics in climbing is so that the next generation can enjoy it the same way we do. generally, the more we bolt, the more the experience is compromised. some bolting is necessary for safety, no doubt. but climbing as a hobby is young. bolting is younger. 100 years from now, how are crags gonna look if people can't deterred from bolting? 300 years?

we only get one shot with our rocks.


jrathfon


Aug 8, 2008, 1:32 PM
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Re: [tedman] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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homer simpson wrote:
Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. 14% of people know that.

tedman wrote:
I still dont see what stops you from climbing the line without using the bolts. No one is forcing you to use them, and its not like they get in the way if they are placed halfway intelligently. Having bolts does not stop anyone from climbing from a purely trad perspective. If they get distracted by the bolts and end up clipping a few because they were sketched out, well thats their own fault for not having enough focus and willpower to complete the climb in the traditional way they intended (if that is the case).

Alright, a) that argument is assinine. and there is no b). you are right, you don't have to clip the bolts, but it's sort of like having unprotected sex while the condom is sitting right there beside you on the bedstand. just stupid.

tedman wrote:
And if you are going to use slippery slopes with me,

I haven't thrown sh!t yet, but I can start if you'd like.

tedman wrote:
then as far as your leave no trace, well then shouldnt you just not be climbing at all? you erode the poor earth every time you make an approach, you polish each hand and foothold every time you use them. Holy christ, eventually every mountain everywhere will be nothing more than polished lumps of worthless goo!

No, its all about whats acceptible to each individual.

Absolutely correct. We are all going to climb, we are all going to drive to the store, we are all going to use a lightbulb at night, we are all contributing to global warming. When you are aware of this you're an ass if you don't try to conciously minimize your impact.

tedman wrote:
All I'm trying to argue is that most people bitching and moaning about new bolts are doing so from a purely selfish standpoint. They dont want people who have put in less effort than them to be able to attain the same climbs. Yes they bitch and moan about erosion and asthetics and all that crap, but really for 92% of them, they are saying this because thats what was said to them, and it sounds good-they can keep the gumbies away from themselves AND not admit to being a selfish asshole.

Well that's a load of crap. I could care less about how easy or hard it is for you to climb a route. If you accomplish something that's difficult for you, I'll say congrats.

Have you actually conversed with "most people" or "92%" of the community? It doesn't sound like you have been in the scene (6 months of trad) to really fully understand the issue, let alone most people's opinions. This is not a slight to you, just an observation.

Like a few mentioned before, the new bolt "bitching and moaning" is because the perps violated local established ethics on a line that is perfectly reasonable to protect. They selfishly brought it down to their level and ruined a route that many others have enjoyed in its previous state.

tedman wrote:
Now they are in the elite trad club and want to be just like daddy tradpants who taught them everything, so they continue spewing the lines without actually stopping to consider if thats how they truely feel themselves. Yes, these lines might even be partly true, just like your last girlfriend ended things because she felt like maintaining a long distance relationship was too hard (and it was), but most of it came from the fact that she couldnt stand the sight of you anymore and would rather be sucking on johnies dick instead. What did she tell you and herself? well the distance thing of course, who wants to admit to themselves or anyone else that they are a selfish prick?

Personal experience with the gf thing? Dunno.... But I taught myself trad, gleaned some insight from friends through the years, dropped it, got back into it. I also boulder, clip bolts, ice climb, cave. I don't belong to the super elitist agenda mac daddy trad club, though I enjoy tradding more than other forms for the challenges it offers, that is neither here nor there however. What is there are offensive bolts on a now dumb-downed climb due to a coward or a selfish person who didn't consult the community before defacing a route.

tedman wrote:
Now of course I dont expect anyone here to, clearly everyone who slightly identifies with this has raised shields and loaded torpedoes, and maybe even fired a few (really? 13? cmon, you can do better, this is the internet!). And I guess its my fault for coming off so strong, but it just gets me when people spew forth massive loads of crap and everyone just kind of goes 'oh he sounds like he knows what hes doing, I'll just agree'. F-that.

Everyone can forge their own opinion. And if you kick a dog, you shouldn't be pissed when it bites you back.

tardman wrote:
And no, I'm not a gym rat or a sport boy. I climb it all and love all of it (except bouldering, dunno, just dont get it). I love trad and plan to do a ton more. I also love sport, its great when you want to push grades without having to worry so much about bodily harm. I also climb at the gym because, well, I work, so I cant get out in the middle of the week.

So no really, please enlighten me if I am wrong. Tell me why, REALLY why, you or I should be enraged at the sight of bolts next to a perfect crack.

Yup, you're wrong, re-read the thread and maybe experience some enlightenment, or just sit back with your loaded torpedos and a naive/ignorant attitude.

edited to fix quote box


(This post was edited by jrathfon on Aug 8, 2008, 1:34 PM)


CaptainPolution


Aug 8, 2008, 1:36 PM
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Re: [troutboy] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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man my glasses are all mucked up because of the spray from this thread. I need to solo to the top cabinet to get the cleaner, brb.

find the guy who bolted it and give him a piece of your mind


coppertone


Aug 8, 2008, 1:50 PM
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Re: [fresh] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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Why even try to reason with someone like Tedman who has no ethics and is unwilling hear what anyone is saying. Perhaps you have heard of the clean climbing revolution. People stopped using pins and started using nuts and cams to prevent damaging the rock. Unless you are in an area such as Rumney where there is very little point to doing trad lines and the local ethics is to bolt everything in site regardless of whether or not the line is protectable by gear, bolting should not take place where there is other pro. Don't get me wrong, I love climbing at Rumney it is allot of fun, but I would not want those ethics to be transferred to the Gunks. Good to know that you won't be visiting us in the Gunks anytime soon. If you cannot climb a line in its current state don't change the line, aspire to improve your skills so that you can climb it. Does everything have to be served up on a silver plater and made completely sterilized. If you want to clip bolts go to a gym. If you want to climb rock then climb in an area that suits your skill set. If you want to climb something in an area that is not compatible with your skill set make a change in yourself not the area. Should all hairy single track bike trails be paved to make it better for you. Should all backcountry skiing be groomed so that you feel better about it. Should there be a lift to the top of Tuckermines Ravine because you don't want to make the hike. Lowering the challenges and commitment of a certain activity only proves to lessen the reward when a goal is achieved. There are many routes that I have done that took time to get on because I was not ready. When I was finally able to lead these routes it was a very rewarding experience. There are many routes that I want to lead that scare the hell out of me, but when I am able to lead them it will be very fulfilling. Just because I could lead something now if we bolted the hell out of it doesn't mean that I should or even want to.


tedman


Aug 8, 2008, 2:12 PM
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Re: [coppertone] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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see the point I'm trying to make again and again, does it _actually_ change the climb? Its not like adding bolts makes the holds and bigger or the rock have more friction. does it actually make it any easier? If you go and climb it trad (which you can still 100% do), NO! If you want to climb it with all or some bolts, yes! Everyone is happy! (although aparantly not).

And are you really trying to argue that slamming pitons into the wall and then taking them out so the next person slams their own into the wall a bit down from yours and takes theirs out is the same as putting in a bolt that gets used thousands of times and can fairly easily be replaced (in the same spot no less!) causing no further scaring of the rock? really? cuz thats what it sounds like to me. Really in the long run it could be argued that bolting has less impact than gear (even gear scars the rock when it rips out right?).

It only lowers the challenge for those who WANT the lower challenege. The difference between this and all of your examples is that yours force EVERYONE onto the lower challenge. Bolting, if not for the egos involved, allows both parties to be happy.


coppertone


Aug 8, 2008, 2:22 PM
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Re: [tedman] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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You clearly cannot grasp the concept that the existence of bolts does change the climb. You also have no concept of ethics and first ascents. You also seem to want everything to conform to you and have no respect for what others want. I have nothing against bolting, but there is a time and a place for it. If you want to climb a route that you are not capable of doing because it is a gear route then TR it, or follow someone else, or better yet acquire the skill to lead it on gear. If none of these work for you then climb something else. I'm just glad that someone like yourself is limited to climbing in a gym or a bolted area and is clearly not capable of ruining a trad experience for others. You sound like you would be upset about Prince of Darkness in Red Rocks which is a completely overbolted climb for 6 pitches but actually requires a little gear on one pitch.


jrathfon


Aug 8, 2008, 2:25 PM
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Re: [tedman] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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why am i responding...

have you heard of clean climbing? that's what the other poster was talking about, the difference between pitons and clean climbing.

have you really trad climbed? did you know gear climber's nowadays use these confounded dohickey's called cams and nuts? no, they typically don't scar the rock, and no, they typically do not rip out.

did you read those posts? or does your reading comprehension just suck that much?

did you see earlier where i said your point was assinine?

actually leaving the line clean raises the challenge to a higher challenge, isn't that the entire point, to lower the bar for the masses who haven't developed the skills necessary to accomplish the climb?

sit back one second. wait. read. think. read again. think. wait. then don't post!

edited to add: mmmm, prince of darkness. pitch one is a gear 5.7, then there is a bolt missing somewhere near the 3rd pitch where you can place a nice alien, then there is a nice stretch 3rd or 4th pitch where 2 or 3 pieces are nice.

tardman should jump on warrior's way (is that the correct name?) just to the left... he'd love it, it's got bolts, i swear.


(This post was edited by jrathfon on Aug 8, 2008, 2:28 PM)


Partner angry


Aug 8, 2008, 2:36 PM
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Re: [jrathfon] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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Tedman,

Post up a climbing resume, show us your experience, let us see the amount of your life you've put into climbing. Or shut the fuck up.

That is all.


tedman


Aug 8, 2008, 2:52 PM
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Re: [jrathfon] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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The other poster was comparing placing pitons to placing bolts. I was showing the difference.

Yes I really do trad climb, Yes I know about cams and nuts and no they typically dont scar the rock, but they can, and they do occasionally rip out and scar the rock. Not very much, but much less so yarding on bolts.

Yes I read all these posts, but I never get any good answers. The only one that made me think about it for a minute was about 100-300 years from now. Everyone just responds 'ugh you dont get it, but I'm just not going to explain it to you', because either they are lazy or cant because they dont have any good arguments (I'm leaning towards the later).

you_can_still_climb_a_bolted_trad_line_only_using_trad_gear. What I dont get it how this suposedly 'ruins the line' when in fact nothing has changed for the trad climber. The rock is still there, its exactly the same, the only thing that has changed is he has more options open to him. Aparantly options are bad?

and just saying a point is asinine is asinine. Come up with intelligent logical arguments other than 'because I say so' or 'its tradition!'. Its almost like arguing with religious zealots!


tedman


Aug 8, 2008, 2:55 PM
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Re: [angry] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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No I dont have a ton of experience, I've never said I have. But that dosnt stop me from making a valid point does it? Just because it goes against the grain dosnt mean its not worth exploring.

Convince me I'm wrong using valid justifiable points and I'll concede, until then, I'm having fun at the end of an otherwise mind dulling work day!


Partner angry


Aug 8, 2008, 3:03 PM
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It's about commitment.

You have to commit to what you're doing, no matter what it is in life.

Think of your style as a microchasm of your whole life. If you are ok with needless bolts in the rock, I'd imagine that you've got deeper problems.

I don't envy you.


veganclimber


Aug 8, 2008, 3:08 PM
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tedman wrote:
The other poster was comparing placing pitons to placing bolts. I was showing the difference.

Yes I really do trad climb

You may climb with gear sometimes but no, you do not trad climb. Remember, trad is short for traditional.

In reply to:
you_can_still_climb_a_bolted_trad_line_only_using_trad_gear. What I dont get it how this suposedly 'ruins the line' when in fact nothing has changed for the trad climber. The rock is still there, its exactly the same, the only thing that has changed is he has more options open to him. Aparantly options are bad?

You keep missing the point here. Bolting the route changes it whether you use the bolts or not because you always have the option. It doesn't matter what you decide to do on the ground. Even if you make it through the route without clipping the bolts you always have that safety net if you get sketched out.

Say you have a trad route that has some long runouts. Then somebody comes along and bolts it. Do you really think it's the same climb if you don't actually use the bolts?


jt512


Aug 8, 2008, 3:20 PM
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jrathfon wrote:
i am sorry, but i will absolutely never agree with a bolt next to a crack.

Any opinion on this:



Jay


Partner angry


Aug 8, 2008, 3:21 PM
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veganclimber wrote:
You keep missing the point here. Bolting the route changes it whether you use the bolts or not because you always have the option. It doesn't matter what you decide to do on the ground. Even if you make it through the route without clipping the bolts you always have that safety net if you get sketched out.

Say you have a trad route that has some long runouts. Then somebody comes along and bolts it. Do you really think it's the same climb if you don't actually use the bolts?

It's a new climber thing, they totally don't get it for a few years. He'll either eventually figure that out or he'll quit climbing.


patmay81


Aug 8, 2008, 3:21 PM
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Coming from an area with great sport climbing arenas like smith rock, I'm going to have to agree with tedman... bolt it all!!!! and while you're at it could someone please put a lift into the crooked river gorge! and how about one of those airport people movers. I get really tired of the 1-2 mile hikes to my favorite smith climbs.

(please note I love smiths few moderate trad climbs, and in all seriousness would never even think about bolting them)

Edit to ad: but the people mover and lift would still be pretty cool!Wink


(This post was edited by patmay81 on Aug 8, 2008, 3:23 PM)


Partner angry


Aug 8, 2008, 3:28 PM
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I'm in full support of a gondola to the diamond. Just don't bolt ariana while you're at it.


moose_droppings


Aug 8, 2008, 3:33 PM
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tedman wrote:
I also love sport, its great when you want to push grades without having to worry so much about bodily harm.

tedman wrote:
see the point I'm trying to make again and again, does it _actually_ change the climb? ...... does it actually make it any easier?

Try standing on one side of the fence or the other.


csproul


Aug 8, 2008, 3:47 PM
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tedman wrote:
see the point I'm trying to make again and again, does it _actually_ change the climb? Its not like adding bolts makes the holds and bigger or the rock have more friction. does it actually make it any easier?
This is where your lack of trad experience shows. It DOES change the difficulty of the climb. Inherent in trad climbing is the addition of mental difficulty... of protecting the climb and the commitment that comes with starting the climb knowing that your climbing and protecting skills have to keep you safe. Just knowing that the bolts are there to fall back on when the going gets tough does make the climb less committing. Sport climbing does have its place, but not on already established trad climbs.


cloudbreak


Aug 8, 2008, 4:27 PM
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Sounds like your mind was made up before you even posted.

Why haven't you just gone chopped them?
Did you come on here to get internet approval or what?


the_climber


Aug 8, 2008, 4:30 PM
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tedman wrote:
So I feel like this is a troll, but I'll bite.
*cough* troll *cough*
tedman wrote:
Who gives a flying fuck?
Hmmm, lets see... ummm, lots of people

tedman wrote:
i really dont understand why everyone seems to get their knickers in a twist when people bolt things. If you really dont like the bolts, then dont use them, its as simple as that.

Yeah, about those commas, well lack off. But hey, I'm sure you meant "don't


tedman wrote:
i really dont understand why everyone seems to get their knickers in a twist when people bolt things.
sport *wank* *wank*
I think you've been breathing chalk dust in the gym too long.

tedman wrote:
If you really dont like the bolts, then dont use them, its as simple as that.
Yeeaaaahhhh.... [Dr.Evil]right[/Dr.Evil].... I'm guessing you've been at it somewhere between 2 and 5 years, most of your climbing is in the gym.

tedman wrote:
Other people who might not be as experienced or have the $ for a rack right now will appreciate them I'm sure.
Well the only way to get experience is to ummm, you know, climb with gear.

Besides, my partner's 15 year old son and his sons best friend can afford gear... come to thing of his his son Kyle had built up his own rack just after his 14th B-day.

*Point invalid*

tedman wrote:
And please, dont spew the line about bolts being unsightly, I don't believe it for a second. Do you get all puffed up when you see some stuck gear? 'OMG ITS UGLY< I MUST REMOVE IT FOR THE FENG SHWAY OF THE ROUTEZ!'. No, of course you dont,
*snip*
Ya, ummmm... you still trying to pat yourself on the back for that one? The whole witty feng shui comment... oh wait, what the hell is feng sway? Keep you funkness to yourself, just the though of what it might be is scary.

tedman wrote:
you remove it because you are a greedy bastard who wants it for himself (and who wouldnt?).
Clearly in this case you have ab-so-fuken-lutely no concept of ethics, and merely make an emotional, hot headed, and uninformed statement regarding something that is beyond you comprehension at this point.


tedman wrote:
Unless I'm missing something
Yep.

tedman wrote:
(and I could be,
Yep.


*yawn*

tedman wrote:
because

*yawn*
tedman wrote:
*snip*grizzled 40 year climbing veteran),
HOLY SHIT! Call the doctor! I'm aging prematurely!


tedman wrote:
the only reason people get all pissed off is because the elite and exclusive trad club that had all rights to unbolted lines now has to _share_. holy flying dogshit! people not as dedicated as me arn't allowed on my lines! get off gumby! You must have a swinging dick this long to get on my trad route!

*yawn*

Back to the gym and sport wanking mindset.

*yawn*

Do some research on the history of climbing ethics, and write a 2000 word essay on the purity of the pursuit of climbing before you get back to me on this one. You sound young enough to sill be in grade school, it'll be good practice for you during the summer.

*time for a Beer*


AAHHHHH! Tasty. Where was I? Oh, yes...

tedman wrote:
Get yourself off!
WTF!


Oh, wait... I cheezetitted that one.

*yawn*

Next.


tedman wrote:
does it really detract from your massive ego that sport climbers can now enjoy the same routes?

It's not a matter of ego. It is a respect issue; for the environment, the sport, and the first accentionists.

tedman wrote:
are you that fucking selfish?

I could say you are selfish for letting others do ALL the work to establish climbing routes and crags, trail to the crag, the effort to ensure access is both secured and ensured... all without putting the effort in yourself.

tedman wrote:
And yes, I do climb trad.
I'm guessing you "just" started. Perhaps because you though it was "cool".

tedman wrote:
Not as hard as my sport grade

Spray.

*yawn*

tedman wrote:
but I've only been at it for the summer.
the_climber wrote:
tedman wrote:
And yes, I do climb trad.
I'm guessing you "just" started. Perhaps because you though it was "cool".

Yep.


tedman wrote:
So yeah, I do both.

You do both but understand only one. I could explain, but you clearly do not have the frame of reference to comprehend, so I won't waste my typing on you anymore.

Have a happy slappy afternoon,

T_C

P.S. I'd offer you a beer, but I have a feeling you're too young to drink and I wouldn't want a good ol' Trad climber to be a bad influence in the Sport an Gym community.


(This post was edited by the_climber on Aug 8, 2008, 4:33 PM)


chossmonkey


Aug 8, 2008, 4:38 PM
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Re: [the_climber] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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the_climber wrote:
Had the same thing happen last year on a crag we developed.
If like us you ar ethe FA/Developer of the crag, Time to pull the crowbar out.
A crowbar is never the answer.

It leaves big nasty marks. There are much better, easier ways.


kriso9tails


Aug 8, 2008, 4:45 PM
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Re: [the_climber] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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the_climber wrote:
tedman wrote:
So yeah, I do both.

You do both but understand only one. I could explain, but you clearly do not have the frame of reference to comprehend, so I won't waste my typing on you anymore.

It'd sort of be like explaining why one equals one.

In reply to:
P.S. I'd offer you a beer, but I have a feeling you're too young to drink and I wouldn't want a good ol' Trad climber to be a bad influence in the Sport an Gym community.

Whatever man.; don't be condescendin'. I can coordinate my toque, manpris, chalkbag and climbing shoe ensemble like nobody's fucking business. This is the true skill a climber needs in all situations. Remember, it's not about getting to the top; it's about leaving behind a pretty corpse.

(This post was edited by kriso9tails on Aug 8, 2008, 7:05 PM)


CaptainPolution


Aug 8, 2008, 7:01 PM
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Re: [the_climber] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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the_climber wrote:
tedman wrote:
So I feel like this is a troll, but I'll bite.
*cough* troll *cough*
tedman wrote:
Who gives a flying fuck?
Hmmm, lets see... ummm, lots of people

tedman wrote:
i really dont understand why everyone seems to get their knickers in a twist when people bolt things. If you really dont like the bolts, then dont use them, its as simple as that.

Yeah, about those commas, well lack off. But hey, I'm sure you meant "don't


tedman wrote:
i really dont understand why everyone seems to get their knickers in a twist when people bolt things.
sport *wank* *wank*
I think you've been breathing chalk dust in the gym too long.

tedman wrote:
If you really dont like the bolts, then dont use them, its as simple as that.
Yeeaaaahhhh.... [Dr.Evil]right[/Dr.Evil].... I'm guessing you've been at it somewhere between 2 and 5 years, most of your climbing is in the gym.

tedman wrote:
Other people who might not be as experienced or have the $ for a rack right now will appreciate them I'm sure.
Well the only way to get experience is to ummm, you know, climb with gear.

Besides, my partner's 15 year old son and his sons best friend can afford gear... come to thing of his his son Kyle had built up his own rack just after his 14th B-day.

*Point invalid*

tedman wrote:
And please, dont spew the line about bolts being unsightly, I don't believe it for a second. Do you get all puffed up when you see some stuck gear? 'OMG ITS UGLY< I MUST REMOVE IT FOR THE FENG SHWAY OF THE ROUTEZ!'. No, of course you dont,
*snip*
Ya, ummmm... you still trying to pat yourself on the back for that one? The whole witty feng shui comment... oh wait, what the hell is feng sway? Keep you funkness to yourself, just the though of what it might be is scary.

tedman wrote:
you remove it because you are a greedy bastard who wants it for himself (and who wouldnt?).
Clearly in this case you have ab-so-fuken-lutely no concept of ethics, and merely make an emotional, hot headed, and uninformed statement regarding something that is beyond you comprehension at this point.


tedman wrote:
Unless I'm missing something
Yep.

tedman wrote:
(and I could be,
Yep.


*yawn*

tedman wrote:
because

*yawn*
tedman wrote:
*snip*grizzled 40 year climbing veteran),
HOLY SHIT! Call the doctor! I'm aging prematurely!


tedman wrote:
the only reason people get all pissed off is because the elite and exclusive trad club that had all rights to unbolted lines now has to _share_. holy flying dogshit! people not as dedicated as me arn't allowed on my lines! get off gumby! You must have a swinging dick this long to get on my trad route!

*yawn*

Back to the gym and sport wanking mindset.

*yawn*

Do some research on the history of climbing ethics, and write a 2000 word essay on the purity of the pursuit of climbing before you get back to me on this one. You sound young enough to sill be in grade school, it'll be good practice for you during the summer.

*time for a Beer*


AAHHHHH! Tasty. Where was I? Oh, yes...

tedman wrote:
Get yourself off!
WTF! [image]http://www.twcenter.net/forums/images/smilies/emoticons/sign_wtf.gif[/image]


Oh, wait... I cheezetitted that one.

*yawn*

Next.


tedman wrote:
does it really detract from your massive ego that sport climbers can now enjoy the same routes?

It's not a matter of ego. It is a respect issue; for the environment, the sport, and the first accentionists.

tedman wrote:
are you that fucking selfish?

I could say you are selfish for letting others do ALL the work to establish climbing routes and crags, trail to the crag, the effort to ensure access is both secured and ensured... all without putting the effort in yourself.

tedman wrote:
And yes, I do climb trad.
I'm guessing you "just" started. Perhaps because you though it was "cool".

tedman wrote:
Not as hard as my sport grade

Spray.

*yawn*

tedman wrote:
but I've only been at it for the summer.
the_climber wrote:
tedman wrote:
And yes, I do climb trad.
I'm guessing you "just" started. Perhaps because you though it was "cool".

Yep.


tedman wrote:
So yeah, I do both.

You do both but understand only one. I could explain, but you clearly do not have the frame of reference to comprehend, so I won't waste my typing on you anymore.

Have a happy slappy afternoon,

T_C

P.S. I'd offer you a beer, but I have a feeling you're too young to drink and I wouldn't want a good ol' Trad climber to be a bad influence in the Sport an Gym community.

I am going to have to agree with you here on every single point. you sum it up.


climbsomething


Aug 8, 2008, 7:13 PM
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Re: [jt512] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
jrathfon wrote:
i am sorry, but i will absolutely never agree with a bolt next to a crack.

Any opinion on this:



Jay
OMG! OMG! OMG!

Balls out 5.6 what I mean did anybody see that insurance commercial where their soloing um is the optimus prime a good shoe for numbers chasing which is a bad thing anyway the best climber is the one who's having the most fun bolting cracks.

What? Where the eff am I? Mommy?


the_climber


Aug 8, 2008, 8:03 PM
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Re: [chossmonkey] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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chossmonkey wrote:
the_climber wrote:
Had the same thing happen last year on a crag we developed.
If like us you ar ethe FA/Developer of the crag, Time to pull the crowbar out.
A crowbar is never the answer.

It leaves big nasty marks. There are much better, easier ways.

I've got ways to remove them, but it's a hard task when the wanker who placed them (if you can call it placing) bent the shaft trying to tighten the bolt up in the wobblely hole he/she hacked out.
You leave less marks if you put a piece of leather or a pin between the rock and the crowbar too.


t2stone


Aug 8, 2008, 8:35 PM
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Re: [climbsomething] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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UMM~,

Did someone say TROLL? Crazy
HONESTLY peeps.... would anyone really DRILL? NEXT TO A 30$ USED CAM PLACEMENT? HMM WHAT1 would motivate this kinda CRAP!
lets see here.....?
I see many "excuses" here,but do 2 my "poor" typing/spelling I will get us "going" w/t THE TOP 3 REASONS I BOLTED A CRACK

#1 sport~weeniew/t an ego prob-" @ the coffeeshop s~weenie has 2 tell he/she cohorts that they climbed a 5.9 2-day on lead! )^:

#2 sport~weenie has 2 much $/time on he/she hands now- s`weenie has a trustfund and has been reading rock n ice alot...buy drill go 2 cliff and "pervert" the nature of the rocks.

#3 sport~wennie CAN now climb 5.8 but, would NEVER "trust" a nut or an aiein 4 that matter... buys drill and gets to climb a crack on lead fer once....MadPirate


(This post was edited by t2stone on Aug 8, 2008, 8:37 PM)


t2stone


Aug 8, 2008, 8:52 PM
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Re: [tedman] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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tedman wrote:
I still dont see what stops you from climbing the line without using the bolts. No one is forcing you to use them, and its not like they get in the way if they are placed halfway intelligently. Having bolts does not stop anyone from climbing from a purely trad perspective. If they get distracted by the bolts and end up clipping a few because they were sketched out, well thats their own fault for not having enough focus and willpower to complete the climb in the traditional way they intended (if that is the case).

And if you are going to use slippery slopes with me, then as far as your leave no trace, well then shouldnt you just not be climbing at all? you erode the poor earth every time you make an approach, you polish each hand and foothold every time you use them. Holy christ, eventually every mountain everywhere will be nothing more than polished lumps of worthless goo!

No, its all about whats acceptible to each individual. All I'm trying to argue is that most people bitching and moaning about new bolts are doing so from a purely selfish standpoint. They dont want people who have put in less effort than them to be able to attain the same climbs. Yes they bitch and moan about erosion and asthetics and all that crap, but really for 92% of them, they are saying this because thats what was said to them, and it sounds good-they can keep the gumbies away from themselves AND not admit to being a selfish asshole. Now they are in the elite trad club and want to be just like daddy tradpants who taught them everything, so they continue spewing the lines without actually stopping to consider if thats how they truely feel themselves. Yes, these lines might even be partly true, just like your last girlfriend ended things because she felt like maintaining a long distance relationship was too hard (and it was), but most of it came from the fact that she couldnt stand the sight of you anymore and would rather be sucking on johnies dick instead. What did she tell you and herself? well the distance thing of course, who wants to admit to themselves or anyone else that they are a selfish prick?

Now of course I dont expect anyone here to, clearly everyone who slightly identifies with this has raised shields and loaded torpedoes, and maybe even fired a few (really? 13? cmon, you can do better, this is the internet!). And I guess its my fault for coming off so strong, but it just gets me when people spew forth massive loads of crap and everyone just kind of goes 'oh he sounds like he knows what hes doing, I'll just agree'. F-that.

And no, I'm not a gym rat or a sport boy. I climb it all and love all of it (except bouldering, dunno, just dont get it). I love trad and plan to do a ton more. I also love sport, its great when you want to push grades without having to worry so much about bodily harm. I also climb at the gym because, well, I work, so I cant get out in the middle of the week.

So no really, duhh, say this.. your climbing a crack route 1 day... it's very hard fer you 2-day? then you see a hanger 2 clip instead of the crack~placement (easy way out)= no adventure )^:~ case closedAngelic please enlighten me if I am wrong. Tell me why, REALLY why, you or I should be enraged at the sight of bolts next to a perfect crack.


notapplicable


Aug 8, 2008, 9:19 PM
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Re: [tedman] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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tedman wrote:
So I feel like this is a troll, but I'll bite. Who gives a flying fuck? i really dont understand why everyone seems to get their knickers in a twist when people bolt things. If you really dont like the bolts, then dont use them, its as simple as that. Other people who might not be as experienced or have the $ for a rack right now will appreciate them I'm sure. And please, dont spew the line about bolts being unsightly, I don't believe it for a second. Do you get all puffed up when you see some stuck gear? 'OMG ITS UGLY< I MUST REMOVE IT FOR THE FENG SHWAY OF THE ROUTEZ!'. No, of course you dont, you remove it because you are a greedy bastard who wants it for himself (and who wouldnt?). Unless I'm missing something (and I could be, because I'm not a grizzled 40 year climbing veteran), the only reason people get all pissed off is because the elite and exclusive trad club that had all rights to unbolted lines now has to _share_. holy flying dogshit! people not as dedicated as me arn't allowed on my lines! get off gumby! You must have a swinging dick this long to get on my trad route!

Get over yourself! does it really detract from your massive ego that sport climbers can now enjoy the same routes? are you that fucking selfish?

And yes, I do climb trad. Not as hard as my sport grade but I've only been at it for the summer. So yeah, I do both.


tedman wrote:
Heres my point, why do YOU care if less committed climbers now have access? How does that degrade from YOUR experience? And if bolting a line makes it so a wheelchair bound climber can get up it, then hell yes bolt it!! I'd love to see that and be cheering them the fuck on the whole time!

Chalk, bolts, hanging draws (I'm assuming you mean the exceedingly few permanent draws installed on routes and not project draws). Seriously, defacements? thats your main point? The erosion, I'll give you that. Better access=more people=more erosion. But is that really YOUR reason for not liking bolts on your favorite trad route? Sure seems like we are worried about it getting popular, and we dont like to share now do we?

And ok, the 12guage wielding land owners do have a right to what goes on on their property, this is amerika, fuck yeah! so trespassing is still trespassing. But really, if we take away all the popularity that bolting would bring to classic routes, all the property owners' angst, when you see a bolt on your trad line, what are the real reasons that you get pissed? Is it really the tree hugging hippie in each of us whose spirit is dampend because of the bruising to mother nature's fragile essence, or is it our ego that cant stand the thought that we put in all this work to be able to climb this route this way, and now some punkass 12 year old with a rope and a bunch of draws can now do the same thing in a much less committing fasion?

tedman wrote:
I still dont see what stops you from climbing the line without using the bolts. No one is forcing you to use them, and its not like they get in the way if they are placed halfway intelligently. Having bolts does not stop anyone from climbing from a purely trad perspective. If they get distracted by the bolts and end up clipping a few because they were sketched out, well thats their own fault for not having enough focus and willpower to complete the climb in the traditional way they intended (if that is the case).

And if you are going to use slippery slopes with me, then as far as your leave no trace, well then shouldnt you just not be climbing at all? you erode the poor earth every time you make an approach, you polish each hand and foothold every time you use them. Holy christ, eventually every mountain everywhere will be nothing more than polished lumps of worthless goo!

No, its all about whats acceptible to each individual. All I'm trying to argue is that most people bitching and moaning about new bolts are doing so from a purely selfish standpoint. They dont want people who have put in less effort than them to be able to attain the same climbs. Yes they bitch and moan about erosion and asthetics and all that crap, but really for 92% of them, they are saying this because thats what was said to them, and it sounds good-they can keep the gumbies away from themselves AND not admit to being a selfish asshole. Now they are in the elite trad club and want to be just like daddy tradpants who taught them everything, so they continue spewing the lines without actually stopping to consider if thats how they truely feel themselves. Yes, these lines might even be partly true, just like your last girlfriend ended things because she felt like maintaining a long distance relationship was too hard (and it was), but most of it came from the fact that she couldnt stand the sight of you anymore and would rather be sucking on johnies dick instead. What did she tell you and herself? well the distance thing of course, who wants to admit to themselves or anyone else that they are a selfish prick?

Now of course I dont expect anyone here to, clearly everyone who slightly identifies with this has raised shields and loaded torpedoes, and maybe even fired a few (really? 13? cmon, you can do better, this is the internet!). And I guess its my fault for coming off so strong, but it just gets me when people spew forth massive loads of crap and everyone just kind of goes 'oh he sounds like he knows what hes doing, I'll just agree'. F-that.

And no, I'm not a gym rat or a sport boy. I climb it all and love all of it (except bouldering, dunno, just dont get it). I love trad and plan to do a ton more. I also love sport, its great when you want to push grades without having to worry so much about bodily harm. I also climb at the gym because, well, I work, so I cant get out in the middle of the week.

So no really, please enlighten me if I am wrong. Tell me why, REALLY why, you or I should be enraged at the sight of bolts next to a perfect crack.

tedman wrote:
see the point I'm trying to make again and again, does it _actually_ change the climb? Its not like adding bolts makes the holds and bigger or the rock have more friction. does it actually make it any easier? If you go and climb it trad (which you can still 100% do), NO! If you want to climb it with all or some bolts, yes! Everyone is happy! (although aparantly not).

And are you really trying to argue that slamming pitons into the wall and then taking them out so the next person slams their own into the wall a bit down from yours and takes theirs out is the same as putting in a bolt that gets used thousands of times and can fairly easily be replaced (in the same spot no less!) causing no further scaring of the rock? really? cuz thats what it sounds like to me. Really in the long run it could be argued that bolting has less impact than gear (even gear scars the rock when it rips out right?).

It only lowers the challenge for those who WANT the lower challenege. The difference between this and all of your examples is that yours force EVERYONE onto the lower challenge. Bolting, if not for the egos involved, allows both parties to be happy.

tedman wrote:
The other poster was comparing placing pitons to placing bolts. I was showing the difference.

Yes I really do trad climb, Yes I know about cams and nuts and no they typically dont scar the rock, but they can, and they do occasionally rip out and scar the rock. Not very much, but much less so yarding on bolts.

Yes I read all these posts, but I never get any good answers. The only one that made me think about it for a minute was about 100-300 years from now. Everyone just responds 'ugh you dont get it, but I'm just not going to explain it to you', because either they are lazy or cant because they dont have any good arguments (I'm leaning towards the later).

you_can_still_climb_a_bolted_trad_line_only_using_trad_gear. What I dont get it how this suposedly 'ruins the line' when in fact nothing has changed for the trad climber. The rock is still there, its exactly the same, the only thing that has changed is he has more options open to him. Aparantly options are bad?

and just saying a point is asinine is asinine. Come up with intelligent logical arguments other than 'because I say so' or 'its tradition!'. Its almost like arguing with religious zealots!

tedman wrote:
No I dont have a ton of experience, I've never said I have. But that dosnt stop me from making a valid point does it? Just because it goes against the grain dosnt mean its not worth exploring.

Convince me I'm wrong using valid justifiable points and I'll concede, until then, I'm having fun at the end of an otherwise mind dulling work day!


HOLY BLATHERING IDIOT BATMAN!!!

^That^ is possibly the most time I have seen one person spend in a day, being completely wrong, on a subject they know nothing about. If it werent so sad I would say congratulations...but it is, so I won't.


notapplicable


Aug 8, 2008, 9:22 PM
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Re: [t2stone] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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t2stone wrote:
UMM~,

Did someone say TROLL? Crazy
HONESTLY peeps.... would anyone really DRILL? NEXT TO A 30$ USED CAM PLACEMENT? HMM WHAT1 would motivate this kinda CRAP!
lets see here.....?
I see many "excuses" here,but do 2 my "poor" typing/spelling I will get us "going" w/t THE TOP 3 REASONS I BOLTED A CRACK

#1 sport~weeniew/t an ego prob-" @ the coffeeshop s~weenie has 2 tell he/she cohorts that they climbed a 5.9 2-day on lead! )^:

#2 sport~weenie has 2 much $/time on he/she hands now- s`weenie has a trustfund and has been reading rock n ice alot...buy drill go 2 cliff and "pervert" the nature of the rocks.

#3 sport~wennie CAN now climb 5.8 but, would NEVER "trust" a nut or an aiein 4 that matter... buys drill and gets to climb a crack on lead fer once....MadPirate

t2stone wrote:
So no really, duhh, say this.. your climbing a crack route 1 day... it's very hard fer you 2-day? then you see a hanger 2 clip instead of the crack~placement (easy way out)= no adventure )^:~ case closedAngelic please enlighten me if I am wrong. Tell me why, REALLY why, you or I should be enraged at the sight of bolts next to a perfect crack.


I'm not deciphering ^that^.


stymingersfink


Aug 8, 2008, 9:52 PM
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Re: [jt512] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
jrathfon wrote:
i am sorry, but i will absolutely never agree with a bolt next to a crack.

Any opinion on this:



Jay
Yeah. He outts ta lever that big loose flake off so it don't kill someone's belayer.


t2stone


Aug 8, 2008, 10:26 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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2~badd 4 you no apps... try a fORtune cookie next time or just go out an CLIMB INSTEAD OF SITTIN ROUND YER PC O.K. NOW?Shocked


(This post was edited by t2stone on Aug 8, 2008, 10:28 PM)


Partner gunksgoer


Aug 8, 2008, 10:26 PM
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Re: [t2stone] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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tedman wrote:
I still dont see what stops you from climbing the line without using the bolts. No one is forcing you to use them, and its not like they get in the way if they are placed halfway intelligently. Having bolts does not stop anyone from climbing from a purely trad perspective. If they get distracted by the bolts and end up clipping a few because they were sketched out, well thats their own fault for not having enough focus and willpower to complete the climb in the traditional way they intended (if that is the case).

I honestly hope thats a troll... its just idiotic.

Bolting a good crack is like building convenience stores all along the john muir trail. Even if hikers decided not to stop at them they would completely change the character of the hike. Get my drift?

That being said, the guy who was trying to lead the bachar-yerian all on gear is ridiculous.


t2stone


Aug 8, 2008, 10:29 PM
Post #67 of 140 (2314 views)
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Re: [gunksgoer] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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gunksgoer wrote:
tedman wrote:
I still dont see what stops you from climbing the line without using the bolts. No one is forcing you to use them, and its not like they get in the way if they are placed halfway intelligently. Having bolts does not stop anyone from climbing from a purely trad perspective. If they get distracted by the bolts and end up clipping a few because they were sketched out, well thats their own fault for not having enough focus and willpower to complete the climb in the traditional way they intended (if that is the case).
YEAH! what he said!Smile

I honestly hope thats a troll... its just idiotic.

Bolting a good crack is like building convenience stores all along the john muir trail. Even if hikers decided not to stop at them they would completely change the character of the hike. Get my drift?

That being said, the guy who was trying to lead the bachar-yerian all on gear is ridiculous.


notapplicable


Aug 8, 2008, 10:34 PM
Post #68 of 140 (2308 views)
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Re: [gunksgoer] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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gunksgoer wrote:
That being said, the guy who was trying to lead the bachar-yerian all on gear is ridiculous.


He almost had it though!!


Yeah, yeah I know...horseshoe's and hand grenades.


darkside


Aug 9, 2008, 1:11 AM
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Re: [jrathfon] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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jrathfon wrote:
You advocated adding bolts for increased access. I was merely pointing out that your logic can be extended. If we are going to add bolts to trad lines so that all can enjoy, then why don't we add handi-capped access to remote alpine waterfalls? how about everest? (wait, no, that's been done) my point was merely, how come you, mr. elitist sporto, (look i can put you on your high horse and call you elitist as well), need your routes to be bolted in order to climb, that's mighty elitist requiring all of your routes to have bolts, why not save some lines for people who prefer other styles? maybe the trad climbers aren't as sporty and gymnastic as you, and maybe they can't pull down as hard. should we deny them of routes so you can have your precious bolted lines?

of course not, it's silly either way to claim routes in honor of a style. styles coexist, some crags have been developed as one or the other, there are typically many good reasons, no placements, an abundance of placements, loose rock, run-outs, etc. what does matter is the local community. what style do they prefer? what style is the accepted style at the crag? that's what to follow.

why don't i just walk into a gym and say that my accepted style is slopers, and change all routes i want to climb to be all slopers, then yell elitists at the crimp fanatics who all get their crotchety panties in a twist. i know, cause that's dumb. i walked into a scene where i am not part of the community and changed pre-established things to meet my needs, who is elitist?
Climbers are lazy including myself which is why I only read the first page. I wanted to say I agree with jrathfon but I wanted to add that I thought tedman must be lazy too. Like seriously dude, do you really think it's OK to bolt cracks??? Your ethics must be so whacked if you're not trolling. So is it also OK to chip, or to glue extra holds on as well? Before you start calling "elitist", I'm calling bullshit - I climb easy stuff, mostly trad, but would never stoop to bringing the rock down to my lowly level. Really dude, grow a pair and learn some ethics. I love bolts when they're needed but bolts by gear protectable cracks is lame.
Sorry but it had to be said if someone didn't in the 2nd/3rd page - like I said, I'm too lazy to read rehashed shit but not that lazy I didn't learn trad.


mheyman


Aug 9, 2008, 8:29 AM
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Re: [tedman] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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tedman wrote:
If you really dont like the bolts, then dont use them, its as simple as that. Other people who might not be as experienced or have the $ for a rack right now will appreciate them I'm sure...the elite and exclusive trad club that had all rights to unbolted lines now has to _share_. holy flying dogshit! people not as dedicated as me arn't allowed on my lines! get off gumby! You must have a swinging dick this long to get on my trad route!

Tedman you imply the jaablink is trying to limit access to routes due to ego. This is not the case if the routes are topropeabel as he claims.

And yes bolts on a route absolutely change the character of the route. As t2stone gunksgoer writes

gunksgoer wrote:
Bolting a good crack is like building convenience stores all along the john muir trail. Even if hikers decided not to stop at them they would completely change the character of the hike.

edited to correctly attribute quote


(This post was edited by mheyman on Aug 10, 2008, 5:43 PM)


stymingersfink


Aug 9, 2008, 8:49 AM
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Re: [mheyman] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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mheyman wrote:
And yes bolts on a route absolutely change the character of the route. As t2stone writes

In reply to:
Bolting a good crack is like building convenience stores all along the john muir trail. Even if hikers decided not to stop at them they would completely change the character of the hike.
^^i missed that earlier, but this is one time t2stone actually got it right.


Partner angry


Aug 9, 2008, 8:55 AM
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Re: [stymingersfink] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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stymingersfink wrote:
mheyman wrote:
And yes bolts on a route absolutely change the character of the route. As t2stone writes

In reply to:
Bolting a good crack is like building convenience stores all along the john muir trail. Even if hikers decided not to stop at them they would completely change the character of the hike.
^^i missed that earlier, but this is one time t2stone actually got it right.

I read that at 4am last night and didn't believe my eyes. I figured it was some trick of the late night. This time he hit the nail on the head, now I know he's a carpenter, but I just thought that meant he drank the wood stain.


Partner gunksgoer


Aug 9, 2008, 9:54 AM
Post #73 of 140 (2191 views)
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Re: [mheyman] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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mheyman wrote:
And yes bolts on a route absolutely change the character of the route. As t2stone writes

In reply to:
Bolting a good crack is like building convenience stores all along the john muir trail. Even if hikers decided not to stop at them they would completely change the character of the hike.

Actually, I wrote that. It got quoted incorrectly.


(This post was edited by gunksgoer on Aug 9, 2008, 9:55 AM)


stymingersfink


Aug 9, 2008, 10:03 AM
Post #74 of 140 (2184 views)
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Re: [gunksgoer] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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gunksgoer wrote:
mheyman wrote:
And yes bolts on a route absolutely change the character of the route. As t2stonegunksgoer writes

In reply to:
Bolting a good crack is like building convenience stores all along the john muir trail. Even if hikers decided not to stop at them they would completely change the character of the hike.

Actually, I wrote that. It got quoted incorrectly.
well, that explains it then!


edit: fixed the incorrect reference within the quote


(This post was edited by stymingersfink on Aug 9, 2008, 10:06 AM)


mheyman


Aug 9, 2008, 1:36 PM
Post #75 of 140 (2134 views)
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Re: [gunksgoer] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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Sorry gunksgoer. I have reattributed the quote.
The analogy was apropos.


tradrenn


Aug 9, 2008, 2:56 PM
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Re: [jaablink] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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It's chopping time man.


tradrenn


Aug 9, 2008, 3:32 PM
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Re: [tedman] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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I don't think I will ever understand the way you and people like you think.

Bolting next to crack doesn't make any sense to me, especially in 21 century, were we have superior ropes, superior trad gear, we must rise to the difficulty of the climb and not lower it by adding bolts. One must learn to place good gear and the sky is the limit.

With enough drive and determination most of us should be able to lead around 10b no problem, I got there after doing mostly geared protected routes in last 6 years, so can you.


camplicated


Aug 10, 2008, 4:57 PM
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Re: [t2stone] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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t2stone wrote:
UMM~,

Did someone say TROLL? Crazy
HONESTLY peeps.... would anyone really DRILL? NEXT TO A 30$ USED CAM PLACEMENT? HMM WHAT1 would motivate this kinda CRAP!
lets see here.....?
I see many "excuses" here,but do 2 my "poor" typing/spelling I will get us "going" w/t THE TOP 3 REASONS I BOLTED A CRACK

#1 sport~weeniew/t an ego prob-" @ the coffeeshop s~weenie has 2 tell he/she cohorts that they climbed a 5.9 2-day on lead! )^:

#2 sport~weenie has 2 much $/time on he/she hands now- s`weenie has a trustfund and has been reading rock n ice alot...buy drill go 2 cliff and "pervert" the nature of the rocks.

#3 sport~wennie CAN now climb 5.8 but, would NEVER "trust" a nut or an aiein 4 that matter... buys drill and gets to climb a crack on lead fer once....MadPirate

so was reading the Onion and came across http://www.theonion.com/...t_to_post_comment_on
and I immediately thought of this discussion (well, RC.com in general)


t2stone


Aug 10, 2008, 5:33 PM
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Re: [camplicated] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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yeah, I think of Jerry~springer when I see these "sorts" of tid-bits, but hey it's raining alot and (sometimes) it's fun 2 rub the cats fur backwards isn't it?Unsure


(This post was edited by t2stone on Aug 10, 2008, 5:34 PM)


t2stone


Aug 10, 2008, 5:39 PM
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Re: [angry] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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angry? you are a saint!Smile


Upperlimits


Aug 11, 2008, 1:00 PM
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Re: [jt512] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
jrathfon wrote:
i am sorry, but i will absolutely never agree with a bolt next to a crack.

Any opinion on this:



My first thought was that I would whip out my handy dandy pocket knife and cut the rope. And yes I'm totally serious.

My second reacton was that his roots are growing out and it's about time to get back to the beauty salon.

My third reaction was that I'd call him up to the top of the climb and beat him within an inch of his life with a #2 BD. Then I'd shove it up his ass to make him remember the size and how it is properly placed.

I think I'll go with my third choice. And yes I'm serious.

It would be hard to contain my anger if I saw what was pictured. And I seriously hope that picture was staged for dramatic effect.


(This post was edited by Upperlimits on Aug 11, 2008, 1:03 PM)


Valarc


Aug 11, 2008, 1:06 PM
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Re: [Upperlimits] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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Upperlimits wrote:
My first thought was that I would whip out my handy dandy pocket knife and cut the rope. And yes I'm totally serious.

Psycho much? It's just a rock, and you'd seriously want to kill someone for drilling a hole in it?

People like YOU are why I find it so hard to side with the "bolting is bad" crowd.

Some people seriously need to gain some perspective in the world.


kriso9tails


Aug 11, 2008, 1:10 PM
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Upperlimits wrote:
It would be hard to contain my anger if I saw what was pictured. And I seriously hope that picture was staged for dramatic effect.

I know. It's a hair below genocide on the bad-shit-o-meter in my books. I mean, honestly, everyone knows that you don't wear tape to rap bolt cracks; its just poor form. I say ditch the tape and grid bolt that crag like a man.


rock_ranger


Aug 11, 2008, 1:58 PM
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Re: [Upperlimits] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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Upperlimits wrote:

My second reacton was that his roots are growing out and it's about time to get back to the beauty salon.

I'd add Rogaine as well, looks like he's thinning a little.


clee03m


Aug 11, 2008, 2:16 PM
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Re: [tedman] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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May be I can give you a few examples. One of my partners was a FA and bolted a route. He went back to climb it after few decades and was worried that the crux fall may not be clean and pose an injury potential. So he posted on cascadeclimbers.com about may be adding another bolt. Aside from the debate over whether as a FA, he had the right to add a bolt to an established route, the consensus was that to maintain the integrity of the climb, another bolt should not be placed. I lead that climb with him and agreed. What felt like a scary traverse would have felt so much easier if I there was another bolt or had the option of traversing back half way and clipping. Even on sport climbs, adding additional bolts change the character of the climb. Can you honestly say that sport routes at Stone Mountain known for scary 20-30 run outs would be the same climb if more bolts are added? Think of the hardest sport climb you have red pointed or on sighted and imagine if someone added a bolt between every bolt. That would be less elitist. But you wouldn't be annoyed? No, man. Adding bolts to established trad climbs is not cool.


justroberto


Aug 11, 2008, 3:26 PM
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Re: [clee03m] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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clee03m wrote:
Can you honestly say that sport routes at Stone Mountain known for scary 20-30 run outs

You haven't been to Stone before, have you?


snoopy138


Aug 11, 2008, 3:38 PM
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Re: [Upperlimits] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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Upperlimits wrote:
jt512 wrote:
jrathfon wrote:
i am sorry, but i will absolutely never agree with a bolt next to a crack.

Any opinion on this:

[img]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/1/286941-largest_76392.jpg[/img]

My first thought was that I would whip out my handy dandy pocket knife and cut the rope. And yes I'm totally serious.

My second reacton was that his roots are growing out and it's about time to get back to the beauty salon.

My third reaction was that I'd call him up to the top of the climb and beat him within an inch of his life with a #2 BD. Then I'd shove it up his ass to make him remember the size and how it is properly placed.

I think I'll go with my third choice. And yes I'm serious.

It would be hard to contain my anger if I saw what was pictured. And I seriously hope that picture was staged for dramatic effect.

I climbed that route yesterday. Fun 5.8ish crack climbing. I clipped a bolt right where his drill is going in, as well as a whole bunch more next to the crack. So, no, the picture was not staged for dramatic effect.


snoopy138


Aug 11, 2008, 3:39 PM
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snoopy138 wrote:
Upperlimits wrote:
jt512 wrote:
jrathfon wrote:
i am sorry, but i will absolutely never agree with a bolt next to a crack.

Any opinion on this:



My first thought was that I would whip out my handy dandy pocket knife and cut the rope. And yes I'm totally serious.

My second reacton was that his roots are growing out and it's about time to get back to the beauty salon.

My third reaction was that I'd call him up to the top of the climb and beat him within an inch of his life with a #2 BD. Then I'd shove it up his ass to make him remember the size and how it is properly placed.

I think I'll go with my third choice. And yes I'm serious.

It would be hard to contain my anger if I saw what was pictured. And I seriously hope that picture was staged for dramatic effect.

I climbed that route yesterday. Fun 5.8ish crack climbing. I clipped a bolt right where his drill is going in, as well as a whole bunch more next to the crack. So, no, the picture was not staged for dramatic effect.

fuck, cheesetitted it.


clee03m


Aug 11, 2008, 4:05 PM
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justroberto wrote:
clee03m wrote:
Can you honestly say that sport routes at Stone Mountain known for scary 20-30 run outs

You haven't been to Stone before, have you?

I have, acutally. It is more run out, eh? It's been a few years, and I was just there for 2 days. I just remember being too scared to lead.


jt512


Aug 11, 2008, 4:07 PM
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snoopy138 wrote:
Upperlimits wrote:
jt512 wrote:
jrathfon wrote:
i am sorry, but i will absolutely never agree with a bolt next to a crack.

Any opinion on this:



My first thought was that I would whip out my handy dandy pocket knife and cut the rope. And yes I'm totally serious.

My second reacton was that his roots are growing out and it's about time to get back to the beauty salon.

My third reaction was that I'd call him up to the top of the climb and beat him within an inch of his life with a #2 BD. Then I'd shove it up his ass to make him remember the size and how it is properly placed.

I think I'll go with my third choice. And yes I'm serious.

It would be hard to contain my anger if I saw what was pictured. And I seriously hope that picture was staged for dramatic effect.

I climbed that route yesterday. Fun 5.8ish crack climbing. I clipped a bolt right where his drill is going in, as well as a whole bunch more next to the crack. So, no, the picture was not staged for dramatic effect.

Did you get on Yellow Fever, too? How loose was it?

Jay


jt512


Aug 11, 2008, 4:10 PM
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Upperlimits wrote:
jt512 wrote:
jrathfon wrote:
i am sorry, but i will absolutely never agree with a bolt next to a crack.

Any opinion on this:



My first thought was that I would whip out my handy dandy pocket knife and cut the rope. And yes I'm totally serious.

My second reacton was that his roots are growing out and it's about time to get back to the beauty salon.

...I'd call him up to the top of the climb and beat him within an inch of his life with a #2 BD.

That's about as intelligent a post as I would expect from someone who would wait at the top of a route for someone who was bolting on rappel.

Jay


snoopy138


Aug 11, 2008, 4:14 PM
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jt512 wrote:
snoopy138 wrote:
Upperlimits wrote:
jt512 wrote:
jrathfon wrote:
i am sorry, but i will absolutely never agree with a bolt next to a crack.

Any opinion on this:

[img]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/1/286941-largest_76392.jpg[/img]

My first thought was that I would whip out my handy dandy pocket knife and cut the rope. And yes I'm totally serious.

My second reacton was that his roots are growing out and it's about time to get back to the beauty salon.

My third reaction was that I'd call him up to the top of the climb and beat him within an inch of his life with a #2 BD. Then I'd shove it up his ass to make him remember the size and how it is properly placed.

I think I'll go with my third choice. And yes I'm serious.

It would be hard to contain my anger if I saw what was pictured. And I seriously hope that picture was staged for dramatic effect.

I climbed that route yesterday. Fun 5.8ish crack climbing. I clipped a bolt right where his drill is going in, as well as a whole bunch more next to the crack. So, no, the picture was not staged for dramatic effect.

Did you get on Yellow Fever, too? How loose was it?

Jay

didn't do Yellow Fever, based on yore warning. and weren't really motivated at that point.

the start to russian roulette is really awkward. fun climbing from the 4th bolt until close to the the anchors, though.

can't believe you got somebody with this, yet again.


jt512


Aug 11, 2008, 4:24 PM
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snoopy138 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
snoopy138 wrote:
Upperlimits wrote:
jt512 wrote:
jrathfon wrote:
i am sorry, but i will absolutely never agree with a bolt next to a crack.

Any opinion on this:



My first thought was that I would whip out my handy dandy pocket knife and cut the rope. And yes I'm totally serious.

My second reacton was that his roots are growing out and it's about time to get back to the beauty salon.

My third reaction was that I'd call him up to the top of the climb and beat him within an inch of his life with a #2 BD. Then I'd shove it up his ass to make him remember the size and how it is properly placed.

I think I'll go with my third choice. And yes I'm serious.

It would be hard to contain my anger if I saw what was pictured. And I seriously hope that picture was staged for dramatic effect.

I climbed that route yesterday. Fun 5.8ish crack climbing. I clipped a bolt right where his drill is going in, as well as a whole bunch more next to the crack. So, no, the picture was not staged for dramatic effect.

Did you get on Yellow Fever, too? How loose was it?

Jay

didn't do Yellow Fever, based on yore warning. and weren't really motivated at that point.

the start to russian roulette is really awkward. fun climbing from the 4th bolt until close to the the anchors, though.

Awkward starts is the rule on that wall. I never led Russian Roulette. I was scared enough just toproping it.
In reply to:
can't believe you got somebody with this, yet again.

I had to post it. The thread was screaming out for this picture. It took three days to get a response. I was beginning to lose faith.

Jay


climbsomething


Aug 11, 2008, 4:28 PM
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snoopy138 wrote:

can't believe you got somebody with this, yet again.
Dude, it's like menstruating in a shark tank.


dingus


Aug 11, 2008, 4:30 PM
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climbsomething wrote:
snoopy138 wrote:

can't believe you got somebody with this, yet again.
Dude, it's like menstruating in a shark tank.

This is rc.com.... more like food coloring in the guppy tank.

DMT


climbsomething


Aug 11, 2008, 4:37 PM
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If y'all squint... and DEET gets in your eyes... it kinda looks like teh Needlez, non?






s6141a


Aug 11, 2008, 4:58 PM
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I bet if you took a poll of all climbers who have climbed for at least five years-95% would have the opinion of leaving the climb as it was done on the 1st ascent. If you would poll climbers who have done a few 1st ascents-it would probably be 100%. Yes-there is ego involved here-lots of it. In most cases the ego drives everyone who is successful at any endeavor. I look at a beautiful line as a work of art and hopefully any climber worth their salt ought to feel the same. Anyone climbing ought to respect the creation of the 1st ascent party and leave the route as is-PERIOD! In the Northeast-this is the prevailing opinion held by veteran climbers; although there seems to be a few who continue to have NO respect for the generations before them.


edl


Aug 11, 2008, 4:59 PM
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climbsomething wrote:
If y'all squint... and DEET gets in your eyes... it kinda looks like teh Needlez, non?

[image]http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g317/hillarysdavis/Frogland81281306/frogland3.jpg[/image]

[image]http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g317/hillarysdavis/Frogland81281306/annacrack1.jpg[/image]

Actually if I squint the flake in that second picture looks kind of like a giant dick. Russian Roulette I take it? Gives more depth to the name I suppose.

Jay, do you really support bolting beautiful perfectly protectible cracks? Just curious.


snoopy138


Aug 11, 2008, 5:16 PM
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climbsomething wrote:
If y'all squint... and DEET gets in your eyes... it kinda looks like teh Needlez, non?

no.

and I'm not quoting those pics, I don't want jack to come after me with his rusty shiv.


climbsomething


Aug 11, 2008, 5:25 PM
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edl wrote:

Jay, do you really support bolting beautiful perfectly protectible cracks? Just curious.
Do you really believe that's what that feature is?

*drip drip*


sungam


Aug 11, 2008, 5:30 PM
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climbsomething wrote:
edl wrote:

Jay, do you really support bolting beautiful perfectly protectible cracks? Just curious.
Do you really believe that's what that feature is?

*drip drip*
DUH!
Come on, he trad climbs. Obviously you are just a bunch of bolt clipping pussies who can't climb a perfect splitter to save yourselves, so you put teh reel bolts in to make it easy and that, right?


toofreakinsexy1


Aug 11, 2008, 5:52 PM
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Damn, this guy solo's 60 feet and saves drowning children, what a bad ass... chop anything you want brother, those bolts, someone else's bolts, my balls, WHATEVER! haha, but on a serious note, I saved 67 sick seal pups from clubbers. Just throwin that out there.


Valarc


Aug 11, 2008, 5:59 PM
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toofreakinsexy1 wrote:
on a serious note, I saved 67 sick seal pups from clubbers. Just throwin that out there.

That was YOU?! I swear, man, you deprive me of my baby-seal-fur money one more time, and I'll beat your ass with a camalot and then shove it up your anus in a totally non-gay way!!!


toofreakinsexy1


Aug 11, 2008, 6:19 PM
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Valarc wrote:
toofreakinsexy1 wrote:
on a serious note, I saved 67 sick seal pups from clubbers. Just throwin that out there.

That was YOU?! I swear, man, you deprive me of my baby-seal-fur money one more time, and I'll beat your ass with a camalot and then shove it up your anus in a totally non-gay way!!!

On a positive note, if you fell, you couldn't find a more bomber placement... I'd trust it with my tongue... LIFE, I meant life....


climbsomething


Aug 11, 2008, 6:29 PM
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sungam wrote:
climbsomething wrote:
edl wrote:

Jay, do you really support bolting beautiful perfectly protectible cracks? Just curious.
Do you really believe that's what that feature is?

*drip drip*
DUH!
Come on, he trad climbs. Obviously you are just a bunch of bolt clipping pussies who can't climb a perfect splitter to save yourselves, so you put teh reel bolts in to make it easy and that, right?
Sumthin like dat.

This spr0t reekwires nutz of teh other variety!!!!!!!!!!11


pyrosis


Aug 11, 2008, 6:31 PM
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jt512 wrote:

That's about as intelligent a post as I would expect from someone who would wait at the top of a route for someone who was bolting on rappel.

I knew if I kept reading long enough there would be something amusing in this thread!

Best post I've seen in weeks.

Cheers!


stymingersfink


Aug 11, 2008, 7:08 PM
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the words elude me right now, but damnit this has turned into a thread worth reading.


I knew it was only a matter of time, Jay. Nice work.

I'll bet even the most vocal of the anti-bolt-the-crack crowd would clip every one of those bolts were they to climb that route themselves. Probably out of sheer preservation, though if not their own pathetic life, then the life of their belayer.

That dagger hanging there looks fuckin' dangerous, for sure.


healyje


Aug 11, 2008, 10:55 PM
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It's a no brainer - if it's protectable with gear then chop, chop - the sooner the better....


jt512


Aug 12, 2008, 10:08 AM
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healyje wrote:
It's a no brainer - if it's protectable with gear then chop, chop - the sooner the better....

Based on the last three uses of the phrases "no brainer," I'm convinced that a "no brainer" is actually a belief that cannot be rationally defended.

Jay


jrathfon


Aug 12, 2008, 10:32 AM
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jt512 wrote:
snoopy138 wrote:
jt512 wrote:
snoopy138 wrote:
Upperlimits wrote:
jt512 wrote:
jrathfon wrote:
i am sorry, but i will absolutely never agree with a bolt next to a crack.

Any opinion on this:

[img]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/1/286941-largest_76392.jpg[/img]

My first thought was that I would whip out my handy dandy pocket knife and cut the rope. And yes I'm totally serious.

My second reacton was that his roots are growing out and it's about time to get back to the beauty salon.

My third reaction was that I'd call him up to the top of the climb and beat him within an inch of his life with a #2 BD. Then I'd shove it up his ass to make him remember the size and how it is properly placed.

I think I'll go with my third choice. And yes I'm serious.

It would be hard to contain my anger if I saw what was pictured. And I seriously hope that picture was staged for dramatic effect.

I climbed that route yesterday. Fun 5.8ish crack climbing. I clipped a bolt right where his drill is going in, as well as a whole bunch more next to the crack. So, no, the picture was not staged for dramatic effect.

Did you get on Yellow Fever, too? How loose was it?

Jay

In reply to:
didn't do Yellow Fever, based on yore warning. and weren't really motivated at that point.

the start to russian roulette is really awkward. fun climbing from the 4th bolt until close to the the anchors, though.

In reply to:
Awkward starts is the rule on that wall. I never led Russian Roulette. I was scared enough just toproping it.

can't believe you got somebody with this, yet again.

I had to post it. The thread was screaming out for this picture. It took three days to get a response. I was beginning to lose faith.

Jay

ya, i knew the jig and the background story, so i just let it ride to see if anyone else would get reeled in.

edited: dang quote frig


(This post was edited by jrathfon on Aug 12, 2008, 10:36 AM)


jaablink


Aug 12, 2008, 10:51 AM
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The 3 poorly placed 24KN Pagan Gear bolts have been Chopped . The land managers requested the removal of 4 more bolts also in the area (the bolter is following this thread , Please inform RH of this)


healyje


Aug 12, 2008, 10:54 AM
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Good job, keep up the good work...


justroberto


Aug 14, 2008, 9:04 AM
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clee03m wrote:
justroberto wrote:
clee03m wrote:
Can you honestly say that sport routes at Stone Mountain known for scary 20-30 run outs

You haven't been to Stone before, have you?

I have, acutally. It is more run out, eh? It's been a few years, and I was just there for 2 days. I just remember being too scared to lead.
Eh, the 20 and 30 are pretty par for the course. It's the 50 foot runout and above that are a little heady.


edl


Aug 14, 2008, 3:17 PM
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climbsomething wrote:
Do you really believe that's what that feature is?

*drip drip*

Yea, I'm really fucking stupid and THATS what I think is going on there.Crazy

Jay, I hope for your sake that that route never kills anyone because that column/flake/dick collapsed on them.

This is a serious question for JAY. He always gets on to attack the stance that bolts don't belong next to perfect gear placements, instead promoting a bolt the world standpoint. I want to know why this is. Do you really think that everything should be bolted Jay?

Oh wait, I just know this is a sceme perpetrated by the brilliant jt512 and climbsomething in order to ____________ and I just took the bait. DAMN!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111


climbsomething


Aug 14, 2008, 3:19 PM
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edl wrote:
climbsomething wrote:
Do you really believe that's what that feature is?

*drip drip*

Yea, I'm really fucking stupid and THATS what I think is going on there.Crazy
You said it. I didn't.

In reply to:
Oh wait, I just know this is a sceme perpetrated by the brilliant... climbsomething
You said it. I didn't.


edl


Aug 14, 2008, 8:39 PM
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climbsomething wrote:
edl wrote:
climbsomething wrote:
Do you really believe that's what that feature is?

*drip drip*

Oh wait, I just know this is a sceme perpetrated by the brilliant... climbsomething
You said it. I didn't.

In reply to:
Yea, I'm really fucking stupid and THATS what I think is going on.[crazy
You said it. I didn't.



Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! DDDDUUUUUURRRRR!!!111


gigz5


Aug 14, 2008, 10:14 PM
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"if you have the balls and are confident and competent in your ability SOLO IT"
"a line I often solo"
"I now solo it often, as well as every rout on the entire wall for training instead of going to a gym."
"I have the FA"
"who's son i saved from drowning 2 years ago...."
"I have been contracted to develop private crags"
"I replace old unsafe face climb bolts, "on request"
"I have my own bolts. I don‘t need someone else’s that will be destroyed when I yank them"
"Putting a bolt on an easy trad protect-able line is criminal."
"I have climbed each line hundreds if not thousands of times"


jaablink


holy shit, what an amazing guy, you are sooo cool, i can't believe how awesome you are..............are you really this insecure?


"Post up a climbing resume, show us your experience, let us see the amount of your life you've put into climbing. Or shut the fuck up." angry


This almost puts you as the biggest tool in the thread.....but the shear mass & energy jaablink threw into trying to prove, to no one in particular, how awesome he is, the Gold medal for the biggest tool shed has to go to him. but i am curious, oh self appointed almighty authority on who is allowed to have an opinion, what criteria do you use? what exactly is the percentage of life must one have "put into climbing" to be allowed to speak?


notapplicable


Aug 15, 2008, 7:03 AM
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gigz5 wrote:
"Post up a climbing resume, show us your experience, let us see the amount of your life you've put into climbing. Or shut the fuck up." angry


This almost puts you as the biggest tool in the thread.....but i am curious, oh self appointed almighty authority on who is allowed to have an opinion, what criteria do you use? what exactly is the percentage of life must one have "put into climbing" to be allowed to speak?


Your way off base here. The length of time one's involved in climbing, the type and frequency of climbing and the exposure to different communities of climbers, goes a long way towards putting their opinion in context. If a person doesnt have a posting history on here, by which people have gotten to know them and their experiences, then a "resume" of sorts would be helpful. Sure he and anyone else can have an opinion but its much less meaningful without context.

I'm sorry and your free to disagree, but a person with 5 months of gym and sport climbing under their belt is going to be hard put to have a well informed opinion on a topic like the one being discussed in this thread. A person with 15 years experience could also have a completely uninformed opinion but its much less likely. The same is true for much of life.


0x2102


Aug 15, 2008, 7:29 AM
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jaablink wrote:
The 3 poorly placed 24KN Pagan Gear bolts have been Chopped . The land managers requested the removal of 4 more bolts also in the area (the bolter is following this thread , Please inform RH of this)

Sooooo........how were they clipped chopped? Do tell!


(This post was edited by 0x2102 on Aug 15, 2008, 7:30 AM)


jaablink


Aug 15, 2008, 8:53 AM
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I don’t have time to give you a lesson on ethics now. I am going climbing to practice my craft. Sometime this week I will pm you with that lesson, in between work and training on a rainey day. :-*

“Man is never so authentically himself as when he is at play.” Schiller
So I must be a lunatic...


jaablink


Aug 18, 2008, 11:30 AM
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     I received a post form a man in Oregon. I viewed his photos and checked out his profile, he is on a hemp rope tied around his waist moving through a roof . He is , as are others like him - a true pioneer and deserve our utmost respect . At that time they pushed the limits of their bodied and the limitations of their gear .
Now we have Dynamic lines, wire nuts, S.L.C.D.’s , and numerous other highly effective ways to protect our climbs. Advancements are constantly being made. There are no excuses to go bolting a trad line. That takes away the adventure. Hell; even in sport areas around here. Where I also play. No one is bolting lines that can be protected with gear. There is a set ethic that almost all of us agree with .
Most basic Ethics can be found in many books and guides , one notable “Freedom of the Hills 7th ed”, at the top of the AMGA’s recommended reading list.

What is and is not acceptable?
Lets say someone add a bolt to an established line at the Gunks (High E) . I can say without a doubt , there would be no corner of the world the bolter would be safe in. That person would have taken the adventure away from the classic climb, and directly broke every ethical rule climbers do follow and agree on (if you don’t agree you are not a !rock climber). People come from all over the world to do Trad lines in the USA . Europe is bolted all over , they fukt it up in the 80’s and 90’s . Now there are huge movements to go back to trad on protect able climbs because adequate protection now exists.

Bolts do take away from the mental game.
You should be strong minded when your doing this activity , or you will get fukt.

We train on the boulders to become strong enough to play on routs in the crags. We train on the crags to hone and sharpen our skills- to play on the big walls. How can you learn to find the line when it is given to you , a nice and shiny row of bolts…? Where is the adventure in that? There is no shortcut to this game. If the answers have been given to you ; what have you learned? ? ?

(this specifically directed - you know who you R)
(this ethic is the same as “baseball” there are rules. It is considered bad form- to blast the batter in the nuts. Only an ass hole would stoop so low, and it is punishable…) That is why the bolts were removed and the names were not turned in so that legal action would be taken. This is a legal issue, the bolts were not contracted. There have never been bolts on this land, this already is a touchy area for access, and the land managers can restrict access ... All because some piss head wants to leave his mark by bolting a 5.9 crack. You have a problem with that. Buy the land and bolt away. Let me know how that works out for you….

At least Angry is real in his statement. Some of us dedicate countless hours to this craft so that others can have access to these areas. We build the trails , clean the rock, and when needed -protect the rout. We are the explorers who venture out into the unknown , who see the beauty in the line. You just like to follow the shiny bolts because you would get lost any other way.

I am not a very good writer. I hope this wasn’t too hard to follow.

I’m going climbing to work off this anger….


carabiner96


Aug 18, 2008, 11:46 AM
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jaablink wrote:
I received a post form a man in Oregon. I viewed his photos and checked out his profile, he is on a hemp rope tied around his waist moving through a roof . He is , as are others like him - a true pioneer and deserve our utmost respect . At that time they pushed the limits of their bodied and the limitations of their gear .
Now we have Dynamic lines, wire nuts, S.L.C.D.’s , and numerous other highly effective ways to protect our climbs. Advancements are constantly being made. There are no excuses to go bolting a trad line. That takes away the adventure. Hell; even in sport areas around here. Where I also play. No one is bolting lines that can be protected with gear. There is a set ethic that almost all of us agree with .
Most basic Ethics can be found in many books and guides , one notable “Freedom of the Hills 7th ed”, at the top of the AMGA’s recommended reading list.

What is and is not acceptable?
Lets say someone add a bolt to an established line at the Gunks (High E) . I can say without a doubt , there would be no corner of the world the bolter would be safe in. That person would have taken the adventure away from the classic climb, and directly broke every ethical rule climbers do follow and agree on (if you don’t agree you are not a !rock climber). People come from all over the world to do Trad lines in the USA . Europe is bolted all over , they fukt it up in the 80’s and 90’s . Now there are huge movements to go back to trad on protect able climbs because adequate protection now exists.

Bolts do take away from the mental game.
You should be strong minded when your doing this activity , or you will get fukt.

We train on the boulders to become strong enough to play on routs in the crags. We train on the crags to hone and sharpen our skills- to play on the big walls. How can you learn to find the line when it is given to you , a nice and shiny row of bolts…? Where is the adventure in that? There is no shortcut to this game. If the answers have been given to you ; what have you learned? ? ?

(this specifically directed - you know who you R)
(this ethic is the same as “baseball” there are rules. It is considered bad form- to blast the batter in the nuts. Only an ass hole would stoop so low, and it is punishable…) That is why the bolts were removed and the names were not turned in so that legal action would be taken. This is a legal issue, the bolts were not contracted. There have never been bolts on this land, this already is a touchy area for access, and the land managers can restrict access ... All because some piss head wants to leave his mark by bolting a 5.9 crack. You have a problem with that. Buy the land and bolt away. Let me know how that works out for you….

At least Angry is real in his statement. Some of us dedicate countless hours to this craft so that others can have access to these areas. We build the trails , clean the rock, and when needed -protect the rout. We are the explorers who venture out into the unknown , who see the beauty in the line. You just like to follow the shiny bolts because you would get lost any other way.

I am not a very good writer. I hope this wasn’t too hard to follow.

I’m going climbing to work off this anger….

^^^ I'm not reading that.


sungam


Aug 18, 2008, 4:26 PM
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I'll summarize it for you.
He thinks it is teh ghey to bolt tradable lines, and europe is already screwed, and you should pick me in the cowfee shawp instead of uhoh.


stymingersfink


Aug 18, 2008, 5:00 PM
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sungam wrote:
I'll summarize it for you.
He thinks it is teh ghey to bolt tradable lines, and europe is already screwed, and you should pick me in the cowfee shawp instead of uhoh.

'biner, allow me to summarize ^^that^^ for you.

korekt, core wrecked, and rong.


notapplicable


Aug 18, 2008, 8:01 PM
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carabiner96 wrote:
jaablink wrote:
I received a post form a man in Oregon. I viewed his photos and checked out his profile, he is on a hemp rope tied around his waist moving through a roof . He is , as are others like him - a true pioneer and deserve our utmost respect . At that time they pushed the limits of their bodied and the limitations of their gear .
Now we have Dynamic lines, wire nuts, S.L.C.D.’s , and numerous other highly effective ways to protect our climbs. Advancements are constantly being made. There are no excuses to go bolting a trad line. That takes away the adventure. Hell; even in sport areas around here. Where I also play. No one is bolting lines that can be protected with gear. There is a set ethic that almost all of us agree with .
Most basic Ethics can be found in many books and guides , one notable “Freedom of the Hills 7th ed”, at the top of the AMGA’s recommended reading list.

What is and is not acceptable?
Lets say someone add a bolt to an established line at the Gunks (High E) . I can say without a doubt , there would be no corner of the world the bolter would be safe in. That person would have taken the adventure away from the classic climb, and directly broke every ethical rule climbers do follow and agree on (if you don’t agree you are not a !rock climber). People come from all over the world to do Trad lines in the USA . Europe is bolted all over , they fukt it up in the 80’s and 90’s . Now there are huge movements to go back to trad on protect able climbs because adequate protection now exists.

Bolts do take away from the mental game.
You should be strong minded when your doing this activity , or you will get fukt.

We train on the boulders to become strong enough to play on routs in the crags. We train on the crags to hone and sharpen our skills- to play on the big walls. How can you learn to find the line when it is given to you , a nice and shiny row of bolts…? Where is the adventure in that? There is no shortcut to this game. If the answers have been given to you ; what have you learned? ? ?

(this specifically directed - you know who you R)
(this ethic is the same as “baseball” there are rules. It is considered bad form- to blast the batter in the nuts. Only an ass hole would stoop so low, and it is punishable…) That is why the bolts were removed and the names were not turned in so that legal action would be taken. This is a legal issue, the bolts were not contracted. There have never been bolts on this land, this already is a touchy area for access, and the land managers can restrict access ... All because some piss head wants to leave his mark by bolting a 5.9 crack. You have a problem with that. Buy the land and bolt away. Let me know how that works out for you….

At least Angry is real in his statement. Some of us dedicate countless hours to this craft so that others can have access to these areas. We build the trails , clean the rock, and when needed -protect the rout. We are the explorers who venture out into the unknown , who see the beauty in the line. You just like to follow the shiny bolts because you would get lost any other way.

I am not a very good writer. I hope this wasn’t too hard to follow.

I’m going climbing to work off this anger….

^^^ I'm not reading that.

I read it. He said things that are true.


carabiner96


Aug 18, 2008, 8:10 PM
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notapplicable wrote:
carabiner96 wrote:
jaablink wrote:
I received a post form a man in Oregon. I viewed his photos and checked out his profile, he is on a hemp rope tied around his waist moving through a roof . He is , as are others like him - a true pioneer and deserve our utmost respect . At that time they pushed the limits of their bodied and the limitations of their gear .
Now we have Dynamic lines, wire nuts, S.L.C.D.’s , and numerous other highly effective ways to protect our climbs. Advancements are constantly being made. There are no excuses to go bolting a trad line. That takes away the adventure. Hell; even in sport areas around here. Where I also play. No one is bolting lines that can be protected with gear. There is a set ethic that almost all of us agree with .
Most basic Ethics can be found in many books and guides , one notable “Freedom of the Hills 7th ed”, at the top of the AMGA’s recommended reading list.

What is and is not acceptable?
Lets say someone add a bolt to an established line at the Gunks (High E) . I can say without a doubt , there would be no corner of the world the bolter would be safe in. That person would have taken the adventure away from the classic climb, and directly broke every ethical rule climbers do follow and agree on (if you don’t agree you are not a !rock climber). People come from all over the world to do Trad lines in the USA . Europe is bolted all over , they fukt it up in the 80’s and 90’s . Now there are huge movements to go back to trad on protect able climbs because adequate protection now exists.

Bolts do take away from the mental game.
You should be strong minded when your doing this activity , or you will get fukt.

We train on the boulders to become strong enough to play on routs in the crags. We train on the crags to hone and sharpen our skills- to play on the big walls. How can you learn to find the line when it is given to you , a nice and shiny row of bolts…? Where is the adventure in that? There is no shortcut to this game. If the answers have been given to you ; what have you learned? ? ?

(this specifically directed - you know who you R)
(this ethic is the same as “baseball” there are rules. It is considered bad form- to blast the batter in the nuts. Only an ass hole would stoop so low, and it is punishable…) That is why the bolts were removed and the names were not turned in so that legal action would be taken. This is a legal issue, the bolts were not contracted. There have never been bolts on this land, this already is a touchy area for access, and the land managers can restrict access ... All because some piss head wants to leave his mark by bolting a 5.9 crack. You have a problem with that. Buy the land and bolt away. Let me know how that works out for you….

At least Angry is real in his statement. Some of us dedicate countless hours to this craft so that others can have access to these areas. We build the trails , clean the rock, and when needed -protect the rout. We are the explorers who venture out into the unknown , who see the beauty in the line. You just like to follow the shiny bolts because you would get lost any other way.

I am not a very good writer. I hope this wasn’t too hard to follow.

I’m going climbing to work off this anger….

^^^ I'm not reading that.

I read it. He said things that are true.


Including:

In reply to:
I am not a very good writer. I hope this wasn’t too hard to follow.


curt


Aug 18, 2008, 8:18 PM
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carabiner96 wrote:
jaablink wrote:
I received a post form a man in Oregon. I viewed his photos and checked out his profile, he is on a hemp rope tied around his waist moving through a roof . He is , as are others like him - a true pioneer and deserve our utmost respect . At that time they pushed the limits of their bodied and the limitations of their gear .
Now we have Dynamic lines, wire nuts, S.L.C.D.’s , and numerous other highly effective ways to protect our climbs. Advancements are constantly being made. There are no excuses to go bolting a trad line. That takes away the adventure. Hell; even in sport areas around here. Where I also play. No one is bolting lines that can be protected with gear. There is a set ethic that almost all of us agree with .
Most basic Ethics can be found in many books and guides , one notable “Freedom of the Hills 7th ed”, at the top of the AMGA’s recommended reading list.

What is and is not acceptable?
Lets say someone add a bolt to an established line at the Gunks (High E) . I can say without a doubt , there would be no corner of the world the bolter would be safe in. That person would have taken the adventure away from the classic climb, and directly broke every ethical rule climbers do follow and agree on (if you don’t agree you are not a !rock climber). People come from all over the world to do Trad lines in the USA . Europe is bolted all over , they fukt it up in the 80’s and 90’s . Now there are huge movements to go back to trad on protect able climbs because adequate protection now exists.

Bolts do take away from the mental game.
You should be strong minded when your doing this activity , or you will get fukt.

We train on the boulders to become strong enough to play on routs in the crags. We train on the crags to hone and sharpen our skills- to play on the big walls. How can you learn to find the line when it is given to you , a nice and shiny row of bolts…? Where is the adventure in that? There is no shortcut to this game. If the answers have been given to you ; what have you learned? ? ?

(this specifically directed - you know who you R)
(this ethic is the same as “baseball” there are rules. It is considered bad form- to blast the batter in the nuts. Only an ass hole would stoop so low, and it is punishable…) That is why the bolts were removed and the names were not turned in so that legal action would be taken. This is a legal issue, the bolts were not contracted. There have never been bolts on this land, this already is a touchy area for access, and the land managers can restrict access ... All because some piss head wants to leave his mark by bolting a 5.9 crack. You have a problem with that. Buy the land and bolt away. Let me know how that works out for you….

At least Angry is real in his statement. Some of us dedicate countless hours to this craft so that others can have access to these areas. We build the trails , clean the rock, and when needed -protect the rout. We are the explorers who venture out into the unknown , who see the beauty in the line. You just like to follow the shiny bolts because you would get lost any other way.

I am not a very good writer. I hope this wasn’t too hard to follow.

I’m going climbing to work off this anger….

^^^ I'm not reading that.

Well, you should.

Curt


notapplicable


Aug 18, 2008, 8:28 PM
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carabiner96 wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
carabiner96 wrote:
jaablink wrote:
I received a post form a man in Oregon...

^^^ I'm not reading that.

I read it. He said things that are true.


Including:

In reply to:
I am not a very good writer. I hope this wasn’t too hard to follow.

I said true, not Hemmingwayesque.


stymingersfink


Aug 18, 2008, 9:21 PM
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curt wrote:
carabiner96 wrote:
jaablink wrote:
I received a post form a man in Oregon. I viewed his photos and checked out his profile, he is on a hemp rope tied around his waist moving through a roof . He is , as are others like him - a true pioneer and deserve our utmost respect . At that time they pushed the limits of their bodied and the limitations of their gear .
Now we have Dynamic lines, wire nuts, S.L.C.D.’s , and numerous other highly effective ways to protect our climbs. Advancements are constantly being made. There are no excuses to go bolting a trad line. That takes away the adventure. Hell; even in sport areas around here. Where I also play. No one is bolting lines that can be protected with gear. There is a set ethic that almost all of us agree with .
Most basic Ethics can be found in many books and guides , one notable “Freedom of the Hills 7th ed”, at the top of the AMGA’s recommended reading list.

What is and is not acceptable?
Lets say someone add a bolt to an established line at the Gunks (High E) . I can say without a doubt , there would be no corner of the world the bolter would be safe in. That person would have taken the adventure away from the classic climb, and directly broke every ethical rule climbers do follow and agree on (if you don’t agree you are not a !rock climber). People come from all over the world to do Trad lines in the USA . Europe is bolted all over , they fukt it up in the 80’s and 90’s . Now there are huge movements to go back to trad on protect able climbs because adequate protection now exists.

Bolts do take away from the mental game.
You should be strong minded when your doing this activity , or you will get fukt.

We train on the boulders to become strong enough to play on routs in the crags. We train on the crags to hone and sharpen our skills- to play on the big walls. How can you learn to find the line when it is given to you , a nice and shiny row of bolts…? Where is the adventure in that? There is no shortcut to this game. If the answers have been given to you ; what have you learned? ? ?

(this specifically directed - you know who you R)
(this ethic is the same as “baseball” there are rules. It is considered bad form- to blast the batter in the nuts. Only an ass hole would stoop so low, and it is punishable…) That is why the bolts were removed and the names were not turned in so that legal action would be taken. This is a legal issue, the bolts were not contracted. There have never been bolts on this land, this already is a touchy area for access, and the land managers can restrict access ... All because some piss head wants to leave his mark by bolting a 5.9 crack. You have a problem with that. Buy the land and bolt away. Let me know how that works out for you….

At least Angry is real in his statement. Some of us dedicate countless hours to this craft so that others can have access to these areas. We build the trails , clean the rock, and when needed -protect the rout. We are the explorers who venture out into the unknown , who see the beauty in the line. You just like to follow the shiny bolts because you would get lost any other way.

I am not a very good writer. I hope this wasn’t too hard to follow.

I’m going climbing to work off this anger….

^^^ I'm not reading that.

Well, you should.

Curt
^^iz tru


USnavy


Aug 19, 2008, 12:08 AM
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Re: [jaablink] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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jaablink wrote:
New bolts on an easily trad protect able wall below a crack. This is already a touchy area for access and this climb in particular is easily protectable using passive means. Therefore, I am going to clip them before they draw further attention. A difficult to protect face climb would be more appropriate to place bolt protection, a crack climb is inappropriate for bolting especially in an area that is mostly trad climbed. Also, before bolting, it is standard etiquette to gain permission from landowners or are developers as bolts are essentially defacement. This is an friendly FYI for someone who is obviously a novice.

Just randomly chopping bolts because you don’t think the route should have bolts is bullshit. Those bolts are personal property and taking them is stealing. How would you like if you bolted a climb and came back the next day to find someone stole all the bolts because they didn’t think the climb should have been bolted?

If you don’t like the bolts, don’t use them. It’s that simple. They are not preventing you from placing trad gear.


kriso9tails


Aug 19, 2008, 1:24 AM
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USnavy wrote:
Just randomly chopping bolts because you don’t think the route should have bolts is bullshit. Those bolts are personal property and taking them is stealing.

Feel free to report it to the authorities. I'm sure they'll get right on the case.

In reply to:
How would you like if you bolted a climb and came back the next day to find someone stole all the bolts because they didn’t think the climb should have been bolted?

There's a simple way to avoid this in the vast majority of cases: don't bolt against local ethics. Granted, I'm sure there are assholes when it comes to chopping, but despite your assertion above, I highly doubt that bolts remain personal property when permanently affixed to land. If the land isn't yours, I can't imagine you retain any rights towards the treatment of the bolts. Also, if the land isn't yours, then it's unlikely that you (or anyone else for that matter) have the right to dictate the ethics regarding bolting unilaterally. Accept it: if you can bolt it, someone else can chop it.

In reply to:
If you don’t like the bolts, don’t use them. It’s that simple. They are not preventing you from placing trad gear.

I think the fact that you clearly didn't read any of this thread and that you hold that opinion stem from the same one-sided, superficial nature.

Graffiti also doesn't prevent anyone from placing pro. Glowing neon signs pointing out the best holds also don't prevent anyone from placing pro. Should anything and everything that doesn't prevent someone from placing gear be deemed acceptable? Is that the only reason someone would object? To me that's as absurd as saying that the only reason to climb is to go up and get to the top.

Bolts are generally reserved for climbs or sections of climbs that are other wise unprotectable. The atmosphere I've always climbed in was one in which the climber met the challenge that the rock provided with as little compromise as possible; not one where climbers conformed the rock to their own deficiencies, inabilities or insecurities. Placing bolts in defiance of this mars the aesthetic nature of the climb; it mars the character and beauty of it and I don't feel at all selfish or unreasonable to say that it detracts from the quality of the rock and the quality of the experience.

Understand that this is not something as easily put into words as it is something that you just feel in your gut. I'm a little saddened at those that can't comprehend this as I feel they are truly missing out on a large part of what climbing has to offer.

It is by no means 'that simple' and I feel as if that's the line of reasoning you present, then you are missing something so fundamental that in an eternity of posting I could never explain to you why.

Whatever. That's my take on it, or at least a much abridged version. Take my opinion or leave it... just don't try to bolt it.

(This post was edited by kriso9tails on Aug 19, 2008, 1:35 AM)


Alpinisto


Aug 19, 2008, 5:20 AM
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Re: [kriso9tails] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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kriso9tails wrote:
Take my opinion or leave it... just don't try to bolt it.

:thumbs WAY up:

I'm adding this to my sig.


Tipton


Aug 19, 2008, 6:18 AM
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USnavy wrote:
jaablink wrote:
New bolts on an easily trad protect able wall below a crack. This is already a touchy area for access and this climb in particular is easily protectable using passive means. Therefore, I am going to clip them before they draw further attention. A difficult to protect face climb would be more appropriate to place bolt protection, a crack climb is inappropriate for bolting especially in an area that is mostly trad climbed. Also, before bolting, it is standard etiquette to gain permission from landowners or are developers as bolts are essentially defacement. This is an friendly FYI for someone who is obviously a novice.

Just randomly chopping bolts because you don’t think the route should have bolts is bullshit. Those bolts are personal property and taking them is stealing. How would you like if you bolted a climb and came back the next day to find someone stole all the bolts because they didn’t think the climb should have been bolted?

If you don’t like the bolts, don’t use them. It’s that simple. They are not preventing you from placing trad gear.

Dude, at least read the first few posts. You would have realized that this addressed a situation that was more than just randomly chopping bolts off a protectable climb.


fishbelly


Aug 19, 2008, 6:26 AM
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Re: [Tipton] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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This is a good troll. Why would any one anounce on a forum plans to chop or bolt aroute.Except to yank the chains of the self appointed . Just do it.


sungam


Aug 19, 2008, 6:28 AM
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fishbelly wrote:
This is a good troll. Why would any one anounce on a forum plans to chop or bolt aroute.Except to yank the chains of the self appointed . Just do it.
To give them a chance to remove them? to blow of some steam? plenty of good reasons.


Partner j_ung


Aug 19, 2008, 8:12 AM
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USnavy wrote:
jaablink wrote:
New bolts on an easily trad protect able wall below a crack. This is already a touchy area for access and this climb in particular is easily protectable using passive means. Therefore, I am going to clip them before they draw further attention. A difficult to protect face climb would be more appropriate to place bolt protection, a crack climb is inappropriate for bolting especially in an area that is mostly trad climbed. Also, before bolting, it is standard etiquette to gain permission from landowners or are developers as bolts are essentially defacement. This is an friendly FYI for someone who is obviously a novice.

Just randomly chopping bolts because you don’t think the route should have bolts is bullshit. Those bolts are personal property and taking them is stealing. How would you like if you bolted a climb and came back the next day to find someone stole all the bolts because they didn’t think the climb should have been bolted?

If you don’t like the bolts, don’t use them. It’s that simple. They are not preventing you from placing trad gear.


This is a righteous chopping, if ever I heard of one, and any obtuse and subjective opinions of climbers in regard to ethics have absolutely no bearing on it. In fact, your own argument about personal property is the very reason why climbing ethics should hold no sway here. I confess, I'm baffled as to why jaablink even brought climbing ethics into this discussion in the first place. It was totally unnecessary and appears to have clouded the real issue.

1. The bolts in question are on private land with borderline access.
2. The land owner specifically asked for the bolts to be removed.

What other reason does he need to remove these bolts? NONE.


jt512


Aug 19, 2008, 8:17 AM
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j_ung wrote:
It was totally unnecessary and appears to have clouded the real issue.

1. The bolts in question are on private land with borderline access.
2. The land owner specifically asked for the bolts to be removed.

What other reason does he need to remove these bolts? NONE.

He didn't even need those reasons. He was the FAist.

Jay


zeke_sf


Aug 19, 2008, 9:02 AM
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Upperlimits wrote:
jt512 wrote:
jrathfon wrote:
i am sorry, but i will absolutely never agree with a bolt next to a crack.

Any opinion on this:



My first thought was that I would whip out my handy dandy pocket knife and cut the rope. And yes I'm totally serious.

My second reacton was that his roots are growing out and it's about time to get back to the beauty salon.

My third reaction was that I'd call him up to the top of the climb and beat him within an inch of his life with a #2 BD. Then I'd shove it up his ass to make him remember the size and how it is properly placed.

I think I'll go with my third choice. And yes I'm serious.

It would be hard to contain my anger if I saw what was pictured. And I seriously hope that picture was staged for dramatic effect.

Hahahaha!!!1 It'd be funny watching you pull the rusty shiv out of your taint.


zeke_sf


Aug 19, 2008, 9:06 AM
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Posts: 18730

Re: [climbsomething] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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climbsomething wrote:
snoopy138 wrote:

can't believe you got somebody with this, yet again.
Dude, it's like menstruating in a shark tank.

Sentence of the year.


zeke_sf


Aug 19, 2008, 9:10 AM
Post #140 of 140 (1008 views)
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Registered: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 18730

Re: [carabiner96] NEW BOLTS on TRAD LINE!!! CLIPPED!!! [In reply to]
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carabiner96 wrote:
jaablink wrote:
I received a post form a man in Oregon. I viewed his photos and checked out his profile, he is on a hemp rope tied around his waist moving through a roof . He is , as are others like him - a true pioneer and deserve our utmost respect . At that time they pushed the limits of their bodied and the limitations of their gear .
Now we have Dynamic lines, wire nuts, S.L.C.D.’s , and numerous other highly effective ways to protect our climbs. Advancements are constantly being made. There are no excuses to go bolting a trad line. That takes away the adventure. Hell; even in sport areas around here. Where I also play. No one is bolting lines that can be protected with gear. There is a set ethic that almost all of us agree with .
Most basic Ethics can be found in many books and guides , one notable “Freedom of the Hills 7th ed”, at the top of the AMGA’s recommended reading list.

What is and is not acceptable?
Lets say someone add a bolt to an established line at the Gunks (High E) . I can say without a doubt , there would be no corner of the world the bolter would be safe in. That person would have taken the adventure away from the classic climb, and directly broke every ethical rule climbers do follow and agree on (if you don’t agree you are not a !rock climber). People come from all over the world to do Trad lines in the USA . Europe is bolted all over , they fukt it up in the 80’s and 90’s . Now there are huge movements to go back to trad on protect able climbs because adequate protection now exists.

Bolts do take away from the mental game.
You should be strong minded when your doing this activity , or you will get fukt.

We train on the boulders to become strong enough to play on routs in the crags. We train on the crags to hone and sharpen our skills- to play on the big walls. How can you learn to find the line when it is given to you , a nice and shiny row of bolts…? Where is the adventure in that? There is no shortcut to this game. If the answers have been given to you ; what have you learned? ? ?

(this specifically directed - you know who you R)
(this ethic is the same as “baseball” there are rules. It is considered bad form- to blast the batter in the nuts. Only an ass hole would stoop so low, and it is punishable…) That is why the bolts were removed and the names were not turned in so that legal action would be taken. This is a legal issue, the bolts were not contracted. There have never been bolts on this land, this already is a touchy area for access, and the land managers can restrict access ... All because some piss head wants to leave his mark by bolting a 5.9 crack. You have a problem with that. Buy the land and bolt away. Let me know how that works out for you….

At least Angry is real in his statement. Some of us dedicate countless hours to this craft so that others can have access to these areas. We build the trails , clean the rock, and when needed -protect the rout. We are the explorers who venture out into the unknown , who see the beauty in the line. You just like to follow the shiny bolts because you would get lost any other way.

I am not a very good writer. I hope this wasn’t too hard to follow.

I’m going climbing to work off this anger….

^^^ I'm not reading that.

eyes... blurring... cannot... focus... on... rant...


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