Forums: Climbing Information: The Lab:
Mid rappel haul system
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for The Lab

Premier Sponsor:

 


Lazlo


Sep 21, 2008, 1:56 AM
Post #1 of 45 (3572 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2007
Posts: 5070

Mid rappel haul system
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Don't ask me what the application is...but the idea popped into my head "What if I have to haul my partner back up the rappel ropes before we touch down!?" It's late...I can't sleep. I tried to work it out with my gear on the living room floor...but I'm too tired to figure it out straight.

I'm figuring on two rappel ropes. Lets say the one rappeler is unconcious and locked off with an autoblock.

You also happen to have any and all gear you own.


sungam


Sep 21, 2008, 4:43 AM
Post #2 of 45 (3554 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26576

Re: [Lazlo] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Lazlo wrote:
Don't ask me what the application is...but the idea popped into my head "What if I have to haul my partner back up the rappel ropes before we touch down!?" It's late...I can't sleep. I tried to work it out with my gear on the living room floor...but I'm too tired to figure it out straight.

I'm figuring on two rappel ropes. Lets say the one rappeler is unconcious and locked off with an autoblock.

You also happen to have any and all gear you own.
Only need 1 piece... the knifeTongue
But seriously, by autoblock you mean auto locker? I'm confused ho an autoblocker would lock like that, maybe you mean his prussik back up or something.
Anyways, let's take it as his prussik, and that I'm at the anchor waiting to rap. Otherwise I'm completely confused as to what you mean.
Assume the anchor could take it (if not, you'd have to back up and equalize) then I'd make either a pully system using a prussik around the rap ropes with a biner on it and a sling clipped to it that runs to the anchor, through a biner there, maybe back to through the prussik biner and back through the anchor. put all your weight on the sling and - if there isn't over much friction- your partner should go up a little bit. use another prussik to lock it off, then slide the pully prussik back down the rope and reapeat.
He buys the beers.


Lazlo


Sep 21, 2008, 10:23 AM
Post #3 of 45 (3520 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2007
Posts: 5070

Re: [sungam] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

...I JUST woke up...so I'm still blinking and can only think about coffee...but here it goes.

The auto block I mentioned; you might call a french prussic...if I recall correctly. It's a simplified Klemheist knot(if that helps). For the sake of the scenario; a prussick backup will work.

Now, I know it's plenty simple if there is only one rappel rope and the rescuer is waiting at the top to rap second.........but that's not what I'm saying. There are two rappel ropes/two rappellers. They are both free-hanging. I know one guy could just ascend back up then do a 7:1 from top side. But I'm operating on the assumption that he can't. The haul has to be done in mid-air. I think it could be easier anyway. (body-weight hauling on a 3:1 instead of 7:1)

I think I could figure it out if I was actually in the situation. But, eh. I'm at home.


sungam


Sep 21, 2008, 10:55 AM
Post #4 of 45 (3508 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26576

Re: [Lazlo] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Anchor = 3rd prussik attached on the hurt dude's rope?


Lazlo


Sep 21, 2008, 11:00 AM
Post #5 of 45 (3506 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2007
Posts: 5070

Re: [sungam] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

But you also need a progress-capture on victim's harness so that you can re-set the haul system.


colatownkid


Sep 21, 2008, 11:11 AM
Post #6 of 45 (3500 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 512

Re: [Lazlo] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Lazlo wrote:
Don't ask me what the application is...but the idea popped into my head "What if I have to haul my partner back up the rappel ropes before we touch down!?" It's late...I can't sleep. I tried to work it out with my gear on the living room floor...but I'm too tired to figure it out straight.

I'm figuring on two rappel ropes. Lets say the one rappeler is unconcious and locked off with an autoblock.

You also happen to have any and all gear you own.

Let's make sure I have this straight before I bother thinking about it:

Climber 1 is unconscious, suspended in mid-rappel, secured by his back-up friction hitch (type is totally irrelevant. hell, it could even be a petzl shunt). anyway, Climber 2 is the rescuer, in mid-rappel on a separate rope carrying the rack. Climber 2 is supposed to rescue Climber 1.

Are the climbers on single-line or double-line rappels? Also, what is the proximity of climber 1 to climber 2 and the respective ropes of the climbers?

edited for grammar.


(This post was edited by colatownkid on Sep 21, 2008, 11:16 AM)


Lazlo


Sep 21, 2008, 11:17 AM
Post #7 of 45 (3493 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2007
Posts: 5070

Re: [colatownkid] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

colatownkid wrote:

Let make sure I have this straight before I bother thinking about it:

Climber 1 is unconscious, suspended in mid-rappel, secured by his back-up friction hitch (type is totally irrelevant. hell, it could even be a petzl shunt). anyway, Climber 2 is the rescuer, in mid-rappel on a separate rope carrying the rack. Climber 2 is supposed to rescue both Climber 1.

Are the climbers on single-line or double-line rappels? Also, what is the proximity of climber 1 to climber 2 and the respective ropes of the climbers?

Right!

and...

Single line

Ropes/climbers are 1 foot apart.


(This post was edited by Lazlo on Sep 21, 2008, 11:18 AM)


sungam


Sep 21, 2008, 11:26 AM
Post #8 of 45 (3484 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26576

Re: [Lazlo] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Lazlo wrote:
But you also need a progress-capture on victim's harness so that you can re-set the haul system.
Just do what you would have done at the top but at the mid point.
Only this time you're moving upside down.


Lazlo


Sep 21, 2008, 11:34 AM
Post #9 of 45 (3481 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2007
Posts: 5070

Re: [Lazlo] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Where I'm finding my problem is how/what strand to atatch the progress capture to get it to self-feed. I'm actually thinking on placing it above the haul system on a cordalette so that the rescuer can manage it.


moose_droppings


Sep 21, 2008, 11:38 AM
Post #10 of 45 (3476 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3348

Re: [Lazlo] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Rap to your buddies side, let your autoblock hold you. Attach buddy to yourself (runner, quickdraw). Reach over and release his autoblock till he's weighted on you. Undo his rap device and autoblock off his line. Release your autoblock and rap down with buddy attached to you.

If your worried about your autoblock not holding while your taking him off his line, you could tie an OH below you to stand on, then untie after you've secured your autoblock with both of you on it.


Lazlo


Sep 21, 2008, 11:43 AM
Post #11 of 45 (3471 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2007
Posts: 5070

Re: [moose_droppings] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Yeah, in most all situations, that's what you'd do...but it started bugging me that I couldn't think the haul system through. I'm just over-complicating it. I'll figure it out at the crag later today, I'm sure.


Lazlo


Sep 21, 2008, 11:48 AM
Post #12 of 45 (3467 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2007
Posts: 5070

Re: [Lazlo] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Just figured it out...garda hitch at the lowest "pulley" point on victim. No need to 'manage' device.


colatownkid


Sep 21, 2008, 11:57 AM
Post #13 of 45 (3457 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 512

Re: [moose_droppings] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

moose_droppings wrote:
Rap to your buddies side, let your autoblock hold you. Attach buddy to yourself (runner, quickdraw). Reach over and release his autoblock till he's weighted on you. Undo his rap device and autoblock off his line. Release your autoblock and rap down with buddy attached to you.

Yep, no need to bother messing with a haul. you're already on the way down anyway.


billl7


Sep 21, 2008, 12:00 PM
Post #14 of 45 (3453 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1888

Re: [Lazlo] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Assuming you want to return to the anchor above, would it help to focus on a body haul with a 2:1 system using the rope that trails from his belay device? For example, if he has an ATC then the integrated biner can act as pulley (ATC becomes passive). Could you set up a haul system where his trail line goes up through a biner/pulley fixed above you and then back down to you. Then use your legs and prusiks/ascenders to pull down on that line.

I know there's a lot of missing details in the above (e.g., backups, how to reset efficiently). Also, at least the upper biner I mention probably needs to be a pulley or the friction from the two biners will likely be a problem.

Bill
Rescue Amateur


moose_droppings


Sep 21, 2008, 12:01 PM
Post #15 of 45 (3452 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3348

Re: [Lazlo] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Your partner already has a load releasable point in his system. Don't know why you need to lift and capture.


Lazlo


Sep 21, 2008, 12:06 PM
Post #16 of 45 (3448 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2007
Posts: 5070

Re: [colatownkid] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

colatownkid wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
Rap to your buddies side, let your autoblock hold you. Attach buddy to yourself (runner, quickdraw). Reach over and release his autoblock till he's weighted on you. Undo his rap device and autoblock off his line. Release your autoblock and rap down with buddy attached to you.

Yep, no need to bother messing with a haul. you're already on the way down anyway.

The only real scenario I can think of:

Victim has massive head trauma from falling rock. Medical attention is urgently needed.
Both rappers have only descended like 20' (it's short.)
No cell reception.
If they finish the rappel, there still won't be cell reception AND a long improbable walk-out.
Victim might die if I don't get him up the 20' and into my car.
Hauling next to victim is important due to terrain.

Meh. It's Sunday morning and I'm bored. Can I just go climb?


Lazlo


Sep 21, 2008, 12:08 PM
Post #17 of 45 (3442 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2007
Posts: 5070

Re: [billl7] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

billl7 wrote:
Assuming you want to return to the anchor above, would it help to focus on a body haul with a 2:1 system using the rope that trails from his belay device? For example, if he has an ATC then the integrated biner can act as pulley (ATC becomes passive). Could you set up a haul system where his trail line goes up through a biner/pulley fixed above you and then back down to you. Then use your legs and prusiks/ascenders to pull down on that line.

I know there's a lot of missing details in the above (e.g., backups, how to reset efficiently). Also, at least the upper biner I mention probably needs to be a pulley or the friction from the two biners will likely be a problem.

Bill
Rescue Amateur

I like this theory a lot...And it works well if the victim is locked on a prussic and not an autoblock.

Passive ATC would become a prussic-minder. Cool


(This post was edited by Lazlo on Sep 21, 2008, 12:13 PM)


Lazlo


Sep 21, 2008, 12:09 PM
Post #18 of 45 (3440 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2007
Posts: 5070

Re: [Lazlo] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

And the body counter weight would be sufficient considering the 2:1 advantage.


Lazlo


Sep 21, 2008, 12:10 PM
Post #19 of 45 (3435 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2007
Posts: 5070

Re: [moose_droppings] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

moose_droppings wrote:
Your partner already has a load releasable point in his system. Don't know why you need to lift and capture.

If he's using grigri, I agree. I was assuming a tube-style device.


billl7


Sep 21, 2008, 12:13 PM
Post #20 of 45 (3430 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1888

Re: [Lazlo] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Lazlo wrote:
And the body counter weight would be sufficient considering the 2:1 advantage.
Even assuming the friction doesn't kill the advantage, my head hurts thinking about all the details and how much time this is going to take.

Hmm, just go climbing and don't get hurt?Smile


Lazlo


Sep 21, 2008, 12:17 PM
Post #21 of 45 (3425 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2007
Posts: 5070

Re: [billl7] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

billl7 wrote:
my head hurts thinking about all the details and how much time this is going to take.

Glad I'm not the only oneSmile


sungam


Sep 21, 2008, 12:18 PM
Post #22 of 45 (3423 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26576

Re: [Lazlo] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I assumed you were talking about a plce like the Verdon Gorge where you rape 3 pitches in, hanging belay, then climb out. You would then have to haul back out.


moose_droppings


Sep 21, 2008, 12:20 PM
Post #23 of 45 (3422 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3348

Re: [Lazlo] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

OK, if your needing to end up on top and not your 1st scenario "before we touch down", then first thing is to secure your buddy to his line(make sure he can't slide down). Jug your self to the top, make your call if you can now. Set up a 2-1 (or whatever your haul system you want) on his line at the top and start hauling him up.


moose_droppings


Sep 21, 2008, 12:30 PM
Post #24 of 45 (3415 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3348

Re: [moose_droppings] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Actually, it depends on the situation. If he's unconscious, you'd be better off to get him down (since its quicker) and get him secured on a ledge some where to prevent HHS. Then go for help. Also hauling him up while he's out like a pig might cause more damage depending on the route, think roofs. Its much better if he can be attended to while he's being hauled.


altelis


Sep 21, 2008, 12:30 PM
Post #25 of 45 (3412 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 2168

Re: [billl7] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Are they simul-rapping or are they rapping two seperate fixed single lines?

makes a HUGE difference.

and i don't see how any of these scenarios work if they are simul rapping AND the knot is on the "wrong" side of the anchor!

or have i missed something?


Lazlo


Sep 21, 2008, 12:40 PM
Post #26 of 45 (1194 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2007
Posts: 5070

Re: [altelis] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

do you mean 2 people rapping off 2 ends of the same rope (ie: counter-weighting eachother)?

and...

What knot?

The scenario we're talking about is just a rappel. Two ropes tied solidly at the anchor. Two rappellers. Two devices. Two descents at the same time on different ropes.


sungam


Sep 21, 2008, 12:44 PM
Post #27 of 45 (1190 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26576

Re: [moose_droppings] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

moose_droppings wrote:
OK, if your needing to end up on top and not your 1st scenario "before we touch down", then first thing is to secure your buddy to his line(make sure he can't slide down). Jug your self to the top, make your call if you can now. Set up a 2-1 (or whatever your haul system you want) on his line at the top and start hauling him up.
We're trying to do something hypothetical. Mad u ruinz it. Tongue


moose_droppings


Sep 21, 2008, 12:46 PM
Post #28 of 45 (1190 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3348

Re: [altelis] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Good point.

If their simul rapping, it be easy enough to fix the 2 ropes above you together via "You also happen to have any and all gear you own".


moose_droppings


Sep 21, 2008, 12:52 PM
Post #29 of 45 (1188 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3348

Re: [sungam] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

sungam wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
OK, if your needing to end up on top and not your 1st scenario "before we touch down", then first thing is to secure your buddy to his line(make sure he can't slide down). Jug your self to the top, make your call if you can now. Set up a 2-1 (or whatever your haul system you want) on his line at the top and start hauling him up.
We're trying to do something hypothetical. Mad u ruinz it. Tongue

Dang hyperpothetical....errr hippopothetical, hypothetical anyway.
Frown


billl7


Sep 21, 2008, 12:58 PM
Post #30 of 45 (1185 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1888

Re: [altelis] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

If we were sumul-rapping on one rope and the rope hangs clear from the anchor, I think it is still doable. Put the 'anchor' point for the 2:1 system on the strand that does not have the victim. But it''s going to take much longer to get to the top.
Edit: Might be better to go to something like moose just mentioned.


(This post was edited by billl7 on Sep 21, 2008, 12:59 PM)


sungam


Sep 21, 2008, 12:58 PM
Post #31 of 45 (1185 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26576

Re: [moose_droppings] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Tongue


Lazlo


Sep 21, 2008, 1:15 PM
Post #32 of 45 (1178 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2007
Posts: 5070

Re: [billl7] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Define simul-rap please? Two people one device?


sungam


Sep 21, 2008, 1:23 PM
Post #33 of 45 (1176 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26576

Re: [Lazlo] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Two people one rope, opposite ends counter-balancing each others.


Lazlo


Sep 21, 2008, 1:26 PM
Post #34 of 45 (1174 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2007
Posts: 5070

Re: [sungam] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

sungam wrote:
Two people one rope, opposite ends counter-balancing each others.

How safe is this? Is this a common and viable option for long multi-pitch raps?

I'm doing a 11 pitch climb in a month with an 11 pitch rap. Ugh.


sungam


Sep 21, 2008, 1:32 PM
Post #35 of 45 (1167 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26576

Re: [Lazlo] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Yeah, if the anchors are bomber, and the climbers are of similar weights. Just make sure you got knots in the ends, or one guy going off with kill the two of you.


Lazlo


Sep 21, 2008, 1:34 PM
Post #36 of 45 (1166 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2007
Posts: 5070

Re: [sungam] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

.....Unimpressed

I'd almost rather rap on one device and deal with the gheyness.


billl7


Sep 21, 2008, 1:36 PM
Post #37 of 45 (1164 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1888

Re: [Lazlo] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Lazlo wrote:
sungam wrote:
Two people one rope, opposite ends counter-balancing each others.

How safe is this? Is this a common and viable option for long multi-pitch raps?

I'm doing a 11 pitch climb in a month with an 11 pitch rap. Ugh.
I don't know about speed savings. I haven't done it that much.

Assuming a good anchor, it can be quite safe: Both folks back up their rappel (e.g., autoblock) since if one person loses control both persons are lost. Also, it might be helpful to link the two persons with a sling so that one person can't get much ahead of the other (e.g., big weight difference).

Without those safety measures it might go faster. But risk of a serious catastrophe is also larger.


altelis


Sep 21, 2008, 2:03 PM
Post #38 of 45 (1140 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 2168

Re: [Lazlo] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

ok, quick and dirty on simul rapping.

you wont' save any time doing two people one device (not like 2 girls one cup....). by the time you figure out how to move together while roped together, AND rig enough friction you might as well just rap separately. sheesh. don't be foolish.

simul rappels tend to be an alpine trick. they work REALLY well down steep snow couloirs but work on any sort of descent. the trick is to make sure you go at simillar speeds and if there is a LARGE weight difference make sure you try and split the gear up to make up for that difference. i would conjecture that many would be surprised what kind of weight difference is possible.

i would think that the speed savings AREN'T worth it on a single rope rappel. You do need to rappel slower than normal to ensure everything goes right, and by the time you rap the SHORT distance of a 1/2 rope length you might as well have just done it normally and not introduced the extra risk (because, YES, it is inherrently more risky)

i use it most often when i'm climbing alpine terrain AND have decided to use double ropes. you save EXTRAORDINARY time by rapping 60 m at a time ONCE per team. you rig the rappel as if you were doing a double rope rappel- ie the rigging is no different. but now you BOTH go at the same time on opposite ropes (but they are still tied together like normal so you can pull them from the bottom).

again, though, this is only worth doing if you have LOTS of rappeling to do (and 11 pitches WOULD qualify IF these are FULL rope length pitches. ie you are required to do 11 raps, not 5 or 6 full length raps---, esp if you can combine raps and do double rope raps) AND the terrain warrants double ropes for climbing.

that being said if i know there is going to be a lot of rapping but the terrain doesn't warrant it-- ie doesn't wander, than i go with a single rope and a skinny static tag line. this lets me go full 60 m raps with only the weight of one lead rope. climbing is MUCH faster with a single rope than doubles, i don't care who you are. rope management, clusterfucks, etc. just don't happen nearly as much with a single. and i (and many others) climb lots of ice, alpine rock and snow with single ropes. ESP with the relatively new advent of super skinny singles. this technique DOES NOT ALLOW SIMUL RAPPING. to simul rap you need cords of almost identical thickness.

if you want the details (which i DID NOT give- these are VERY nuanced techniques. please don't think i gave enough info to try them out yet) do the research on here. these topics have been covered ad nauseum.

so- when you mentioned both people rapping at the same time I assumed you were on two separate ropes. it has been my experience that in the distances of a 1/2 rope rappel (30-35 m's depending on the rope) simul rapping DOES NOT SAVE TIME. and remember, the time saving is where the extra objective risk is balanced. by traveling faster you get out of the danger zone in the mountains where darkness/weather can mean death. and if you are simul rapping with two ropes then there IS A KNOT joining the ropes which WILL prohibit you from rescue if god has happened to not smile upon you and positioned the knot such that it would have to pass through the anchor. 50% chance it will be set up this way. dig?

i would say a new faster rapping technique may be in order for your upcoming trip. that said PRACTICE these (both of the them or only one depending on available gear and what types of ropes you carry) before you leave. again, these techniques (simul rapping and a full rope rope with a lead line/tag line combo) are only useful when they save you LOTS of time. this is the only way they outweigh the added danger. so if they are going to slow you down don't use them. if they aren't WIRED then don't use them. go to your local crag and get them DIALED with your partner. if your crag is only single pitch, set up a mid-way anchor. you can clean your gear next go-around.


wow-----that wasn't quick or dirty. ok, a little dirty (i DID reference 2 girls one cup....)

sorry for the thread drift. feel free to pick up where you left off---that is after you wake back up after falling asleep from reading my drivle!Blush


Lazlo


Sep 21, 2008, 2:09 PM
Post #39 of 45 (1137 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2007
Posts: 5070

Re: [altelis] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Na, I like it. I learned a few things. The difference in rope thickness was a good tip.

The pitches ARE full rope length.


sungam


Sep 21, 2008, 2:10 PM
Post #40 of 45 (1135 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26576

Re: [altelis] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

nice summery :)


Lazlo


Sep 21, 2008, 2:10 PM
Post #41 of 45 (1134 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2007
Posts: 5070

Re: [altelis] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Oh...and do the world a favor. Don't mention the cup thing. *grimace*


sungam


Sep 21, 2008, 2:17 PM
Post #42 of 45 (1127 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26576

Re: [Lazlo] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Lazlo wrote:
Oh...and do the world a favor. Don't mention the cup thing. *grimace*
What, the one with the poop?


Lazlo


Sep 21, 2008, 2:19 PM
Post #43 of 45 (1124 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2007
Posts: 5070

Re: [sungam] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

sungam wrote:
Lazlo wrote:
Oh...and do the world a favor. Don't mention the cup thing. *grimace*
What, the one with the poop?

Ah! Naw! Stoppit!


mtnrock


Oct 7, 2008, 6:10 PM
Post #44 of 45 (1070 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 23, 2008
Posts: 61

Re: [Lazlo] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

i know this is old but your not sposed to haul when some one is unconscious you have to do a rescue


Lazlo


Oct 9, 2008, 8:49 PM
Post #45 of 45 (1058 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2007
Posts: 5070

Re: [mtnrock] Mid rappel haul system [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

...We covered that earlier in the post.


Forums : Climbing Information : The Lab

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook