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j_ung
Oct 20, 2008, 6:38 PM
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j_ung wrote: dingus wrote: Here's my input RC.com does not own the information submitted. It should be just as easy for the OWNER of the info to delete it as it is add it. Any revenues derived from the routes db should be shared amongst the contriibutors. Photos and TRs should NOT be REQUIRED to be linked to a FOR PROFIT website routes database. RC.com should take a Summitpost.com approach to freely submitted information - it is the HOST, not the OWNER of the data and MUST SEEK PERMISSION to do ANYTHING with that data other than what the contributor expressly agreed to upon submission. The work MAY NOT BE SOLD. Period. Anything less than this is theft. DMT These are likewise issues I already have in mind, but unfortunately, I don't have a lot of answers to them yet. As I said, this is a first step in what will be a long strange trip. Regardless, thank you very much for bringing some pretty important issues to light.
I'd like to revisit this if I may.
I thought about this issue all weekend. Dingus, I know what your views are in regard to user-generated content, but respectfully, I think mine are a little different. IMO, such open source content, while benefitting RC.com directly, also benefits users. RC.com gets page views and, hopefully, ad revenue. And in return users get a resource they can depend on and control to some extent. As far as I'm concerned this is only a lopsided arrangement if you value money more than the resource. As a private climber -- not an RC.com employee -- I don't, and I'm pretty certain the majority agrees.
However, I get what your saying about theft. The last thing I want is for anybody to back into a situation in which he or she feels they've been taken advantage of. Regardless of what I do here, I'll make sure it's very clear what that arrangement is before anybody posts info to the RDB. Eventually the same will go for info posted everywhere on RC.com, from articles and gear reviews to the RDB and forum posts.
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j_ung
Oct 20, 2008, 6:38 PM
Post #52 of 123
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And, umm... woo.
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clausti
Oct 20, 2008, 7:01 PM
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oh, also, relating to my earlier post about how hard it is to change the order of routes at an area...
if you DO change the order of the routes, it says user "YOU" submitting this information, appearing to refer to the entire text of the route description.
that seems like a stupid way to reference it, to me personally. a "submitted by" and "last edited by" tags seem like it would be better.
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j_ung
Oct 20, 2008, 7:04 PM
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cracklover wrote: Are you interested in any discussion on the "not all of them" ones? GO
Sure! Here are some of the ideas I didn't add:
1. Partner with Mountainproject. I'm far more interested in honest, vigorous competition. I'm not interested in sending traffic their way, unless it's in the interest of something far greater than the RDB, for example stymingersfink's memorial threads. From a user standpoint, it'd be great to see MP make changes in response, then we do the same, and so and so forth.
2. Subcrags. It's too area specific. I'll leave such organization to area managers.
3. Entries for whippers and falls, rather than hangdog. Sorry, WW, but if you fall and then do anything other than start over, that's exactly what a hangdog is. Granted, there are degrees of hangdog. I leave to individuals to remember whether they one-falled it or pounded it into submission with creative tensioning and multiple stick clipping. 
4. Exporting to an excel file. I don't hate this idea, but maybe later.
5. Open-source topo drawings. I'm not convinced this can work well right now. Maybe at a later time. Besides, if we do that, we get dangerously close to being in the guidebook business.
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cracklover
Oct 20, 2008, 7:27 PM
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Thanks.
GO
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wmfork
Oct 20, 2008, 7:44 PM
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Zerogeist wrote: i should rephrase, it doesn't have the same type/volume of user activity as rc.com, and if it did, it would be 100x more useful then it currently is (which is still in all respects, useful)
I tend to think if mp.com had the same type/volume of user activity as rc.com, it'd be just as useless for actual climbing info. At least over at mp.com, if a noob asks a question, he/she doesn't have to filter 95% crap to get that 5% helpful answer. It's changing though...
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shoo
Oct 20, 2008, 8:03 PM
Post #57 of 123
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Arrogant_Bastard wrote: Some form of Wiki would be awesome
Dear god yes. Please do this.
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saxfiend
Oct 20, 2008, 8:35 PM
Post #58 of 123
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Jay -- I have some ideas from an area admin perspective. Check your rc.com email.
JL
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dave172
Oct 20, 2008, 8:57 PM
Post #59 of 123
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I use rc.com as a personal log of what routes I've climbed and when I climbed them. Therefore, I hate being required to fill in the subject and comment box. Usually I have nothing to say that hasn't already been said. Its a tiny thing I know but a really easy fix I think.
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tradrenn
Oct 21, 2008, 9:28 AM
Post #60 of 123
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Jay
Please have a look at AM forum ( invisible to other users )
I posted some of my ideas there when I was AM.
Whatever you do don't let AB run the Gunks.
V.
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Arrogant_Bastard
Oct 21, 2008, 4:17 PM
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tradrenn wrote: Whatever you do don't let AB run the Gunks.
What??? Come on, we'll let you have Joshua Tree and Hueco Tanks.
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dingus
Oct 22, 2008, 2:36 PM
Post #63 of 123
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j_ung wrote: j_ung wrote: dingus wrote: Here's my input RC.com does not own the information submitted. It should be just as easy for the OWNER of the info to delete it as it is add it. Any revenues derived from the routes db should be shared amongst the contriibutors. Photos and TRs should NOT be REQUIRED to be linked to a FOR PROFIT website routes database. RC.com should take a Summitpost.com approach to freely submitted information - it is the HOST, not the OWNER of the data and MUST SEEK PERMISSION to do ANYTHING with that data other than what the contributor expressly agreed to upon submission. The work MAY NOT BE SOLD. Period. Anything less than this is theft. DMT These are likewise issues I already have in mind, but unfortunately, I don't have a lot of answers to them yet. As I said, this is a first step in what will be a long strange trip. Regardless, thank you very much for bringing some pretty important issues to light. I'd like to revisit this if I may. I thought about this issue all weekend. Dingus, I know what your views are in regard to user-generated content, but respectfully, I think mine are a little different. IMO, such open source content, while benefitting RC.com directly, also benefits users. RC.com gets page views and, hopefully, ad revenue. And in return users get a resource they can depend on and control to some extent. As far as I'm concerned this is only a lopsided arrangement if you value money more than the resource. As a private climber -- not an RC.com employee -- I don't, and I'm pretty certain the majority agrees. However, I get what your saying about theft. The last thing I want is for anybody to back into a situation in which he or she feels they've been taken advantage of. Regardless of what I do here, I'll make sure it's very clear what that arrangement is before anybody posts info to the RDB. Eventually the same will go for info posted everywhere on RC.com, from articles and gear reviews to the RDB and forum posts.
That's a very Borg-like perspective I must say; all for the Collective and what have you.
Its this very entitled perspective that prompted me to withdraw all route submissons from all web-based climbing sites hosting a routes db.
It has very little to do wtih the $ component - I think that is more symbolic than anything else. It comes down to control over one's own material and TRUST.
Its very clear to me that over the long term NO dot com site can be trusted with personal user submitted information. Just because today's boss respects artistic control and copyrights doesn't mean the NEW BOSS will. Same ole same old.
Lastly, in your haste to catalog the known world and document all routes - what will have been aaccomplished aside from killing one of the most vital sparks of climbing - DISCOVERY.
I urge folks to tamp down the ego-boosting urge for self-gratification via routes submission. Turn it on itself and with hold those routes. The climbing area you save is probably you're own.
I would never submit any route info, nor anything else really, to a so-called open forum that then TAKES possession of that material. That's BULLSHIT.
DMT
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iron106
Oct 22, 2008, 3:33 PM
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Neclimbs.com has nice info.
1.A pic
2.Directions
3.Description
4.Gear
5.Descent
6.History
I do like that we can comment on the routes here.
Good luck with a huge project
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Arrogant_Bastard
Oct 22, 2008, 3:53 PM
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dingus wrote: That's a very Borg-like perspective I must say; all for the Collective and what have you. Its this very entitled perspective that prompted me to withdraw all route submissons from all web-based climbing sites hosting a routes db.
Jesus Christ Dingus, get over it. If everyone was like you there's be no internet because nobody would ever want to share anything. Granted, we could use a few less blogs in the world, but I think most people enjoy the free exchange of conversation without worrying about copyrighting it.
How many years now have you whined-poetic about deleting every post you've ever made, yet you continue posting. I'm sure part of the reason they don't want to allow deleting is to prevent vacillators such as your self from entering info in the DB on a manic night and subsequently deleting it a week later when you slip into your depressive side. It's not necessarily that the data isn't provided, it's that it once was, and possibly stymied someone else from filling in a route because you already did - now it's gone leaving a hole.
Move on Dingus. You don't want to fill in routes in the DB, then simply don't. You don't want to post because you feel you don't own the rights to these golden beacons of imformation you post, then don't. I think we'll all survive without yet another Dingus post ranting about lack of ownership of prior posts – that were just ranting about lack of ownership. If I go back far enough to you actually say something interesting in one of your posts?
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dingus
Oct 22, 2008, 4:00 PM
Post #66 of 123
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I'm encourage folks to NOT participate in the routes db, here and elsewhere. I stated the reasons. I'll state them again, at my convenience.
If you can summon an argument that get beyond a personal attack I'll be happy to entertain your discussion. Till then?
DMT
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dingus
Oct 22, 2008, 4:08 PM
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Arrogant_Bastard wrote: If I go back far enough to you actually say something interesting in one of your posts?
No I deleted all those posts. I don't like folks who feign ownership over the content of others. Those who actually create content will unserstand. The consumers can consume something else.
The sense of entitlement here is stunning really.
DMT
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Arrogant_Bastard
Oct 22, 2008, 4:23 PM
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dingus wrote: Arrogant_Bastard wrote: If I go back far enough to you actually say something interesting in one of your posts? No I deleted all those posts. I don't like folks who feign ownership over the content of others. Those who actually create content will unserstand. The consumers can consume something else. The sense of entitlement here is stunning really. DMT
Then why are you still here? You're like the kid who talks about committing suicide.
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dingus
Oct 22, 2008, 4:31 PM
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I'm here to remind folks what its like to be independent.
I know that is not a familiar chord for some but believe it or not that is the CORE of the spirit of climbing.
Group-think does not properly equip the modern climber. It fosters a sense of entitlement.
Well you know what?
You caaaaaaaaaaaaan't have it.
DMT
DMT
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epoch
Moderator
Oct 22, 2008, 4:33 PM
Post #70 of 123
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Arrogant_Bastard wrote: dingus wrote: Arrogant_Bastard wrote: If I go back far enough to you actually say something interesting in one of your posts? No I deleted all those posts. I don't like folks who feign ownership over the content of others. Those who actually create content will unserstand. The consumers can consume something else. The sense of entitlement here is stunning really. DMT Then why are you still here? You're like the kid who talks about committing suicide.
Over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over ...
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dingus
Oct 22, 2008, 4:36 PM
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Oh my... zeke my boy, I just clicked on your profile and the 'routes submitted' tab and this is what I found:
"No Matching Routes."
Now SHUT THE FUCK UP.
And don't start submitting routes you did not your self open. Maybe when YOU start contributing something other than post counts, you know, something of your own that you authored and put some of your soul into, you may come to understand. I won't hold my breath kid.
DMT
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cracklover
Oct 22, 2008, 4:46 PM
Post #72 of 123
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Arrogant_Bastard wrote: dingus wrote: That's a very Borg-like perspective I must say; all for the Collective and what have you. Its this very entitled perspective that prompted me to withdraw all route submissons from all web-based climbing sites hosting a routes db. Jesus Christ Dingus, get over it. If everyone was like you there's be no internet because nobody would ever want to share anything.
That's rich, coming from you.
If everyone was like you, there'd be no climbing content on this site. Your posts are often entertaining, but typically encourage everyone to leap to the lowest common denominator, as quickly as possible. Anti-content, one might say. When's the last time you submitted a trip report? A great photo? Any actual climbing content at all? Only thing I can think of is a few interesting posts in the DMM offset thread.
You certainly do a fine job of representing your moniker, but you must realize that making a joke out of the site does more to reduce its climbing-related content than anything Dingus could write encouraging people to care about what they post.
Cheers,
GO
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Arrogant_Bastard
Oct 22, 2008, 5:22 PM
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cracklover wrote: That's rich, coming from you. If everyone was like you, there'd be no climbing content on this site. Your posts are often entertaining, but typically encourage everyone to leap to the lowest common denominator, as quickly as possible. Anti-content, one might say. When's the last time you submitted a trip report? A great photo? Any actual climbing content at all? Only thing I can think of is a few interesting posts in the DMM offset thread. You certainly do a fine job of representing your moniker, but you must realize that making a joke out of the site does more to reduce its climbing-related content than anything Dingus could write encouraging people to care about what they post. Cheers, GO
I come here for entertainment, and I find it, in spades.
I spent a year or so lurking on this site, and learned a lot. I never felt a need to start threads because I was capable of using a search function and everything I could ever want to know was in the archives. One day, out of boredom, I made an account. I did participate in a fair amount of climbing related discussions early on (under the D_A account), mostly regurgitating what I learned through simple searches of the archives. I would add in a bit of levity because that’s just the type of guy I am, but it still addressed the issue. There was a rating system back then, and I could vote most every day, so I know there were people out there that found my contributions enjoyable. As time went on I found that every climbing related thread was the same thing over and over and over again. I got bored. I moved to community. Yes, my posts can be offensive. But I do believe there are many that see the humor behind it. Yes, I rarely deal with the climbing issues anymore. The bulk majority of my posts are in Community, which is for just that.
As I said, I just don’t see any real climbing issues come up here that interest me anymore. And there really shouldn’t be. Climbing doesn’t advance quick enough that there are new developments weekly. Perhaps someone comes out with a new form of the same old cam. A skinnier sling is made. A shoe with a fancy new logo comes out. Sometimes it is worth talking about, often it’s not (IMO). I remember when I used to find these threads interesting, and more power to those that do, I simply don’t much anymore. When the occasional interesting issue comes up (Equallette, sliding-X, new DMM offsets) I’m usually there with my (mostly) serious face on.
I am an active member on MP.com – I prefer their database and I think their pictures archive is superior to here. Real name, real face, real email – if you’re really interested I’ll send it to you and you can go judge my contribution. I’ve entered hundreds of routes, areas, pictures and comments. I probably would have many many more, but my main climbing areas – Joshua Tree and Tahquitz – are fairly well covered in their database. I try not to add to places I’ve just visited because I believe locals can contribute better routes than someone who only has a vague understanding of the area’s climbing style, ethic, and relative-ness. Occasionally I get involved in a forum discussion, but again, there just aren’t many topics that interest me. It’s all been discussed.
(This post was edited by Arrogant_Bastard on Oct 22, 2008, 5:25 PM)
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sungam
Oct 22, 2008, 5:54 PM
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I dig your idea of adventure and discovery, Dingus, but you gotta remember not everyone is in it for that. Some people just like the athleticism or a smaller amount of adventure.
Also remember that not everyone has access to information on locations of spots (ie. noobs who don't know anyone to get word of mouth from).
I would never have heard of the Etive Slabs (where I climbed my favourite rock route to date) if it weren't for some old photo on this site of a dude climbing there, with an explaination of where it is.
In addition to the adventure, we need inspiration to go to these places, and what makes you want to climb somewhere more then seeing a sexy picture of it, and knowing how to get there?
Now... move by move topos can sux mah ballz- there's no need for that on nice adventurous trad lines.
I think that directions and information on crags is a good thing, it lets people know what they can go and climb on in their area, or where they can climb when visiting relatives or whatever.
However, sometimes this site's users go too far, Sty once showed me a post where a guy added a route to an indoor gym, and then gave a description about making the clips- and he was serious! wtf?
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