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Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174)
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Poll: Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174)
Spot on, aid is complete BS 10 / 17%
I'd like to stab the author through the jaw with a sky hook 10 / 17%
I don't see what all the arguing is about 10 / 17%
I'm going to get some popcorn, this is gonna be good 28 / 48%
58 total votes
 

jh_angel


Dec 3, 2008, 9:58 PM
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Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174)
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Discuss... or flame... maybe a little of both?


majid_sabet


Dec 3, 2008, 10:03 PM
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Re: [jh_angel] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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Tongue


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Dec 4, 2008, 7:56 PM)


pmyche


Dec 4, 2008, 6:42 AM
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dingus


Dec 4, 2008, 6:52 AM
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Re: [pmyche] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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It said aid climbers are lame. It says a5 is bogus. It claims the 'death fall' mystique is manufactured danger. The author retrobolted an A5 route, so I guess he's a little sensitive about the subject.

Klaus think's he a pussy.

DMT


scottb


Dec 4, 2008, 7:14 AM
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Re: [pmyche] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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pmyche wrote:
What did it say?
It was the "Aid Rant" guy saying what the Aid Rant guy says.


camhead


Dec 4, 2008, 7:17 AM
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Re: [scottb] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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Chris Kalous?


jh_angel


Dec 4, 2008, 7:40 AM
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Re: [scottb] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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scottb wrote:
pmyche wrote:
What did it say?
It was the "Aid Rant" guy saying what the Aid Rant guy says.

It was the aid rant guy, but in a more structured, coherent and not drunk (or at least less) way.


Gmburns2000


Dec 4, 2008, 8:21 AM
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Re: [jh_angel] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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Didn't read the article, but based on the comments from above then I'll throw my neck out there and say that I don't know what the big deal is. It's a style, and whatever one person wants to do is what that one person wants to do. I don't see why I should care if that person likes or dislikes aid. It doesn't affect me, and I'm not so sure it should affect others either.


MikeSaint


Dec 4, 2008, 9:59 AM
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Not Aid Itself... [In reply to]
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I interpreted and make note of, Chris Kalous having an issue with the current system for categorizing aid climbs. Not to be confused with the act of aiding itself. Correct me if I'm wrong though.




Note: I have never done a bit of aid in my life. Anyone in the South East need an apprentice?


(This post was edited by MikeSaint on Dec 4, 2008, 10:01 AM)


dingus


Dec 4, 2008, 10:00 AM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
Didn't read the article, but based on the comments from above then I'll throw my neck out there and say that I don't know what the big deal is. It's a style, and whatever one person wants to do is what that one person wants to do. I don't see why I should care if that person likes or dislikes aid. It doesn't affect me, and I'm not so sure it should affect others either.

The dude retrobolted someone else's route, enroute to dissing A5. No I don't think this will affect 99.99% of us in the least. But there is a .01% that really takes that shit seriously.

DMT


dingus


Dec 4, 2008, 10:02 AM
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MikeSaint wrote:
I interpreted and make note of, Chris Kalous having an issue with the current system for categorizing aid climbsnot the act of aiding itself.

No he has an issue with the Valley Gods and the status quo. This is a social issue alone and goes back to the Robbins/Valley Christian Harding/Downward Bound wars.

DMT


Gmburns2000


Dec 4, 2008, 10:57 AM
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Re: [dingus] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
Didn't read the article, but based on the comments from above then I'll throw my neck out there and say that I don't know what the big deal is. It's a style, and whatever one person wants to do is what that one person wants to do. I don't see why I should care if that person likes or dislikes aid. It doesn't affect me, and I'm not so sure it should affect others either.

The dude retrobolted someone else's route, enroute to dissing A5. No I don't think this will affect 99.99% of us in the least. But there is a .01% that really takes that shit seriously.

DMT

Well, my personal philosophy is that people should be able to do what they need to do. He retro-bolted it and dissed the original style. I'm OK with that. What I'm not OK with is him doing that and taking the response personally. In other words, if you're going to do something then expect the consequences. If he can't stand the heat then he shouldn't have stuck his neck out. To further my point, while it doesn't necessarily bother me that he did this, I feel it entirely appropriate for folks to flame him, too, if they don't agree with his actions.


rocks_good_hippies_bad


Dec 4, 2008, 11:31 AM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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Haha. Try to follow my logic:

If there's no such thing as the A5 death fall...but he needed to retrobolt it...then...why? Two reasons:

1. Because there IS such thing as the A5 death fall
OR
2. Because he's too much of a euro-trash bolt-clipping nancy to take the big (and not so deadly) whip!

I say grab the hooks and duct tape not the bosch and bolts.


Gmburns2000


Dec 4, 2008, 12:51 PM
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Re: [rocks_good_hippies_bad] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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rocks_good_hippies_bad wrote:
Haha. Try to follow my logic:

If there's no such thing as the A5 death fall...but he needed to retrobolt it...then...why? Two reasons:

1. Because there IS such thing as the A5 death fall
OR
2. Because he's too much of a euro-trash bolt-clipping nancy to take the big (and not so deadly) whip!

I say grab the hooks and duct tape not the bosch and bolts.

I don't disagree with that.


degaine


Dec 4, 2008, 4:46 PM
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Re: [rocks_good_hippies_bad] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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rocks_good_hippies_bad wrote:
2. Because he's too much of a euro-trash bolt-clipping nancy to take the big (and not so deadly) whip!

I find this statement ironic (and ignorant) considering that some of the boldest, most visionary climbers in the Valley today hail from Europe (Germany, Belgium, GB for example).


jh_angel


Dec 4, 2008, 6:12 PM
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Re: [rocks_good_hippies_bad] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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rocks_good_hippies_bad wrote:
Haha. Try to follow my logic:

If there's no such thing as the A5 death fall...but he needed to retrobolt it...then...why? Two reasons:

1. Because there IS such thing as the A5 death fall
OR
2. Because he's too much of a euro-trash bolt-clipping nancy to take the big (and not so deadly) whip!

I say grab the hooks and duct tape not the bosch and bolts.

He put bolts where there were previously rivets, which also require drilling. Thus making an aid route free-able, which most would agree is a better style. That was one of his points; If you are going to drill, do it right the first time and put in a bolt which can be used by aid and free climbers alike.


krosbakken


Dec 4, 2008, 6:18 PM
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Re: [pmyche] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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pmyche wrote:
What did it say?


http://www.rockclimbing.com/...os/Detailed/780.html


I have this video on here from youtube. There it is.^^^^^^^



edit:clicky


(This post was edited by krosbakken on Dec 4, 2008, 8:24 PM)


krosbakken


Dec 4, 2008, 6:32 PM
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Re: [jh_angel] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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About the rant of his and aid climbing.


I don't aid climb but when I see Ammon McNeeley, Ivo Ninov, or Chris Mcnamara aid climbing. Im pretty impressed, those guys have got balls. The shit ammon does is some insane shit. Have you seen First Ascent? well there is a clip on mcneeley and its some bold stuff.

And I agree with people above that have said this: Its just a style of climbing, its just like another style.


just my two cents.


Valarc


Dec 4, 2008, 7:07 PM
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Re: [krosbakken] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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As a complete outsider to the concept, the Aid climbing thing has always confused the shit out of me. There seem to be so many contradictions, so much double talk and double standards, so much "respect" for history that usually ends up with these ridiculously convoluted rule sets... it just seems so, pointless.

Here's an example. And again, this is coming from someone who the old-timers would call "ignorant". I've never aid climbed, barely have any real climbing in my extremely short "career", and am speaking solely from my own logical reasoning as an admitted outsider with no first-hand knowledge.

My example involves retro-bolting. And let's get this out of the way - I don't believe in grid bolting, and I believe retro bolting is a complete dick move (most of the time!). However, I always hear the same argument being sprayed about retro-bolting, and this is the thing that reeks of double standards to me.

That argument goes something like this: "if you can't do the line as it was originally climbed, you have no right to bring the climb down to your level"

Yet, these same "old timers" or "respectful" climbers seem to have no problem with bolt ladders in blank sections, or of drilling hook holes. To me, drilling a hook hole is bringing the mountain down to your level just as much as placing a bolt, perhaps even more. The sport climber clipping bolts might be bringing the protection down to his level, but the aid climber drilling hook holes is bringing the actual climbing down to his level. At least the "euro trash sport weenie" is climbing the features that the rock gave him, while the aid purist is creating new features to climb on.

It all seems so convoluted and stupid, in my humble opinion.


PosiDave


Dec 4, 2008, 7:39 PM
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F*** Rockclimbing. It's like a bunch of high school kids stuck in their cliches and pissing and moaning about how they are better than the next. We should all quit and take up curling I bet there are less things to hate people for.


Lazlo


Dec 4, 2008, 7:45 PM
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Re: [jh_angel] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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jh_angel wrote:
rocks_good_hippies_bad wrote:
Haha. Try to follow my logic:

If there's no such thing as the A5 death fall...but he needed to retrobolt it...then...why? Two reasons:

1. Because there IS such thing as the A5 death fall
OR
2. Because he's too much of a euro-trash bolt-clipping nancy to take the big (and not so deadly) whip!

I say grab the hooks and duct tape not the bosch and bolts.

He put bolts where there were previously rivets, which also require drilling. Thus making an aid route free-able, which most would agree is a better style. That was one of his points; If you are going to drill, do it right the first time and put in a bolt which can be used by aid and free climbers alike.

As I understand it; a rivet will not hold a fall...so if he placed bolts where there were rivets; then he has ruined this A5, right? I think that's wrong. That's like chipping holds to me.


MikeSaint


Dec 4, 2008, 7:55 PM
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Re: [PosiDave] [Valarc] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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PosiDave wrote:
F*** Rockclimbing. It's like a bunch of high school kids stuck in their cliches and pissing and moaning about how they are better than the next. We should all quit and take up curling I bet there are less things to hate people for.

Welcome to rockclimbing.com Friend!


jh_angel


Dec 4, 2008, 8:07 PM
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Re: [Lazlo] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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So you think once a climb is done on aid it should stay that way forever and never be freed? For example: keeping something as A5 is better than having it be, for instance, 5.13 with the option of doing it as an A1?

Many aid routes have been freed over the years, and sometimes that requires putting in bolts. Sometimes in place of other drilled pro, sometimes not. So the main question to think over is: If an A5 can be freed, but it needs bolts, should it be bolted and freed or not? (Keep in mind many A5s have "enhanced" features that make them aid-able, they are not all natural)


Lazlo


Dec 4, 2008, 8:18 PM
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jh_angel wrote:
So you think once a climb is done on aid it should stay that way forever and never be freed? For example: keeping something as A5 is better than having it be, for instance, 5.13 with the option of doing it as an A1?

Many aid routes have been freed over the years, and sometimes that requires putting in bolts. Sometimes in place of other drilled pro, sometimes not. So the main question to think over is: If an A5 can be freed, but it needs bolts, should it be bolted and freed or not? (Keep in mind many A5s have "enhanced" features that make them aid-able, they are not all natural)

I'll just simply say; that if I put up a route of my own; and someone lowered it's grade (whether it's aid, free, ect.) I would be very unhappy. It certainly would not be the same route any longer.

Whoo Hoo for the sport climbers...boohoo for the aid climbers.

Lets remove some RAWLS on a sport route and start hooking the sleeves!


krosbakken


Dec 4, 2008, 8:19 PM
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jh_angel wrote:
So you think once a climb is done on aid it should stay that way forever and never be freed? For example: keeping something as A5 is better than having it be, for instance, 5.13 with the option of doing it as an A1?

Many aid routes have been freed over the years, and sometimes that requires putting in bolts. Sometimes in place of other drilled pro, sometimes not. So the main question to think over is: If an A5 can be freed, but it needs bolts, should it be bolted and freed or not? (Keep in mind many A5s have "enhanced" features that make them aid-able, they are not all natural)



I agree with this. Yes a climb may have to be aided at first but if it can be free climbed then make it free able. ( if that made any sense at all ).


Theres a video clip of tommy caldwell and beth rodden in the grand canyon wanting to free an aid climb but first chris mcnamara aided up there and made sure that all the pro was there and it was possible, and I think that is where aid climbing is great to have. With aid climbing your able to explore further, and then later free climb it (if possible, and aiding up it will help determine if it is possible or not).


just my 2 cents.


Lazlo


Dec 4, 2008, 8:20 PM
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In the simplest sense: lets respect first ascentionists.


Lazlo


Dec 4, 2008, 8:26 PM
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krosbakken wrote:
jh_angel wrote:
So you think once a climb is done on aid it should stay that way forever and never be freed? For example: keeping something as A5 is better than having it be, for instance, 5.13 with the option of doing it as an A1?

Many aid routes have been freed over the years, and sometimes that requires putting in bolts. Sometimes in place of other drilled pro, sometimes not. So the main question to think over is: If an A5 can be freed, but it needs bolts, should it be bolted and freed or not? (Keep in mind many A5s have "enhanced" features that make them aid-able, they are not all natural)



I agree with this. Yes a climb may have to be aided at first but if it can be free climbed then make it free able. ( if that made any sense at all ).


Theres a video clip of tommy caldwell and beth rodden in the grand canyon wanting to free an aid climb but first chris mcnamara aided up there and made sure that all the pro was there and it was possible, and I think that is where aid climbing is great to have. With aid climbing your able to explore further, and then later free climb it (if possible, and aiding up it will help determine if it is possible or not).


just my 2 cents.


Bolt-hole cams exist...lets pull all the bolts and send sport routes with trad gear.

Lets bolt aid routes.

Lets make the Eiger Via Ferrata.

Lets bolt cracks.


(This post was edited by Lazlo on Dec 4, 2008, 8:55 PM)


krosbakken


Dec 4, 2008, 8:27 PM
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Lazlo wrote:


Bolt-hole cams exist...lets pull all the bolts and send sport routes with trad gear.



I don't know, that sounds to me like a lot of work.


thabadcharacter


Dec 4, 2008, 8:30 PM
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why have i read this far? hasn't this been discussed to death? rock climbing is stupid.


dingus


Dec 4, 2008, 8:48 PM
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My friends!!!!111111

I shall tell you the answer.

Ready?

It Depends.

Seriously?????

It depends on the route. It depends on the context. Hell in bad weather survival may be at stake. It depends on the FA. It depends on the local ethics or span of ethics. It may just depend on what gear happens to be along.

Some routes are prime for freeing. Others for clean aid and trade. Still others though, it seems to me, remain testpieces?

And not even that really - to me the real business of aid, hard or otherwise, is on a first ascent (or heading up some line in the park without knowledge), takes on a new context yet again.

SO some routes ya leave alone. Others...?

It depends.

DMT


potreroed


Dec 4, 2008, 8:50 PM
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A via ferrata on the Eiger would be cool as hell. Just don't have it interfere with any established routes.


Lazlo


Dec 4, 2008, 8:53 PM
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potreroed wrote:
A via ferrata on the Eiger would be cool as hell. Just don't have it interfere with any established routes.

Touche. I guess I'd have fun on it.


Guran


Dec 5, 2008, 3:39 AM
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potreroed wrote:
A via ferrata on the Eiger would be cool as hell. Just don't have it interfere with any established routes.

There is one allready.

(No not all the way to the summit, of course)


moof


Dec 5, 2008, 8:30 AM
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One more reason I don't waste my money or time on Rap and Chisel.

Go climb something...


Lazlo


Dec 7, 2008, 9:08 PM
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I'd like to keep arguing about this, if you guys wouldn't mind...


Lazlo


Dec 7, 2008, 9:08 PM
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Re: [Lazlo] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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Please?


ncclimber


Dec 10, 2008, 5:25 PM
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Re: [Lazlo] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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I also have not read the article, But as an aid climber and a first ascentionist I would be pissed if someone added to a route I had put up without discussing it with me. Was this discussed with the person that put up the route or are they still available.
Be considerate of the FA party not all aid lines need to be freed.


hafilax


Dec 10, 2008, 6:10 PM
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Re: [Valarc] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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Valarc, altering the rock is always frowned upon. Just because it's aid doesn't make it OK. I'm not really sure where you got the idea that you can drill bat hooks and put in bolt ladders wherever you want. There are times when safety and survival come first and you do whatever you can to get out of that situation...

As far as I know, nobody has fallen on an aid climb and ripped all their gear plus the anchor. You can't prove something is A5 until that happens. It's all A4+ until you die. A5 would be the ultimate mistake.

The A grades don't really take into account the difficulty of the climb. You could have hooks for your anchor and hook features to the next anchor and the pitch would be A5 but it could be the easiest climbing imaginable.

Rating a climb based on how scared you were is pretty silly IMO.

So someone hops on your route and pulls the shitty rivet you placed. Are they obliged to put an equally shitty rivet next to it so that everyone else can 'enjoy' the route as the first ascensionist intended it? They might not have a rivet, might not be able to bat hook, might not be able to back off and might only have bolts to get by that spot. Are they obliged to step up to the route even though the first ascensionist didn't?

It


dj69


Dec 10, 2008, 6:14 PM
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Re: [Lazlo] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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Lazlo wrote:
jh_angel wrote:
rocks_good_hippies_bad wrote:
Haha. Try to follow my logic:

If there's no such thing as the A5 death fall...but he needed to retrobolt it...then...why? Two reasons:

1. Because there IS such thing as the A5 death fall
OR
2. Because he's too much of a euro-trash bolt-clipping nancy to take the big (and not so deadly) whip!

I say grab the hooks and duct tape not the bosch and bolts.

He put bolts where there were previously rivets, which also require drilling. Thus making an aid route free-able, which most would agree is a better style. That was one of his points; If you are going to drill, do it right the first time and put in a bolt which can be used by aid and free climbers alike.

As I understand it; a rivet will not hold a fall...so if he placed bolts where there were rivets; then he has ruined this A5, right? I think that's wrong. That's like chipping holds to me.

How about the hundreds of drilled hook placements, isn't that chipping, or the cracks that are full of pin scars. Don't these lower the grade of the free climb.


Valarc


Dec 10, 2008, 6:22 PM
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hafilax wrote:
Valarc, altering the rock is always frowned upon. Just because it's aid doesn't make it OK. I'm not really sure where you got the idea that you can drill bat hooks and put in bolt ladders wherever you want.

I got that idea from reading the ramblings of self-professed old school climbers. I see people ranting and raving constantly about the ethics violations of the upstart new climbers, but rarely see anyone but noobs like me questioning drilling hook holes or bolt ladders.

If it's really a question of simply surviving, and not stroking one's ego, wouldn't it make more sense to drill a rap anchor and bail off the climb, rather than a bolt ladder?


jeremy11


Dec 10, 2008, 6:32 PM
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Just read the article, and saw the video clip.
I am an aid climber, with some single pitch A2 nailing FA's

He's right on a lot of things - aid is easier than it looks, once you get your systems figured out. Unlike free climbing, anyone with the mind and will can learn it.

I agree aid standards should progress, the scale should be opened, and ratings should be based on difficulty as well as danger - for example, given a full pitch of textbook # 0 RP's (micronuts) in great constrictions, in great rock, mixed in with a few easy hook moves - would that be C5? Sure, every piece only holds 2 kN, but who would really fall on a string of easy micronut placements?

Compared to other aspects of adventure, aid is safe, for example - jumping off cliffs skiing or biking, free soloing near your limit, skiing solo to the North Pole,
Driving down the highway!
Many things in life are more dangerous than aid, it just feels dangerous sometimes.

Actually, when aiding a route I prefer to stay in the aiders rather than switch to free climbing for sections, unless necessary.

HOWEVER, what about hangdogging up a sport route? If that isn't aid, I don't know what is. So if you're a hangdogin' sport climber on a high horse about being superior to aid climbing, remember that the route is drilled and entirely safe, and that the are all covered in chalk.

Also, the progression of anything is left to the elite. I'll never win the Tour de France, or win the Hardrock 100 or get the speed record on the Nose or the Reticent Wall, but I sure have a lot of fun biking, running, and climbing.
For the rest of us in the middle, we just get out there and enjoy Creation however we want, without damaging the rock unnecessarily.

I would love to see aid difficulty get pushed, perhaps even cutting edge routes were multiple falls are taken in order to figure out the move.
The current danger based ratings lead to noone taking falls on hard routes, but if such pitches were protected only enough to make a fall reasonable (not getting hurt) even if it means adding bolts, then that could be good.
Where would free climbing be if noone ever fell?

Maybe aid ratings should go with A0-A5 for danger and come up with a new scale for placement and movement difficulty (a straight up pitch is much easier than a wandering pitch were many placements are partially blind)


hafilax


Dec 10, 2008, 6:58 PM
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Valarc wrote:
hafilax wrote:
Valarc, altering the rock is always frowned upon. Just because it's aid doesn't make it OK. I'm not really sure where you got the idea that you can drill bat hooks and put in bolt ladders wherever you want.

I got that idea from reading the ramblings of self-professed old school climbers. I see people ranting and raving constantly about the ethics violations of the upstart new climbers, but rarely see anyone but noobs like me questioning drilling hook holes or bolt ladders.

If it's really a question of simply surviving, and not stroking one's ego, wouldn't it make more sense to drill a rap anchor and bail off the climb, rather than a bolt ladder?
As Mark Twight says, sometimes you have to fall upwards. There are climbs where the safest retreat is up.

There was a time when getting to the top was all that mattered. There was no style. That changed. I don't know when but one of the most famous articles from that period was Reinhold Messner's The murder of the impossible in 1971. He accuses climbers of "...carrying their courage in their rucksacks..." whenever they place a bolt when they are scared. Clean climbing has been the goal for a long time now, aid or free.


dingus


Dec 11, 2008, 6:20 AM
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Re: [Valarc] Aid climbing article in newest Rock & Ice (Issue 174) [In reply to]
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Valarc wrote:
I got that idea from reading the ramblings of self-professed old school climbers. I see people ranting and raving constantly about the ethics violations of the upstart new climbers, but rarely see anyone but noobs like me questioning drilling hook holes or bolt ladders.

Maybe noobs like you should just head on up there and find out what the deal really is all about?

Seriously.

In reply to:
If it's really a question of simply surviving, and not stroking one's ego, wouldn't it make more sense to drill a rap anchor and bail off the climb, rather than a bolt ladder?

The trouble we run into is trying to apply our own limited experiences to a larger world. Bailing from 20 pitches up an overhanging and poorly equipped new route is sometimes not even an option.

Many of the criticisms in that vid are likely valid. Perhaps most of them. And yet, despite the assurance of the author to the contrary? Most of us... the vast majority, the super-majority if you will - WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO CLIMB ONE OF THESE ROUTES drilled hook placements or no.

Its a different game of unending anxiety. Despite assurances of safety and all that shit? A big wall climber is in the legendary 'death zone' from the first pitch to the last. Often taking days instead of minutes or hours - the anxiety of the commitment is an animal all to itself. I've felt similar feelings when tackling (for me) big mountain projects, but even there its very different.

All I'm saying is this - be cautious about applying non-wall climbing judgements and thresholds until you've at least tried a wall yourself.

Cheers
DMT


ja1484


Dec 11, 2008, 6:40 AM
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People read climbing magazines? Why bother with that drivel?


Valarc


Dec 11, 2008, 7:39 AM
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dingus wrote:
Maybe noobs like you should just head on up there and find out what the deal really is all about?
...
All I'm saying is this - be cautious about applying non-wall climbing judgements and thresholds until you've at least tried a wall yourself.

This certainly makes sense to me - you're in a different environment, and when you've been up there for days, and you're in a world of hurt, I could see how "clean climbing" takes a backseat to "clean shorts" because you're about to shit yourself.

I just find it frustrating that there are different standards depending on how scared you are. If it's OK to fuck up the rock, it should be just as OK for a sport weenie as it is for a big wall'er. I understand the circumstances are different, and the level of commitment is different, but the rock doesn't care if you're in the "death zone" or not.

It would be one thing if the big wall community didn't also often seem to be the loudest community when it comes to telling everyone else what is and isn't proper ethics. I just don't like the attitude of "do as I say, not as as I do, unless you're so scared you're about to shit yourself". Or alternatively, the more ego-oriented "I'm a bigger man than you, because I climb scarier shit, and therefore its OK for me to destroy the rock if I feel its necessary, as long as I do it in a way that might kill someone."

I have no problem with drilling hook holes, and hammering pins doesn't really bother me. But neither does rap bolting, hangdogging, or pinkpointing. I guess what I'm saying is, if certain segments of the community wouldn't be so damn judgmental of the way others do things, I wouldn't be nearly as bothered by the whole discussion.


dingus


Dec 11, 2008, 7:57 AM
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Valarc wrote:
I just find it frustrating that there are different standards depending on how scared you are.

You want equivalence where none exists.

I would suggest this valarc my friend... don't lament the inconsistencies in the mad world of climbing. CELEBRATE THEM!

Consistency in climbing equates to a vanilla world. Given the least common denominator tendenancy, a consistent climbing world will be dull and predictable.

Climbing is an idiotic thing to do, on balance. It makes no sense. Yet we do it.

So don't start expecting to find consistent logic. This crap doesn't make sense BECAUSE it doesn't make sense - how could it????

In reply to:
If it's OK to fuck up the rock, it should be just as OK for a sport weenie as it is for a big wall'er.

OK, I see from whence you come - a society of rules and norms and shit. You want to fit in and the best way to do that is sto study and adhere to the rule book. I get that.

Well there ain't no rule book in climbing. There is YOU and there is everyone else. You have to find your own accomodation between the personal and the group and understand others will not agree.

I rebel against group-think in this sport. Group think suggests there is one correct way to belay, one correct way to climb a wall, blah blah blah.

In reply to:
I understand the circumstances are different, and the level of commitment is different, but the rock doesn't care if you're in the "death zone" or not.

Indeed the rock doesn't care if you do THIS to it:


Its a rock, dude. It has no feelings. It is not hallowed. It is not subject to worship. We humans bulldoze it, drill it, carve it, crush it, make things with it, toss it - well you get the drift. Its a rock. It has no intrinsic human qualities at all - NONE.

The only 'value' a rock has is that which we assign to it. And clearly not all humans assign the same value to a given rock.

In reply to:
It would be one thing if the big wall community didn't also often seem to be the loudest community when it comes to telling everyone else what is and isn't proper ethics.

There you go with the group think again. Forget about that shit dude, it is a misplaced emotion. Instead... I suggest you focus on YOU and in this case the commentator about big walling, and maybe the guy who did the FA of the route what got retroed - Eric Kohl. Forget about all that other tripe - its meaningless.

In reply to:
I just don't like the attitude of "do as I say, not as as I do,

So fucking what????

In reply to:
unless you're so scared you're about to shit yourself".

Ever grabbed a draw to prevent a fall?

In reply to:
Or alternatively, the more ego-oriented "I'm a bigger man than you, because I climb scarier shit, and therefore its OK for me to destroy the rock if I feel its necessary, as long as I do it in a way that might kill someone."

If the 'rock destruction' involved in hard aid is so concerning to you bro, feel free to skip those fixed bolts next time you climb bro.

In reply to:
I have no problem with drilling hook holes, and hammering pins doesn't really bother me. But neither does rap bolting, hangdogging, or pinkpointing.

Please consider: ALL (not one but ALL) of the aid climbers I know personally? Do ALL THOSE THINGS you just mentioned, me included. We don't seem to suffer this need for consistency and a vanilla world where all rules are the same and everyone plays the same fucking game.

In reply to:
I guess what I'm saying is, if certain segments of the community wouldn't be so damn judgmental

I find this statement the height of irony! I would caution you to beware - as noobs traverse the skills to journeyhood some of them develop a certain sense of entitlement and a very definite resentment toward those who preceeded them.

In reply to:
of the way others do things, I wouldn't be nearly as bothered by the whole discussion.

You think about what I said my friend. Go have a couple of beers and laugh it up with some close climber friends. Talk to them - you'll see yer old Uncle Dingus has it right.

DMT


(This post was edited by dingus on Dec 11, 2008, 8:00 AM)


dingus


Dec 11, 2008, 8:32 AM
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Valarc, if you truly want to get a glimpse of the solidarity of the big wall 'community' wade through this thread. Its monumentally long - but it holds a wealth of attitudes and views on the past and current norms and deviations of the Yosemite bog wall world.

You will quickly note - there is no solidarity and this so-called community is rather a very loose association of individualists, none of whom appreciate being told what to do.

http://www.supertopo.com/...html?topic_id=566859

This thread, coupled with the rather stunning pitonron thread here on rc.com, constitute imo the best big wall threads ever, on the internet.

At least that I've seen.

Both of these threads illustrate in spades the basic principles of western individualism. My climbing mentor Stu summed it up best:

"I basically don't like being told what to do, by anyone."

Salude Stu!

DMT


Valarc


Dec 11, 2008, 8:43 AM
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I have read some of that thread in the past, and I found it absolutely fascinating, to say the least. I guess it's been my experience that the "rap bolting is evil, sport climbers suck, now let me go drill this ladder" voice has been the one that has been loudest in my ears. Obviously there are more shades of gray than that, and I guess I'm expressing my frustration about those vocal few as a backlash against all aid climbers or old-school climbers or whatever, which is admittedly silly.

Then again, as you said above, this whole discussion is kind of silly - shit this whole climbing rocks thing is kind of silly, so I guess I'm in good company.


Valarc


Dec 11, 2008, 8:53 AM
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dingus wrote:
You will quickly note - there is no solidarity and this so-called community is rather a very loose association of individualists, none of whom appreciate being told what to do.

But so many of them seem to love telling everyone else what to do. That's the part that grinds my gears.


refugee


Dec 11, 2008, 8:54 AM
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It's a gross exaggeration to say "kalous retro-bolted an A5"

He placed one bolt at an anchor. AT AN ANCHOR.

Why should the first ascentionist have the safety and protection of their freshly drilled bolts, but if you replace a bolt that years later isn't good anymore, you are somehow a pussy ...?

What about tommy caldwell, alex huber, and many others who have retro-bolted aid climbs to protect free-climbing variations? Are they pussies too? I'd love to see anyone who thinks so say that to Alex's face.

Anyone who doesn't agree with Kalous' rant is probably old, fat and can't free climb very well and therefore enjoys this contrived activity that provides a way for out-of-shape losers to place themselves above other climbers. Kalous has led TONS of A5 pitches ... How many A5's have people on this forum done?

The reason the "big wall community" has such a strong presence online is because they're all old out-of-shape and out-of-touch climbers who don't climb anymore and just sit at home and spray their out-dated ethics and try to convince the new climbers who come online of their archaic system that still places them and what they do above anything else happening today.

It's such a farce. Warren Harding would have a field day with this ...


dingus


Dec 11, 2008, 9:02 AM
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Valarc wrote:
dingus wrote:
You will quickly note - there is no solidarity and this so-called community is rather a very loose association of individualists, none of whom appreciate being told what to do.

But so many of them seem to love telling everyone else what to do. That's the part that grinds my gears.

I've been climbing some 35 years and 20 of that in and around Yosemite.

I've never been told how to climb by any of these blokes, not once.

Too often, when we climbers attempt to describe our own personal mores and rules? We define it in such a way as it sounds like we are criticizing other climbers in the process.

Others take that as a personal indictment of their own personal rules and mores.

Valarc, one thing rings loud and clear in your posts on this topic - you don't like being told what to do either.

I think you must be a climber!

I celebrate the uncompromising hard asses like Kohl. I think our climbing world would be poorer without his like, without him.

I truly mean that. I think our sport would be less without Maestri and the Compressor Route, and Cooke and his fake ascent of McKinley.

Think back on the history of it all and I think you may agree - this sport was invented and defined by individuals, often making it up as they went. Often they began their careers by dispensing with the rule book the previous generations handed them.

And we celebrate their stories and their legends in the grand halls of climbing (fireside chats in the trees by a campsite!). We buy their books and laugh at the ridiculousness of it all.

We don't celebrate climbing groups by and large. Or didn't. I can't speak for the current crop obviously. Things may be a-changing again.

But in my experience it is that very individualism that makes this sport so, um, unique. To me anyway.

But at the start of the day? Ya puts yer shoes on and ya chalks yer hands, you touch fingers to stone and suddenly.... YOU'RE CLIMBING.

And all this shit fades to white noise, eh?

Cheers dude
DMT


dingus


Dec 11, 2008, 9:03 AM
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refugee wrote:
It's a gross exaggeration to say "kalous retro-bolted an A5"

Yes of course. The gander got goosed with his own medicine. As he fully expected to?

And yes, he retro'd a Klaus route. That isn't a crime, but it IS a fact.

DMT


dingus


Dec 11, 2008, 9:09 AM
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refugee wrote:
What about tommy caldwell, alex huber, and many others who have retro-bolted aid climbs to protect free-climbing variations? Are they pussies too? I'd love to see anyone who thinks so say that to Alex's face.

Ah the ole 'my dog is bigger'n your dog.'

My hero is more pure than yours.

My dad can whip your dad.

Well played. Carry on.

DMT


refugee


Dec 11, 2008, 9:18 AM
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That's your response?


dingus


Dec 11, 2008, 9:22 AM
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Yes. You paraphrased the original troll video and troll article. You trolled with nothing new and zero originality. You trolled a childish challenge lacking any substance whatsoever. You got the troll response you earned.

You're welcome.

DMT


Partner robdotcalm


Dec 11, 2008, 9:23 AM
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refugee wrote:
The reason the "big wall community" has such a strong presence online is because they're all old out-of-shape and out-of-touch climbers who don't climb anymore and just sit at home and spray their out-dated ethics and try to convince the new climbers who come online of their archaic system that still places them and what they do above anything else happening today.

It's such a farce. Warren Harding would have a field day with this ...

I agree with you. Because of my gray hair, people often ask me if I aid climb. I take that as an insult. I tell them I'm too young to bother with aid climbing. When I get really old and can't pull anymore, then I'll try it even thought it doesn't seem like much fun.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

(This post was edited by robdotcalm on Dec 11, 2008, 10:16 AM)


mince


Dec 11, 2008, 9:26 AM
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I agree in some ways that aid climbing is outdated and free climbing is a much more modern and better alternative. However unless you are consistently free climbing hard 5.12 and 5.13 pitches then doing a wall all free is going to be quite challenging. So to dismiss aid altogether would be simply foolish and limiting to your big wall choices.
Also as far as "all" hooks being enhanced or secure this is not the case in areas outside of Yosemite. If the ranter thinks that any "fairly" experience aid climber can do hard hook moves; then i challenge him to try some A3 or A4 hook pitches in say the black canon. I think that he will quickly discover the challenge.
Basically aid climbing is a necessary evil, and if you don't want to aid climb and cont free 5.13 then your kinda screwed if your going to do a bunch of grade VI climbs (there are some exceptions however).


dingus


Dec 11, 2008, 9:55 AM
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You're fast but fast enough Sir!

refugee wrote:
But you stoked this thread by making Fox News-style attacks on a person who put together a pretty damn logical and compelling argument,

Ah we have a True Believer here. You put more credence to the rant than does the author it appears. Joke's on you mate.

In reply to:
and then when you got called out for being one of the fat losers who thinks aid climbing is cool because you're too weak to do anything significant, you reverted into a "hey, man, everything's relative, bro!" argument.

Nope. You're wrong. But at least you're using your OWN WORDS this time. Bravo.

In reply to:
Have you climbed A5? Have you climbed 5.13? Have you free climbed El Cap? Kalous has ... maybe you should listen to what he has to say instead of speaking from an out-dated, now totally irrelevant position.

No and I haven't retrobolted other peoples' routes either.

I did listen to what he said. He made many good points, so what? If you think aid climbing is totally irrelevant however, you may want to take peek outside the valley.

In reply to:
I know it's frustrating to watch your connection to a sport you once knew fade

I'm sure you do.

The original troll leveraged group insecurities to level the same ole tired gambit... its the same sort of guff trad climbers give the Pad People; intercene tribal jokster warfare bullshit. More akin to The Dozens than anything else really. Good fun, but not to be taken too seriously.

Its as old as the hills. So what?

In terms of hard aid being irrelevant - it is only irrelevant to those of us who aren't doing it.... who in turn are irrelevant to the aid climbers. And they are the only ones that matter.

Me, I don't like hard aid and can't really claim to have ever liked aiding much at all. Wall climbing is a big mind fuck and its terribly hard work to boot, But I'm glad I did it though and am glad I was able to rise above my fears and endure my insecurities and anxieties. When learning this sport I never imagined I'd get up those huge chunks of rock.

No I will never free climb El Cap, that much I know. But Ive had lots of fun in this sport and have taken much value from it. Aside from some gentle poking I never needed to boost my own self-worth by running down other climbing styles.

There is room for us all, on El Cap, on other big walls and through out the climbing world. I have a lot of respect for hardass climbers, regardless of styles really.

DMT


(This post was edited by dingus on Dec 11, 2008, 9:55 AM)


flamer


Dec 17, 2008, 10:24 AM
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dingus wrote:
The author retrobolted an A5 route

What bolt/climb was that?
Are you talking about adding a bolt to an anchor?
There is more to that then he retrobolted an A5 route.

josh


camhead


Dec 17, 2008, 10:42 AM
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I read Kalous's article the other day. I liked it, although his drunken youtube rant is more entertaining.

And in the article, he came straight out and said something like "once I added a bolt to a belay on an A5, whihc apparently pissed a lot of people off."

if this is what dingus keeps vaguely referring to, then big fricking deal.


dingus


Dec 17, 2008, 12:52 PM
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Look you boobs.... this dude trolled the climbing world. I trolled back. Some of you are wrapped WAY TO TIGHT for this internet gig.

If you think I give a tinkers damn about this whole wag fest you are sadly sadly mistaken.

DMT


flamer


Dec 17, 2008, 2:13 PM
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dingus wrote:
this dude trolled the climbing world. I trolled back.

"this dude" Gave his honest opinion...which was gleaned from experience at the top end of both side's.
A troll? Not, not really. Did it piss a lot of folks off? yes.
What you did is lie, to try and discredit him.
A troll?
Maybe.
A lie by DMT?
Yes.

josh


shimanilami


Dec 17, 2008, 2:48 PM
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Nah. It seemed to me that the guy had self esteem issues. He sprayed about how radical he is and how lame aid is in a transparent attempt to elevate his own (self) image.

The point he misses is that noone - at least, noone that I know - aid climbs for an ego boost. We do it because it's fun. Ratings are there to give others an idea of how difficult/dangerous a climb is so that they know what they're getting into, not so that they can post to 8a.nu and calculate their world ranking.


shimanilami


Dec 17, 2008, 2:58 PM
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And I don't believe it was a troll. There was too much passion in his words to claim that he was just baiting us. He was vested.


flamer


Dec 17, 2008, 4:39 PM
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shimanilami wrote:
Nah. It seemed to me that the guy had self esteem issues. He sprayed about how radical he is and how lame aid is in a transparent attempt to elevate his own (self) image.

The point he misses is that noone - at least, noone that I know - aid climbs for an ego boost. We do it because it's fun. Ratings are there to give others an idea of how difficult/dangerous a climb is so that they know what they're getting into, not so that they can post to 8a.nu and calculate their world ranking.

I disagree about the self esteem comment.
He is sharing his opinion on the ethic difference's, a shortsided(and closed) rating system, and the fact that aid limit's maybe pushed as far as they can go...difficulty wise.
Keep in mind you're talking about someone at the top of both free and aid climbing(well apparently not aid anymore).
Self esteem doesn't play in.

Aid climbers NOT sparying?
I got a good laugh out of that one.

josh


dingus


Dec 17, 2008, 5:44 PM
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flamer wrote:
dingus wrote:
this dude trolled the climbing world. I trolled back.

"this dude" Gave his honest opinion...which was gleaned from experience at the top end of both side's.
A troll? Not, not really.

Absolutely 100% a troll,

In reply to:
Did it piss a lot of folks off? yes.

Haha.

In reply to:
What you did is lie, to try and discredit him.
A troll?
Maybe.
A lie by DMT?
Yes.

He retrobolted someone else's route. Bottom line.

It is not a lie. He went up on a Kohl route... retrobolted it and then criticized it for mfg. danger.

That is EXACTLY what happened.


DMT

josh


dingus


Dec 17, 2008, 5:47 PM
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flamer wrote:
Aid climbers NOT sparying?
I got a good laugh out of that one.

josh

You're funny. This dude successfully leaveraged your bias that much is clear. I laugh robustly.

DMT


dingus


Dec 17, 2008, 5:50 PM
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Some of ou talk about 'aid climbers' like there is some legion of lock stepping automatons all a-doin and all a-saying the same thing.

Its the same old tribal bullshit.

DMT


flamer


Dec 17, 2008, 7:45 PM
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dingus wrote:
If you think I give a tinkers damn about this whole wag fest you are sadly sadly mistaken.

Then why do you keep posting?

And why won't you name the route that he supposedly retrobolted and where that bolt was placed?
Without proof you are just spraying.

If he put in a good bolt at a bad anchor than that's hardly changing an A5 pitch.

So DMT....do you care to back up your claims? Or are they just the lies and spray they sound like?

josh


Valarc


Dec 17, 2008, 9:45 PM
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dingus wrote:
Some of ou talk about 'aid climbers' like there is some legion of lock stepping automatons all a-doin and all a-saying the same thing.
And the trad climbers act the same way towards sport climbers, and sport climbers act the same way towards boulderers. And you can't exactly blame people - some of the loudest, most obnoxious old-school climbers are also the most revered, and those are the ones spraying on and on about "our way is the only way". When the 'legends' within a group work so hard to create a hive mind (where they happen to be the 'queens') can you really blame folks for forming broad generalizations?


Valarc


Dec 17, 2008, 9:49 PM
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flamer wrote:
And why won't you name the route that he supposedly retrobolted and where that bolt was placed?
Without proof you are just spraying.

You're arguing semantics. By the strictest definition of the community's made-up word, adding bolts in any way, including at an anchor, is a retrobolt. I think you're being harsh to call DMT a liar, but I also think he's being intentionally anal with the definition to make the original rant look weaker than it might otherwise look.


i_h8_choss


Dec 17, 2008, 11:18 PM
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rocks_good_hippies_bad wrote:
Haha. Try to follow my logic:

If there's no such thing as the A5 death fall...but he needed to retrobolt it...then...why? Two reasons:

1. Because there IS such thing as the A5 death fall
OR
2. Because he's too much of a euro-trash bolt-clipping nancy to take the big (and not so deadly) whip!

I say grab the hooks and duct tape not the bosch and bolts.



HAHAHAHAH!!! best user name ever!! oh and aid is cool.


dingus


Dec 18, 2008, 2:39 AM
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Valarc wrote:
flamer wrote:
And why won't you name the route that he supposedly retrobolted and where that bolt was placed?
Without proof you are just spraying.

You're arguing semantics. By the strictest definition of the community's made-up word, adding bolts in any way, including at an anchor, is a retrobolt. I think you're being harsh to call DMT a liar, but I also think he's being intentionally anal with the definition to make the original rant look weaker than it might otherwise look.

Oh MY ! Definitions! This must be the internet.

I don't see a problem with those who fancy to pursue hard aid. Not one bit. Do they ALL SPRAY about how lame everyone else is? Hahahahahahaha!

I don't have a problem with those who pursue hard trad, (so long as they aren't retrobolting other peoples' routes without permission). I don't have a problem with easy trad either. Nor sport. Nor bouldering (all though I can't really boulder anymore)

Proof? Jesus christ watch his drinken rant video. Its concluded with the ever popular 'you don't have to clip it,'

Heros? There ain't a climber, living nor dead, that is a hero by virtue of climbing. That is laughable.

DMT


moof


Dec 20, 2008, 10:04 AM
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God, people still read Rap and Chisel?

Shut up and go climb.


doktor_g


Jan 29, 2009, 8:59 AM
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Well, I haven't read that trashy mag in a while... but I have seen some Colorado hardman poo poo the Valley and Aid climbing.

I only have few questions regarding ethics:

1. Was he the original route author?
2. Did he get permission from the route author for the retrobolting?

If the answer to both of those questions is no, I think his 'ethical' foundation from which to poo poo someone else's style or grade (ie A5) is and will continue to be... shakey.

PS: Having poor pro (ie a rivet) should not preclude someone from freeing a line. If he thinks that it needs to be replaced because it has become unusable for the original style (ie aid) then it needs to be replaced, and I think could be without permission.

When would it be OK to retrobolt a crack that's traditionally been freed but has a run-out blank section? You'd be rightfully waylayed if you retrobolted the blank section without permission from the author. Same here IMHO.

He's effectively dumbing down the grade by improving the pro... if that is what happened.

g


kristoffer


Jan 29, 2009, 4:03 PM
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So how was this pitch A5 if it had a rivet.. Any drilling or enhancing automatically knocked that pitch out of ever being classified as a true new wave A5 pitch...

Screw it.. Aid climbers should not trip out over people freeing old school aid lines.. Think of it as motivation and an incentive to step up your skills and nerve in the aiders and put up sicker routes that cant quite be free climbed yet.. Both sides of the sport need to keep being pushed.. sure its not as cut and dry as I put it… there is still a massive slough of ethics involved, but don’t nuke it guys… any ways that why we now have the new wave aid ratings. Things just gotta be pushed.

that’s my 2 cents.
cheers- the zephyr


theguy


Jan 29, 2009, 5:24 PM
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Ooh, can I play?

jeremy11 wrote:
I would love to see aid difficulty get pushed, perhaps even cutting edge routes were multiple falls are taken in order to figure out the move.

It's been done; not everyone as enthusiastic as you.

dingus wrote:
aid climbers ...don't seem to suffer this need for consistency and a vanilla world where all rules are the same and everyone plays the same fucking game

Some seem to, but then maybe you don't know them personally; that inconsistent world cuts both ways...

[edited for precision]


(This post was edited by theguy on Jan 29, 2009, 5:30 PM)


dingus


Jan 30, 2009, 6:41 AM
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Pretty funny, citing wings of steel. I'm not touching that steaming pile with a 20' pole.

But suffice it to say all the participants, all of them, are well advanced middle aged men, balding and what have you.

Kohl is getting up there too, but that isn't really the point is it?

This desperate need for conformity and consistency has its roots in one thing - spray and ego; determining pack position.

The entire argument of the original author, in the video certainly, was based upon this need, and therefore rendered lame as cat piss.

The whole thing is cat piss.

DMT


Gmburns2000


Jan 30, 2009, 8:14 AM
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dingus wrote:
Pretty funny, citing wings of steel. I'm not touching that steaming pile with a 20' pole.

But suffice it to say all the participants, all of them, are well advanced middle aged men, balding and what have you.

Kohl is getting up there too, but that isn't really the point is it?

This desperate need for conformity and consistency has its roots in one thing - spray and ego; determining pack position.

The entire argument of the original author, in the video certainly, was based upon this need, and therefore rendered lame as cat piss.

The whole thing is cat piss.

DMT

Huh, maybe that's why he changed the bolt.


chris


Jan 30, 2009, 9:11 AM
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Without bothering to read all 5+ pages of carefully thought out opinions and drunk ramblings, I do find it interesting that we, as a group:

1. Get really, Really, REALLY upset when someone aids a climb that was originally done free - especially when the aid involves nailing. In fact, this is so unacceptable that I can't think of an example of it taking place, though there are several examples of aid climbs that pounded their way through routes that had been attempted, but not finished, free.

2. It is still acceptable to continue aid climbing - clean or hammered - even though a route has been freed. While I can understand continuing to climb aid routes using clean techniques, it still makes me scratch my head. We seem to celebrate the rock and alpine climbers who climb routes with minimal impact (unless we're Russian), but we allow others the freedom to continue climbing a route in what may be argued a "lesser" style.

Since observation #2 is most commonly seen in the heavily climbed sacred grounds of Zion, Yosemite, and others, its not a big enough issue for me to loose a lot of sleep over. But I wonder what I would do if I found out that someone had hammered his way up one of the multi-pitch routes I've established in the Eastern Sierra.

Hmmm...


dingus


Jan 30, 2009, 10:22 AM
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chris wrote:
2. It is still acceptable to continue aid climbing - clean or hammered - even though a route has been freed.

No I don't believe this is accepted, in total, certainly not in Yosemite. While it may happen from time to time it is generally considered bad form round here to nail freed routes.

Now HOW the route got freed may factor into subsequent discussions.

DMT


Gmburns2000


Jan 30, 2009, 10:31 AM
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chris wrote:
Without bothering to read all 5+ pages of carefully thought out opinions and drunk ramblings, I do find it interesting that we, as a group:

1. Get really, Really, REALLY upset when someone aids a climb that was originally done free - especially when the aid involves nailing. In fact, this is so unacceptable that I can't think of an example of it taking place, though there are several examples of aid climbs that pounded their way through routes that had been attempted, but not finished, free.

2. It is still acceptable to continue aid climbing - clean or hammered - even though a route has been freed. While I can understand continuing to climb aid routes using clean techniques, it still makes me scratch my head. We seem to celebrate the rock and alpine climbers who climb routes with minimal impact (unless we're Russian), but we allow others the freedom to continue climbing a route in what may be argued a "lesser" style.

Since observation #2 is most commonly seen in the heavily climbed sacred grounds of Zion, Yosemite, and others, its not a big enough issue for me to loose a lot of sleep over. But I wonder what I would do if I found out that someone had hammered his way up one of the multi-pitch routes I've established in the Eastern Sierra.

Hmmm...

I assume that with #1 you are talking about significant climbs, because I know people who aid stuff just to practice aiding (or to learn or teach, etc). Sometimes these are on routes that are generally climbed free. Maybe #1 needs to be broken down even further into asking why a particular style is chosen, not just if it should be. Because let's face it, practicing aid on a free route is still aid-climbing the route.

As for #2, it seems to me that if we stopped folks from aiding routes that have since gone free that many of those routes would become off limits to a large swath of the climbing population. How many times has the Nose been freed? Would we really prohibit so many people to stop climbing it just because a handful of stellar athletes have freed it? I'm not so sure of that.


dingus


Jan 30, 2009, 11:41 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
chris wrote:
Without bothering to read all 5+ pages of carefully thought out opinions and drunk ramblings, I do find it interesting that we, as a group:

1. Get really, Really, REALLY upset when someone aids a climb that was originally done free - especially when the aid involves nailing. In fact, this is so unacceptable that I can't think of an example of it taking place, though there are several examples of aid climbs that pounded their way through routes that had been attempted, but not finished, free.

2. It is still acceptable to continue aid climbing - clean or hammered - even though a route has been freed. While I can understand continuing to climb aid routes using clean techniques, it still makes me scratch my head. We seem to celebrate the rock and alpine climbers who climb routes with minimal impact (unless we're Russian), but we allow others the freedom to continue climbing a route in what may be argued a "lesser" style.

Since observation #2 is most commonly seen in the heavily climbed sacred grounds of Zion, Yosemite, and others, its not a big enough issue for me to loose a lot of sleep over. But I wonder what I would do if I found out that someone had hammered his way up one of the multi-pitch routes I've established in the Eastern Sierra.

Hmmm...

I assume that with #1 you are talking about significant climbs, because I know people who aid stuff just to practice aiding (or to learn or teach, etc). Sometimes these are on routes that are generally climbed free. Maybe #1 needs to be broken down even further into asking why a particular style is chosen, not just if it should be. Because let's face it, practicing aid on a free route is still aid-climbing the route.

As for #2, it seems to me that if we stopped folks from aiding routes that have since gone free that many of those routes would become off limits to a large swath of the climbing population. How many times has the Nose been freed? Would we really prohibit so many people to stop climbing it just because a handful of stellar athletes have freed it? I'm not so sure of that.

Point of order - its perfectly acceptable, imo and practice on the cliffs in Yosemite seems to reinforce this opinion, that CLEAN AID on freed routes is perfectly A-OK, unless you're hogging a highly prized free route on a busy day (different topic).

Its NAILING routes that have gone free, that except for a few anti-social folk, is not acceptable.

The ethics involved are more about rock and route preservation (and degrading due to iornmongery) and less to do with some spirtual bullshit that places free higher in the pecking order than aid.

Cheers
DMT


Gmburns2000


Jan 30, 2009, 1:38 PM
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dingus wrote:
Gmburns2000 wrote:
chris wrote:
Without bothering to read all 5+ pages of carefully thought out opinions and drunk ramblings, I do find it interesting that we, as a group:

1. Get really, Really, REALLY upset when someone aids a climb that was originally done free - especially when the aid involves nailing. In fact, this is so unacceptable that I can't think of an example of it taking place, though there are several examples of aid climbs that pounded their way through routes that had been attempted, but not finished, free.

2. It is still acceptable to continue aid climbing - clean or hammered - even though a route has been freed. While I can understand continuing to climb aid routes using clean techniques, it still makes me scratch my head. We seem to celebrate the rock and alpine climbers who climb routes with minimal impact (unless we're Russian), but we allow others the freedom to continue climbing a route in what may be argued a "lesser" style.

Since observation #2 is most commonly seen in the heavily climbed sacred grounds of Zion, Yosemite, and others, its not a big enough issue for me to loose a lot of sleep over. But I wonder what I would do if I found out that someone had hammered his way up one of the multi-pitch routes I've established in the Eastern Sierra.

Hmmm...

I assume that with #1 you are talking about significant climbs, because I know people who aid stuff just to practice aiding (or to learn or teach, etc). Sometimes these are on routes that are generally climbed free. Maybe #1 needs to be broken down even further into asking why a particular style is chosen, not just if it should be. Because let's face it, practicing aid on a free route is still aid-climbing the route.

As for #2, it seems to me that if we stopped folks from aiding routes that have since gone free that many of those routes would become off limits to a large swath of the climbing population. How many times has the Nose been freed? Would we really prohibit so many people to stop climbing it just because a handful of stellar athletes have freed it? I'm not so sure of that.

Point of order - its perfectly acceptable, imo and practice on the cliffs in Yosemite seems to reinforce this opinion, that CLEAN AID on freed routes is perfectly A-OK, unless you're hogging a highly prized free route on a busy day (different topic).

Its NAILING routes that have gone free, that except for a few anti-social folk, is not acceptable.

The ethics involved are more about rock and route preservation (and degrading due to iornmongery) and less to do with some spirtual bullshit that places free higher in the pecking order than aid.

Cheers
DMT

I hear that. I only have one Yos trip under my belt (and no big walls), but in one conversation I had with some folks about Zodiac it seemed that some people clean aid and some still hammer.

Naturally, the clean aid folks were brow beating the hammer folks, but there were enough folks talking about hammering that it seemed almost normal.

Is it true that people still hammer Zodiac on a regular basis? I'm not asking if they should, but if they actually do. And if so, how far out of order is that considering it is done often?


ptlong


Jan 30, 2009, 2:41 PM
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Gmburns, people do nail some on Zodiac. Dingus left out some of the subtle aspects. Gray areas include routes that have gone clean but require greater skill, greater risk, and/or key pieces of fixed protection to do so. A standard example is the Shield. It's been climbed hammerless, but pretty much everybody nails some.

Nobody is going to get crucified if they ping in an occasional sawed angle on Zodiac. They would if they nailed on the Nose where it's dead easy to use cams and nuts. The idea is to make a real effort to avoid nailing. Spending money on tools like hybrid aliens and offsets makes it easier.


Gmburns2000


Jan 30, 2009, 7:13 PM
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Thanks. I guess that is what I was trying to get at - it isn't all black and white. I'm no expert on the subject by far, but it seemed that while there are standards, the standards have not been not applied universally. I'm getting the sense that maybe standards in general (across all climbing styles) apply less to the mid-range climbers and more the the truly talented and / or skilled. Of course, even that isn't black and white, but there does seem to be a "he / she should've known better" attitude that is applied to some folks.


justsendingits


Mar 2, 2009, 4:50 PM
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when I was in NAM we did FA's in the purest of style, we started naked from the south china sea, and hiked to Cambodia gathering only the most organic natural tools for drilling. A jaw bone from the endangered albino mudskipper for the drill, water smoothed rocks for the hammer, and hooves from water buffalo to make glue to hold the bolts in. This was the Cambodian climbing ethic that we adhered to and still do. Now the new generation is using russian adjustable friction hitches for double dyno's, and they twitter on the A-4+R pitches, which only dumb down the route. some have even used cam shackles and snap links on the 4th pitch. Next thing you know they will be melting lead heads into the 5.8 crack with a propane Jewelers torch.
You new guys need to show some respect and cowboy up!


Gmburns2000


Mar 3, 2009, 6:24 AM
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justsendingits wrote:
when I was in NAM we did FA's in the purest of style, we started naked from the south china sea, and hiked to Cambodia gathering only the most organic natural tools for drilling. A jaw bone from the endangered albino mudskipper for the drill, water smoothed rocks for the hammer, and hooves from water buffalo to make glue to hold the bolts in. This was the Cambodian climbing ethic that we adhered to and still do. Now the new generation is using russian adjustable friction hitches for double dyno's, and they twitter on the A-4+R pitches, which only dumb down the route. some have even used cam shackles and snap links on the 4th pitch. Next thing you know they will be melting lead heads into the 5.8 crack with a propane Jewelers torch.
You new guys need to show some respect and cowboy up!

you forgot the part about walking ten miles home in four feet of snow. I know you said vietnam, but still, that obstacle is a necessity if you want to make your complaint valid. Tongue


Lazlo


Mar 3, 2009, 7:53 AM
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I fixed a pin in a free route once.


justsendingits


Mar 3, 2009, 9:53 AM
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No but seriously, I have put in plenty of bolts in Yosemite and other areas. I have not read the article so I can't comment on that one. I will say this though, Erik Kohl does not put up public service routes, keeping the character of the route is important to a lot of us who climb in the ditch. With that said some of the routes in the valley were put up by climbers like charlie porter and others who had little money at the time, dowels,crappy rivets and what not were used because they were cheap, with no thought of putting up a route for the public. My guess is that Porter thought very few would ever climb routes like t-trip 30+ years later.
He used the crappy rivets just to move up, many were poorly placed, which happens sometimes when you solo and you get super worked.
When I replace an unsafe rivet I prefer to replace with 3/8 If I am going to go through the effort of replacing a bolt, it might as well be a real good one that is going to last, but lately I have been using 1/4 rivets to replace lead rivets just because I can hand drill them sooo much faster. But I don't trip to much when other climbers give me a hard time about replacing 1/4 with 3/8 While I think it is super important to keep the character of the route, replacing a 1/4 with a 3/8 doesn't change the character, at least to me it don't. I mean I know analogy's are BS but a lot of the climbers who put up these FA's are llike a father who creates a child and never comes back to take care of that child. And while I think it important to contact the FA before re -bolting, I don't HAVE to get approval from them to swap out an 1/4 for an 3/8
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but a lot of you have never even done a big wall, not that I don't think you have a great imagination, but it's hard for you to fully understand what it takes and more important what you go through emotionally when you climb a big wall, or better yet solo something like half dome, and I don't mean the reg. route.
But the sure don't stop a lot of you from railing on someone about their style of big wqll climbing or hating on aid in general.
I have more respect for the climbers who go out and chop my bolts than you monday morning quarterbacks here on RC. at least they are out doing what they believe in and not spraying online. Get out there and climb, either place a bolt or chop one, otherwise you are not even a blip on the radar screen as far as impact on Yosemite or wherever you climb.


(This post was edited by justsendingits on Mar 3, 2009, 9:58 AM)


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